Dissipate nerf: DE nerfs everything except what should be nerfed because theyve designed themselves into a corner, creatively and financially

[BIGF0O7]

Bramma needs a nerf. Plasmor needs a nerf. Ignis needs a nerf. Wukong needs a nerf. Saryn needs a nerf. Xaku needs a nerf. 

Anything that is “press button to win” needs a nerf. Dissipate was not press button to win. It was easy to screw up, and a huge security risk in high level content if you didnt time your use of it right. It did not need a nerf.

Now, its effectively completely useless, not only because it works at a fraction of the efficiency that its previous iteration did (comparable to void dash vs void sling), but it also occupies an operator arcane slot, which is a big decision in the best conditions. Its a joke now.

DE claims to have nerfed it because it overshadowed zenurik and thats a problem because they wanted to promote diversity of different focus school uses, or something i guess. The actual consequence? Now everyone that doesnt have r5 energize is gonna just have to go back to using zenurik and literally no other focus school. Of course this is fine and well if you already have rank 5 arcane energize (which by far and away overshadows zenurik, nevermind energy pads), but if you dont, hello zenurik, my old (and even more underwheming now than before the focus changes) friend.

There are so, SO many things in this game that make Warframe an unfulfilling, brain dead, easy beyond forgiveness of a game, but instead of actually balancing the game and forcing players to utilize not only the gear they grind so hard for against meaningfully challenging enemies, but also their skills as gamers that the gamefeel, movement and mechanics—unrivaled in the mmo or arpg genres—that beg to be used efficiently but are never required to because, again, press button to win, DE chooses to routinely (and spitefully) nerf the only things that arent game breaking (and usually make the game actually fun) so that they can lie to their critics and say they try to make engaging content without actually inevitably rocking the boat in the way it necessarily would if they were to actually put their money where their mouth is and balance the game (note: nerf press button to win weapons/frames) as any professional game studio running an mmo would. And keep in mind, DE might be small, but they are in fact an established game studio. 

Ultimately, DE has designed themselves into a corner. Their guiding philosophy of making as much content as accessible as possible to as many people as possible—corporate speak for “appealing to casuals and new players to keep the revolving door of new players who spend 20-60 bucks on plat packages and then quit the game”—is antithetical to any type of rpg format, be it an arpg, an mmo or looter shooter, all of which warframe can and often is interchangeably described as, depending on who you ask (its certainly more than just a shooter). Rpgs must necessarily be exclusive. Thats what makes them rewarding. Try->fail->get gud/get better gear->fail again but not as badly->get gudder/get betterer gear->succeed->rinse->repeat.
 

Thats it.

Progress gating is the whole bedrock of rpgs and this is a consistent truth in every serious entry of the genre going back to table top rpgs. But DE knows they cant do that not only because they know they’ve allowed the nuke meta to get so out of control, if they rocked the boat they’d lose half their existing playerbase, but also a paranoia—and in my view, an extremely condescending paranoia—that newer players would be turned off by the difficulty of the content or by the lack of access to certain types of content and lack of microtransaction options for bypassing those tasks (warframe isnt p2w per se, but lets not kid ourselves that 5 bucks for 75 plat here and there wont save you years of grinding and progress, let alone initiate packs and the like).

 

So full circle, the internal logic of de’s philosophy is to do everything they can to  nerf everything except the things that need nerfing, so if something like dissipate comes along that, while not easy, isnt nearly as difficult to obtain as r5 energize, can in certain situations perform equally well to energize, frankly speaking, its bad for business. R5 energize being optional means plat sales are optional. Plat sales being optional means DE doesnt make money, because casuals/new players aren’t spending money on plat when they can afford dissipate for much, much less. 

 

And while dissipate may be the example today, this same general trend is more or less the epicenter of why warframe is in the state that it is. New players spend money and vets dont. So anything that threatens the whaling habbits of new players—like offering an alternative to energize or making new players have to work for progress, which would require nerfing quite a bit of nuking stuff thats fairly accessible early game—is always gonna bite the dust because for all of DE’s faults, they do seem to care about community feedback, and id even wager that they might even agree with me on some of this stuff about the state of the game being a broken mess. But they know they cant really do anything about it because it threatens their bottom line, so all they can do is make changes no one asked for (void dash) and nerf things no one wants nerfed so they can say “look, we’re balancing stuff!!”.

But they arent. They’re just making an already broken game worse. And it sucks because the promise of warframe is so good—the frames, the weapons, the movement, the tech, the lore, the whole package, its all so satisfying, but with the exception of cascade and armageddon to a lesser extent, which are steps in the right direction, all we ever get is bad nerfs and cosmetics.
 

 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

It did not need a nerf.

According to the devs apparently it did.

4 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

Now everyone that doesnt have r5 energize is gonna just have to go back to using zenurik and literally no other focus school.

I very much doubt that considering the other schools are a lot better than they were.

 

6 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

And it sucks because the promise of warframe is so good—the frames, the weapons, the movement, the tech, the lore, the whole package,

Funny how only one of those things you mentioned uses energy.

[BIGF0O7]

 

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

According to the devs apparently it did.

I very much doubt that considering the other schools are a lot better than they were.

 

Funny how only one of those things you mentioned uses energy.

Cool dude

[(XBOX)Shodian]

1 minute ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

 

Cool dude

Thank you. 👍 

[BIGF0O7]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Thank you. 👍 

No prob, always appreciative of someone who makes it clear out the gate the lack of their ability to think critically about stuff. Saves me the trouble of having to try to detect in the form of a long and fruitless discussion with them, so ty for saving me from that labor. Now get outta here and go back to enjoying your big shiny red numbers ya lil rascal!

[(PSN)goonie4good]

I tend to agree with you. If you’re going to nerf it into the ground making it completely useless then what’s the point of even having it in game. I thought it worked well with keeping a fun flow to the gameplay. I like chaining it in the air across rooms and stuff, it was fun. DE seems to have a hard time finding a middle ground when they do stuff like this. 

[(PSN)pedrochass2005]

13 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

Is  always gonna bite the dust because for all of DE’s faults, they do seem to care about community feedback, and id even wager that they might even agree with me on some of this stuff about the state of the game being a broken mess. But they know they cant really do anything about it because it threatens their bottom line, 

.
 

 

And your response is ranting like a child saying that they don't know how to make a game because your new toy got rebalanced, i wonder why they don't fix the aoe meta

[trst]

While you're not wrong that those things also need nerfs their reasoning for the Dissipate is reasonable. Why use the focus school that's only used to generate infinite energy when you could do the same with one Arcane? Especially when there isn't much competition between Operator Arcanes.

Also there are more ways to get energy besides Zenurik or Energized and Dissipate is still perfectly usable especially with a frame/loadout with any enemy gathering ability.

[Tyreaus]

In terms of new players, the nerf has the opposite of the effects stated here. Prior to the nerf, Dissipate was viewed as powerful, making it popular, which meant players who had it had the excuse to charge a premium for trading it to newer players. Now that it's weaker, that excuse doesn't exist. Ergo, new players probably aren't having to spend as much plat to get that set.

Conversely, in the scope of newer players, the place where Dissipate might be desired (i.e. prior to getting Zenurik) hasn't changed. Even if it's weaker, newer players are liable to look to it as a fix for their energy problems until they can patchwork it with Zenurik - if they so choose to.

It's also not really weak enough to have no effect on Energize trades. Even before, it was a conditional replacement based on what your Operator build looks like, your energy orb supply, access to Zenurik...now that it's a tad worse, there's a bit more contention, but it's still largely conditional to the player's build and desired playstyle. A number of people have said that the execution of Dissipate isn't their style. Energize is entirely passive. Those sorts of differences and preferences don't go away from a stat change.

All in all, it doesn't really feel like it has much to do with new players. I think whatever effects Dissipate might have on the new player market aren't likely to go away from this nerf, and changes that might occur (in economic terms) don't seem to be to DE's favour.

I think this is largely a case of "on paper" balancing gone awry. There was a sort of recognition that you could get large portions of energy via Dissipate by spamming it in a group of enemies. In theory, that would render other forms of energy generation moot. What that failed to account for was the player factor: when the arcane becomes available, it's expense, the method of its use (being much more active than even Zenurik), other benefits of using Zenurik versus other schools, build setups (that may or may not like eating up an Operator arcane), time expenditures, squad interference...all those sorts of game dynamics that, despite the arcane being really good, brought into question whether (or how much) a player would want to use it.

[Wolfdoggie]

They don't want us to spam it but it's effect and mechanic is still spammable. There's no indication of a cooldown so you'll end up using it and wasting energy for it to do nothing. They need to revert this change or change the method of activating it to something more telegraphed and understandable. I noticed orbs were 'buggy' but had no idea the mechanics were changed till someone told me it was altered because nothing is explained or shown in-game.

It was also nice to not have to rely on Zenurik's energy for a handful of frames. Make Zenurik do something else like more power strength/duration or something caster related that isn't energy focused. It should be a good thing that SOMETHING FINALLY OVERSHADOWS IT on some frames.

[TeaHands]

31 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

Dissipate was not press button to win. It was easy to screw up, and a huge security risk in high level content if you didnt time your use of it right

This is a straight up lie. Dissipate is VERY easy to use and was very easy to spam. It's still pretty easy to build up a lot of energy fairly quickly. Also, unless I'm missing something I'm pretty sure you can stay in void mode while using dissipate.

It's now even omni directional, you can hit multiple enemies around you by looking at your radar.

[BIGF0O7]

16 hours ago, (PSN)pedrochass2005 said:

And your response is ranting like a child saying that they don't know how to make a game because your new toy got rebalanced, i wonder why they don't fix the aoe meta

So your argument is that DE doesnt fix their game because players on forums dont make cohesive enough arguments? God, thats an even more harsh criticism than anything I laid out against them. Like, a dev studio that can only do their jobs when forum users are super awesome at posting? Sounds like a pretty awful studio to me

 

16 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

They don't want us to spam it but it's effect and mechanic is still spammable. There's no indication of a cooldown so you'll end up using it and wasting energy for it to do nothing. They need to revert this change or change the method of activating it to something more telegraphed and understandable. I noticed orbs were 'buggy' but had no idea the mechanics were changed till someone told me it was altered because nothing is explained or shown in-game.

It was also nice to not have to rely on Zenurik's energy for a handful of frames. Make Zenurik do something else like more power strength/duration or something caster related that isn't energy focused. It should be a good thing that SOMETHING FINALLY OVERSHADOWS IT on some frames.

I disagree that its still spammable. Idk how much you used it before but that 1.5 second cooldown is a pretty huge downgrade from the utility it had in high enemy density game modes. It was also pretty useful in stuff like pt and eidos, but Its universally useless now. 10 enemies netting 100 energy is nothing compared to spamming 3 enemies for like 500 energy in less than 2 seconds.

 

16 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

This is a straight up lie. Dissipate is VERY easy to use and was very easy to spam. It's still pretty easy to build up a lot of energy fairly quickly. Also, unless I'm missing something I'm pretty sure you can stay in void mode while using dissipate.

It's now even omni directional, you can hit multiple enemies around you by looking at your radar.

I didnt say it was hard to spam, i said it wasnt “press button to win”, in that it did put you at a risk to use, unlike press button to win stuff that doesnt. Void mode runs out. Frames arent invulnerable on transference in. If youre doing anything beyond starchart survival—basically anything in steel path—it was very easy to screw up and have your operator die and then transference static place your frame in a vulnerable position. Whatever the case, it wasnt broken. 

[Gamma745]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

So your argument is that DE doesnt fix their game because players on forums dont make cohesive enough arguments? God, thats an even more harsh criticism than anything I laid out against them. Like, a dev studio that can only do their jobs when forum users are super awesome at posting? Sounds like a pretty awful studio to me

It's more about basic human nature of not wanting to deal with people who is basically just crying and screaming. Even if you understand what they're saying, would you want to listen to someone who is insulting you every second sentence?

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

 10 enemies netting 100 energy is nothing compared to spamming 3 enemies for like 500 energy in less than 2 seconds.

you just showed why the previous version was a issue.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

If youre doing anything beyond starchart survival—basically anything in steel path—it was very easy to screw up and have your operator die and then transference static place your frame in a vulnerable position. Whatever the case, it wasnt broken. 

When did they start balancing for Steel Path?

[BIGF0O7]

1 minute ago, Gamma745 said:

It's more about basic human nature of not wanting to deal with people who is basically just crying and screaming. Even if you understand what they're saying, would you want to listen to someone who is insulting you every second sentence?

Yes, because im an adult, not a teenager whos more concerned with the esthetic of civility than the actual contents of someones argument

[Wolfdoggie]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

I disagree that its still spammable. 

You don't... agree? What? It still functions the same exact way, you just smack people with a wave that generates nothing when it's on cooldown.

Also since the Operator can still loot the orbs for some reason you have to be even more careful that he doesn't touch any of them since we get much less of them now.

[Josh486]

Dissipate is still really good. I don’t get the big issue, it did sort of need a nerf considering how easy it is to use. While I agree that other stuff needs it too, I doubt DE wants to nerf AOE weapons at this point, even if it would be healthy for the game

[TeaHands]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

i said it wasnt “press button to win”, in that it did put you at a risk to use, unlike press button to win stuff that doesnt.

There is no risk, you are invincible in void mode.

7 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

Void mode runs out.

Good thing all you need is energy to stay in void mode and Dissipate makes it very easy to maintain your energy.

10 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

If youre doing anything beyond starchart survival—basically anything in steel path—it was very easy to screw up and have your operator die and then transference static place your frame in a vulnerable position.

I tested the new changes in Steelpath Mot, Dissipate still works very well in Steelpath thanks to high enemy density.

12 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

Whatever the case, it wasnt broken

It was very obviously OP. And it still works well.

[Karsaros]

Honestly I've advocated for nerfing Explosive weapons for litterally years because why use single target rifles like Vectis aka my first ever Sniper Rifle that carried me from Mars to Sedna, why use those rifles over things that can effortlessly clear the room with a single shot? The answer? its the players who are entitled and its the players who want "Press X to win", Hell I remember when this was supposed to be a horde slayer with stealth aspects and back then when I was rolling with a sniper rifle I played the role of "If im seen once I have to abort mission".

[(PSN)pedrochass2005]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

So your argument is that DE doesnt fix their game because players on forums dont make cohesive enough arguments? God, thats an even more harsh criticism than anything I laid out against them. Like, a dev studio that can only do their jobs when forum users are super awesome at posting? Sounds like a pretty awful studio to me

Yeah because the community gets very happy when DE goes against their will as you post proves, in the same post you say DE doesn't balance broken itens because of player backlash, you rant like a child because your toy got rebalanced and say this is killing the game, its extreme case of hypocritical whataboutism

[gamingchair1121]

fun fact: the reason why people use zenurik is because warframe's energy economy is garbage. without zenurik or energize, you don't get to use abilities. that's why people use them. it was a good thing that something is better than zenurik. if they wanted people to use the other schools they need to either make energy economy better or revert emergence dissipate to how it was before.

yeah sure some frames like limbo garuda and harrow can counter it but limbo needs to afk in the rift, garuda needs to sacrifice half her health, and harrow needs energy to even do it

[BIGF0O7]

16 hours ago, (PSN)pedrochass2005 said:

Yeah because the community gets very happy when DE goes against their will as you post proves, in the same post you say DE doesn't balance broken itens because of player backlash, you rant like a child because your toy got rebalanced and say this is killing the game, its extreme case of hypocritical whataboutism

Buddy, im not gonna rewrite my entire post but I very clearly laid out the distinction between stuff that should be nerfed and dissipate. Your argument is basically “you say you want less forrest fires, yet you cry when you cant use your stove. Curious!” Like, No offense but your take is very, very bad

 

16 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

There is no risk, you are invincible in void mode.

Good thing all you need is energy to stay in void mode and Dissipate makes it very easy to maintain your energy.

I tested the new changes in Steelpath Mot, Dissipate still works very well in Steelpath thanks to high enemy density.

It was very obviously OP. And it still works well.

Lol alright bud, agree to disagree I guess. Idk how to argue against a high threshold for low quality game design but im glad you can enjoy it. Cheers!

[vanaukas]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

I disagree that its still spammable. Idk how much you used it before but that 1.5 second cooldown is a pretty huge downgrade from the utility it had in high enemy density game modes. It was also pretty useful in stuff like pt and eidos, but Its universally useless now. 10 enemies netting 100 energy is nothing compared to spamming 3 enemies for like 500 energy in less than 2 seconds.

Could you read this objectivly till the end and still sustain the opinion of your first sentence? Because spamming 3 enemies to get 500 energy in 2seconds sounds hella broken to me.

The moment I've noticed how spammable it was I knew it was going to get nerfed, that was on day 1 of the update. It was so obvious that I didn't understood (and I still don't) why it was added to the game in that shape.

If you are worried of the use of the arcane in "high enemy density game modes", I may remind you that the cooldown of 1.5s is on the same enemy, not the rest. High enemy density game modes are in fact the modes that benefits the arcane right now.

[BIGF0O7]

4 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Could you read this objectivly till the end and still sustain the opinion of your first sentence? Because spamming 3 enemies to get 500 energy in 2seconds sounds hella broken to me.

The moment I've noticed how spammable it was I knew it was going to get nerfed, that was on day 1 of the update. It was so obvious that I didn't understood (and I still don't) why it was added to the game in that shape.

If you are worried of the use of the arcane in "high enemy density game modes", I may remind you that the cooldown of 1.5s is on the same enemy, not the rest. High enemy density game modes are in fact the modes that benefits the arcane right now.

Yes i absolutely can, because i dont need to maintain energy at the rate i could with dissipate before the changes in any content *except* high enemy density content. Now I cant. Thats the problem. Spammable doesnt mean broken, especially when spamming comes with quite a few risks unique to high enemy density content, be it acolytes or multiple eximus or any of the other threats that can one shot operator, and in turn one shot your frame on transference static. This is different than say most nuking weapons or frames where if you screw up, just recast/fire again to correct for your error and you’re absolutely fine.