Throwing Knives in 2022.

[Flackenstien]

I remember when thrown secondary weapons were introduced. The game was much different back then; it took a decent amount of time for your Braton or Boltor to take down an enemy.   
With the addition of the Kunai, we had a weapon that satisfyingly took down enemies with a single well-aimed and stylish throw to the head.   
Your Warframe truly felt like a ninja, now that parkour and throwing knives were added.   
This was a great time, and a great feeling.   

I'd like to see throwing knives be brought back into the spotlight.   
I'll suggest the following: 
● Heavy damage increases to all of them.   
● Stealth kill combo multiplier. (A few Mods to match, similar to some Melee Combo Mods.)  
● Overall stat adjustments for better differentiation between the different weapons.  
Kunai: Made to be well-rounded with decent, but not spectacular, Crit and Status. (Release the Prime, too.)   
Hikou: Tweak IPS weighting to focus on inflicting Slash Status. Remain the fastest.    
Spira: Remain the Crit beasts they are now, just buffed.   
Fusilai: Make its altfire Silent, and give all its attacks more balanced Crit and Status for flexibility.   
Despair: As the rarest weapon in the bunch, give it the highest raw damage (I'm talking in the ballpark of 58dmg -> 250dmg), but reduce the rate of fire. It'll make the most of the Stealth combo multiplier I suggested.  

Edited July 21, 2022 by Flackenstien

[PollexMessier]

In agreement with most of this. You just didn't bring up the primes which should probably be addressed.

Throwing knife type weapons require so much more skill to use they really should be MUCH stronger. I really wanted to main throwing weapons and bows starting the game cus I was never really much of a gun person and was pretty disappointed at how under powered they were. We have Nataruk now for bows but thrown sidearms have really been left by the wayside.

The only one I'd say is any good is the staticore. Which a lot of people would reasonably disagree with me that it's a throwing weapon. and it's not a stealth weapon. Since the changes to aoe it's really fallen off where it use to be tho. Which is very upsetting cus it's one of the few secondaries in the game I actually like. DE's infuriating tendency to totally neuter weapons that use to be really popular into near unuseable status when they actually decide to nerf something. Tho obviously it shouldn't be getting a buff as large as the non aoe ones. But it's damage could be doubled and it still wouldn't contend with kuva nukor.

Seriously tho getting a headshot with spira or hiko prime should be one-shoting most enemies for the effort it takes to actually hit anything with them. Especially when you can unga bunga Kuva bramma an acolite to death in 2 shots just aiming in their general vicinity

[taiiat]

for them to be relevant again that Accuracy&triangulation nerf would also need to be reverted.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

I agree about throwable secondaries being cool and absolutely needing a second look at by DE, but I can't see how they are supposed to do more damage than a confetti pistol that transforms into a (sort of) auto grenade launcher, to put an example, nor why would they do more damage in general than a bullet, except for headshots, there it becomes arguable.

But, then again, Warframe is very odd.
Frames have the strength to directly rip a machine's exposed pieces directly from it's body (Exploiter Orb), and the speed + agility to throw knives and inhuman speeds, wield guns of a bit more their size and still be perfectly manoeuvrable with them (at the cost of half the aim-glide time), but they don't have the strength to throw a knife fast enough so it reaches its target instantly in spite of these being forged precisely in the most aerodynamic and lethal shape possible, with a few exceptions like Pox.

Using both real life logic and Warframe logic, it makes no sense that throwing knives are in such a weak spot.

[Flackenstien]

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

In agreement with most of this. You just didn't bring up the primes which should probably be addressed.

I didn't talk about the Primes because I thought it was redundant to mention. To me, the strongest version of an item is what I'd think of first, anyways.  

But yeah, I do think that throwing knives should be lethal in The Steel Path. It's the main reason I suggested the Stealth kill combo multipliers, so that they had a way to scale past modding that still took some effort and works best with frames most fitting to use such weapons.  

There are other throwing weapons that do deserve to be buffed, but they're all so different from the knives that I wanted to be to-the-point with this post and not drag it out talking about everything else.

[RazerXPrime]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

I agree about throwable secondaries being cool and absolutely needing a second look at by DE, but I can't see how they are supposed to do more damage than a confetti pistol that transforms into a (sort of) auto grenade launcher, to put an example, nor why would they do more damage in general than a bullet, except for headshots, there it becomes arguable.

But, then again, Warframe is very odd.
Frames have the strength to directly rip a machine's exposed pieces directly from it's body (Exploiter Orb), and the speed + agility to throw knives and inhuman speeds, wield guns of a bit more their size and still be perfectly manoeuvrable with them (at the cost of half the aim-glide time), but they don't have the strength to throw a knife fast enough so it reaches its target instantly in spite of these being forged precisely in the most aerodynamic and lethal shape possible, with a few exceptions like Pox.

Using both real life logic and Warframe logic, it makes no sense that throwing knives are in such a weak spot.

Let's not add realism to this game, because then throwing knives would be even less effective as a weapon. Ninja throwing knives and other pop culture renditions of it are extremely exaggerated and are almost as far from the truth as me saying I can "fly" when I actually meant "jump". Ask any professional knife thrower. They can be useful situationally, but hardly ever deadly.

[Tiltskillet]

Remember when DE discovered that their weapon stat tiering system had inflated their perceived power of bows?  And so bows got a significant power increase as a correction?

I'm convinced it's the same with the precision thrown secondaries. 

[Kainosh]

I think Classic, "single arrow" Bows need this too.    At relatively high level they don't do enough damage to stealth kill.    

 

I wouldn't add any "Combo" system tho.    "Stealth kill" is something that happens when opportunity arrives.  You cant be ready and ramped up for a suddenly appeared enemy that you need to eliminate quickly.    I mean......outside of "extermination stealth xp farming".

[PollexMessier]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

I agree about throwable secondaries being cool and absolutely needing a second look at by DE, but I can't see how they are supposed to do more damage than a confetti pistol that transforms into a (sort of) auto grenade launcher, to put an example, nor why would they do more damage in general than a bullet, except for headshots, there it becomes arguable.

But, then again, Warframe is very odd.
Frames have the strength to directly rip a machine's exposed pieces directly from it's body (Exploiter Orb), and the speed + agility to throw knives and inhuman speeds, wield guns of a bit more their size and still be perfectly manoeuvrable with them (at the cost of half the aim-glide time), but they don't have the strength to throw a knife fast enough so it reaches its target instantly in spite of these being forged precisely in the most aerodynamic and lethal shape possible, with a few exceptions like Pox.

Using both real life logic and Warframe logic, it makes no sense that throwing knives are in such a weak spot.

Here's another point to that.Weapons in the game are extremely advanced compared to real weapons.

Throwing knives have energy. Why do they have energy if they're really just as simple as real throwing knives? plus the fact that mods work on them in just the same way as they do guns. Obviously the real answer to this is gameplay and visuals. But an in universe explanation could be things like: The blades accelerate themselves through the air. They discharge some sort of energy into things they hit. Spira prime's design implies it boars itself into enemies it hits, other throwing weapons might do this (Although we have visual confirmation in the opening cutscene that kunai specifically doesn't). Fusilai, being glass, might shatter themselves when planted in an enemy causing huge internal damage. Or they might do something a bit simpler like vibrate like an ultrasonic knife. making them cut through almost anything like butter. These are crazy future scifi weapons. The fact that they're using throwing knives at all when totally silent guns are an option is an indication that there's a lot more to them than is visually apparent.

A great example would be how powerful glaives are. Which are essentially just bigger throwing knives

[Tyreaus]

What about updating Concealed Explosives, too? (And Thunderbolt, while we're at it.) I feel like there's a good bit of opportunity in that mod that isn't tapped.

[Skoomaseller]

10 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

What about updating Concealed Explosives, too? (And Thunderbolt, while we're at it.) I feel like there's a good bit of opportunity in that mod that isn't tapped.

I agree. Instead of a flat damage, it should do a % based on damage done by the weapon + spread status dealt by the projectile(s).

[Skoomaseller]

I agree with everything you said, they've fallen off so hard. Perhaps this is also why Fusilai didn't get primed...

In my mind I had a slightly crazy idea: turn them all into ranged melees, each attack having multiple hits.

[Drasiel]

Yes please I really want to use throwing knives again but ever since damage 2.0 they've only fallen farther and farther behind everything and it's been years since we've even seen a new varient at this point :(

[LascarCapable]

I think the skill required to use throwing knife types of weapons in WF has been rather overevaluated in this thread, and I do think a lot of the changes mentionned in the OP might be out of proportion.

I'd like to remind that stealthed melee weapon attacks have an absurdly high multiplier, and is easily triggerable by simply blinding enemies or using invisibility. Considering that the Helminth system allows anyone to run Breach Surge, adding something like that with the same multipliers than stealthed melee, along with the suggested massive damage increase, may be downright overpowered. 

A more reasonable suggestion that fits the idea of making throwing knives a weapon for skilled users would be to simply give to your throwing knives a better damage multiplier upon hitting an enemy weakspot : x3 instead of x2, for example (thrown explosives excluded). A smaller base damage increase wouldn't be too much of a problem either, but not in excess.

In a hindsight, I think what you'd probably really want actually is new weapon. An endgame viable throwing knife secondary that rewards precision. There's nothing in that niche past MR10. In fact : there's no throwing weapons past MR10... That's your real problem here I think. Not the fact that throwing weapons are bad, but more the fact that we don't have any throwing weapons for higher mastery ranks yet.

Edited July 25, 2022 by LascarCapable

[CrownOfShadows]

Ohhhh yeah...... forgot we had throwing knives in this game

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

On 2022-07-25 at 3:07 AM, LascarCapable said:

I think the skill required to use throwing knife types of weapons in WF has been rather overevaluated in this thread, and I do think a lot of the changes mentionned in the OP might be out of proportion.

I'd like to remind that stealthed melee weapon attacks have an absurdly high multiplier, and is easily triggerable by simply blinding enemies or using invisibility. Considering that the Helminth system allows anyone to run Breach Surge, adding something like that with the same multipliers than stealthed melee, along with the suggested massive damage increase, may be downright overpowered. 

A more reasonable suggestion that fits the idea of making throwing knives a weapon for skilled users would be to simply give to your throwing knives a better damage multiplier upon hitting an enemy weakspot : x3 instead of x2, for example (thrown explosives excluded). A smaller base damage increase wouldn't be too much of a problem either, but not in excess.

In a hindsight, I think what you'd probably really want actually is new weapon. An endgame viable throwing knife secondary that rewards precision. There's nothing in that niche past MR10. In fact : there's no throwing weapons past MR10... That's your real problem here I think. Not the fact that throwing weapons are bad, but more the fact that we don't have any throwing weapons for higher mastery ranks yet.

Actually what you are suggesting as overpowered might be what single target bows and thrown weapons need in this game.

A damage boost similar to stealth melee.

Create one for unalerted enemies that nearly results in an instant kill for bows and thrown weapons. (This would reward stealth play and a stealth playstyle) and would be like performing a ranged stealth finisher.

Then one that mirrors the melee damage bonus.

The current stealth melee bonus is 700% according to the wiki.

So lets just double that for fully unalerted. So when nobody see you are doing 1400% more damage.

if you hit your radial blind or smoke bomb your throwing knives are doing 700%.

 

[Phaegis]

An idea I always had about thrown secondaries is to make them act like pseudoexalted since they’re thrown by hand; specifically make their damage scale with the combo counter. 

[DaMasque]

IMO all throwing knives should have Fusilai altfire. 

Kunai, Hikou, Despair can fan out 5 knives whilst Spira throws out 3.

The only throwing weapon I would give a "unique" quirk would be Despair; ignoring some armor and innate punch through.

 

[Archenius]

Yeah the best Throwing weapon is still the Staticor despite the "AOE" nerfs

[Hawkeye2404]

I've always like the throwing weapons. They feel cool to use, really capturing that space ninja feel very well. But IMO overall they're kinda lackluster compared to other weapon types (not all of them, but many of them). And there isn't all that much of a difference between the different types of throwing knives. I would like to see throwing weapons in general be buffed where necessary and their mod collection expanded. I would also like the throwing knives specifically be boosted a bit, and I think all of them (or most of them at least) should get alternate firing mode to throw multiple knives at once in a spread. Also, having more throwing weapons in general would be awesome, as well as more prime and other special versions of them.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

Imagine my lack of surprise when throwing knives turned out to be the least optimal thing to use for, well, a long time. They're as archaic & irrelevant as DE's "Space Ninja" ads. Sure, they pay homage to Waframe's early days, but we all know that people are running Mesa or Saryn alongside the Bramma & Nukor.

The day Daikyu Prime & Kunai Prime become a thing, I'll be happy. If they do solid damage, I'll be even more impressed.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Ninja Star....

... Glaive

hmmmmh

maybe if the throwing star weapons could also tap Alt to explode midair?

 

[NinjaZeku]

3 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

maybe if the throwing star weapons could also tap Alt to explode midair?

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Aegrit

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Castanas

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Sancti_Castanas

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Talons

These have manual detonation as their main feature, and they're hardly meta or anything (tho Aegrit is a decently strong / fun recent addition).

I can't really see how adding a (naturally lesser) boom function to "normal" throwing type weapons would help much if at all.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

3 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

I can't really see how adding a (naturally lesser) boom function to "normal" throwing type weapons would help much if at all.

 

it really wouldn't help much

pretty much no reason I'd use them when Glaives already implement the concept of a ninja star better.

-glaives have an Actual Melee function in addition to the throwing.

the Secondary type throwing knives are really just guns with a funny animation; no actual blade functionality.