Jump to content

Voidshell materials for all skins.


 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi,

Since the Zariman release, players have discovered a bug that allows the use of voidshell materials in non-voidshell skins.

The bug currently works in more than 50% of the base skins according to this post.

Hence, I'm creating this post to ask DE to introduce this as a universal feature, instead of making it remain exclusive for some frames and some skins.

Lets be real for a moment, unpopular frames will never get a voidshell skin, and the release of voidshell skins for most of the frames will take several years... and why? DE says it's difficult from a technical point of view but I think this is something worth making some effort into.

It'd open so many possibilities for fashion in this game, a spore Gauss? would be possible, an even more disco Octavia? done, even a titanium Titania.

The author of the post has suggested making voidshell materials usable on a frame for a price tag of 100 platinum, while I consider that to be quite expensive considering the amount of frames we have right now, it's reasonable that DE has to earn some money with the voidshell stuff.

I'd like to know your opinion on this matter, even more if you have some experience working with Warframe skins to provide a more technical point of view.

Here are some more posts to see how it looks:

Post 1

Post 2

 

 

  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is that in a lot of examples you can see spots of the textures being warped/distorted as well as the lighting being off. It looks well enough on some but needing to go through every skin to see that it's all working/looks as intended was part of the very reason they didn't just enable it on all skins.

Also the update was a bit over a month ago and we've not had a content update since so we don't know how long it'll take them to start pumping out base Voidshells for other frames. It could be months until we see more or we could be getting them every other content update.

 

It would be nice for them to just go and enable it on everything but if they do then there will be a flood of complaints about various visual issues with it. Especially if they charge to unlock the feature.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe one day we'll get voidshell updates for at least deluxes, since a lot of people love the deluxes and some deluxes recolor like garbage. (Looking at you, Harka Frost!)

i do love harka frost btw but the fact every color becomes ridiculously pale and dusty sucks.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

 

hace 18 minutos, trst dijo:

The problem is that in a lot of examples you can see spots of the textures being warped/distorted as well as the lighting being off. It looks well enough on some but needing to go through every skin to see that it's all working/looks as intended was part of the very reason they didn't just enable it on all skins.

Also the update was a bit over a month ago and we've not had a content update since so we don't know how long it'll take them to start pumping out base Voidshells for other frames. It could be months until we see more or we could be getting them every other content update.

 

It would be nice for them to just go and enable it on everything but if they do then there will be a flood of complaints about various visual issues with it. Especially if they charge to unlock the feature.

I agree this would take some workload to be done, however the result would be so significant...

I'd say it'd have an even greater impact than the introduction of ephemeras. It would severely increase the choices we have when creating fashion.

It'd be normal if they suddenly enabled it and bugs started popping up everywhere, this is something that should be worked on for some time, to be released on a future update, not right now, just that would be much better than not having this system at all.

 

hace 15 minutos, Flannoit dijo:

Maybe one day we'll get voidshell updates for at least deluxes, since a lot of people love the deluxes and some deluxes recolor like garbage. (Looking at you, Harka Frost!)

i do love harka frost btw but the fact every color becomes ridiculously pale and dusty sucks.

Yess, a big problem some of the cool looking skins have is that its materials interact pretty weirdly with colors, making them have very limited options on customization.

Edited by krazox
Typos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. I am not well versed or knowledgable in the video game/computer graphics, modelling, sculpting etc or whatever is involved as far as the technical aspects of implementing skin textures with character models in video games. So naive, I don't even know how to articulate the lack of knowledge in this regard. So I have to rely on other people who know better. However I am knowledgeable in humans, specifically a bit about how we behave, think, conform, deviate, assume, speculate, reason, conclude so on, and to a lesser extent a bit about business, and transparency. 

Which is a long way of saying, if/when DE says that implementing Voidshell skin texture retroactively to all the skins we have is too difficult, whether by amount of time, resources, processing power, value, etc I'll generally accept and believe that as generally true/accurate. Until presented with good data and reasoning as to why its not. Like for all I know, there might just be a switch they can press. So a lack on transparency, and they just pretend otherwise to profit. Thing is... even if the latter is true, its a business thing. Could be quite profitable. I don't think its true though, because I haven't seen knowledgable experts on this subject, come out and explain the process as being **that** simple, easy, and cost effective, the way some players presume/assume. 

Which also means I don't know the nature of the bug. Is the bug an issue free, effortless glitch which can take preexisting skins, and make them Voidshell Texture capable? Or has DE being doing tests on (which means work, resources, time, money) such Warframes/skins the glitch works with, they just haven't made those skins the official recipients of such feature yet? Since they decided to stagger the releases, so they can test the waters on how much Plat they can get from players versus the amount of work required? Which would mean that players stumbling across a glitch, may either realise what I just stated or some might conclude that somehow such texture technology easily swaps between Warframes without any DE input. Which, again, it might be, I don't know. Alternatively there may be issues with such glitches. Which create more issues, so need to be cleaned up. 

2. A post asking it to be a universal feature, isn't likely to work or be effective. Its like asking for the next two Primes to be released this week, More Voidshell skins are going to come, likely in staggered releases, and neat bundles. Its just a matter of time and patience. Lets say DE had the ability to stop all progress on other updates, so no new content for a year, because the equivalent dedication to Voidshells would mean they can release a skin for all Warframes by the same point, and then they made a bundle where you could buy them for 3000 Plat? The game would be dead and not many people would spend that amount of Plat. Alternatively... if they have a few people working on a few skins, they continue their normal operations, Duviri Paradox, Crossplay, next Prime, other QOL fixes, and every update they offer 3 Voidshell skins for 3 or 5 Warframes for 200 Plat (Bundle)? Much more reasonable and likely cost effective. 

I get that will be frustrating for those of us who have our favourites that don't have them yet, but unless DE is deceiving us about how easy and simple it is to implement, it is what it is. Even more, even if DE isn't being transparent about us, not much we can actually do. Ifs costing them resources/time, its a valid reason to stagger the releases to make Plat, this is a FTP game, that needs its cosmetics to make it money. So unless you have someone who has expertise, and technical knowledge around the subject and a decent platform, breaks down how/why DE could do this fast and inexpensively and it gains traction, and then yey, next week we get lots of Voidskins. From my limited standing the latter isn't realistic though, so even though I personally really really want Voidshell skins for all my favs - probably my personal biggest want, aside from Infested/Orokin Liches/Nemesis and more Lich/Sister weapons - I am tempering my expectations and will try to be patient. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Which also means I don't know the nature of the bug.

Note I am not 100% sure, but IIRC the PBR implementation has been evolving over the years. Starting with I believe Hildryn, the way the materials are integrated is different than say Inaros or Ivara. If the material implementation on Voidshell skins is similar, it can explain as to why they can be applied, although as trst is stating above it shows it's not unwrapping and applying properly.

It reminds me of the classic Mirage Eclipse bug, where the script reapplied the textures, so using it once and changing frames in Simulacrum would apply Mirage's textures over the other Warframes, although obviously distorted, due the way Simulacrum works VS Arsenal > loading mission.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
hace 29 minutos, (PSN)slightconfuzzled dijo:

1. I am not well versed or knowledgable in the video game/computer graphics, modelling, sculpting etc or whatever is involved as far as the technical aspects of implementing skin textures with character models in video games. So naive, I don't even know how to articulate the lack of knowledge in this regard. So I have to rely on other people who know better. However I am knowledgeable in humans, specifically a bit about how we behave, think, conform, deviate, assume, speculate, reason, conclude so on, and to a lesser extent a bit about business, and transparency. 

Which is a long way of saying, if/when DE says that implementing Voidshell skin texture retroactively to all the skins we have is too difficult, whether by amount of time, resources, processing power, value, etc I'll generally accept and believe that as generally true/accurate. Until presented with good data and reasoning as to why its not. Like for all I know, there might just be a switch they can press. So a lack on transparency, and they just pretend otherwise to profit. Thing is... even if the latter is true, its a business thing. Could be quite profitable. I don't think its true though, because I haven't seen knowledgable experts on this subject, come out and explain the process as being **that** simple, easy, and cost effective, the way some players presume/assume. 

Which also means I don't know the nature of the bug. Is the bug an issue free, effortless glitch which can take preexisting skins, and make them Voidshell Texture capable? Or has DE being doing tests on (which means work, resources, time, money) such Warframes/skins the glitch works with, they just haven't made those skins the official recipients of such feature yet? Since they decided to stagger the releases, so they can test the waters on how much Plat they can get from players versus the amount of work required? Which would mean that players stumbling across a glitch, may either realise what I just stated or some might conclude that somehow such texture technology easily swaps between Warframes without any DE input. Which, again, it might be, I don't know. Alternatively there may be issues with such glitches. Which create more issues, so need to be cleaned up. 

2. A post asking it to be a universal feature, isn't likely to work or be effective. Its like asking for the next two Primes to be released this week, More Voidshell skins are going to come, likely in staggered releases, and neat bundles. Its just a matter of time and patience. Lets say DE had the ability to stop all progress on other updates, so no new content for a year, because the equivalent dedication to Voidshells would mean they can release a skin for all Warframes by the same point, and then they made a bundle where you could buy them for 3000 Plat? The game would be dead and not many people would spend that amount of Plat. Alternatively... if they have a few people working on a few skins, they continue their normal operations, Duviri Paradox, Crossplay, next Prime, other QOL fixes, and every update they offer 3 Voidshell skins for 3 or 5 Warframes for 200 Plat (Bundle)? Much more reasonable and likely cost effective. 

I get that will be frustrating for those of us who have our favourites that don't have them yet, but unless DE is deceiving us about how easy and simple it is to implement, it is what it is. Even more, even if DE isn't being transparent about us, not much we can actually do. Ifs costing them resources/time, its a valid reason to stagger the releases to make Plat, this is a FTP game, that needs its cosmetics to make it money. So unless you have someone who has expertise, and technical knowledge around the subject and a decent platform, breaks down how/why DE could do this fast and inexpensively and it gains traction, and then yey, next week we get lots of Voidskins. From my limited standing the latter isn't realistic though, so even though I personally really really want Voidshell skins for all my favs - probably my personal biggest want, aside from Infested/Orokin Liches/Nemesis and more Lich/Sister weapons - I am tempering my expectations and will try to be patient. 

1. We're not saying there is a switch DE can press to make voidshell materials work on every skin flawlessly, currently, the bug tries to do that but it presents bugs on many skins, on some, it's not working at all, on others, it creates some weird looking textures, but in many, it just works. The bug for example, doesn't work on some frame-specific accesories such as Ivara's clothes.

So the post has been created to ask DE to work on the matter, the bug shows us how great some frames can look if this feature was implemented in the game.

It'd take some time and personnel to do it, but it'd improve our customization system greatly.

2. Yes, you're right that DE needs some kind of justification to implement this, if improving its game wasn't enough, that's why the author of the reddit post brings it up, suggesting a 100p tag per frame to use the new system. I consider this quite expensive as there're so many frames counting their prime versions that it'd cost the players a bit too much plat in my opinion. However if this was ever to be implemented I'm sure DE would try to capitalize on it.

Also, I don't think DE needs to stop all content creation just for this, it wouldn't make any sense to do that, but, if that was the case, it wouldn't take a year of work, in any case, that's fantasizing.

You're right tho, probably this post won't matter much and DE will just keep releasing some voidshell skins every so and then, but this implementation we're suggesting is much better for the overall game health that what DE will do, so it's our obligation to at least suggest it openly, be it on reddit or here, these are the ways we have to communicate our ideas to them, so this has to be done.

If you want to know more, check the reddit post's comments, some people seems to be more knowledgeable on the matter and know a bit more about how textures work on this game.

Edited by krazox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, krazox said:

1. We're not saying there is a switch DE can press to make voidshell materials work on every skin flawlessly, currently, the bug tries to do that but it presents bugs on many skins, on some, it's not working at all, on others, it creates some weird looking textures, but in many, it just works. The bug for example, doesn't work on some frame-specific accesories such as Ivara's clothes.

So the post has been created to ask DE to work on the matter, the bug shows us how great some frames can look if this feature was implemented in the game.

 

I know you are not, but some have. Some forum posts in the past have had users who think its an easy process DE can casually do. Also pressing a button is just an example. 

We already know DE is working on this, the issue is how much effort and thus resources are required. If people don't have an accurate gauge of the effort and resources required, they are liable to both undervaluing or overvaluing the process and then drawing faulty conclusions. Which is what the rest of my post explains. 

 

19 minutes ago, krazox said:

It'd take some time and personnel to do it, but it'd improve our customization system greatly.

 

Yes but again, as above, how much time and personnel exactly? 2 people and one hour? 4000 people and 10 thousand hours? Probably something inbetween, but if a random person assumes the former, then they are more likely to underestimate the effort/resources required and if the latter, overestimate. 

 

21 minutes ago, krazox said:

Also, I don't think DE needs to stop all content creation just for this, it wouldn't make any sense to do that, but, if that was the case, it wouldn't take a year of work, in any case, that's fantasizing.

 

You are aware it was an example yes? To emphasis a point. I would assume you don't think DE needs to stop all content creation, thats the point. We already know DE is working on this. Requesting that they make this a universal feature not exclusive to some Warframes is akin to asking for Wisp, Lavos, Xaku and Gauss to get Prime versions, and not just limit Prime versions to Frames that have them. Its just a matter of time. Volt, Saryn, and Rhino don't have exclusivity, they are just the first batch. 

I don't know how long it would take, or the resources required, but that wasn't the point, the point is a lot of players are guilty of making assumptions, based on a lack of understanding/knowledge. People often want something specific, not realising that DE can only do so much. There are probably a few people working on crossplay, but other stuff may pop up, and then they work on something else more urgent and thus crossplay gets slightly delayed. Or... if thats the priority, its the other thing that is delayed. So whenever a fan suggest something be the priority, its something else another fan is looking forward to, that may be delayed instead. Something many fans/players struggle to comprehend. 

 

27 minutes ago, krazox said:

You're right tho, probably this post won't matter much and DE will just keep releasing some voidshell skins every so and then, but this implementation we're suggesting is much better for the overall game health that what DE will do, so it's our obligation to at least suggest it openly, be it on reddit or here, these are the ways we have to communicate our ideas to them, so this has to be done.

 

I am not trying to be right. I am trying to be realistic. The implementation some people are suggesting, aren't providing any substantial technical knowledge and understanding. At least to my general awareness so far. 

Like in your OP post you mentioned "I'd like to know your opinion on this matter, even more if you have some experience working with Warframe skins to provide a more technical point of view." imagine if someone who worked in video games chimed in? "Hello, I am Jeff, I worked on Destiny and Anthem, and I have 10 years experience in 3D meshing in video games, so I know a lot about skins and textures, from what I know about this, and DE's employees, they could realistically create about 300 Voidshell skins, 10 people, for the cost of $10 000. To make that back, they could price each at 100 Plat to break even or 200 Plat to make profit" but a lot of random online anonymous people aren't Jeff. 

How do you know that your suggestion is better for the overall health of the game than what DE will do? Sincere question. I don't know skins and textures, but I do know people and how we reason. When I ask you a question like above? Are you going to answer me, by listing your experience and understanding with FTP video game models? Possible first hand experience with running a game as a business? Will you take my question and react defensively? For even asking or because it might seem like an attempt at discrediting what you think?!?

The forums get thousands of suggestions constantly by people who think they know better than DE, and sometimes the suggestions can actually be pretty good. The best suggestions, usually require a decent grasp of context around the suggestion though. Like there is another thread where some is suggesting that Plat be restricted by MR. Horrible awareness and won't be implemented, way too risky, tricky and could literally ruin DE's Warframe model. Other threads often are more realistic and can be implemented, stuff that eventually gets added, they operate with better context with their suggestions and implementation. I am not saying your suggestion is bad, but how realistic is it actually? 

Would you bet your livelihood and life savings that this is definitely better for the health of the game? Is that how much confidence you have invested in your suggestion? To tell DE and its workers? Hey, I know this is your job, but me and some Internet Forum people actually think our suggestion is better so... Also, for all I know, you might actually a Jeff aka an expert in computer technology, meshing, skins, textures etc with first hand experience with owning a video game company, and FTP models, and your suggestion IS in fact better. In which case I would recommend your argument include more facts and figures and specifics, numbers etc

 

48 minutes ago, krazox said:

If you want to know more, check the reddit post's comments, some people seems to be more knowledgeable on the matter and know a bit more about how textures work on this game.

 

I already saw those Reddit posts, and many many more, and there have been many forum posts at this site on the topic. All the people I have seen who seem to actually know more about the subject, with examples, and expertise on the matter, I have mostly seen correcting people who think that DE can do this easy and fast, and explaining some of the issues that might slow down the process, talking about different bugs/glitches etc but I am still yet to see anyone claim themselves as an expert with a good understanding of the DE's internal structures. 

Also please do not take my opposition or resistance as aggression or dismissing your suggestion. We seem to both what the same thing right? More Voidshell skins sooner, yes? I also really want Gauss Prime, and Wisp Prime, but I just have to wait. More Voidshell skins? We just have to wait. We can try to make excuses or invent reasons to justify why the thing we want could come sooner? "Better for the health of the game" but how much of that, is just us, really really wanting something, and being a bit impatient? 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't read through the whole thread/reddit post but the fact that voidshell appears to work on many skins makes me think the "it takes too much work" thing DE was saying is a load of balogna. Seems to me like they want to make a bigger deal out of voidshell than it actually is to sell texture packs over a period of time instead of just adding it as a feature rent-free if you will. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hace 12 minutos, (PSN)slightconfuzzled dijo:

 

I know you are not, but some have. Some forum posts in the past have had users who think its an easy process DE can casually do. Also pressing a button is just an example. 

We already know DE is working on this, the issue is how much effort and thus resources are required. If people don't have an accurate gauge of the effort and resources required, they are liable to both undervaluing or overvaluing the process and then drawing faulty conclusions. Which is what the rest of my post explains. 

 

 

Yes but again, as above, how much time and personnel exactly? 2 people and one hour? 4000 people and 10 thousand hours? Probably something inbetween, but if a random person assumes the former, then they are more likely to underestimate the effort/resources required and if the latter, overestimate. 

 

 

You are aware it was an example yes? To emphasis a point. I would assume you don't think DE needs to stop all content creation, thats the point. We already know DE is working on this. Requesting that they make this a universal feature not exclusive to some Warframes is akin to asking for Wisp, Lavos, Xaku and Gauss to get Prime versions, and not just limit Prime versions to Frames that have them. Its just a matter of time. Volt, Saryn, and Rhino don't have exclusivity, they are just the first batch. 

I don't know how long it would take, or the resources required, but that wasn't the point, the point is a lot of players are guilty of making assumptions, based on a lack of understanding/knowledge. People often want something specific, not realising that DE can only do so much. There are probably a few people working on crossplay, but other stuff may pop up, and then they work on something else more urgent and thus crossplay gets slightly delayed. Or... if thats the priority, its the other thing that is delayed. So whenever a fan suggest something be the priority, its something else another fan is looking forward to, that may be delayed instead. Something many fans/players struggle to comprehend. 

 

 

I am not trying to be right. I am trying to be realistic. The implementation some people are suggesting, aren't providing any substantial technical knowledge and understanding. At least to my general awareness so far. 

Like in your OP post you mentioned "I'd like to know your opinion on this matter, even more if you have some experience working with Warframe skins to provide a more technical point of view." imagine if someone who worked in video games chimed in? "Hello, I am Jeff, I worked on Destiny and Anthem, and I have 10 years experience in 3D meshing in video games, so I know a lot about skins and textures, from what I know about this, and DE's employees, they could realistically create about 300 Voidshell skins, 10 people, for the cost of $10 000. To make that back, they could price each at 100 Plat to break even or 200 Plat to make profit" but a lot of random online anonymous people aren't Jeff. 

How do you know that your suggestion is better for the overall health of the game than what DE will do? Sincere question. I don't know skins and textures, but I do know people and how we reason. When I ask you a question like above? Are you going to answer me, by listing your experience and understanding with FTP video game models? Possible first hand experience with running a game as a business? Will you take my question and react defensively? For even asking or because it might seem like an attempt at discrediting what you think?!?

The forums get thousands of suggestions constantly by people who think they know better than DE, and sometimes the suggestions can actually be pretty good. The best suggestions, usually require a decent grasp of context around the suggestion though. Like there is another thread where some is suggesting that Plat be restricted by MR. Horrible awareness and won't be implemented, way too risky, tricky and could literally ruin DE's Warframe model. Other threads often are more realistic and can be implemented, stuff that eventually gets added, they operate with better context with their suggestions and implementation. I am not saying your suggestion is bad, but how realistic is it actually? 

Would you bet your livelihood and life savings that this is definitely better for the health of the game? Is that how much confidence you have invested in your suggestion? To tell DE and its workers? Hey, I know this is your job, but me and some Internet Forum people actually think our suggestion is better so... Also, for all I know, you might actually a Jeff aka an expert in computer technology, meshing, skins, textures etc with first hand experience with owning a video game company, and FTP models, and your suggestion IS in fact better. In which case I would recommend your argument include more facts and figures and specifics, numbers etc

 

 

I already saw those Reddit posts, and many many more, and there have been many forum posts at this site on the topic. All the people I have seen who seem to actually know more about the subject, with examples, and expertise on the matter, I have mostly seen correcting people who think that DE can do this easy and fast, and explaining some of the issues that might slow down the process, talking about different bugs/glitches etc but I am still yet to see anyone claim themselves as an expert with a good understanding of the DE's internal structures. 

Also please do not take my opposition or resistance as aggression or dismissing your suggestion. We seem to both what the same thing right? More Voidshell skins sooner, yes? I also really want Gauss Prime, and Wisp Prime, but I just have to wait. More Voidshell skins? We just have to wait. We can try to make excuses or invent reasons to justify why the thing we want could come sooner? "Better for the health of the game" but how much of that, is just us, really really wanting something, and being a bit impatient? 

Well, I was asking for a technical pov from someone with experience modeling in Warframe, perharps someone who has tried to develop tennogen content, because they'd know better if said suggestion is even possible, and if so, how difficult they think it'd be to implement it.

I think my suggestion is better for the overall health because having a brand new accesible system that people can toy with on every frame would make it extremely more popular than a bunch of voidshell skins that are expensive and, as of now and probably in the future, will be limited to some frames. I think someone that wants a voidshell skin for Hydroid or Lavos will have to wait many years to be able to use it, but if you create a generic system capable of handling most of the skins from the get-go you've got quite a lot of potential users right there. Instead of milking the player slowly and providing less content, you're making your game straight better, providing a popular solution for the players, yeah I think even if DE loses some tens of thousands in voidshell skins it'll be better in the long run. I can say this with even more confidence now that they've Tencent holding their back. Happy players bring more players that spend more money.

I'm not an expert whatsoever on the matter and I already specified this on the thread, I make this suggestion as a player, not as a technical person, even then, why'd it matter? I'm just giving my opinion on a feature that I think should be implemented into a game, it's up to them to decide wether I'm wrong or not, I've already explained my thought-process to think it's a good feature but they're the ones developing the game. DE is many times shortsighted so it isn't too strange that the playerbase is right on many changes.

See, I don't think you're being aggresive towards me but that you're focusing on something that I don't feel has importance at all which is who the OP is to give a suggestion, rather than discusing the pros/cons the suggestion would have if it was implemented in the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, krazox said:

I agree this would take some workload to be done, however the result would be so significant...

I'd say it'd have an even greater impact than the introduction of ephemeras. It would severely increase the choices we have when creating fashion.

It'd be normal if they suddenly enabled it and bugs started popping up everywhere, this is something that should be worked on for some time, to be released on a future update, not right now, just that would be much better than not having this system at all.

It's not that there would be bugs but that there would be so many potential issues created all at once. Where if they release a few at a time then issues with those would be addressed in the following hotfixes before the next content update. Dropping most/all of them at once though means fixes for any specific one could take weeks or months before someone can get around to dealing with it.

And I'm not saying for them to not expand the system at all. Just that releasing them in batches would create fewer issues in the long run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Reg and Primes I could see void shell skins in time for sure. Tennogen probably not. Deluxe probably not. Weapons probably not. 

The Bug allows both Tennogen and Deluxes to use Voidshell materials, if DE will ever release skins for those... is a rather controversial subject

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, krazox said:

Well, I was asking for a technical pov from someone with experience modeling in Warframe, perharps someone who has tried to develop tennogen content, because they'd know better if said suggestion is even possible, and if so, how difficult they think it'd be to implement it.

 

Its a good request, and I hope someone with such experience and knowledge does chime in. You don't have to justify why you asked mind you, my statement was framing to explain something. Not all questions are necessarily combative. 

 

1 hour ago, krazox said:

I think my suggestion is better for the overall health because having a brand new accesible system that people can toy with on every frame would make it extremely more popular than a bunch of voidshell skins that are expensive and, as of now and probably in the future, will be limited to some frames. I think someone that wants a voidshell skin for Hydroid or Lavos will have to wait many years to be able to use it, but if you create a generic system capable of handling most of the skins from the get-go you've got quite a lot of potential users right there. Instead of milking the player slowly and providing less content, you're making your game straight better, providing a popular solution for the players, yeah I think even if DE loses some tens of thousands in voidshell skins it'll be better in the long run. I can say this with even more confidence now that they've Tencent holding their back. Happy players bring more players that spend more money.

 

Your reasoning here is a mix of vague general statements on variables that inherently require fine tuning and balancing and assumptions of value, you can't really provide numbers to give them credibility or substance. What does "create a generic system of handling most of the skins from the get go"? Also how do you prove your suggestion is actually better for the games health? You just went in to reasons you think it is. If we asked 100 different Warframe fans for their personal opinions on whats better for the health, would yours be the very top? How? Why? 

 

1 hour ago, krazox said:

I'm not an expert whatsoever on the matter and I already specified this on the thread, I make this suggestion as a player, not as a technical person, even then, why'd it matter? I'm just giving my opinion on a feature that I think should be implemented into a game, it's up to them to decide wether I'm wrong or not, I've already explained my thought-process to think it's a good feature but they're the ones developing the game. DE is many times shortsighted so it isn't too strange that the playerbase is right on many changes.

 

If you are not an expert, why do you think your suggestion is better for the health of the game? 

If you are just giving your opinion on a feature, thats quite different from attempting to make a valid and credible suggestion using objective criteria. "I know better than a game developer in the business of maintaining a FTP game, dealing in millions of dollars, with hundreds of different workers, who are in this for careers, so in many cases, rely on this games health for their livelihood" is essentially the claim you make, when you say stuff like, this is better for the games health. 

Do you mean to say thats just your opinion? Okay sure... Thats definitely the crux issues. Personally, I think opinions are more for situations like "I think Atlas looks cooler than Oberon", "I like the sound of Stropha more than Redeemer", not "DE needs to implement this suggestion or else they are worse off" because then you should have more objective criteria, evidence, analysis right? Not just whim and speculation? 

DE can be shortsighted sure, but they are actually running a game, with the the consequences, positives and negatives. You know whats an even more common issue? People who think their own internal reasoning in the vacuum of their imagination, can actually provide any actual real world value, not realising or understand the limitations, nuance or complications involved. Which happens way way more often, armchair expert/armchair developers. In many cases such players can't even articulate their reasoning or thought processes well enough to convince fellow fans of an issue, let alone a Developer that has much more at stake.

Also to be clear, I am not passive aggressively suggesting you are an armchair developer, I think you articulate your thought process very well. I am just personally not sold on the idea you have actually demonstrated why you know the health of Warframe better than DE. Anymore than any other random forum user. Mostly because, as well, your own transparency about not being an expert on the matter, which is good, and honest, but your (and other peoples suggestion about the implementation of this feature) requires more expert input. Especially to evaluate how its implementation could be achieved to determine ideas about whose idea is better for the health of the game. 

1 hour ago, krazox said:

See, I don't think you're being aggresive towards me but that you're focusing on something that I don't feel has importance at all which is who the OP is to give a suggestion, rather than discusing the pros/cons the suggestion would have if it was implemented in the game.

 

Thank you, I am not, nor intended to seem like I am. I just don't have the time to be flowery with my language. 

I think I strike to the heart of the matter. You need someone independent of DE who has more expertise and knowledge about how much money, resources, time and manpower such a feature would require. DE's approximate internal structure. Someone who can take all that and put it into numbers. Like hypothetically, if Voidshell feature for all default skins and Prime skins, were roughly the same as crossplay/cross save feature, and one had to be prioritised? Which would you choose? Your decision has a lot of weight on it, money and jobs, and players preferences? You think and claim you know whats best for the health of the game, its so easy and cheap to make a claim like that. For example, I think I know whats best for all of humanity. So everyone should just listen to me. Are you going to listen to me now? Now if we both had really good information. Not just our opinions, but credible, demonstrable evidence, data, like if we were experts on something relevant etc that would be something.

Sure sure suggestion, but in your OP you didn't start off by claiming you know more than DE about the health of the game, that was revealed later. If thats one of the factors behind your suggestion... Or again, if I asked or suggested to DE they should release Wisp Prime and Gauss Prime now, do you think they should? Or would you tell me to wait, its just a matter of time? 

Like do you think DE just sits on stuff randomly and then one of them reads a random forum suggestion and then there is a light bulb and then someone is like "Yo, what if... we release this stuff now? Instead of in a month?" and then their minds are blown and then suddenly decided to give us the stuff we want sooner? We are basically doing the adult equivalent of "Are we there yet?".

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Mirki said:

The Bug allows both Tennogen and Deluxes to use Voidshell materials, if DE will ever release skins for those... is a rather controversial subject

I'm not very familiar with the process so I could be wrong, but doesn't DE purchase some of these skins from the artist(s), which is why console players are allowed to get the items with platinum? Is there any part of the agreement between the artist and DE that would prevent DE from making modifications to the existing skins that they have purchased? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I'm not very familiar with the process so I could be wrong, but doesn't DE purchase some of these skins from the artist(s), which is why console players are allowed to get the items with platinum? Is there any part of the agreement between the artist and DE that would prevent DE from making modifications to the existing skins that they have purchased? 

Im not more knowledgeable on that than any other user, but if the term is ''purchase'' and not ''partnership'' then i'd think they have full right to do whatever they want with them. Altough DE is very entitled and respectful on the Artist's right/idea/intention of any of their works, it could be denied the treatment solely out of that

Edited by Mirki
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Hey, So I've been a software dev for 25+ years now and an amateur 3D modeller since I got hold of Imagine on my Amiga 4000.

Here's the thing.

When you create the UV map for a model you are mapping a 3D surface to a 2D plane that will be used to project 2D textures onto the model via a shader. You are trying to keep a roughly similar amount of texture pixels onscreen for each part of the object it wraps onto, which means you want then roughly the same pixel/texel size in 3D space across the model... this creates a problem because many 3D shapes can't be represented without distorting or splitting up the mapping into segments

Just like an IRL geographical map, like this:

73IW5.png

Now imagine the mapping to get that onto a 3D sphere, you're going to have seams where two parts of the image aren't touching but are touching on the model. And that doesn't matter because the image is such that the line of pixels on one side of the seam are almost a perfect match for the other side of the seam.

This is what DE do all the time for normal skins, seams are hidden by placing then in less observed places and making sure the pixels on either side match as close as they can.

However with the Voidshell-style materials, they just have a single forever repeating texture (actually a bunch of textures but they can be considered a single unit) with a suitable PBR shader to combine them, but they still need to map onto the mesh/3D model and there is no way to ensure that seam isn't horribly ugly automatically.

But what you can do a couple of things, you can make a new UV mapping that minimises seams and allows more distortion or you can design the template texture (the one that defines all the separate shader channels that you can colour) so that seams are hidden by a change in shader channel. It's tough to do, but it's doable if you're starting from scratch. DE knows that there would be significant manual work to almost every skin and some skins might just never look right because of design decisions make when they were created. It would be a big investment of artist time, which would suck away the art resource they have available, and in turn they would be fielding "when will you get to X skin" for years in addition there is no ROI for this unless you double-charge people for the skins they already have 

If I were making the calls on this at DE I would just say we're not going to do it. But DE do like adding new tech to allow greater creativity from their art staff so they did the only thing they could, have a new, separate system, where skins can be designed from scratch to look good in that system.

Jamming the new material shaders onto existing skins is not the problem, this bug solves nothing for DE. It's easily possible that DE already have had a build with these new materials enabled on legacy skins and have reviewed the work needed to bring the skins up to spec, and decided that they simply do not have the resource considering the lack of return.

Edited by SilentMobius
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Hey, So I've been a software dev for 25+ years now and an amateur 3D modeller since I got hold of Imagine on my Amiga 4000.

Here's the thing.

When you create the UV map for a model you are mapping a 3D surface to a 2D plane that will be used to project 2D textures onto the model via a shader. You are trying to keep a roughly similar amount of texture pixels onscreen for each part of the object it wraps onto, which means you want then roughly the same pixel/texel size in 3D space across the model... this creates a problem because many 3D shapes can't be represented without distorting or splitting up the mapping into segments

Just like a IRL geographical map, like this:

73IW5.png

Now imagine the mapping to get that onto a 3D sphere, you're going to have seams where two parts of the image aren't touching but are touching on the model. And that doesn't matter because the image is such that the line of pixels on one side of the seam are almost a perfect match for the other side of the seam.

This is what DE do all the time for normal skins, seams are hidden by placing then in less observed places and making sure the pixels on either side match as close as they can.

However with the Voidshell-style materials, they just have a single forever repeating texture (actually a bunch of textures but they can be considered a single unity) with a suitable PBR shader to combine them, but they still need to map onto the mesh/3D model and there is no way to endure that seam isn't horribly ugly automatically.

But what you can do a couple of things, you can make a new UV mapping that minimises seams and allows more distortion or you can design the template texture (the one that defines all the separate shader channels that you can colour) so that seams are hidden by a change in shader channel. It's tough to do, but it's doable if you're starting from scratch. DE knows that there would be significant manual work to almost every skin and some skins might just never look right because of design decisions make when they were created. It would be a big investment of artist time, which would suck away the art resource they have available, and in turn they would be fielding "when will you get to X skin" for years in addition the is no ROI for this unless you double-charge people for the skins they already have 

If I were making the calls on this at DE I would just say we're not going to do it. But DE do like adding new tech to allow greater creativity from their art staff so they did the only thing they could, have a new, separate system, where skins can be designed from scratch to look good in that system.

Jamming the new material shaders onto existing skins is not the problem, this bug solves nothing for DE. It's easily possible that DE already have had a build with these new materials enabled on legacy skins and have reviewed the work needed to bring the skins up to spec, and decided that they simply do not have the resource considering the lack of return.

Well written, that was easy to understand, plus I've seen model skins when flat they look funny, until they're wrapped onto the model.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Next update:

New giant weapon pack with tons of unique guns... only 3 frames in the game can use.

How about a new unique game mode, you can only play as a MR 12 Nova player?

Now I know, let's only have the game only be online every 3rd tuesday during leap years!!!11

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Surbusken said:

Next update:

New giant weapon pack with tons of unique guns... only 3 frames in the game can use.

How about a new unique game mode, you can only play as a MR 12 Nova player?

Now I know, let's only have the game only be online every 3rd tuesday during leap years!!!11

Oh the drama! lol

Sassy Drama Queen GIF

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Next update:

New giant weapon pack with tons of unique guns... only 3 frames in the game can use.

How about a new unique game mode, you can only play as a MR 12 Nova player?

Now I know, let's only have the game only be online every 3rd tuesday during leap years!!!11

Thanks for confirming my suspicions that you're here only to throw crap at DE.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bug really only shows why DE doesnt want to do it, it will just be too much work. It doesnt matter if it is possible through a bug or not, and that it might look "ok" on some frames, what matters is they'd have to go through them all so it looks better than ok.

DE never said it wasnt possible, just that it would be too much work to go through it all compared to making 1 skin for each frame. 50-ish skins is far less work than going through 500 skins.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The bug really only shows why DE doesnt want to do it, it will just be too much work. It doesnt matter if it is possible through a bug or not, and that it might look "ok" on some frames, what matters is they'd have to go through them all so it looks better than ok.

DE never said it wasnt possible, just that it would be too much work to go through it all compared to making 1 skin for each frame. 50-ish skins is far less work than going through 500 skins.

Buyers will decide if it looks ok or not. It potentially opens up to more than ten thousands of possible texture combination even only 1% works there are still a thousand. And the bug already showed it's more than possible for the texture thingy to apply on all skins.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...