July 2022 Riven Dispositions

[Rydian]

2 hours ago, XHADgaming said:

Sarpa Nerf? That is strange given we have the vasilok for armor strip

I'd guess that it revolves more around availability.  Vastilok isn't normally available in-game, it was a stream reward and then Baro has brought it twice.  Sarpa is a two-weapon build, but both blueprints are in the market for credits.

1 hour ago, gamingchair1121 said:

yet another reason why de needs to make dispo rely on a weapons power and not usage for some reason

That's how they tried to do it originally, but there were lots of cases where their assumptions didn't match what players would do in-game due to things like...
- Various bonuses from frames/mods that they didn't consider ended up buffing some weapons more than others.
- Some bonuses they added on to weapons (that DE thought would make the weapons stronger or more useful) being ignored by the players in practice.
- etc.

20 minutes ago, Prisma_Excalibur_Prime said:

rivens for weaker guns basically pointless outside of utility picks

Yeah, maximum riven disposition would need to be much higher before people would willingly consider using a Dera riven to take the gun into high-end stuff, for example.

[Numerounius]

2 hours ago, XHADgaming said:

Sarpa Nerf? That is strange given we have the vasilok for armor strip

Nothing on the high end dispo melees? It will be interesting to see how this unfolds moving forward with Khora Prime and her whipclaw ability.

Furax Wraith?- Why are we nerfing weapons for reasons other than their power level? Since the main reason for its heavy usage is [amalgram furax body count] I fear this is going to become a serious issue after Khora Prime releases when people use weapons regardless of their power level.

 

20 minutes ago, Prisma_Excalibur_Prime said:

This is probably gonna be one of my hottest warframe takes in a long while, if you disagree with me, by all means let's discuss it, just don't be an asshat about it

these dispositions are the result of balancing being based on the usage popularity of a given weapon by players of high Mastery Rank and internal rankings based on the "strength" of a weapon according to the wiki. But it seems very obvious, especially based on the changes in this patch, that it's primarily the "usage popularity" part which determines a rivens strength. Basically, the cumulative  % of players simply equipping a certain weapon for "use" in missions. This is inherently flawed because this is not a reliable metric to measure a weapons strength in a game where combat efficiency is affected by so many variables

On the surface, sure, the powerful meta weapons get used more often, so the disposition will be lower and in theory isn't as worthwhile as the potential for a much stronger riven in a lesser used/weaker weapon. But this falls apart when you realise meta weapons perform just inherently so much better that it makes rivens for weaker guns basically pointless outside of utility picks, because why bother with a stronger riven for a weak weapon, when you could have a mediocre riven for an insane weapon? the curernt meta weapon picks literally prove this point and have done for months if not years, especially since Warframe has evolved into a horde-kill-everything-as-fast-as-possible-shooter over the years

And on the subject of utility weapons picks, we end up with situations like this, with these disposition changes in this patch, where we have weapons with super niché usages like stat-sticks, or the utility behind the Furax's amalgam mod, as a great example. The rivens for these weapons get nerfed because they have high "usage popularity", but in-game they're not actually being used as normal weapons. They're being used solely to buff some other already better weapon or ability. This gameplay strat isn't the problem, but because dispos are based on "usage", it basically results in the rivens of weaker/less used weapons being made worse than they potentially should be, which defeats the purpose of rivens being made to give these weaker less meta weapons a chance to truly shine. The weapon is still weak because the riven is now weaker than it should be. You've taken away the chance for weak weapons to be strong just because it's being used to fill a different need of buffing a completely different weapon.  And depending on the weapon, it doesn't necessarily mean the It's even being "used" at all, just brought with into a mission at minimum because of mods with passive buffs like Amalgam Furax and the Vigilante mod set.

Dispositions should be based on something else entirely, or even just remove the "usage popularity" from the disposition criteria and have them judged solely on the "internal rankings based on the strength of a weapon", for example the potential burst/sustained DPS of a weapons base stats.

This would:

1. Truly expose which weapons are actually piss weak mastery fodder because they'd finally get reliably decent and strength rivens to bring them up to the higher potential of current meta choices
2. Actually encourage varied weapon picks across the board as people experiment with typically weaker weapons and realise "hey, the miter isn't just a meme with bubble pop utility, it's actually viable now" Because all weapons would, at the very least, be able to kill basic enemies in all content the game has to offer
3. Weapons picked for utility reasons would still be picked for utility because of their utility, except now they're also able to at least support the player in a normal gameplay environment outside of whatever one specific mission you were originally using it for
4. The riven market could stabilise. Rivens for meta/utility weapons would still be high because of their weapons innate meta strengths, but rivens for others would stop fluctuating because they'd just all have the potential to be a good riven. You could still charge high/low prices for specific rivens with specific stats based on how much effort you put into rolling it a hundred times to get those stats, and there would still be people who would willingly pay higher prices to skip stat rolling altogether to just buy your "god roll"   

I want to stress, my issue isn't with how weapons are used, by all means have your utility weapons and stat-sticks, it's with rivens being based on a misrepresented statistic which causes a weapon power imbalance that rivens were meant to be the fix for.

_{Also, let us lock certain stats for a high kuva/resource cost when we roll them g'damn.} 

Agreed! I came to that same conclusion when I wrote up a comment expressing concern with riven Disposition changes moving forward:

As for riven locking, didn't DE say they don't want to change the mechanics of the riven rerolling system?

[Prisma_Excalibur_Prime]

6 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

As for riven locking, didn't DE say they don't want to change the mechanics of the riven rerolling system?

Probably yeah, not gonna stop us from wanting it though lmao sure would make getting the roll you want easier if you don't want to trade for an existing one

[Cookie_Monsta_]

Ogris takes a nerf again?

Last update it went down and now down again?

Looks like pretty much most weapons I use on most of my frame loadouts are getting a nerf.

[Mag_Gaming]

So you´re telling me kuva ogris (don´t get me wrong it´s also cringe but mainly because there is no forced black energy on every kuva ogris in pubs) is getting nerfed while the kuva zarr/bramma continue with their 0.6 dispo?

 

You know... weapons 3/4 people in every pub have equipped?

 

And you´re telling me that the tenet arca plasmor is more powerful than the kuva zarr/bramma resulting in it having a 0.55 dispo while those abominations have 0.6?

You´re telling me that the tenet arca plasmor has 12m(zarr) / 14m(bramma) AoE that goes through walls and clusterbomb-like effects that all apply their own status?

 

What game are you even playing?

[Oorel]

On 2022-07-14 at 5:56 PM, (PSN)Big-Swole601 said:

Wow Nerfed Orgis glad im finally MR 30 and can leave this game.  

youll be back

 

@VhwatGoes excellent write-up.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

To echo others here... You're nerfing furax wraith likely bc your stats show it's being used a lot. The catch is almost no one is using it bc it's good. It's used for AoE weapons. Did y'all really not consider that?

[fo3nixz]

so whe gona use mk-1 furax now ? LOL (weapon dont matter) that nerf was pointless

[(XBOX)Kuhl MC]

I wish, there would be someone in this company, who'd know there own game well enough to understand what they are actually doing... Furax nerf is just a meme, nobody plays this weapon for actual melee combat...

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

have new weapons start at 1.00 riven disp would be better id think.

[CodeVauban]

Guys I promise to never use amalgam furax body count again, can you please undo the nerf please? I actually like and use Furax Wraith somehat often, it's actually a really decent melee with a lot of quirks to it. You know the nerf isn't even deserved, don't do me like this.

[quxier]

6 hours ago, XHADgaming said:

Sarpa Nerf? That is strange given we have the vasilok for armor strip

Isn't Vastilok harder to get? I mean Sarpa is afair from Clan research.

[Numerounius]

6 minutes ago, quxier said:

Isn't Vastilok harder to get? I mean Sarpa is afair from Clan research.

Sarpa is also hard to get with 3K Cryotic and a forma requirement too. 

Not quite as rare as the Vastilok but I assume there would be plenty of High Mastery Rank players with the Vastilok to use from when it was given out.

[Luciole77]

why nerf kuva ayanga? Nobody use this weapon....

I honestly don't understand...

[-AncientWarrior-]

2 minutes ago, Luciole77 said:

why nerf kuva ayanga? Nobody use this weapon....

I honestly don't understand...

Yep and neither do DE.. they have no idea what so ever about this game..DE have become so disappointing over the last 2-3 years.. sadly.

[ShogunGunshow]

Furax Wraith getting nerfed because of Amalgam Body Count is just lol.

How about you nerf the mod?

[KIREEK]

 

2 hours ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

have new weapons start at 1.00 riven disp would be better id think.

It was like that at 1st, however prime weapons and new content would get nerfed due to power and usage, that is why it is 0,5 now. Sadly this has it's own share of problems with weak weapons like alternox taking ages to get a buff in the riven to try and change its usage, or, prime weapons on release being weaker than the regular variant.

[DryMind]

58 минут назад, Luciole77 сказал:

why nerf kuva ayanga? Nobody use this weapon....

I honestly don't understand...

Cuz it's more then other used in loadouts, like sarpa and furax, i, as LMR2. also have it equipped, but never summon Necramech with it. So it's counts as used, but in fact never used, like furax or sarpa.

But in ayanga case it can be actual usage, cuz it's good aoe mech weapon.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

8 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

 

It was like that at 1st, however prime weapons and new content would get nerfed due to power and usage, that is why it is 0,5 now. Sadly this has it's own share of problems with weak weapons like alternox taking ages to get a buff in the riven to try and change its usage, or, prime weapons on release being weaker than the regular variant.

i getcha, so they chose the "always buffing new items" design rather than the more balanced design because it could upset people if their new weapon had its disp drop, making their riven weaker.

[PIWpom]

Thanks for nerfing Knell prime i hate that gun anyway , and its very bad for eidolons

[Numerikuu]

The Furax nerf needs a review, since it's 'usage rate' isn't true usage. Most of its 'usage' is because of the Amalgam mod which AoE'rs take advantage of.

Meanwhile the few of us that actually use the weapon are getting the shaft... because of the AoE meta. 🥴

Reverse the riven nerf. Nerf the Amalgam mod by removing the 20% blast radius to launchers and replace it with something else.

[Pakaku]

10 hours ago, XHADgaming said:

But Knell Prime? I heard that it become a de-facto eidolon weapon of choice so that is probably why it got hit so hard despite being a very recent release. Haven't looked into it too much but I guess I have to now.

Probably one of the best pistols in the game if you can get that initial headshot, and I say that as someone who doesn't play Eidolons, just the regular game. Would be a pretty huge shame if the only reason it gets nerfed is because of overuse in one small part of the overall game.

[Duality52]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Kuhl MC said:

I wish, there would be someone in this company, who'd know there own game well enough to understand what they are actually doing... Furax nerf is just a meme, nobody plays this weapon for actual melee combat...

While I can agree how inconsequential the Furax Disposition nerf was, since that has nothing to do with why it's mainly used (Amalgam Body Count), it's not that simple. Both DE and the community backed themselves into this corner where upon attempting the slightest of nerfs to AoE, the community backlash is too severe for DE to handle.

Outside of Rivens, take the Kuva Bramma and Kuva Nukor "nerfs". These nerfs did very little to the overall power of those weapons that made them the Arsenal weapon outliers they still are today. Yet people complained for "taking the fun away". for taking away a mere fraction of their power.

14 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Probably one of the best pistols in the game if you can get that initial headshot, and I say that as someone who doesn't play Eidolons, just the regular game. Would be a pretty huge shame if the only reason it gets nerfed is because of overuse in one small part of the overall game.

Even then and even if Rivens potentially costed people Platinum/money, weapons like the Knell (Prime) don't need them to be optimal. The nerf to the Kuva Ogris's disposition does little due to sheer abundance of Nightwatch Napalm and Primed Firestorm. The reactions to the nerfed dispositions (aside from the Furax's, that one was nonsensical) are treating as if the entire weapon got nerfed.

[gamingchair1121]

5 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Kuva Bramma and Kuva Nukor "nerfs". These nerfs did very little to the overall power of those weapons that made them the Arsenal weapon outliers they still are today. Yet people complained for "taking the fun away"

how can that possibly be taking fun away that's making more weapons viable

[Duality52]

1 hour ago, gamingchair1121 said:

how can that possibly be taking fun away that's making more weapons viable

The statement is a bit baffling; majority of the equipment in the game are viable even in the Steel Path. The meta and power creep causes player perspective to deem weapons with lacking AoE as "worthless" or "fodder".

It's not only the mentality of "nerfs bad, only buff", but how the meta steered players into using very monotone loadouts. This leads to what DE fail to keep in check of, of how the "fun gets optimized out of the game" by the players.