Nerfs to abilities for more skill-based gameplay

[AzureScion]

47 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Higher levels should be harder, otherwise there would be no difference compared to lower levels when you get hit.

This is true, but at one point the damage reduction becomes irrelevant because when 10% of X hits higher than any number of health a regular warframe gets except for Inaros, you will get one shot anyway once your shield runs out. It will essentially be returning back to shield-gating abuse because you just cannot work around a one shot from perfect accuracy shots from 9 different directions. Even if it's possible, at this point this game would be way more difficult than any souls game.

48 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

There are plenty of ways to avoid damage and it's only harder if you're not utilizing them.

I don't think it's hard, but whether or not it is, my changes aim to make more skill-based gameplay.

Also, debatable that they would have perfect sight. Stealth gameplay can be kinda silly.

Can you elaborate on how one can avoid damage without going invisible? Genuinely curious because from my personal experience aside from cheese mechanics, invincibility, etc, it's practically nigh impossible to avoid all source of damage. Damage reduction helps, but only to a certain extent. If the only solution is to go invisible then that would render like, what, 46 other warframes useless or would inflate the price of arcane trickery. Like I mentioned before, taking cover doesn't work.. which is imo pretty silly.

52 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

If you think Lavos (a warframe with no damage reduction but high defense stats) can continue to facetank hits, why do you think warframes with a damage reduction couldn't?

My point was to explain how taking cover doesn't work to negate damage, only to delay them, which then I gave up trying to go with and just went back to unga bunga method. Sadly even Lavos would crumble in higher levels. In fact I bet the only thing that matters to survive in super high level content is shield gating cheese, not even Rhino's invincibility or Revenant's mesmer skin can save you from that. 

 

But then again I wouldn't touch anything on that level so I can't comment much. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Sakatchi:

'Our gear lets use cheese missions, so we'd better nerf trinity!' Is what I got from that, considering you first complained about gear, then jumped right on to skill nerfs, except for a specific few.

 

then it's best to nerf inaros too...
and weaken his skills by 90%...
because he is said to be much too easy to play and that makes a lot of missions much too easy...

 

[MJ12]

On 2022-08-16 at 6:26 PM, Gorlust said:

I feel that alot of Warframe’s missions are primarily based on your gear and how they cheese mechanics rather than your skill and how well you play. Call me a mad man, but I feel that nerfs need to be made to create a skill ceiling. Nothing will ever be challenging if you’re able to ignore all damage, avoid all danger and kill enemies you never saw.

Your suggestions are demanding the dumpstering some of the most niche abilities and augments in the game, apparently because you think any power that mentions "invincibility" or "invisibility" must be overpowered automatically, therefore nerf. Because some of these powers are quite niche or actually bad.

"Sigh, another Revenant, why is this happening, Mesmer Skin is stupidly overpowered," said no one, ever, in the history of Warframe. Or Devour - the only use it has as it stands is as a method of healing under fire, because it sure as hell doesn't do damage.

Moreover, a lot of your ostensible rationale for these nerfs doesn't actually work when you recognize that you're also saying that Warframes don't need these powers because the game shouldn't be balanced for super high-level enemies... but on most content, 90% damage reduction or whatever isn't all that much different from invulnerability. These changes won't even fix the problem that you seem to think is the critical flaw in Warframe because 90% damage reduction with a couple of extra survival mods will let you power through damage anyways.

The core of your suggestions seems to be based on a belief that the only valid sort of skill in Warframe is moment to moment twitch reflexes, which is absurd. There's a reason that good players in PvP shooter games can actually beat aimbotters/wallhackers some of the time, and that's because even in super-sweaty competitive FPSes, 'skill' involves far more than clicking on heads and dodging. Skill in understanding how to make builds work for you and manage resources is no less important than the very narrow slice of 'skill' you exalt as the only valid form of skill in an action game.

[Gorlust]

On 2022-08-27 at 12:48 AM, Sakatchi said:

considering you first complained about gear, then jumped right on to skill nerfs

By "gear" I mean the stuff that you bring in your mission, most notably your warframe.

[Gorlust]

14 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The reasoning is clear...the premise is not. 

What does that mean?

14 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I don't go to the World of Warcraft forum and tell them to be more like Warframe

I'm not asking for Warframe to be like other games. I'm asking for more skill-based gameplay in Warframe.

Also, just because another game would have a certain feature or system, does not mean that Warframe can't have it too.

14 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There are 100 other games that have exactly what you want. Go play them.

No thanks, I like this game!

[Gorlust]

On 2022-08-27 at 1:38 AM, AzureScion said:

at one point the damage reduction becomes irrelevant because when 10% of X hits higher than any number of health a regular warframe gets except for Inaros, you will get one shot anyway once your shield runs out

I understand that in situations like this, you would need invincibility. But if if you need invincibility for only these situations, why is the solution to let invincibility across the whole game? Majority of the game is not these situations. So I would say that majority of the time, invincibility is too powerful to just press a button and have it.

I'm open to ideas that allow invincibility, if there is a restriction on it, or if something skillful needs to be pulled off to have it. But as a blanket change to invincibility, I think changing it to damage reduction would allow the most skill-based gameplay.

On 2022-08-27 at 1:38 AM, AzureScion said:

Can you elaborate on how one can avoid damage without going invisible? Genuinely curious because from my personal experience aside from cheese mechanics, invincibility, etc, it's practically nigh impossible to avoid all source of damage. Damage reduction helps, but only to a certain extent.

Yes, sorry, I didn't put the effort in to include examples because I didn't think you would reply! My bad.

I'm did not say you need to avoid all damage, as that would seem unreasonable.

We might just disagree on this one, but I think it is reasonable to expect that a player can stay alive using other methods to avoid damage like taking cover to recover shields, cc, high mobility, dodging telegraphed attacks, healing, parrying or [spoiler mode], instead of just relying on invincibility as a substitute for all of those.

Invincibility takes out the constant management of staying alive and I don't think it should give the same, or better results than players trying to use other skillful methods.

On 2022-08-27 at 1:38 AM, AzureScion said:

My point was to explain how taking cover doesn't work to negate damage, only to delay them, which then I gave up trying to go with and just went back to unga bunga method

Ah, makes sense.

 

I enjoyed this reply, it would be nice to hear back from you again!

[Gorlust]

12 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

then it's best to nerf inaros too...
and weaken his skills by 90%...
because he is said to be much too easy to play and that makes a lot of missions much too easy...

What a stretch!

[Gorlust]

9 hours ago, MJ12 said:

apparently because you think any power that mentions "invincibility" or "invisibility" must be overpowered automatically, therefore nerf. Because some of these powers are quite niche or actually bad.

I think that the invincibility and invisibility parts are too powerful. There's no reason why the abilities can't be buffed along with the nerf.

9 hours ago, MJ12 said:

"Sigh, another Revenant, why is this happening, Mesmer Skin is stupidly overpowered," said no one, ever, in the history of Warframe.

Other players do not decide what I think. I make up my own opinion.

9 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Or Devour - the only use it has as it stands is as a method of healing under fire, because it sure as hell doesn't do damage.

Then the ability is the problem, and not my nerf to it, right?

9 hours ago, MJ12 said:

but on most content, 90% damage reduction or whatever isn't all that much different from invulnerability.

If you don't think it's that much different, then why are you apposed to it?

9 hours ago, MJ12 said:

90% damage reduction with a couple of extra survival mods will let you power through damage anyways

Yes, this is what I would rather players do, as it requires a little more skill to stay alive that way, than just using invincibility.

9 hours ago, MJ12 said:

The core of your suggestions seems to be based on a belief that the only valid sort of skill in Warframe is moment to moment twitch reflexes

Nowhere did I mention what I consider to be only valid skill.

I also wouldn't say it's "moment to moment twitch reflexes" to avoid damage and at-least see enemies before they die

9 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Skill in understanding how to make builds work for you and manage resources is no less important than the very narrow slice of 'skill' you exalt as the only valid form of skill in an action game.

I know that making builds and managing resources takes skill and I don't want it to go away, but you misunderstand the point of my changes. My changes are to make more skill-based gameplay, as I think too much of it comes down to your Warframe and builds.

[Gorlust]

On 2022-08-26 at 3:52 PM, Lutesque said:

Yeah go Try to Baby Sit an Excavator without Getting Hit Once

On 2022-08-26 at 3:52 PM, Lutesque said:

Go Do a Mission and see if you don't Get Hit

Where did this idea come from? I'm not sure how this relates.

On 2022-08-26 at 3:52 PM, Lutesque said:

Funny how this So called "Buff" was never Mentioned until now

Because this post is about nerfs, not buffs.

On 2022-08-26 at 3:52 PM, Lutesque said:

See if you can do All Content in Warframe without using a single thing that goes through Walls

I don't understand why.

[selig_fay]

I don't think these nerfs are necessary. Maybe I know a solution for invisibility that is implemented in eve online, where you can't become invisible when you are already targeted, but that would only create an extra problem by forcing players to hide behind the nearest wall.

On the other hand, strong abilities are not a problem. The problem is that they have zero cost at the end of the game.

[MJ12]

On 2022-08-26 at 9:07 PM, Gorlust said:

I think that the invincibility and invisibility parts are too powerful. There's no reason why the abilities can't be buffed along with the nerf.

Other players do not decide what I think. I make up my own opinion.

And yet, you said nothing about buffs until you got overwhelmingly negative feedback to your poorly thought-out changes. And when you talk about buffs, you say things like "Subjective. But also why does that mean he can't have his 3 nerfed and then buffed overall? I would much rather have it like that, than right now where it could be considered the only thing he has going for him." n other words, you were outright saying that you thought Undertow was overpowered - especially when you claim it's the "only thing he has going for him," despite the fact that nobody thinks Undertow is a good ability. And you actually do think things like Mesmer Skin and Undertow are overpowered, despite the fact that these are actually extremely limited capabilities which are hardly gamebreaking in practical use.

This suggests a very questionable understanding of how Warframe plays in 2022, and that's not good if you want your suggestions for "skill-based gameplay" to be taken seriously. You don't have to like the meta or even use it, but you should understand what it is, why it exists, and what people like and don't like about it.

On 2022-08-26 at 9:07 PM, Gorlust said:

Then the ability is the problem, and not my nerf to it, right?

If you don't think it's that much different, then why are you apposed to it?

Yes, this is what I would rather players do, as it requires a little more skill to stay alive that way, than just using invincibility.

You're acting like facetanking through content somehow requires "more skill" when you have high DR because a number is... theoretically going down? But it really doesn't. Enemies do not come at you 100% of the time, you get more than enough time to get incidental shield regen if you're facetanking with high DR. Frankly, the

My opposition to your proposed nerfs is that they're bad nerfs built entirely upon bugbear-based balancing. You dislike invulnerability, so almost every power with invulnerability must be far too powerful and thus needs nerfs regardless of whether they're actually powerful in practice. You dislike invisibility, so every power with invisibility must be far too powerful and thus needs nerfs regardless of whether they're actually powerful in practice. You hate "nuke" abilities, so every single one of them must be designed around pure line of sight, and you claim things like airburst or pulverize need nerfs because of their "nuke" ability (also, rhino stomp is an ability that "takes out any challenge of [enemies] potentially fighting back, I guess, because that 800 base blast damage is a terrifying, earth-shaking level of destruction) regardless of whether they actually cause massive devastation in practice. Your suggested changes do not seem to be based on any understanding of the game as it's played, and to reinforce that impression you talk about how you're unfamiliar with both the current "meta" and any builds "more powerful" than what you're talking about despite the fact that even if you don't like the current "meta" you should know what it is before declaring that X or Y thing should be nerfed - doubly so if you're demanding a bunch of off-meta things get nerfed, which this post basically is.

More importantly, the standards here are not the same. You are asking for a radical change to the structure of the game and significant nerfs to a plethora of powers because of your own aesthetic preferences. I'm merely suggesting that this would be a waste of time that could be better spent elsewhere. If I don't think it's that much different, why shouldn't I be opposed to a significant number of changes (and remember, every time you change a program, you run the risk of creating bugs) that exist only for the sake of change? You don't get to act like these two options are neutral in consequence. One option - the one you're advocating - involves, essentially, the reworking of multiple Warframes because you've just dumpstered their survivability powers or greatly reduced their abilities' efficacy in actual combat. It would likely take many, many man-hours of balancing, non-zero art and animation time, and significant PR time. The other option requires no such effort.

The burden is on you to prove that your changes would improve the game so significantly that they are worth the actual time they would require to implement.

On 2022-08-26 at 9:07 PM, Gorlust said:

Nowhere did I mention what I consider to be only valid skill.

I also wouldn't say it's "moment to moment twitch reflexes" to avoid damage and at-least see enemies before they die

I know that making builds and managing resources takes skill and I don't want it to go away, but you misunderstand the point of my changes. My changes are to make more skill-based gameplay, as I think too much of it comes down to your Warframe and builds.

Your changes wouldn't actually make more "skill-based gameplay" though. They're literally a bunch of poorly-thought-out nerfs to a largely weak stable of abilities that serves no actual purpose, because they're dumpstering already weak powers. More damningly, I look at your suggested nerfs, then I look at powers which have already seen those changes (like Inferno) and your suggestions are to nerf them further because you're not satisfied with those nerfs and won't be satisfied. Or making Overguard immune to all ability damage, which makes little sense because damage abilities are already generally weak and you want to make them weaker for... reasons, I guess.

Very little of this makes sense except if you insist that twitch reflexes are the only valid sort of skill and gun combat is the only valid sort of combat in Warframe.

[Gorlust]

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

And yet, you said nothing about buffs until you got overwhelmingly negative feedback to your poorly thought-out changes

No, it's because this post is about nerfs, not buffs.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

n other words, you were outright saying that you thought Undertow was overpowered - especially when you claim it's the "only thing he has going for him," despite the fact that nobody thinks Undertow is a good ability

I never claimed it was overpowered.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

And you actually do think things like Mesmer Skin and Undertow are overpowered, despite the fact that these are actually extremely limited capabilities which are hardly gamebreaking in practical use

The point of my change is not to change gamebreaking abilities, it's to add more skill-based gameplay.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

You don't have to like the meta or even use it, but you should understand what it is, why it exists, and what people like and don't like about it

If you're claiming that I don't know, I'd like the explanation.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

You're acting like facetanking through content somehow requires "more skill" when you have high DR because a number is... theoretically going down?

Yes. I think it requires more skill, as you still have to avoid damage more than just using invincibility.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

you get more than enough time to get incidental shield regen if you're facetanking with high DR

I think that's fine.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

You dislike invulnerability, so almost every power with invulnerability must be far too powerful and thus needs nerfs regardless of whether they're actually powerful in practice

I never claimed that the abilities were too powerful, I think that invincibility is too powerful to just be granted.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

You hate "nuke" abilities, so every single one of them must be designed around pure line of sight

Yes, as I think it would create more skill-based gameplay.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

you claim things like airburst or pulverize need nerfs because of their "nuke" ability (also, rhino stomp is an ability that "takes out any challenge of [enemies] potentially fighting back, I guess, because that 800 base blast damage is a terrifying, earth-shaking level of destruction) regardless of whether they actually cause massive devastation in practice

I want them line of sight because they deal damage, if they did not, I would be happy if they weren't line of sight.

The point of my change is not to balance damage, it's to add more skill to the ability use.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

Your suggested changes do not seem to be based on any understanding of the game as it's played, and to reinforce that impression you talk about how you're unfamiliar with both the current "meta" and any builds "more powerful" than what you're talking about despite the fact that even if you don't like the current "meta" you should know what it is before declaring that X or Y thing should be nerfed

Why?

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

You are asking for a radical change to the structure of the game and significant nerfs to a plethora of powers

I wouldn't say it's that radical of a change. I'm not removing the abilities and it now just requires an extra step, consisting of what you were already doing in the game.

I would also say that the "structure of the game" is not invincibility, invisibility and nuking.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

because of your own aesthetic preferences

I don't know what this is trying to say.

All feedback is based on preferences. Even the official updates are based on preferences.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

only for the sake of change?

The sake is to add more skill-based gameplay.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

You don't get to act like these two options are neutral in consequence. One option - the one you're advocating - involves, essentially, the reworking of multiple Warframes because you've just dumpstered their survivability powers or greatly reduced their abilities' efficacy in actual combat. It would likely take many, many man-hours of balancing, non-zero art and animation time, and significant PR time. The other option requires no such effort.

Huh?

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

The burden is on you to prove that your changes would improve the game so significantly that they are worth the actual time they would require to implement.

I think I did that, all the reasoning is in the original post.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

Your changes wouldn't actually make more "skill-based gameplay" though

Explanation?

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

you want to make them weaker for... reasons

You can still get the same results out of the abilities, it would just require more skill to get that now, which is the point of my changes.

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

Very little of this makes sense except if you insist that twitch reflexes are the only valid sort of skill

Oversimplifying.

The skill required to get the most out of abilities, is now, avoid damage, avoid traps and be in line of sight of enemies. I wouldn't consider these "twitch reflexes"

On 2022-08-30 at 11:20 PM, MJ12 said:

gun combat is the only valid sort of combat in Warframe

Where did this come from? Not only did I not say that, but why is this the conclusion you jumped to?

[B3JOKER]

if a warframe been given a special ability to prevent damage, it's also usually been given a weak body, which means if they lost/deactivate that ability, they will get into a very dangerous situation or die immediately, I wander how you can solve this problem without homogenize all other warframes.

[(PSN)rexis12]

2 hours ago, B3JOKER said:

if a warframe been given a special ability to prevent damage, it's also usually been given a weak body, which means if they lost/deactivate that ability, they will get into a very dangerous situation or die immediately, I wander how you can solve this problem without homogenize all other warframes.

"Lol" says Rhino, with his above average Armour.

"Lmao even," say Valkyr and her 600 Armour rank.

 

[B3JOKER]

1小时前 , (PSN)rexis12 说:

"Lol" says Rhino, with his above average Armour.

"Lmao even," say Valkyr and her 600 Armour rank.

 

well, you misunderstood, maybe I should use "avoid" rather "prevent" to describe, what I mean is to make the bullet not touching you, that kind of "special ability"

[selig_fay]

23 minutes ago, B3JOKER said:

well, you misunderstood, maybe I should use "avoid" rather "prevent" to describe, what I mean is to make the bullet not touching you, that kind of "special ability"

We already have ShieldGate, which prevents damage to health. We have invisibility, which turns enemies into a joke. All this is extremely sad, because it turns out that our health and shields do not mean anything until we take special tanked frames. We also have a decrease in the accuracy of enemies depending on your speed and I, as Titania, predicted that it would not work. And it does not work well. Then no. I don't think it will work. We fight in narrow corridors, we do not have a shelter system, we get shooting in the back, because the enemies of Spawn are everywhere. I would like to put abilities on CD, but it should definitely not be as long as in Destiny, because you cannot wait 30-40 seconds, since the enemies are always everywhere. 

[(PSN)rexis12]

8 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

We also have a decrease in the accuracy of enemies depending on your speed and I, as Titania, predicted that it would not work. And it does not work well.

I'm 90% sure the reason why the shots miss Titania is simply due to the Razorflies attacking rather than actually the innate Damage Evade.

 

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

I'm 90% sure the reason why the shots miss Titania is simply due to the Razorflies attacking rather than actually the innate Damage Evade.

 

I'm talking about reducing the accuracy of enemies. This does not care well for large levels. Her innate evasion is in order. She does not evade, but simply ignores damage when she receives it. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PSN)rexis12:

"Lol" says Rhino, with his above average Armour.

"Lmao even," say Valkyr and her 600 Armour rank.

 

rhino might be ok...until an enemy removes all buffs...
but lots of armor doesn't help if you're constantly dealing with dots like heat/gas/slash on sp.

[B3JOKER]

1小时前 , selig_fay 说:

We already have ShieldGate, which prevents damage to health. We have invisibility, which turns enemies into a joke. All this is extremely sad, because it turns out that our health and shields do not mean anything until we take special tanked frames. We also have a decrease in the accuracy of enemies depending on your speed and I, as Titania, predicted that it would not work. And it does not work well. Then no. I don't think it will work. We fight in narrow corridors, we do not have a shelter system, we get shooting in the back, because the enemies of Spawn are everywhere. I would like to put abilities on CD, but it should definitely not be as long as in Destiny, because you cannot wait 30-40 seconds, since the enemies are always everywhere. 

ShieldGate only last for 0.3 sec, and won't be recover until your shield is fully charged, if you take damage further, you die.

2022/8/17 PM12点26分 , Gorlust 说:

Invisibility abilities changed to break invisibility on taking damage:

• Ash’s Smoke Screen 
• Ivara’s Cloak arrow and Prowl 
• Loki’s Invisibility 
• Octavia’s Metronome’s Nocturne 
• Wisp’s passive 
• Wukong’s Cloud Walker 

look what they said

exp. Loki, he was shot by stray bullet, and his invisibility has canceled, his fragile body was exposed to the enemy, and he can not stealth again cuz the enemies are keep firing on him, what will await him next?

this is the point what I want to explain, warframe like Loki is suppose to be invisible all the time, lost this ability will make him totally not playable, and if you give his health/shield/armor buffed, what's the difference to other tank frames? as so, I ask "how to solve this problem".

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, B3JOKER said:

this is the point what I want to explain, warframe like Loki is suppose to be invisible all the time, lost this ability will make him totally not playable, and if you give his health/shield/armor buffed, what's the difference to other tank frames? as so, I ask "how to solve this problem

Let the player Loki understand that invisibility is strong and if he cannot use this, then only his fault. If you receive an impact in invisibility, then rather, it is a shot in your ally. Why are you a bodyblock of your ally?

[B3JOKER]

3分钟前 , selig_fay 说:

Let the player Loki understand that invisibility is strong and if he cannot use this, then only his fault. If you receive an impact in invisibility, then rather, it is a shot in your ally. Why are you a bodyblock of your ally?

there are so many reasons to get impact by accident, are you saying that if a player makes a mistake, it's all because he's a noob? 😂

[selig_fay]

14 minutes ago, B3JOKER said:

there are so many reasons to get impact by accident, are you saying that if a player makes a mistake, it's all because he's a noob? 😂

No. But if you make a mistake, you have 1 second to fix it because you don't agro during that 1 second. This change was made when wisp was released.

[AegidiusF]

Le 17/08/2022 à 07:12, (NSW)Vampire_Mika a dit :

how about no?

abilities are what make the game unique and im sorry but imo nerfing abilities is just completely the wrong thing to do.

 

also, this would just make the tank meta more of a thing. why play any warframe like Loki when i could just brute force missions and Smoke screen needs major buffs, like having its augment being apart of the base ability.

 

i feel like you only play low level missions with what your recommending, they are already nerfing AoE, i knew that abilities would be the next thing people would want nerfed.

 

i am sorry if this seems rude, but i am completely against this.

Totally agree with you.

[B3JOKER]

26分钟前 , selig_fay 说:

you have 1 second to fix it

but as said, if you take damage, you shows up, when shows up it always comes more damage, because the enemies will shot you, although you have 1 sec's invincible time, when the time ends, you still can not get invisible, because taking damage will break the stealth, and just one more shot is enough for your ending