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Is the community satisfied by Gyre


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So it’s been a couple of weeks, plenty of time for playtesting and I really want to know where the community stands on Gyre. 
 

 

I personally find her weaker/ less enjoyable than Yareli. The crit boost with Yareli is somehow more reliable than Gyre’s.

I think Merulina outperforms cathode grace. Not because of the gimmick of getting kills to extend its duration but because Merulina provides much more survivability. As Gyre is supposed to spam abilities to stay alive you could argue her energy regen skill is her survivability skill. As she is dead without energy.  
To Gyre’s credit, coil horizon performs as well as Riptide. (Mostly due to Riptide being underpowered). However Riptide isn’t responsible for the lion’s share of Yareli’s survivability. 
Rotorswell sucks. It doesn’t deal enough damage. It doesn’t Cc. I mean it does Cc but not consistently enough to be actual CC.  Easily outshined by aquablades which deals real damage and about as much CC as rotorswell. With the added benefit of true damage. 
Arc Sphere is probably one of Gyre’s better abilities. The initial damage it can do stacked up is fine. But it’s duration effect is booty. Why doesn’t each lightening bolt in Arc Sphere do as much damage as the initial impact. The CC will still get you shot and killed so why are we afraid of doing damage with a frame who has less survivability than Saryn? Especially given the limited range of an arc sphere and the inconsistent electricity zaps.  I mean Sea snares does poop damage over time but at least it holds enemies in place consistently.
 

There is an argument to be made that rotorswell preforms better when you use it with the intention of focusing on weapon damage. But then, Mirage and Chroma curbstop Gyre in that field. For me, Gyre feels like hot trash that I happened to invest 7 formas in before she was fixed. And the lack of attention to her makes me feel like DE just releases crap knowing players will get because it’s new with no regard for replay value. But maybe I’m being too harsh. ( I did a few days a playtesting after the fix and have only logged in twice since. I come back for new warframes.) If they’re bad then the game has failed me personally. Though one might argue if the game is named WARFRAME  maybe just maybe the focus should be on making each warframe good before moving on to things that aren’t your titular feature. 

Edited by (PSN)Tazzilla88
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Gyres primary problem to me is her survivability. She has paper armor and no way to really defend herself other than electric proc stuns so the only way to keep her alive in harder stuff like the steel path is going to be shield gate cheesing. 

As for her abilities at least i find them fine overall though you need effective armor strip against very high level enemies.

Passive: Makes her abilities crit. Perfectly fine here.
Arcsphere: Does damage and spits out electric procs for more crits. Could be longer duration for sure, but damage wise it works decently. 
Coil Horizon: Sucks enemies into a neat ball for you to easily nuke with your guns. Optionally hit with unairu armor strip which makes everything melt.
Cathode Grace: Gives crit to your guns and abilities along with energy recharge. Is easy to keep up, what's not to like?
Rotorswell: Movement speed buff on top of chain lightning from hell on crits. The chain lightning is basically free damage, though it does fall off at higher levels. Much weaker now after they fixed the internal cooldown on the chain lightning, but again free damage to your guns.

Overall i think she's pretty good but lacks survivability and scaling for steel path stuff without shield gate cheesing and continuous armor stripping. Had corrosive still been as good as it used to be she would have been very good in anything she could survive. But alas, its been nerfed so only viral/slash matters against heavily armored enemies today. She also pretty much requires a high crit weapon to function well, the amprex is especially good as it can also spew out a ton of electric procs for more ability damage.

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Gyre had two possible builds.

1st - Duration based and focused on her 3 and 4.   Spamming crits and stunning/damaging enemies

2nd - Eff/Strength based and focused on her 1 and 2 to pull and zap.  (doesnt really need range, but definately dont debuff range lol)

I am drawn to her 2nd build (like a magnet heh).   Didnt try taking her into hard content.  Im pretty sure I got adaptation but no huge amount of shields and no way to heal from abilities.    Gloom or some shield ability could be good to help this build...  

( I did not know this till Gyre apparently..... but augur mod set can grant OVERSHIELDS?  lol.   I've used one or two augur mods forever and never freaking noticed.   Still I dont use enough of them to rely on for survival....  )

I dont know how her abilities scale up versus tougher enemies but I will say I am let down by her 1st ability damage wise.   Even if you clump a large group of enemies the damage from 1st ability seems like nothing.   The rate it zaps people is excruciatingly slow.    Its more of a lame crowd control than a damage dealer.   The pull is also kind of annoying because it knocks people down making it hard to see if enemies are dead or not,  pins them to the floor taking them out of the height you normally aim your gun at.   (You would think I would use alternox alt fire alot with 1-2 but I dont... ).   Two can be hard to use in a full squad, hard to initiate the pull in the right spots sometimes because it bounces off people.

----------

But I think she is a fun frame.   I'd use her over Yareli any day.   I also really like Caliban.   That guy is super fun.  

Xaku , Grendel, Nekros are three frames I really like but are in bad places.  Those would be my priority fixs.  

Also garuda was given the awesome ability of invincibility during ability casts.  Holy hell I need that on other frames ASAP.   Nekros desocrate for example takes forever to cast and after it gets shut off by one of the bazillion nullifiers it becomes insanely easy for Nekros to get killed trying to recast it.  I guess people will say " I use Rolling guard blah blah blah".      Well DE is schitzo and needs to only have ONE method.   You either make garuda use rolling guard or you give invinc to all frames during casting.  

 

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26 minutes ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Xaku , Grendel, Nekros are three frames I really like but are in bad places.  Those would be my priority fixs. 

Gyre needs way more help than Xaku.  She clears the star chart just fine, but lacks meaningful scaling.  Xaku, on the other hand, is an infinitely scaling aimbot nuking god with complete armor/shield strip.  They just take a very specific build to reach that (high strength and max max max range).  Grendel is a little energy hungry, but he's honestly a ton of fun to use and will always be relevant against Corpus.  Yeah, Nekros needs help.  But his 3 gives him relevance in farming.  Gyre is just another mediocre DPS, a glass cannon with no cannon once you get past sortie level.  She looks gorgeous and I love her sound direction, but I don't see myself using her much in her current state.

 

I know that our roster is getting increasingly bloated.  But I think with proper care, every frame can be relevant and useful in a wide range of content.  Gyre needs a bit of work to reach that.

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4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

I personally find her less enjoyable than Yareli.

It's your opinion.

For me Yareli is very boring. Cast 3rd, maybe proc viral/heat and just move around melting enemies (not sure about Eximus nowadays). I couldn't bother to cast other stuffs than Aquablades (with Roar).

On other hand Gyre is better. She isn't "insta kill machine" so you have to work a little. My single target (more or less) Iggib Fengd (afair) Kuva Chakhurr can kill more enemies. CC enemies makes more sense.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

I personally find her weaker than Yareli. The crit boost with Yareli is somehow more reliable than Gyre’s.

Her Crit boost is just:

- for her 4th to do arcs

- for part of weapons that has already good crit

It's much weaker than Yareli (200%) and Zephyr (150%). At 100% chance you get 100% crit chance.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

I think Merulina outperforms cathode grace. Not because of the gimmick of getting kills to extend its duration but because Merulina provides much more survivability

Yeah Merul*slam into wall* Merulina gives you mu*slams into wall*.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

As Gyre is supposed to spam abilities to stay alive you could argue her energy regen skill is her survivability skill. As she is dead without energy.  

She is good at energy economy. Her 1-2 have low energy cost. Her 3rd costs nothing if you kill enemies. Her 4th might need little tuning (little more duration) but it's not bad.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

To Gyre’s credit, coil horizon performs as well as Riptide. (Mostly due to Riptide being underpowered). However Riptide isn’t responsible for the lion’s share of Yareli’s survivability. 

With Coil horizon you can suck enemies to certain position (even in the air) not scatter like with Riptide.

They both have small damage. It's understandable with Coil horizon but Riptide is just "meh".

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Rotorswell sucks. It doesn’t deal enough damage. It doesn’t Cc. I mean it does Cc but not consistently enough to be actual CC.  Easily outshined by aquablades which deals real damage and about as much CC as rotorswell. With the added benefit of true damage. 

True damage is good but slow. It works only for Grineers. Corppus has nullies. Infested has damage reduction & status immunity, hence no true damage. I don't know how it performs on Corpus but for Infested it's bad. I deal very little damage when Ancients appear. Not sure how it works as I couldn't reproduce it in the simulacrum (155level: 19 boiler + 1 Ancient healer).

However it deals a lot of damage. At 155% strength, around 3x 1st, 3rd & 4th abilities and it kills 155 level heavy gunner quickly. Add viral/heat for even more. I haven't had Coil horizon in Simulacrum so I used Khora's Ensnare. 1st on their own doesn't deal too much damage (like ~155 afair). And this is without any Roar massive Strengthon Gyre. Just your 1-2 forma build.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Especially given the limited range of an arc sphere and the inconsistent electricity zaps.  I mean Sea snares does poop damage over time but at least it holds enemies in place consistently.

I think Arc sphere is more for "additional" damage. It's hard to compare both.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

There is an argument to be made that rotorswell preforms better when you use it with the intention of focusing on weapon damage. But then, Mirage and Chroma curbstop Gyre in that field.

To be honest she is low level weapon user. You get crit boost from 3rd but it's for already good weapon. As you meantioned other may perform better. I find her mostly ability user. "Proc crit" (weapon or ability), proc viral/heat and that's it.

 

-------------------

I'm satisfied. Gyre might not be the best (her crit affects only big-crit weapons, you cannot throw coil horizon as your 1st) but she feels like something made to be played. She is "whole". She doesn't have (almost) random abilities with some weird requirements like last frames:

- Merulina cannot use melees, no rolls (that's not roll)

- Caliban cannot use 4th inside 1st (Razor gyre)

- Sevagoth needs full meter, 1st or 2nd ability doesn't do too much so you spam both

 

She might be not my favorite frame but she is very solid frame. That's good that they starts to make "good enough" frames. After last 3 frames (Yareli, Sevagoth & Caliban) I almost felt like not buying/grinding another frame.

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It’s not really a matter of whether or not we’re satisfied with a frame anymore.

DE has proven this past year that unless a newly released frame gets absolutely dunked on by the community they are perfectly fine just not doing anything to improve them. Regardless of the actual quality of the frame.

And Gyre got a lot of praise before they nerfed her. So that’s good enough for them to abandon her completely and move onto the next frame.

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36 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

DE has proven this past year that unless a newly released frame gets absolutely dunked on by the community they are perfectly fine just not doing anything to improve them. Regardless of the actual quality of the frame.

And even then their improvements have no guarantee of going far enough.  Yeah, Yareli got some changes.  But she's still dumpster-tier and always will be so long as Merulina remains as is.  But DE has released an augment for Yareli, and she's been out for almost a year now, so I really don't see her getting any changes until a deluxe skin or prime release (and that's certainly not a guarantee either).

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1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

And even then their improvements have no guarantee of going far enough.  Yeah, Yareli got some changes.  But she's still dumpster-tier and always will be so long as Merulina remains as is.  But DE has released an augment for Yareli, and she's been out for almost a year now, so I really don't see her getting any changes until a deluxe skin or prime release (and that's certainly not a guarantee either).

Yeah, the entire Yareli situation was literally,

Community: She needs synergies or more mechanics. Poorly scaling damage and CC is not enough.

DE: So you want number increases across the board. Got it.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yeah, the entire Yareli situation was literally,

Community: She needs synergies or more mechanics. Poorly scaling damage and CC is not enough.

DE: So you want number increases across the board. Got it.

I feel like "fixing" Yareli were too much for them. Sure, they could add/change few more things (easy to change) but in my opinion all abilities have bugs or missing feature.

They have done what's easiest and most needed. They increased stats (e.g. damage or radius) and added missing movement ("merulina's dash). Some stats might be "not good enough" but I still could be able to melt Grineers with Aquablades (with help). They have even added Aquablade augment recently (4 month ago)I would like to get roll instead of dash ("merulina's dash) but some people like it.

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28 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I didn’t know making good content was just too much for DE.

It's not about making good content but making it in time. They had already new stuffs planned so they cannot afford too much time on fixing Yareli.

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her passive being capped at 300% crit chance is a good example of why redcrits don't necessarily mean good damage. what's weird though is that, given how electric procs and her passive work, the stacking crit mechanic and in turn the cap doesn't matter for lower level enemies since they just die from whatever, but the higher level enemies would be tanky enough for the stacking mechanic to actually work but again it's capped too low so it's a wasted concept for allowing a frame to have viable ability damage at any level.

in the end i think gyre was supposed to be a glass cannon, castor version of harrow but she just ended up being another glass cc frame. which is also weird since i thought cc was recently shunned.

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10 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not about making good content but making it in time. They had already new stuffs planned so they cannot afford too much time on fixing Yareli.

If they can’t afford to make content good then they shouldn’t be making it at all.

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Dunno, I never finished farming her parts. Once I maxed out Zariman I just stopped. Maybe if they update that syndicate I'll go back and try again, but right now she doesn't seem worth bothering to continue

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, quxier said:

It's your opinion. 

For me Yareli is very boring. Cast 3rd, maybe proc viral/heat and just move around melting enemies (not sure about Eximus nowadays). I couldn't bother to cast other stuffs than Aquablades (with Roar).

On other hand Gyre is better. She isn't "insta kill machine" so you have to work a little. My single target (more or less) Iggib Fengd (afair) Kuva Chakhurr can kill more enemies. CC enemies makes more sense.

Her Crit boost is just:

- for her 4th to do arcs

- for part of weapons that has already good crit

It's much weaker than Yareli (200%) and Zephyr (150%). At 100% chance you get 100% crit chance.

Yeah Merul*slam into wall* Merulina gives you mu*slams into wall*.

She is good at energy economy. Her 1-2 have low energy cost. Her 3rd costs nothing if you kill enemies. Her 4th might need little tuning (little more duration) but it's not bad.

With Coil horizon you can suck enemies to certain position (even in the air) not scatter like with Riptide.

They both have small damage. It's understandable with Coil horizon but Riptide is just "meh".

True damage is good but slow. It works only for Grineers. Corppus has nullies. Infested has damage reduction & status immunity, hence no true damage. I don't know how it performs on Corpus but for Infested it's bad. I deal very little damage when Ancients appear. Not sure how it works as I couldn't reproduce it in the simulacrum (155level: 19 boiler + 1 Ancient healer).

However it deals a lot of damage. At 155% strength, around 3x 1st, 3rd & 4th abilities and it kills 155 level heavy gunner quickly. Add viral/heat for even more. I haven't had Coil horizon in Simulacrum so I used Khora's Ensnare. 1st on their own doesn't deal too much damage (like ~155 afair). And this is without any Roar massive Strengthon Gyre. Just your 1-2 forma build.

I think Arc sphere is more for "additional" damage. It's hard to compare both.

To be honest she is low level weapon user. You get crit boost from 3rd but it's for already good weapon. As you meantioned other may perform better. I find her mostly ability user. "Proc crit" (weapon or ability), proc viral/heat and that's it.

 

-------------------

I'm satisfied. Gyre might not be the best (her crit affects only big-crit weapons, you cannot throw coil horizon as your 1st) but she feels like something made to be played. She is "whole". She doesn't have (almost) random abilities with some weird requirements like last frames:

- Merulina cannot use melees, no rolls (that's not roll)

- Caliban cannot use 4th inside 1st (Razor gyre)

- Sevagoth needs full meter, 1st or 2nd ability doesn't do too much so you spam both

 

She might be not my favorite frame but she is very solid frame. That's good that they starts to make "good enough" frames. After last 3 frames (Yareli, Sevagoth & Caliban) I almost felt like not buying/grinding another frame.

Well yes it is my opinion. Which is why I use the words I feel…

If you are subsuming on Yareli you are probably playing her wrong considering her kit isn’t designed to work with subsumes. Taking off her 4 drastically reduces her aquablades effectiveness and taking off her one makes her one dimensional. Taking off her 2 leads the question of why are you even playing Yareli? 
 

Also, if you practice using Merulina in tilesets you can speed run with her just fine and beat out squad mates. I’ve gone toe to toe with Titania and gauss. But it definitely is a skill to acquire outside of ordinary movement skill set. 
 

in terms of Gyre’s efficiency, something about that seems off. And it’s simple enough you would in theory be casting her 2 at 50 energy roughly every 5- 10 seconds to keep meaningful CC. And following up with her one,  25 energy after each.  Which leads you to spending  easily 75 energy per rotation but the most likely scenario is that you throw out multiple instances of her 1 bringing the energy cost around 125 over 10 seconds without factoring the maintence of Rotorswell. For damage that is mediocre. If the majority of enemies in game are armored and every faction possesses armored units, a frame needs to be able to deal with it on its own with out crippling a player to a specific school.  Yareli doesn’t do that. And her energy cost is much lower. 125 energy will cast her 2 and her 3 which will last for almost a minute. 

Aquablades isn’t nullified unless Yareli herself goes into the nullify bubble as opposed to gyres abilities that disappear when in contact with nullies. Also true damage is slow, isn’t actually a fair argument for the way to talk about aquablades as it scales to one shot territory against armored and unarmored targets and is primed by using it.  Honestly the simulacrum is only good for crunching hard numbers, it doesn’t work like a sandbox version of the game. My aquablades has 93 seconds active which deletes steel path corpus and infested in one shot and makes quick work of Acolytes. 

A lot of damage compared to what? Certainly not an actual damage dealing frame which she should clearly be.

 

it’s not really that hard to compare sea snares and arcsphere they serve they same functions. One does more damage and less Cc the other vice versa. But the former doesn’t do so much more damage than it makes up for the lack of consistent CC on a frame that is paper thin and shoehorns players into Unairu for a modicum of survivability. 
 

 

a low level weapon frame from the highest leveled planet in the game. Makes sense. 
 

I do get your qualms about other frames but they are built to be played with niche play styles. Which is valid. The problem is Gyre takes on a general play style and falls behind frames years older at the thing she is supposed to excel at. 

Edited by (PSN)Tazzilla88
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Am 5.6.2022 um 10:58 schrieb (PSN)Tazzilla88:

So it’s been a couple of weeks, plenty of time for playtesting and I really want to know where the community stands on Gyre. 
 

 

I personally find her weaker/ less enjoyable than Yareli. The crit boost with Yareli is somehow more reliable than Gyre’s.

I think Merulina outperforms cathode grace. Not because of the gimmick of getting kills to extend its duration but because Merulina provides much more survivability. As Gyre is supposed to spam abilities to stay alive you could argue her energy regen skill is her survivability skill. As she is dead without energy.  
To Gyre’s credit, coil horizon performs as well as Riptide. (Mostly due to Riptide being underpowered). However Riptide isn’t responsible for the lion’s share of Yareli’s survivability. 
Rotorswell sucks. It doesn’t deal enough damage. It doesn’t Cc. I mean it does Cc but not consistently enough to be actual CC.  Easily outshined by aquablades which deals real damage and about as much CC as rotorswell. With the added benefit of true damage. 
Arc Sphere is probably one of Gyre’s better abilities. The initial damage it can do stacked up is fine. But it’s duration effect is booty. Why doesn’t each lightening bolt in Arc Sphere do as much damage as the initial impact. The CC will still get you shot and killed so why are we afraid of doing damage with a frame who has less survivability than Saryn? Especially given the limited range of an arc sphere and the inconsistent electricity zaps.  I mean Sea snares does poop damage over time but at least it holds enemies in place consistently.
 

There is an argument to be made that rotorswell preforms better when you use it with the intention of focusing on weapon damage. But then, Mirage and Chroma curbstop Gyre in that field. For me, Gyre feels like hot trash that I happened to invest 7 formas in before she was fixed. And the lack of attention to her makes me feel like DE just releases crap knowing players will get because it’s new with no regard for replay value. But maybe I’m being too harsh. ( I did a few days a playtesting after the fix and have only logged in twice since. I come back for new warframes.) If they’re bad then the game has failed me personally. Though one might argue if the game is named WARFRAME  maybe just maybe the focus should be on making each warframe good before moving on to things that aren’t your titular feature. 

no?
what's the point of a warframe that tips over like a mosquito on sp?
the same with harrow and many other warframes. and I will certainly not install 3-er umbra set.

I don't know what the designers were thinking.

at wisp with low armor is fine. here I have support with low armor. but with double health and can quickly cover and heal me fully. operator is not needed.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

If they can’t afford to make content good then they shouldn’t be making it at all.

I agree with that. However that's business not some person that makes games for free for "fun". "New stuffs" sells more than fixing "old" stuffs.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

If you are subsuming on Yareli you are probably playing her wrong considering her kit isn’t designed to work with subsumes.

Sure, Merulina isn't subsume-friendly but you can put some abilities before casting Merulina. On other hand rest of kit is your average level of synergy:

- some abilities won't work: for example Grendel's Nourish probably won't work on Aquablades or Riptide

- some can coexist: e.g you can CC enemies & slash them with Aquablades

2 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Taking off her 4 drastically reduces her aquablades effectiveness

Riptide forces you to stand still (unless you are using Merulina afair). It scatter enemies around. Other abilities keep enemies close. I can swap to something like Khora's Ensnare to have better use of Aquablades.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

and taking off her one makes her one dimensional.

Little bit CC is nice but we have better or less bugy abilities. I personally keep it.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Taking off her 2 leads the question of why are you even playing Yareli? 

Put Roar, Viral/heat and use Aquablades to melt Grineer. I used that setup to farm boring grind -> 20 minutes of Kuva survi for Harrow.

Merulina is bad. Her 3rd & 1st makes much better abilities than Merulina.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Also, if you practice using Merulina in tilesets you can speed run with her just fine and beat out squad mates. I’ve gone toe to toe with Titania and gauss. But it definitely is a skill to acquire outside of ordinary movement skill set. 

You can but why? If you are enjoying that kind of clunky skateboard k-drive then go for it. I wanted to like it. I love games about "freestyle stuffs" (e.g. Dave Mirra freestyle bmx) but Merulina is so luck luster (5 tricks doing almost nothing) that I couldn't bother to do it.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

in terms of Gyre’s efficiency, something about that seems off. And it’s simple enough you would in theory be casting her 2 at 50 energy roughly every 5- 10 seconds to keep meaningful CC. And following up with her one,  25 energy after each.  Which leads you to spending  easily 75 energy per rotation but the most likely scenario is that you throw out multiple instances of her 1 bringing the energy cost around 125 over 10 seconds without factoring the maintence of Rotorswell. For damage that is mediocre. If the majority of enemies in game are armored and every faction possesses armored units, a frame needs to be able to deal with it on its own with out crippling a player to a specific school.

Sure, 2nd ability is weak (because she has low duration). Using something more efficient is advised, I guess. I've used Khora's Ensnare. Ensnare has 15 seconds on default.

And we are talking about level 155 heavy gunner. It would be silly if one ability could just touch enemies and they die. You cast 3rd with initial cost of 75 (at base). It's free later (you just have to kill).

Using Primed continuity (+50% duration):

  • 3x 25e every 15 second
  • 50e every 20 second
  • 100e every 30 second

That's like 325 per 1/2 minute. In that time Cathode grace should regenerate 90 energy (200% strength). That's 235 energy per 1/2 minute. Add 30% efficiency then it goes to 165 energy. You can probably go even more down reducing usage of 1st (I think it's mostly gave electric proc for 4th to proc but I need more testing).

Don't forget one important thing. This was used for killing 20x 155 level heavy gunner (maybe corrupted but I don't know if there are huge differences). For normal, lower level I could just use 4th + 3rd and my gun/melee.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Yareli doesn’t do that. And her energy cost is much lower. 125 energy will cast her 2 and her 3 which will last for almost a minute. 

I'm using Roar instead of Merulina but the cost is "similar". Of course Aquablades is strong. IMHO it's broken (too powerful) for certain content (Grineer). I've used to do 20 kuva survival just using Aquablades (maybe gun to spread some love viral/heat but I don't remember). At ~~40 minute (around 100th level) I have been using Aquablades + Roar + Viral/heat and it was still very easy.

You cannot compare something so strong (for certain content) because everything would look very weak. Gyre might be not the strongest but she still can deal reasonable damage.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Aquablades isn’t nullified unless Yareli herself goes into the nullify bubble as opposed to gyres abilities that disappear when in contact with nullies.

AFAIR, only abilities disappear only when core stuffs gets touched by the Nully.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Also true damage is slow, isn’t actually a fair argument for the way to talk about aquablades as it scales to one shot territory against armored and unarmored targets and is primed by using it.

Ok, maybe I don't understand something but my Aquablades cannot one shoot anything "high level" (I don't know... something like 50+ I guess). I've put like 250% strength on her.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Honestly the simulacrum is only good for crunching hard numbers, it doesn’t work like a sandbox version of the game. My aquablades has 93 seconds active which deletes steel path corpus and infested in one shot and makes quick work of Acolytes. 

I have tested it on the field as well. It's just easier to put certain units that are stronger to test few setups.

With ~250% strength it needs help with Roar+Viral/heat to deal with ~100 level Grineers (of course weaker one dies much faster).

As for Infested I couldn't do to much damage because Ancients nullies proc (no True damage). I don't remember but I could do like 10-20 minutes survi before Aquablades stopped working.

I've not tested it against Corpus because game likes to put a lot of nullies at me. I've once counted 7 in one room.

And I'm talking about non-SP versions.

 

So I'm not sure how you can one shoot those enemies. I don't know how SP corpus/infested compares to Heavy gunners.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

A lot of damage compared to what? Certainly not an actual damage dealing frame which she should clearly be.

Both Aquablades & Gyre can kill 20x 155 Heavy gunner (corrupted maybe I don't remember).

With non-SP it deals similar damage (excluding maybe some content). Of course, as you mentioned, Aquablades is much more efficient.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

it’s not really that hard to compare sea snares and arcsphere they serve they same functions. One does more damage and less Cc the other vice versa. But the former doesn’t do so much more damage than it makes up for the lack of consistent CC on a frame that is paper thin and shoehorns players into Unairu for a modicum of survivability. 

It servers another purposes.

Arcsphere may indeed CC enemies but they (I think) are used to proc electric status for 4th.

Sea snare just hold enemies + deals random damage.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

a low level weapon frame from the highest leveled planet in the game. Makes sense. 

Caliban has higher requirements (cetus bounties are much harder). And planet that you get frame doesn't strongly correlate with their power. You get Yareli on Earth.

She is good enough (power wise). Nothing should be build around SP.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

I do get your qualms about other frames but they are built to be played with niche play styles. Which is valid. The problem is Gyre takes on a general play style and falls behind frames years older at the thing she is supposed to excel at. 

I don't know what niche styles you are talking about. All 3 frames doesn't have that in mind, afair.

 

As fair I remember Gyre  were supposed to excel at critical chance. I thought I would take my Ghoulsaw with high Crit damage to do a lot of Crits. WRONG!

Not every frame has to be the strongest. Some frames are too powerful. I saw Xaku with SP 4k+ enemies just moving around killing everything. She could kill H.gunner level 155 without very specific builds. What you need more? I think she is in good spot powerwise.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, quxier said:

 

Sure, Merulina isn't subsume-friendly but you can put some abilities before casting Merulina. On other hand rest of kit is your average level of synergy:

- some abilities won't work: for example Grendel's Nourish probably won't work on Aquablades or Riptide

- some can coexist: e.g you can CC enemies & slash them with Aquablades

Riptide forces you to stand still (unless you are using Merulina afair). It scatter enemies around. Other abilities keep enemies close. I can swap to something like Khora's Ensnare to have better use of Aquablades.

Little bit CC is nice but we have better or less bugy abilities. I personally keep it.

Put Roar, Viral/heat and use Aquablades to melt Grineer. I used that setup to farm boring grind -> 20 minutes of Kuva survi for Harrow.

Merulina is bad. Her 3rd & 1st makes much better abilities than Merulina.

You can but why? If you are enjoying that kind of clunky skateboard k-drive then go for it. I wanted to like it. I love games about "freestyle stuffs" (e.g. Dave Mirra freestyle bmx) but Merulina is so luck luster (5 tricks doing almost nothing) that I couldn't bother to do it.

Sure, 2nd ability is weak (because she has low duration). Using something more efficient is advised, I guess. I've used Khora's Ensnare. Ensnare has 15 seconds on default.

And we are talking about level 155 heavy gunner. It would be silly if one ability could just touch enemies and they die. You cast 3rd with initial cost of 75 (at base). It's free later (you just have to kill).

Using Primed continuity (+50% duration):

  • 3x 25e every 15 second
  • 50e every 20 second
  • 100e every 30 second

That's like 325 per 1/2 minute. In that time Cathode grace should regenerate 90 energy (200% strength). That's 235 energy per 1/2 minute. Add 30% efficiency then it goes to 165 energy. You can probably go even more down reducing usage of 1st (I think it's mostly gave electric proc for 4th to proc but I need more testing).

Don't forget one important thing. This was used for killing 20x 155 level heavy gunner (maybe corrupted but I don't know if there are huge differences). For normal, lower level I could just use 4th + 3rd and my gun/melee.

I'm using Roar instead of Merulina but the cost is "similar". Of course Aquablades is strong. IMHO it's broken (too powerful) for certain content (Grineer). I've used to do 20 kuva survival just using Aquablades (maybe gun to spread some love viral/heat but I don't remember). At ~~40 minute (around 100th level) I have been using Aquablades + Roar + Viral/heat and it was still very easy.

You cannot compare something so strong (for certain content) because everything would look very weak. Gyre might be not the strongest but she still can deal reasonable damage.

AFAIR, only abilities disappear only when core stuffs gets touched by the Nully.

Ok, maybe I don't understand something but my Aquablades cannot one shoot anything "high level" (I don't know... something like 50+ I guess). I've put like 250% strength on her.

I have tested it on the field as well. It's just easier to put certain units that are stronger to test few setups.

With ~250% strength it needs help with Roar+Viral/heat to deal with ~100 level Grineers (of course weaker one dies much faster).

As for Infested I couldn't do to much damage because Ancients nullies proc (no True damage). I don't remember but I could do like 10-20 minutes survi before Aquablades stopped working.

I've not tested it against Corpus because game likes to put a lot of nullies at me. I've once counted 7 in one room.

And I'm talking about non-SP versions.

 

So I'm not sure how you can one shoot those enemies. I don't know how SP corpus/infested compares to Heavy gunners.

Both Aquablades & Gyre can kill 20x 155 Heavy gunner (corrupted maybe I don't remember).

With non-SP it deals similar damage (excluding maybe some content). Of course, as you mentioned, Aquablades is much more efficient.

It servers another purposes.

Arcsphere may indeed CC enemies but they (I think) are used to proc electric status for 4th.

Sea snare just hold enemies + deals random damage.

Caliban has higher requirements (cetus bounties are much harder). And planet that you get frame doesn't strongly correlate with their power. You get Yareli on Earth.

She is good enough (power wise). Nothing should be build around SP.

I don't know what niche styles you are talking about. All 3 frames doesn't have that in mind, afair.

 

As fair I remember Gyre  were supposed to excel at critical chance. I thought I would take my Ghoulsaw with high Crit damage to do a lot of Crits. WRONG!

Not every frame has to be the strongest. Some frames are too powerful. I saw Xaku with SP 4k+ enemies just moving around killing everything. She could kill H.gunner level 155 without very specific builds. What you need more? I think she is in good spot powerwise.

I would like to start by agreeing that the community feels Yareli is in a bad spot. Power wise and gameplay wise. 
 

Not only is Merulina not subsume friendly, she is solely responsible for all the synergy in Yareli’s kit. Increased speed on sea snares. Movement while casting Riptide. Constant movement to keep her passive up. And constant movement into enemies to continually proc Aquablades ramping damage.  In addition to the added damage reduction. Merulina is an ok skill. Not the best, but it definitely ties together Yareli’s kit. ( damage reduction could use a boost, increased synergy with riptide, Merulina receiving damage reduction and a way to heal Merulina based off of aquablades or sea snares would push Merulina into being a good skill imo)
 

my general point is if your intent is only to use aquablades, it’s the subsume. No point in running Yareli. You know? 
 

It seems to me that once we get to taking abilities off of a frame you are already admitting sub performance. So switching coil horizon and ensnare proves Khora’s CC is better. While also having whiplaw and another strong CC. And a utility cat that wreck when paired with kubrow. All of which is stronger than Gyre’s 4 (her whole kit really). Khora’s strangledome provides better CC and adds Aggro to enemies caught in it with a 2* damage boost to all damage sources that hit strangledome enemies. Whipclaw does more damage than anything in Gyre’s kit without the augment.  As does Venari when used right. Which is sad. Khora is a great frame. The whipclaw augment over performs  but her base stats are solid. 
 

As far as energy consumption what other frames consume that much energy? Gyre’s energy efficiency is bad. I can’t actually think of a single frame except maybe a Grendel with a full belly.  
 

it absolutely would not be silly it would mean that a frame was actually designed with enemy scaling difficulty in mind in a horde killer. Which is good game design. If you are aware that there are multiple endless mission types and that enemies scale up to 9999 it’s simply irresponsible to create frames that can’t  scale. Working against your own game design.  Also a clip of Yareli one shotting a 149 steel path heavy gunner. (Khora, Saryn, Xaku, Sevagoth, etc would actually do it quicker) Yareli one shots. That gyre scales poorly especially against armored enemies who make up 3/5 of the factions and the other 2 still have armored units. It’s unacceptable in my book. 
 

I play almost exclusively in steel path. It seems to be the best way to test your understanding and mastery of the mechanics as it is less forgiving of mistakes / ignorance. There isn’t really anything fun about a low leveled endless mission. One would think the point is to level the enemies up in such missions. 
 

A quick tip for Yareli and killing the infested is to group enemies with your Riptide, then either do a drive by, throw an aquablade, or shoot at the riptide right before it explodes to kill/take out the ancient then everything falls right behind it. 
 

But that’s the thing Aquablades isn’t broken. It performs below par of other offensive abilities and oftentimes below the secondary I have equipped. Spores mollywhops. Flechette Orbs, Mesa’s pistols. Xaku’s grasp of lohk. Gauss’s thermal sunder. Whipclaw. Mirage’s 1,3, or 4. Splinter storm, etc. what is broken is Gyre’s damage potential. 
 

The warframe tips tell players to use the electricity to CC. I feel like arguing that Arcsphere is used to proc electricity and not CC is a difference without a distinction as DE tells us we are expected to proc electricity for crowd control. 
 

Cetus bounties being harder is not true. The enemy level of those bounties is much lower resulting in a lower difficulty. What is true is that they take more time. But they don’t push the mastery of mechanics more. 
 

I will disagree that she’s good enough.  You’re right warframes shouldn’t be balanced according to steel path but according to enemy scaling up to 9999. Like Ivara or Ash or Octavia or Khora or Saryn, etc. even Banshee minus her useless 4. 
 

Yareli’s niche is that you are meant to be on Merulina at all times like you are meant to stay in razorwing with Titania. 
Caliban’s niche is that he is meant to be tank built with armor (like sentients usually have) that adapts to enemies. (Still mediocre and needs buffing) 

Sevagoth is an incomplete frame. But it was meant to encourage switching between forms but it’s clunky and not really worthwhile compared to other options. 
 

well considering the main schtick for Gyre is her abilities crit, which is the unique thing. You would think you would lean to her abilities as opposed to weapons. But she’s absolutely sub par as a caster. And as a weapon frame she’s outclassed by Mirage, Chroma,  and Zephyr. Bottom tier constistently which makes me wonder why you believe it’s appropriate for a new frame to be bottom tier in all respects. Even more so than most outdated frames. She beats out Hydroid but how much is that worth. Add subsume to him and it’s his best ability by default. She can’t even compete with Yareli. And while I can play Yareli in steel path, when paired with a team I’m only getting 20% or less of the damage dealt. So it is not the case that Yareli is crazy strong and very few in the community would argue that. 
 

Yes I need more, because she has no survivability or real CC. So she needs to evaporate enemies. 

Edited by (PSN)Tazzilla88
Fighting the autocorrect goblin
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13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

 

First, you know that you can mark part of text and click quote? It's getting bad on my side trying to follow conversation.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

my general point is if your intent is only to use aquablades, it’s the subsume. No point in running Yareli. You know? 

I've bought one but I don't feel like grinding or buying another one (in case of future nice upgrades).

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

It seems to me that once we get to taking abilities off of a frame you are already admitting sub performance.

Nothing is perfect. I've been trying some builds but Simulacrum isn't the best thing to work with.

If I could change more abilities in Yareli then I would change at least 2. Does it mean "sub performance"? Not exactly. One ability could be better than others, making frame still good even without those abilities.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

As far as energy consumption what other frames consume that much energy? Gyre’s energy efficiency is bad. I can’t actually think of a single frame except maybe a Grendel with a full belly.  

Xaku without 4th or first casts of 4th.

Atlas spamming 3rd with augment.

Mesa/Titania using 4th.

Protea.

ps. As for Grendel, size (of his belly) doesn't matter. It's just after some time energy drain ramp up a lot.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

it absolutely would not be silly it would mean that a frame was actually designed with enemy scaling difficulty in mind in a horde killer. Which is good game design. If you are aware that there are multiple endless mission types and that enemies scale up to 9999 it’s simply irresponsible to create frames that can’t  scale. Working against your own game design.

Endless mission are bad. Sure, there could be some kind of challenge in first, I don't know, few hours. However after some time there is no change except higher numbers. That's not good design.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Also a clip of Yareli one shotting a 149 steel path heavy gunner. (Khora, Saryn, Xaku, Sevagoth, etc would actually do it quicker) Yareli one shots. That gyre scales poorly especially against armored enemies who make up 3/5 of the factions and the other 2 still have armored units. It’s unacceptable in my book. 

To be honest I cannot reproduce it. I had 299% strength and normal Kuva heavy gunner dies slower than your SP version. I've used Kuva nukor (heat + viral), Sevagoth's gun moded just for viral. It's still slower. I can see that your pet proc 10 viral (or was it you?).

ps. it's not "one shot". One shot is when you hit enemy (gun, melee, abilities etc) and it (almost) instantly dies. In your case it's much slower. I could pick Inaros and suck enemy's HP for hours. I won't call it one shot.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

That gyre scales poorly especially against armored enemies who make up 3/5 of the factions and the other 2 still have armored units. It’s unacceptable in my book. 

If she could deal easily with 155 heavy gunners then she is fine.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

I play almost exclusively in steel path. It seems to be the best way to test your understanding and mastery of the mechanics as it is less forgiving of mistakes / ignorance. There isn’t really anything fun about a low leveled endless mission. One would think the point is to level the enemies up in such missions. 

hmmm... I meant more number comparision (e.g. EHP) of units.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

A quick tip for Yareli and killing the infested is to group enemies with your Riptide, then either do a drive by, throw an aquablade, or shoot at the riptide right before it explodes to kill/take out the ancient then everything falls right behind it. 

As fair I remember Aquablades still helped with killing ancients. I might be wrong. I need to test it.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

But that’s the thing Aquablades isn’t broken. It performs below par of other offensive abilities and oftentimes below the secondary I have equipped. Spores mollywhops. Flechette Orbs, Mesa’s pistols. Xaku’s grasp of lohk. Gauss’s thermal sunder. Whipclaw. Mirage’s 1,3, or 4. Splinter storm, etc. what is broken is Gyre’s damage potential. 

If I could do 40 minutes of survi without doing anything complex then it sure is broken. At 40th minute enemies were at 100 level => sortie level. And I have been just holding mouse button, rolling and similar mundane stuffs.

It doesn't matter if it's below some other stuffs when it's still makes game boring cookie clicker.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Cetus bounties being harder is not true. The enemy level of those bounties is much lower resulting in a lower difficulty. What is true is that they take more time. But they don’t push the mastery of mechanics more. 

Level doesn't mean too much when you can just pick bounty where you just have to kill everything and maybe

Spoiler

kill Angel

Or without abilities.

With Cetus bounties you HAVE to have good gear. If, for example, you don't kill enemies fast enough then you loose "Protect the camp" stage.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

I will disagree that she’s good enough.  You’re right warframes shouldn’t be balanced according to steel path but according to enemy scaling up to 9999. Like Ivara or Ash or Octavia or Khora or Saryn, etc. even Banshee minus her useless 4. 

9999? No. What's the point of doing from ~150 to 9999 if it changes NOTHING? As for now new challenges goes up to  around 100-150 level. If you want frames to scale to 9999 level then introduce meaningful changes.

14 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Yareli’s niche is that you are meant to be on Merulina at all times like you are meant to stay in razorwing with Titania. 

Ah, that niche. I always hated it as it FORCES you to use Merulina otherwise abilities gets crippled.

And to be honest I don't it's niche. It's more "forced mechanic". Gaus can run fast but it's just his feature not niche. At least Gauss won't force you.

14 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Caliban’s niche is that he is meant to be tank built with armor (like sentients usually have) that adapts to enemies. (Still mediocre and needs buffing) 

Sevagoth is an incomplete frame. But it was meant to encourage switching between forms but it’s clunky and not really worthwhile compared to other options. 

So you still agree that both frames are not great at their "niches" but still makes Gyre worse?

14 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

well considering the main schtick for Gyre is her abilities crit, which is the unique thing. You would think you would lean to her abilities as opposed to weapons.

She lean on electric proc or cirt. So it's neither abilities nor weapons.

14 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

She can’t even compete with Yareli.

Wrong.

14 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Yes I need more, because she has no survivability or real CC. So she needs to evaporate enemies. 

Then maybe find some idle game? I mean there you could just evaporate everything at some point.

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She's serviceable solo, but bugged to suboptimal in co-op. Really wish her survivability and damage potential get some love, but ultimately bugfixes first if that's not asking too much.

Duration on her 1 and 4 could use a little buffing. Crit multiplier on her passive (therefore her original abilities) uncapped or raised so we can specialize in 100%+ status chance weapons. Discharge cooldown split into per source so her abilities aren't fighting her weapons stealing their "thunder", so to speak.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, quxier said:

I've bought one but I don't feel like grinding or buying another one (in case of future nice upgrades).

Ok, but using a frame for 25% of its kit that’s available to everyone else you have to know is not using Yareli to her best. 

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Nothing is perfect. I've been trying some builds but Simulacrum isn't the best thing to work with.

If I could change more abilities in Yareli then I would change at least 2. Does it mean "sub performance"? Not exactly. One ability could be better than others, making frame still good even without those abilities.

Khora. Gauss. Zephyr. Nidus. Baruuk, etc. Listen the kind of frames I’m talking about exist. Beyond that you already admitted arc coil performed worse than ensnare and suggested switching it with ensnare. So what are you double speaking. Stand ten toes down on the points you make. Don’t wishy wash. 

5 hours ago, quxier said:

To be honest I cannot reproduce it. I had 299% strength and normal Kuva heavy gunner dies slower than your SP version. I've used Kuva nukor (heat + viral), Sevagoth's gun moded just for viral. It's still slower. I can see that your pet proc 10 viral (or was it you?).

ps. it's not "one shot". One shot is when you hit enemy (gun, melee, abilities etc) and it (almost) instantly dies. In your case it's much slower. I could pick Inaros and suck enemy's HP for hours. I won't call it one shot.

No.  One shot means ohko (one hit knock out). The terms of are synonymous. The important factor of a one shot is that you hit once. Inaros’ suck has multiple hits. Not the same thing.  So you couldn’t. Also the extended video I believe in the first minute or two I one shot a level 250 steel path enemy with aquablades. And it’s based off of scaling aquablades appropriately in a mission. Which is what gets the damage high enough to kill off of one throw. I mean I killed a lot more than that one grineer but the horde nature of the game makes it difficult to focus on one death as enemies are still shooting everywhere. 

5 hours ago, quxier said:

If I could do 40 minutes of survi without doing anything complex then it sure is broken. At 40th minute enemies were at 100 level => sortie level. And I have been just holding mouse button, rolling and similar mundane stuffs.

It doesn't matter if it's below some other stuffs when it's still makes game boring cookie clicker.

No. Nope. Not at all. I can use every single frame in a survival to 120 without using a single ability. When you actually practice the game mechanics the first part of the game doesn’t require a single warframe ability. So that’s a really poor measuring stick you’ve got there buddy. 
 

yes it does matter. Because what is she better at? And don’t say electricity procs. Because Volt is the better electricity frame by a mile. 
 

how does she protect herself? How does she protect a defense objective? 
 

 

5 hours ago, quxier said:

9999? No. What's the point of doing from ~150 to 9999 if it changes NOTHING? As for now new challenges goes up to  around 100-150 level. If you want frames to scale to 9999 level then introduce meaningful changes.

Because that’s the games design. What sense does it make for you a player to want frames to be designed counter to the games design when new endless modes were just added. It makes none. 
 

it’s also untrue that the game doesn’t get harder. It does because at a point you must use your abilities. At another you must use your full arsenal. And then you reach the point when maintaining efficiency of your ability gets harder because enemies take longer to drop and therefore it takes longer to get health and energy orbs. And therefore your gameplay style has to adapt yet again. 

5 hours ago, quxier said:

So you still agree that both frames are not great at their "niches" but still makes Gyre worse?

20 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Absolutely. They do things better than Gyre does and don’t die because of an enemy sneeze.  Gyre does what my pistol can do on its own worse than my pistol does it. And as secondary’s are the worse in the game it should be blatantly obvious the gyre is underpowered. So what is the point in frame than kills slower than my weapons and can’t CC to save my life? 

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Wrong

I mean if you can’t even replicate that effect against a 150 heavy gunner, respectfully, you are not in a position to judge Yareli’s effectiveness as you haven’t actually figured out how to build her yet. Like most of the community.  So you certainly can’t judge another frames effectiveness compared to Yareli. 

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Then maybe find some idle game? I mean there you could just evaporate everything at some point.

Clearly you misunderstand basic game mechanics which is why you continue to play the base game and think that abilities should be needed by 40 mins in (which is an absurd amount expectation if you aren’t a new player). And that’s fine. Or maybe because you have trouble building for scaling or maybe you enjoy evaporating low leveled enemies. But let me introduce you to what a glass cannon does. “A character or unit with strong offensive power but weak defensive capabilities.”. 
Now, Gyre certainly has weak defensive capabilities. Especially compared to proper frames.  Like all of the frames I mentioned in this post, but in addition to having a worse defense than those frames she also has a worse offense. That’s not balance. You might think it is but it’s not. The whole archetype of glass cannon is based on a balance of killing fast enough to survive. Saryn is a good example. And as far as this cookie cutter goes that crap. Khora is nothing like Saryn but produces a similar offensive capability and if you don’t want it, don’t build for it. But ask Gyre has less survivability than Saryn I really can’t figure out why she has less offense than tank frames. 

Edited by (PSN)Tazzilla88
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2 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:
8 hours ago, quxier said:

 

Ok, but using a frame for 25% of its kit that’s available to everyone else you have to know is not using Yareli to her best. 

Sure but it's not like 3 other abilities change too much. At least in my gameplay.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Khora. Gauss. Zephyr. Nidus. Baruuk, etc.

Are you saying that they are perfect? I don't think they are.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Beyond that you already admitted arc coil performed worse than ensnare and suggested switching it with ensnare. So what are you double speaking. Stand ten toes down on the points you make. Don’t wishy wash. 

I'm just saying that one worse ability still can make whole frame perform on 100% level (let's say <100% is "sub performance").

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

No. Nope. Not at all. I can use every single frame in a survival to 120 without using a single ability. When you actually practice the game mechanics the first part of the game doesn’t require a single warframe ability. So that’s a really poor measuring stick you’ve got there buddy. 

Sure you can use your weapon or other stuffs. I've been talking about Aquablades so I used that ability as an example. To make more general statement: if you can use your gear or part of it without any change AND without effort killing enemies on big range of levels then item(s) is(are) overpowered (broken).

 

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

yes it does matter. Because what is she better at? And don’t say electricity procs. Because Volt is the better electricity frame by a mile. 

It doesn't matter if frame is better or worse if the frame can still manage to to deal with max ranked enemies (I think enemies goes below 155 level).

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

how does she protect herself?

Adaptation, rolling guard, maybe some health? I've tried her without those mods and it was miserable experience. Adding those mods (not sure if all) made her survivality better. I haven't played her too much on higher level so I cannot say for sure.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

How does she protect a defense objective? 

Not every frame will be good at all stuffs. I get even insta-fail with Frost (may be some of my fault - I haven't been playing a lot defenses since Eximus update).

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Because that’s the games design. What sense does it make for you a player to want frames to be designed counter to the games design when new endless modes were just added. It makes none. 

Not every part of game is good. DE will even auto-ban you (trading afair) for longer session (auto-ban bug or something). As fair I remember DE doesn't want you to play very long time. In Europa chat we get "You've been playing for 10 hours" like message.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

it’s also untrue that the game doesn’t get harder. It does because at a point you must use your abilities. At another you must use your full arsenal. And then you reach the point when maintaining efficiency of your ability gets harder because enemies take longer to drop and therefore it takes longer to get health and energy orbs. And therefore your gameplay style has to adapt yet again. 

I've not played too much (I rarely went more than 1h) but ~4 hours in SP doesn't seems to be different than low level nodes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8sHV1sOjX8

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Absolutely. They do things better than Gyre does and don’t die because of an enemy sneeze.  Gyre does what my pistol can do on its own worse than my pistol does it. And as secondary’s are the worse in the game it should be blatantly obvious the gyre is underpowered. So what is the point in frame than kills slower than my weapons and can’t CC to save my life? 

Gyre is not clunky as Sevagoth. Her abilities doesn't requires you to turn off ability to use another ability (you cannot activate Caliban's 4th on Razor Gyre).

Maybe they should nerf your weapons?

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

I mean if you can’t even replicate that effect against a 150 heavy gunner, respectfully, you are not in a position to judge Yareli’s effectiveness as you haven’t actually figured out how to build her yet. Like most of the community.  So you certainly can’t judge another frames effectiveness compared to Yareli. 

I cannot replicate because you haven't given us ANY builds. Not even used gear.

You are saying that Aquablades one shot (one hit and enemy dies even it takes some time) but you proced Viral (afair) on that heavy gunner.

Something is not right here.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Clearly you misunderstand basic game mechanics which is why you continue to play the base game and think that abilities should be needed by 40 mins in (which is an absurd amount expectation if you aren’t a new player). And that’s fine. Or maybe because you have trouble building for scaling or maybe you enjoy evaporating low leveled enemies

I enjoy non SP whenever it's weapon or ability play.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

But let me introduce you to what a glass cannon does. “A character or unit with strong offensive power but weak defensive capabilities.”. 
Now, Gyre certainly has weak defensive capabilities. Especially compared to proper frames.  Like all of the frames I mentioned in this post, but in addition to having a worse defense than those frames she also has a worse offense. That’s not balance. You might think it is but it’s not. The whole archetype of glass cannon is based on a balance of killing fast enough to survive. Saryn is a good example. And as far as this cookie cutter goes that crap. Khora is nothing like Saryn but produces a similar offensive capability and if you don’t want it, don’t build for it. But ask Gyre has less survivability than Saryn I really can’t figure out why she has less offense than tank frames. 

For me she is powerful enough. I'm glad they balanced her around normal star chart levels (100-150) and not giving her completely useless ability like Caliban's Razor Gyre.

You want more power but I don't think she needs that much power.

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