PVP - Is it for Warframe?

[Berzerkules]

I just want a Diablo 2 type pvp where you head out of town and it's a free for all. 

Dueling in D2 was the most fun I've had in any game ever. It was the reason to grind pve.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

We've had dedicated Conclave servers since 2016: https://www.warframe.com/news/player-dedicated-servers

People that bring this announcement up are hilarious, because that solves nothing. PC can host servers, woo. How does that help consoles? Oh wait it doesn't. 

[PublikDomain]

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)Skippy575 said:

People that bring this announcement up are hilarious, because that solves nothing. PC can host servers, woo. How does that help consoles? Oh wait it doesn't. 

I mean do you think CoD's servers are run on a fleet of Xboxes and PS5s? lol

Servers in a rack are servers in a rack, doesn't really matter if they're talking to an Xbox or a PC. From what my coworker has told me of certing with Microsoft in the past I could see them having security concerns about player hosted servers, but there's no reason DE couldn't just host servers themselves.

[CrownOfShadows]

Yeah PvP requires maintenance for sure. The reason I think it's the best solution to content droughts is that it seems superior to all the alternatives. It's not infinite, that's fair, but it's near-inifinite, and yes even PvP can become stale over time, but the time scale of it tends to be way, way longer than all other forms of content.

I was talking about raids with some people, and also repeatable quests and stuff like liches. These are all okay solutions to content droughts, they help a lot when done well, but they dry up over time and require constant refreshes. Like right now we need new sister/lich weapons & ephemeras because we got 'em all. PvP is slightly different in that the thing that makes PvP interesting - other players - never dries up; that's what makes it infinite/near-infinite. It still needs occasional content and rewards and stuff to help keep people's attention and give them an excuse to jump into it, that's true, but those things aren't really the attraction.

Can DE devote enough attention to a PvP mode to keep it alive? Well, tbh, I think this depends on the PvP mode. Something like fresh frame PvP - like I mentioned, probably not, that requires true dedication, like a task force or team that is on it at all times, balancing and generating. But other stuff would be extremely low maintenance. Something like 10k PvP would be almost no maintenance, it relies entirely on existing things. Something like Stalker PvP would be some maintenance but still not much as it only needs attention to be given to Stalkers with an occasional release now and then to keep it spicy. Stuff like corpus vs grineer would be somewhere in the middle, I think.

It really depends a lot on DE's vision for the future and how much they care about content droughts.

Maybe they don't care at all. I only care because I love warframe and wish I had a reason to play it more than a couple times a year.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

There is no way to balance frames and weapons that wouldnt cause majority of players to get mad and leave.  and every single attempt in putting a pvp mode in past other than just the dueling room in dojo has flopped hard.  conclave and lunaro are completely dead I never once see a single other player when try and run either for variety.  Its only a very very small minority that want pvp most want the game to say just the coop experience its awlays been

 

[Tyreaus]

17 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I was talking about raids with some people, and also repeatable quests and stuff like liches. These are all okay solutions to content droughts, they help a lot when done well, but they dry up over time and require constant refreshes. Like right now we need new sister/lich weapons & ephemeras because we got 'em all. PvP is slightly different in that the thing that makes PvP interesting - other players - never dries up; that's what makes it infinite/near-infinite. It still needs occasional content and rewards and stuff to help keep people's attention and give them an excuse to jump into it, that's true, but those things aren't really the attraction.

Your thinking is swapping between intrinsic and extrinsic values. You look at content like liches and raids and see that they're finite in extrinsic rewards. Then you say that PvP is also limited in extrinsic rewards, but that's fine because it's got intrinsic value. What that ends up saying is that the aforementioned PvE content lacks intrinsic value. But it could have that. PvP doesn't have a monopoly on the intrinsic side. It just happens to be the more evident example. As for whether intrinsic value is enough to keep it going, well...the current intrinsic values of extant PvP and its performance are cause for concern.

[Joezone619]

IMO, no, pvp doesn't belong in warframe.

[RichardKam]

3小时前 , (PSN)Chayy800 说:

Reading some of the people replies really makes me shake my head pvp can work but it doesn’t need to the main Focus of the game . Destiny did fine with that they’re pvp and pve sides are at a good level of players .

I can never understand why people say  the PvP Community is the most toxic community honestly the PVE side is no better. 

A guy on Facebook literally doxxed a another person over a Paris prime build he disagreed with during this year.
And it got so bad for the dude he had to private everything he had to safely  graduate.

It’s slightly of topic but what I’m saying is that we shouldn’t complain about the other side if our side ain’t any better. 

> A majority of tenno said they do not want PvP. Many people explained why they don't want PvP. Many people explained why PvP won't work in a PvE game. Many people have experienced toxic PvP in a PvE focused games and said they don't want it.

"Everyone that disagree with me was wrong. I am the only one in the entire origin system that truly understand the beauty and value of PvP. Despite a lack of supportive evidence and tons of previous failure, I am still 100% sure PvP will work."

[TARINunit9]

The problem with PvP in Warframe isn't the specifics, it's the general idea. You ask this question:

19 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Are you interested in WF PvP in some form?

And the answer is almost always a resounding "no." Now you had the self-awareness to put this question right at the top of your post, but in my mind that does nothing but highlight how apathetic (on a good day) or hostile (on a bad day) this fanbase is towards the very concept of PvP.

I mean, I like the idea of Corpus vs Grineer. I've seen the Moshpit 10k format used in other games before. And Stalker Mode was developed by the devs years ago. But the simple fact is, besides a couple dedicated holdout advocates for seeing more PvP in this game, the fanbase just doesn't care. PublikDomain will tell me I don't speak for everyone each time I point this out, and while that's true on a literal level the numbers don't lie: the Warframe playerbase doesn't turn out for PvP. The classic refrains (not necessarily from you, but I hear them a lot) of "it would help player retention", "it would be a good endgame," and "it's a more worthwhile form of repeatable content" don't seem to ring true either no matter how many times they get pushed into the forums -- the PvE players are still here year after year, treating the supposedly less valuable PvE as their endgame repeatable content

[(PSN)Chayy800]

Just now, RichardKam said:

> A majority of tenno said they do not want PvP. Many people explained why they don't want PvP. Many people explained why PvP won't work in a PvE game. Many people have experienced toxic PvP in a PvE focused games and said they don't want it.

"Everyone that disagree with me was wrong. I am the only one in the entire origin system that truly understand the beauty and value of PvP. Despite a lack of supportive evidence and tons of previous failure, I am still 100% sure PvP will work."

The warframe player base has grown very lazy they don’t wanna try new things

every thing dose not need to revolve around one thing DE should be allowed more creative freedom with there direction but in some cases they can’t due to most players complaints who’s reasons are wired.
 

Players these days would rather swing & shoot mindlessly all day with out any fun interaction with enemies  

[(PSN)Chayy800]

7 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

> A majority of tenno said they do not want PvP. Many people explained why they don't want PvP. Many people explained why PvP won't work in a PvE game. Many people have experienced toxic PvP in a PvE focused games and said they don't want it.

"Everyone that disagree with me was wrong. I am the only one in the entire origin system that truly understand the beauty and value of PvP. Despite a lack of supportive evidence and tons of previous failure, I am still 100% sure PvP will work."

Don’t get me wrong PvP doesn’t need to the main direction of the game to get updates for it . But I feel like sooner or later they’ll  have to mix it up a bit 

[(PSN)Chayy800]

24 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

IMO, no, pvp doesn't belong in warframe.

It can work just it was went into the wrong way in my opinion 

[Tyreaus]

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I mean, I like the idea of Corpus vs Grineer. I've seen the Moshpit 10k format used in other games before. And Stalker Mode was developed by the devs years ago. But the simple fact is, besides a couple dedicated holdout advocates for seeing more PvP in this game, the fanbase just doesn't care.

While I'm not huge into PvP, I do wish they would release Stalker mode. For me, personally, I don't really see it as PvP in a traditional sense. It's not something I could classify as a "competitive" mode - it doesn't have the same investment or sense of seriousness behind it, where you might attribute some kind of ranking or leaderboard system and not have people laugh at it. It's...well, for lack of cleaner phrasing, $&*^ing around. I feel like those are the sorts of PvP that could find an iota of success: the sorts of things there to muck around with on a slow day or while waiting for night in the Plains.

[TARINunit9]

4 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

While I'm not huge into PvP, I do wish they would release Stalker mode. For me, personally, I don't really see it as PvP in a traditional sense. It's not something I could classify as a "competitive" mode - it doesn't have the same investment or sense of seriousness behind it, where you might attribute some kind of ranking or leaderboard system and not have people laugh at it. It's...well, for lack of cleaner phrasing, $&*^ing around. I feel like those are the sorts of PvP that could find an iota of success: the sorts of things there to muck around with on a slow day or while waiting for night in the Plains.

Personally I am on the far other end of the spectrum, but for different reasons. Stalker Mode makes me think "I have enough problems dealing with this guy's sh*t when he's AI controlled, I don't want him controlled by some Dark Souls loving tryhard griefer."

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

18 hours ago, shut said:

+1. These are all super interesting ideas and I like your exploration of their pros and cons!

I think Grineer vs Corpus PVP would work the best. It shouldn't be too hard to make a variety of team-based game modes, like:

• The existing ones (Team Annihilation, Cephalon Capture, Lunaro-except-murdering-each-other-is-possible-since-grineer-and-corpus-are-not-known-for-their-sportsmanlike-conduct, etc)
• Control point (i.e. one team pushes forward to "capture" 3-5ish key locations in sequence, and other team tries to stop them)
• Symmetrical control point (i.e. both teams start with the same number of controlled points, and must capture those of the opposing team)
• King-of-the-hill (i.e. there's only one control point, and each team has a timer that ticks down when they're the ones controlling it; winner ticks down to zero first)
• Payload (i.e. Hijack, except the vehicle cannot be destroyed; the goal is to simply prevent the attacking team from pushing the vehicle to the end)
• Yes I am just repeating existing game modes in Team Fortress 2 (i.e. there are many reasons that the game is still alive today, and one of them is having a variety of engaging game modes)

An absolute requirement for keeping team-based PVP interesting in each of these modes is having a variety of "classes" with fundamentally different roles. Grineer and Corpus already have enough existing units that some of these classes already exist, e.g.

• Butcher/Prodman
• Lancer/Crewman (maybe merged with Butcher/Prodman, since pure-melee classes with no special functionality wouldn't really work here)
• Ballista/SniperCrewman
• Hellion/Ranger
• Heavy Gunner/Tech
• Hell, even RollerSentry/Ratel for speedy "nuisance" classes

New classes could be made using existing assets, e.g.

• An "engineer" class that can summon summon Carabus/Ospreys and provide health/ammo stations for teammates
• A "healer" class that can provide AoE healing pulses and/or a healing beam that latches onto one teammate at a time
• Yes I am just repeating TF2 stuff again it's a good game ok

Just spitballing here. Of all the PVP possibilities, GrineerVCorpus stands out as one that would work really damn well because of the framework that WF already has for it. No movement problem, no PVE counterpart to worry about balance-wise... just a totally fresh new game mode made out of existing assets.

Corpus VS Grineer reminds me of the fun i had in the original Star wars Battlefront 2

[RichardKam]

23分钟前 , (PSN)Chayy800 说:

The warframe player base has grown very lazy they don’t wanna try new things

every thing dose not need to revolve around one thing DE should be allowed more creative freedom with there direction but in some cases they can’t due to most players complaints who’s reasons are wired.
 

Players these days would rather swing & shoot mindlessly all day with out any fun interaction with enemies  

Read: ""Everyone that disagree with me was not just wrong, but was also lazy, mindless and not willing to learn. Unlike me, PvP lovers are always right. PvP will work and no one can convince me otherwise."

If DE has infinite resources for Warframe, sure, why not. But no, DE does not have infinite resources. The to-do list is endless. Just look at the bugs section to see how many problem remain unfixed. Not to mention all the rework, rebalance, new content, etc etc etc. 

There is something called "priorities" in this world. Obviously there are more pressing issues in Warframe than some vague game modes that 99% of player base simply does not care.

Maybe you will see your PvP dream coming true, in 2035 perhaps. Good luck.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

PublikDomain will tell me I don't speak for everyone each time I point this out, and while that's true on a literal level the numbers don't lie: the Warframe playerbase doesn't turn out for PvP.

And like I tell you every time, the reason the playerbase doesn't turn out for PvP is because it's been so poorly made. If it weren't so poorly made then people would turn out for it just like they do in any game that has both PvP and PvE. And you'll say "but the cost to develop" and I'll say "what cost, the cost has already been paid half a decade ago" and round and round we go. I don't keep defending the idea of PvP in all these threads because it's my favorite thing to do, I keep defending it because getting it to a good place would be cheap and easy. There's barely anything left to do and all the cost everyone is so fearful of DE putting into a piece of content they don't personally care for has already been paid six years ago. Conclave in particular is inches from being a playable game mode and the only thing holding it back is the constant gatekeeping from people who could just continue to not play it.

[TARINunit9]

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And like I tell you every time, the reason the playerbase doesn't turn out for PvP is because it's been so poorly made.

Chicken vs egg argument. I disagree with your conclusion, I think the fanbase of 2013-2014 was already burnt out on PvP, and Conclave's poor quality just made an already apathetic audience even more so

[RichardKam]

29分钟前 , PublikDomain 说:

And like I tell you every time, the reason the playerbase doesn't turn out for PvP is because it's been so poorly made. If it weren't so poorly made then people would turn out for it just like they do in any game that has both PvP and PvE. And you'll say "but the cost to develop" and I'll say "what cost, the cost has already been paid half a decade ago" and round and round we go. I don't keep defending the idea of PvP in all these threads because it's my favorite thing to do, I keep defending it because getting it to a good place would be cheap and easy. There's barely anything left to do and all the cost everyone is so fearful of DE putting into a piece of content they don't personally care for has already been paid six years ago. Conclave in particular is inches from being a playable game mode and the only thing holding it back is the constant gatekeeping from people who could just continue to not play it.

Nothing in this world is "cheap and easy". That is just wishful thinking that something you want is "cheap and easy". When you assign one programmer to do one thing, that is the cost in terms of salary, time, computing power, debug, QA and testing invested in THAT thing, instead of invested in somewhere more meaningful. Not to mention maintenance, handling user complaints and reports, more debug, concurrent balancing whenever a new warframe / weapon is introduced to the main game, etc etc etc. Resources are limited. They are not infinite. There are priorities. A simple SWOP analysis will tell you that PvP does not worth the effort. 

Saying "there's barely anything left to do" just showed us you guys are living in an echo chamber. You are rejecting the reality and substituting your own.

I may as well argue that Railjack / Yareli / Operator / <insert your wish here> is nanometer away from perfection because the Evolution Engine and the code is here already. Actually what's NOT there anyway? 

Again, maybe in the future DE will make so much money and be bigger than EA, then you will see your PvP dream coming true, in 2035 perhaps. Good luck.

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

While I'm not huge into PvP, I do wish they would release Stalker mode. For me, personally, I don't really see it as PvP in a traditional sense. It's not something I could classify as a "competitive" mode - it doesn't have the same investment or sense of seriousness behind it, where you might attribute some kind of ranking or leaderboard system and not have people laugh at it. It's...well, for lack of cleaner phrasing, &#036;&amp;*^ing around. I feel like those are the sorts of PvP that could find an iota of success: the sorts of things there to muck around with on a slow day or while waiting for night in the Plains.

Out of all the many possibilities, I personally favor the Stalker mode quite a bit, and would greenlight it 100%. I think it's extremely low-hanging fruit, low toxicity, pretty fun, avoids the biggest balance issues, and doesn't need dedicated servers or anything. The asymmetry I think is actually a great match for WF. Even further, it kinda solves the problem of not having any challenging enemies in WF. If it doesn't work out, hey, it's easy to disable or abandon - you haven't invested anything in it, especially if you only use the Stalker at first.

It sounds super fun to just jump into some random mission, fight a bunch of tenno until they kill you and then dip out, with extra rewards for both of you. It would be pretty interesting if they also spawned as AI so the players never quite know if it's AI or not.

Frequency: You don't want a big baddie spawning in every mission though, so you'd either want to isolate certain missions for it, create a special planet or zone for it, or make it more difficult thing to jump into. For example it could be pretty hard to become a Stalker, requiring some pre-missioning or other activity first, to make it more of a special activity rather than a queue. I think this is a pretty good way of going about it, actually.

Stalker Victory: another area of consideration is if the Stalker character gains victory by killing all the tenno. I think this is no problem, it can happen even with the regular stalker, and at that point the Stalker player dips out like normal, having achieved 'victory' and the tenno can revive themselves.

Abuse: I was trying to think of how you might abuse this mode. It seems possible that the Stalker character might decide he's not going to fight any of the tenno and just runs away somewhere else on the map, so I think it might be necessary to put the Stalker player on a timer. On the reverse side, the players might decide its not a good day to fight and run from the Stalker. Not sure what happens then. I guess he would just chase them until his timer expires, that's basically how it is currently.

MR/Mods: of course we should think about the MR/XP of the tenno squad. BUT I actually don't think this matters if the Stalker character can't mod themselves. I assume this would be the default, but there's a pretty interesting scenario where the Stalker gets to do some modding beforehand, with probably unique mods. This would just be for variety's sake and to make the Stalker role more interesting, but that's a pretty advanced concern that I wouldn't worry about at all at first, plus a great amount of variety is probably achievable simply by creating alternate Stalker characters with differing pre-built abilities and weapons. All that said, we'd have to also consider the type of content we're spawning into. The same prebuilt Stalker character probably can't spawn in both default Venus and Zariman SP. If these stalker matches only happen on the SP though, then it's no problem, a prebuilt should work. Maybe there are special stalker prebuilts designed for higher content? But then we've gotta consider the population spread and how unpopulated the SP is in general. Haha, lotsa variables here. The design and depth of the Stalker characters is one of the most interesting aspects of this whole concept, and there's tons of potential.

Overall, I think it's absolutely worth trying out. The awesome thing about this is that you can try it out without anyone actually knowing about it. Get a bunch of beta testers, load 'em in, see how it works. The genpop will just think it's a stalker, eh, maybe he's just hitting a little harder than usual. Or disguise it during a content release as something like the Wolf, who would just pop into missions. If it shows a lot of promise, expand it.

 

[Jorak_Falconstar]

4 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Abuse: I was trying to think of how you might abuse this mode. It seems possible that the Stalker character might decide he's not going to fight any of the tenno and just runs away somewhere else on the map, so I think it might be necessary to put the Stalker player on a timer. On the reverse side, the players might decide its not a good day to fight and run from the Stalker. Not sure what happens then. I guess he would just chase them until his timer expires, that's basically how it is currently.

You forgot the possibility of trolling in some specific missions

Defense/Rescue - "Stalker" ignores tenno and just goes straight for the objective/prisoner kill

Spy - deliberately set off alarms to fail vaults.

 

[Tyreaus]

Just now, Jorak_Falconstar said:

Defense/Rescue - "Stalker" ignores tenno and just goes straight for the objective/prisoner kill

Spy - deliberately set off alarms to fail vaults.

 

Stalker can only deal damage to Tenno, not objectives, and - like companions - does not trigger vault alarms.

...I say that as solutions, but I'm now wondering if they might already be behaviours already. Like, surely there's measures against those sorts of issues with AI Stalker.

[PublikDomain]

36 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Chicken vs egg argument. I disagree with your conclusion, I think the fanbase of 2013-2014 was already burnt out on PvP, and Conclave's poor quality just made an already apathetic audience even more so

It doesn't matter how apathetic you think people are towards PvP when the cost to try is next to nothing. All of the cost you guys always go on about has already been paid. Everything listed in the OP is already doable with the game's existing systems and mechanics.

Just now, RichardKam said:

Nothing in this world is "cheap and easy". That is just wishful thinking that something you want is "cheap and easy". When you assign one programmer to do one thing, that is the cost in terms of salary, time, computing power, debug, QA and testing invested in THAT thing, instead of invested in somewhere more meaningful. Not to mention maintenance, handling user complaints and reports, more debug, concurrent balancing whenever a new warframe / weapon is introduced to the main game, etc etc etc. Resources are limited. They are not infinite. There are priorities. A simple SWOP analysis will tell you that PvP does not worth the effort. 

Saying "there's barely anything left to do" just showed us you guys are living in an echo chamber. You are rejecting the reality and substituting your own.

I may as well argue that Railjack / Yareli / Operator / <insert your wish here> is nanometer away from perfection because the Evolution Engine and the code is here already. Actually what's NOT there anyway? 

Again, maybe in the future DE will make so much money and be bigger than EA, then you will see your PvP dream coming true, in 2035 perhaps. Good luck.

Some things in this world absolutely are "cheap and easy", and game development pays my mortgage. I'm not saying improving it would be cheap and easy out of nowhere.

Yes, there are costs. There are costs for everything. And compared to spending half a year building out some brand new cinematic story quest players will be done with in a weekend, how expensive do you think a small team working on existing content would be? Certainly less, and this goes for any piece of content whether it be Railjack or PvP or frame reworks. And would this have different costs in terms of salary, time, computing power (wut?), or QA than any other piece of content? I see no reason why it would. And would the maintenance costs really be so high? DE removed Raids because of their maintenance costs, so surely we can say that maintenance is a valid reason for DE to not do something. But, curiously, they didn't remove Conclave and it's still in the game despite being poorly made. Why might that be? Could it be that the maintenance costs are so low that it's not even worth removing it from the game? Concurrent balancing for new weapons and frames is already a solved problem, it just relies on DE paying minimal attention. Resources are limited, yes, so maybe it'd be good to spend a little bit of those resources on improving content with built-in longevity? And there are priorities, sure, but PvP is perfectly OK being low on that list. I don't think anyone here is saying it should be a high priority.

None of these concerns hold up.

[Berzerkules]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

There is no way to balance frames and weapons that wouldnt cause majority of players to get mad and leave.  and every single attempt in putting a pvp mode in past other than just the dueling room in dojo has flopped hard.  conclave and lunaro are completely dead I never once see a single other player when try and run either for variety.  Its only a very very small minority that want pvp most want the game to say just the coop experience its awlays been

WF could be balanced for pvp and pve if it was made a priority, unfortunately it's not.

Diablo 2 did it 20+ years ago. Sure, there were only 7 classes but each class had skill trees with a total of 30 skills that you could rank up to about lvl 50 with gear items and charms. There were also adjustable stats on character screen and just like WF there were hundreds of weapons and gear items. You'd have 10 unique items you could equip, stash full of charms adjustable character stats and a unique build. Every build was different and unique just like WF. I just feel that if games 2 decades ago could balance pvp and pve it should still be possible, The only difference is the willingness of the devs to make it happen. 

[TARINunit9]

18 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It doesn't matter how apathetic you think people are towards PvP when the cost to try is next to nothing. All of the cost you guys always go on about has already been paid. Everything listed in the OP is already doable with the game's existing systems and mechanics.

Ok, no on two accounts:

Your comment confuses "opportunity cost to play a game" with "cost to develop the game".

Even if we assume you meant "cost to develop the game"... No, you're grossly underestimating the world of software development. Stalker Mode, sure, that was actually done already, give it three years worth of patches they could get it going in a month. But Archwing? K-drive races? Railjack? That all would take a year of development to be ready