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Ash and many other warframes need Buffs in a area that makes them less viable.


The_Royal_Elf_Mika

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Ash, is a great warframe. But only if you use his augments. which he needs a augment for the first 3 abilities to make them even viable to use.

so, if you want to use all 4 of your abilities instead of building for probably either Shuriken armor strip or Fatal Teleport or  Blade Storm (im sorry, but his second ability is literally pointless due to Arcane Trickery doing the same thing but flat out better.) your looking at losing atleast 2-4 mod slots out of the 8 basic you have, just to make his first 2-3 abilities VIABLE to use.

what ash and many other warframes desperately need, is for many of their augments to be made apart of the ability itself.

here are Ash's first 3 abilities and their augments:

Shuriken: its decent, but still requires its augment to be good imo.

HojoNKY.png

Smoke Screen: pretty pointless imo without the augment and the augment doesnt even add much. what this ability wants and needs completely contradicts what ash wants for his 1,3 and 4 abilities. its also made obsolete by Arcane Trickery. also, even with a high duration build, pretty much all other invis frames have much better invis, atleast make the augment a basic part of his 2 so there is some point to this ability.

NqPZxcO.png

Teleport: the ability that should automatically do a backstab without needing a augment, literally all this ability does is teleport you to a enemy and stuns it, opening it up to a finisher. wile the augment just makes it where if the enemy can be finished, it preforms a finisher right after teleporting + extra damage and energy refunding.

70Vw5GP.png

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

Ash, is a great warframe. But only if you use his augments. which he needs a augment for the first 3 abilities to make them even viable to use.

so, if you want to use all 4 of your abilities instead of building for probably either Shuriken armor strip or Fatal Teleport or  Blade Storm (im sorry, but his second ability is literally pointless due to Arcane Trickery doing the same thing but flat out better.) your looking at losing atleast 2-4 mod slots out of the 8 basic you have, just to make his first 2-3 abilities VIABLE to use.

what ash and many other warframes desperately need, is for many of their augments to be made apart of the ability itself.

here are Ash's first 3 abilities and their augments:

Shuriken: its decent, but still requires its augment to be good imo.

HojoNKY.png

Smoke Screen: pretty pointless imo without the augment and the augment doesnt even add much. what this ability wants and needs completely contradicts what ash wants for his 1,3 and 4 abilities. its also made obsolete by Arcane Trickery. also, even with a high duration build, pretty much all other invis frames have much better invis, atleast make the augment a basic part of his 2 so there is some point to this ability.

NqPZxcO.png

Teleport: the ability that should automatically do a backstab without needing a augment, literally all this ability does is teleport you to a enemy and stuns it, opening it up to a finisher. wile the augment just makes it where if the enemy can be finished, it preforms a finisher right after teleporting + extra damage and energy refunding.

70Vw5GP.png

 

 

 

 

 

also, notice how without augments his abilities have almost no effects from mods.

 

 

accidentally quoted instead of editing. 😆

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He could use some modernizing especially as, unless I'm mistaken, he is one of the oldest frames to go without a rework (unless you count the old nerfs to Bladestorm). Pretty sure the only frame to receive fewer changes for their age is Loki.

That said I don't think rolling the augments into his base kit is an appropriate direction considering how either Seeking or Fatal alone (he does not need both) let him trivialize Steel Path. It'd literally make him more of a free "win button" frame than he already is. Which is also a problem with buffing him to begin with when he already is so strong with the augments.

But also even without augments he still has a viable build by just relying on (slash) melee weapons which he buffs with his passive, Smoke Screen, and base Teleport.

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vor 39 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Vampire_Mika:

Ash, is a great warframe. But only if you use his augments. which he needs a augment for the first 3 abilities to make them even viable to use.

so, if you want to use all 4 of your abilities instead of building for probably either Shuriken armor strip or Fatal Teleport or  Blade Storm (im sorry, but his second ability is literally pointless due to Arcane Trickery doing the same thing but flat out better.) your looking at losing atleast 2-4 mod slots out of the 8 basic you have, just to make his first 2-3 abilities VIABLE to use.

what ash and many other warframes desperately need, is for many of their augments to be made apart of the ability itself.

here are Ash's first 3 abilities and their augments:

Shuriken: its decent, but still requires its augment to be good imo.

HojoNKY.png

Smoke Screen: pretty pointless imo without the augment and the augment doesnt even add much. what this ability wants and needs completely contradicts what ash wants for his 1,3 and 4 abilities. its also made obsolete by Arcane Trickery. also, even with a high duration build, pretty much all other invis frames have much better invis, atleast make the augment a basic part of his 2 so there is some point to this ability.

NqPZxcO.png

Teleport: the ability that should automatically do a backstab without needing a augment, literally all this ability does is teleport you to a enemy and stuns it, opening it up to a finisher. wile the augment just makes it where if the enemy can be finished, it preforms a finisher right after teleporting + extra damage and energy refunding.

70Vw5GP.png

 

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what I suggested before and it was happily ignored!
because they have already implemented it in the railjack with several mod tabs! the same should also be possible here.

In addition, energy costs should be halved without these mods! So 2 energy orbs and a beginner can use his 4 skill. because they have no ability strength and range and it only makes sense at low level!

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42 minutes ago, trst said:

He could use some modernizing especially as, unless I'm mistaken, he is one of the oldest frames to go without a rework (unless you count the old nerfs to Bladestorm). Pretty sure the only frame to receive fewer changes for their age is Loki.

All of his abilities have been tweaked (not outright changed though) over the years with BS getting completely reworked due to complaints. That said, Ash spent a good couple of years with a powerset where every ability kinda sucked due to tuning/feature limitations by the time DMG 1.0 was implemented. 
I agree Loki is probably the least modified frame followed by, probably, Rhino.

I don't disagree that Ash could using some tuning to bring him up to date. The problem for that frame is that it does what exactly what it is supposed to as a single target assassin frame and I could see folks asserting that rolling the augments into the base abilities sets the stage to get their capacity nerfed even though there isn't much a player would elect to slot in their place anyway.

That said, rolling the Seeking Shuriken's effect into Shuriken itself shouldn't be too much of a hassle for anyone as the use of the ability is a waste without the augment installed— Same for Hydroid's Pilfering Swarm.  

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1 hour ago, trst said:

He could use some modernizing

If my memory does not betray me, there was a video where Pablo stated why they would not continue the complete reworks of older Warframes. Mainly because of money, meaning that they need to sit down a huge part of their team to revisit, brainstorm, implement, test, scrap and possibly repeat a few steps. Then the said Warframe's popularity will rise, only for about two weeks, then it will be forgotten just as before, because other/newer Warframes are just more viable to fulfill said role.

Also, am i the only one, who remembers, that somewhere before the 80th devstream, DE stated that the Augment mods will be only TEMPORARY solution? That we would be able to 'talent' our Warframes to specialize in certain fields? Crazy right..?

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb Laveillon:

If my memory does not betray me, there was a video where Pablo stated why they would not continue the complete reworks of older Warframes. Mainly because of money, meaning that they need to sit down a huge part of their team to revisit, brainstorm, implement, test, scrap and possibly repeat a few steps. Then the said Warframe's popularity will rise, only for about two weeks, then it will be forgotten just as before, because other/newer Warframes are just more viable to fulfill said role.

Also, am i the only one, who remembers, that somewhere before the 80th devstream, DE stated that the Augment mods will be only TEMPORARY solution? That we would be able to 'talent' our Warframes to specialize in certain fields? Crazy right..?

not really. companies are all about money. otherwise they cannot survive. and there is too much competition.
the strength of warframe is only regular updates in my opinion. otherwise it would not be played at all.

and here i see that there is absolutely no idea of balance. just compare new weapon and warframes with "old" stuff. wtf is that?

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1 hour ago, Laveillon said:

they would not continue the complete reworks of older Warframes. Mainly because of money, meaning that they need to sit down a huge part of their team to revisit, brainstorm, implement, test, scrap and possibly repeat a few steps

A bunch of players have given up buying plat or even playing at all because of things like this.

But I guess new players mistakenly dumping a load of cash into the game to skip grinds, while DE sits back and watches, is the style of profit they're going for. It certainly is easy for them. Just watch the game decay, let new players throw money at problems, who even cares about old players? They don't pay any money.

Gee, I wonder why old players have stopped providing revenue...couldn't possibly be because of neglect, right?

 

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

the strength of warframe is only regular updates in my opinion.

That's the other area DE has decided to focus on. They keep churning out new content, they keep going for new player $$$, and ignore the rest of the game.

It's a bad choice.

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb mycroft_:

That's the other area DE has decided to focus on. They keep churning out new content, they keep going for new player $$$, and ignore the rest of the game.

It's a bad choice.

probably yes and and no. because I, as a player, don't care. there are far too good games out there these days and every company wants maximum player count and high levels of notoriety.
only when a company has developed top games and later constantly makes mischief, then the reputation is destroyed and their games are worth less than second-hand toilet paper.

i can also name a lot of companies from the 90s that got off to a great start. and now only to be laughed at. but you probably know who it's about. because these games made history...

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Idk I like that the teleport doesn't initiate an auto finisher by default, what if I don't want to kill an enemy but only use it to teleport right next to it, say it's a synthesis target or something similar in that regard. It's called teleport not execution. 

I see arcane trickery as nicely complimenting ash rather than making his smoke screen completely pointless, one requires you to execute a finisher the other is just a single button press, one needs energy and the other at the minimum only needs an enemy that is killable with a finisher (say parazon finisher or an another teammates ability) 

I would like to see the delay between shuriken throws being removed or the amount of shurikens increased a little though, some better visual representation with your energy color using the seeking shuriken mod would be nice to be able tell quickly which of the enemies were hit by the shurikens in a large crowd of enemies since it just picks them at random. How about making it glow and have a little shuriken icon placed above it, as is the case with his ult.

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4 hours ago, ZenDash said:

Idk I like that the teleport doesn't initiate an auto finisher by default, what if I don't want to kill an enemy but only use it to teleport right next to it, say it's a synthesis target or something similar in that regard. It's called teleport not execution. 

TBF, "hold to execute, tap to just teleport" is a pretty easy fix. Bonus points if the "tap to teleport" part doesn't require a target. Like Ash players have been asking since, IDK, 2007?

That's supposed to be hyperbole but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it goes back that far...

4 hours ago, ZenDash said:

I see arcane trickery as nicely complimenting ash rather than making his smoke screen completely pointless, one requires you to execute a finisher the other is just a single button press, one needs energy and the other at the minimum only needs an enemy that is killable with a finisher (say parazon finisher or an another teammates ability) 

Not to mention that Smokescreen is great when A: you don't have the power on Bladestorm to proc it, B: a finisher is a PITA to get, or C: it happens not to proc. Because it only has a chance to proc. That makes Smokescreen a good backup, at worst. Indeed, "Smokescreen as backup" opens up his other build options: trying to build just for Smokescreen really wants duration, but Bladestorm likes range and those two don't get along. But duration isn't as big a deal if it's just for emergencies.

Besides, with its base duration, it really does feel like an ability to use in an emergency, not all the time. Not like Loki.

Speaking as one using Trickery and Smokescreen, without the augment too, I wouldn't trade Smokescreen. Thing has saved my life on a number of occasions.

4 hours ago, ZenDash said:

I would like to see the delay between shuriken throws being removed or the amount of shurikens increased a little though, some better visual representation with your energy color using the seeking shuriken mod would be nice to be able tell quickly which of the enemies were hit by the shurikens in a large crowd of enemies since it just picks them at random. How about making it glow and have a little shuriken icon placed above it, as is the case with his ult.

You know what could be nice, too? Ricocheting shurikens so that it acts kind of like Excalibur's Slash Dash, hitting multiple targets in the path of your aiming, but at a range. That way, even if we don't get extra visibility (as we ought to), we have a good idea we hit it because we saw it and were aiming at it.

Also that takes out the wonky homing that makes the blades target some guy off to my left instead of the thing I'm looking at. Goodness that happens so often and it gets so aggravating when I'm trying to armour strip just one guy.

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13 hours ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

Ash, is a great warframe. But only if you use his augments. which he needs a augment for the first 3 abilities to make them even viable to use.

so, if you want to use all 4 of your abilities instead of building for probably either Shuriken armor strip or Fatal Teleport or  Blade Storm (im sorry, but his second ability is literally pointless due to Arcane Trickery doing the same thing but flat out better.) your looking at losing atleast 2-4 mod slots out of the 8 basic you have, just to make his first 2-3 abilities VIABLE to use.

what ash and many other warframes desperately need, is for many of their augments to be made apart of the ability itself.

here are Ash's first 3 abilities and their augments:

Shuriken: its decent, but still requires its augment to be good imo.

HojoNKY.png

Smoke Screen: pretty pointless imo without the augment and the augment doesnt even add much. what this ability wants and needs completely contradicts what ash wants for his 1,3 and 4 abilities. its also made obsolete by Arcane Trickery. also, even with a high duration build, pretty much all other invis frames have much better invis, atleast make the augment a basic part of his 2 so there is some point to this ability.

NqPZxcO.png

Teleport: the ability that should automatically do a backstab without needing a augment, literally all this ability does is teleport you to a enemy and stuns it, opening it up to a finisher. wile the augment just makes it where if the enemy can be finished, it preforms a finisher right after teleporting + extra damage and energy refunding.

70Vw5GP.png

 

 

 

 

 

Smokescreen is actually pretty good. It has a cost of 35 energy (meaning it's cheaper than similar abilities) and you are able to cast it while running and sliding without hindering movement. So while it has less duration it feels better to cast.

Using it also stuns the enemies shooting at you which can be useful in a pinch.

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13 hours ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

Ash, is a great warframe. But only if you use his augments. which he needs a augment for the first 3 abilities to make them even viable to use.

so, if you want to use all 4 of your abilities instead of building for probably either Shuriken armor strip or Fatal Teleport or  Blade Storm (im sorry, but his second ability is literally pointless due to Arcane Trickery doing the same thing but flat out better.) your looking at losing atleast 2-4 mod slots out of the 8 basic you have, just to make his first 2-3 abilities VIABLE to use.

what ash and many other warframes desperately need, is for many of their augments to be made apart of the ability itself.

here are Ash's first 3 abilities and their augments:

Shuriken: its decent, but still requires its augment to be good imo.

HojoNKY.png

Smoke Screen: pretty pointless imo without the augment and the augment doesnt even add much. what this ability wants and needs completely contradicts what ash wants for his 1,3 and 4 abilities. its also made obsolete by Arcane Trickery. also, even with a high duration build, pretty much all other invis frames have much better invis, atleast make the augment a basic part of his 2 so there is some point to this ability.

NqPZxcO.png

Teleport: the ability that should automatically do a backstab without needing a augment, literally all this ability does is teleport you to a enemy and stuns it, opening it up to a finisher. wile the augment just makes it where if the enemy can be finished, it preforms a finisher right after teleporting + extra damage and energy refunding.

70Vw5GP.png

 

 

 

 

 

I struggle to agree with the premise of the thread as I use Ash without augments often. I also have various builds I use in SP, one of which sees me become invisible maybe 5 -10%  of the time in most missions, sometimes not at all and it is the most fun build for me at present, even if it isn't' the best/safest/highest damage option. It feels like the original intent of this frame was never to be able to go invisible for the vast majority of the mission, but eh power creep changes what is possible...

I can understand wanting to see Augments be added to the base kit, as his 1 doesn't offer much value on it's own at higher levels of play and the 3 would make it easier to do finishers, which sometimes bugs a bit if trying to do it manually, but I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say he is only great when using augments.

His kit is still pretty damn good after all these years. Bug fixes and maybe a minor tweak or two, such as being able to opt out of Bladestorm after one has joined with Teleport, would be pretty nice.

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17 hours ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

Ash, is a great warframe. But only if you use his augments. which he needs a augment for the first 3 abilities to make them even viable to use.

so, if you want to use all 4 of your abilities instead of building for probably either Shuriken armor strip or Fatal Teleport or  Blade Storm (im sorry, but his second ability is literally pointless due to Arcane Trickery doing the same thing but flat out better.) your looking at losing atleast 2-4 mod slots out of the 8 basic you have, just to make his first 2-3 abilities VIABLE to use.

what ash and many other warframes desperately need, is for many of their augments to be made apart of the ability itself.

here are Ash's first 3 abilities and their augments:

Shuriken: its decent, but still requires its augment to be good imo.

HojoNKY.png

Smoke Screen: pretty pointless imo without the augment and the augment doesnt even add much. what this ability wants and needs completely contradicts what ash wants for his 1,3 and 4 abilities. its also made obsolete by Arcane Trickery. also, even with a high duration build, pretty much all other invis frames have much better invis, atleast make the augment a basic part of his 2 so there is some point to this ability.

NqPZxcO.png

Teleport: the ability that should automatically do a backstab without needing a augment, literally all this ability does is teleport you to a enemy and stuns it, opening it up to a finisher. wile the augment just makes it where if the enemy can be finished, it preforms a finisher right after teleporting + extra damage and energy refunding.

70Vw5GP.png

 

 

 

 

 

My 2 main issues with ash are the (1) forced auguments on 1 and 3, and the fact that you CANNOT recast bladestorm until it finishes the other enemies, so lets say you are in steel path and 4 enemies roll up. You mark them for bladestorm, but then another 7 enemies show up from the corridor in the side of the room. You cannot mark those enemies until the shadow clones finish with the 4 enemies, which makes bladestorm even worse when you consider there are only 2 clones active at any given time.

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On 2022-08-20 at 2:56 AM, Laveillon said:

If my memory does not betray me, there was a video where Pablo stated why they would not continue the complete reworks of older Warframes. Mainly because of money, meaning that they need to sit down a huge part of their team to revisit, brainstorm, implement, test, scrap and possibly repeat a few steps. Then the said Warframe's popularity will rise, only for about two weeks, then it will be forgotten just as before, because other/newer Warframes are just more viable to fulfill said role.

Also, am i the only one, who remembers, that somewhere before the 80th devstream, DE stated that the Augment mods will be only TEMPORARY solution? That we would be able to 'talent' our Warframes to specialize in certain fields? Crazy right..?

Less that they won't ever do reworks again and more they aren't a focus anymore.  Things that will be done when/if they have time and/or if someone has a really good idea that the team wants to try and run with.

 

As for the topic of Ash himself I disagree with him being bad without using augments.  The augments (aside from the invis one) are existing directions to push your build in if you want to focus on that ability more.  Shuriken doesn't need armor strip to be useful.  You don't need fatal teleport for that movement to be nice.  (if anything what hurts this ability is that you can't target objects with health.)  And you certainly don't need team smoke to make invis good.  I wouldn't mind seeing him get some QoL updates to make him feel more modern though.

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It seems like nothing is a focus anymore unless it makes them money IMMEDIATELY, like TennoCon or a problem that prevents new players from registering for the game.

If it doesn't make or lose them money IMMEDIATELY, it's on the back-burner indefinitely, meaning, they never touch it again. Ever.

 

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2 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

It seems like nothing is a focus anymore unless it makes them money IMMEDIATELY, like TennoCon or a problem that prevents new players from registering for the game.

If it doesn't make or lose them money IMMEDIATELY, it's on the back-burner indefinitely, meaning, they never touch it again. Ever.

Welcome to business, unfortunately. I'm sure there's a number of things DE, especially the developers, would love to do. I feel like Pablo even mentioned a few on his wish-list with the latest interview. The problem is that they have to justify the expenditure or do it for free. And nobody can work for free forever.

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35 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Welcome to business, unfortunately. I'm sure there's a number of things DE, especially the developers, would love to do. I feel like Pablo even mentioned a few on his wish-list with the latest interview. The problem is that they have to justify the expenditure or do it for free. And nobody can work for free forever.

That ain't it. Other companies do just fine. Why is DE so much more severely hindered here? Somebody said this to me in another thread yesterday:

On 2022-08-20 at 11:16 AM, Silligoose said:

I look at a company like Hello Games, the people behind No Man's Sky and see how much they've fixed with their 26 employees after the disaster of a launch, then look at DE and see how much they've fixed and elected not to fix with their 200 employees, instead focussing on side projects and some rather wasteful updates and I just do not see an increase in dev capacity changing DE's direction.

I think if they hired more devs, they'd still continue to ignore balance and maintenance and put those new devs on more side-projects or band-aid projects, ultimately wasting much of the new resource as well.

They are electing to spend time on Kahl missions instead of fixing imbalances... that says a lot about what they'd do with more programming power.


And they're right. Why is Warframe in the state that it is in, when there are over 200 (now I think it's closer to 300) employees at DE? It really says a lot about them, and the answers do not cast a good light.

 

35 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I'm sure there's a number of things DE, especially the developers, would love to do.

Yes, it's not the fault of any one developer - they're the ones being mistreated.

The solution is still the same. Hire more staff. Expand the team so they are capable of doing more. The things they would love to do, and the things they have put off doing due to a lack of care.

 

36 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

The problem is that they have to justify the expenditure

Not having a terrible mess of a game seems like pretty good justification to me.

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34 minutes ago, mycroft_ said:

That ain't it. Other companies do just fine. Why is DE so much more severely hindered here? Somebody said this to me in another thread yesterday:


And they're right. Why is Warframe in the state that it is in, when there are over 200 (now I think it's closer to 300) employees at DE? It really says a lot about them, and the answers do not cast a good light.

 

Yes, it's not the fault of any one developer - they're the ones being mistreated.

The solution is still the same. Hire more staff. Expand the team so they are capable of doing more. The things they would love to do, and the things they have put off doing due to a lack of care.

 

Not having a terrible mess of a game seems like pretty good justification to me.

We're dealing with a F2P game that's almost solely monetized by the sale of new content. The game makes everything that isn't a booster a one-time purchase, the game lacks resource sinks for boosters to be a reliable income source, and plat trade + discounts make it less likely for plat to be purchased at full value.

On top of that players drop like flies once they've finished the latest content addition. Meaning without new content it's even less likely for players to purchase old content. As well there are very few reasons to ever return to old content so the older it gets the less of an impact any remaining issues have.

Also they already have 37 open job positions. But just hiring more people won't solve the problem like you think it would. As after a point more people have diminishing returns and the more people you have the higher your overhead is which then means they have to make even more new content to afford those hires.

 

So yes, money is going to be a major concern for anything they spend dev time on. No matter how much staff they have.

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1 hour ago, mycroft_ said:

That ain't it. Other companies do just fine. Why is DE so much more severely hindered here?

Because it's Warframe. Specifically, I recall Pablo explaining that reworks don't sell. Makes sense: most people who would care for a rework of the Warframe probably already have it, and only a subset of the remainder would skip farming it to buy it outright. That means they're expending resources without sufficient profits to back up the expenditure. Generally speaking, that doesn't fly with stakeholders.

That also explains why deluxe sets and more art-centric projects tend to be at the forefront: they do sell. You have to get those through plat, after all. That's how they can have more of an art-focused team than game developers. The game, as a game, isn't the big selling point as you'd find in other games like No Man's Sky and other retail titles. It's become a framework for the artsy stuff.

With that said, there's a lot more detail in traditional inner workings. Typically, departments will have set budgets for some time period (quarterly or annually). That's how "fun side projects" can get done: they have the budget left over for it. Thing is that projects will get pushed back because it's not certain what budgeting will look like until later down the line. It's standard CYA practice: if something goes wrong, you don't want that issue to break the bank. Likewise, you don't want to go too far under budget, or you see finances in the department dwindle to match.

So departments have to approximately match budgets - not over, not too far under. That puts some constraints on what can be done. Additionally, the departments have to make that budget pull a profit. The company can't be losing money on those sorts of investments. So there's some wiggle room in the course of a given budget period, because so long as there's a profit getting pulled overall, it doesn't matter too much if a few smaller projects flop or don't pull in the cash. But at the end of it, the summation of numbers still has to work out. So you can't go ham in the "losing" projects.

There are some tricks, like doing a planning stage for a Warframe rework in one period, maybe some concepts in the next, effectively spreading out the concept. But that still means it isn't a focus. And it also means things end up released in weird orders and there's strange priorities. The Eximus rework might not be a priority over, say, reworking the damage system, but if you're having to break it up $100 at a time, the Eximus rework costs $1,000, and the damage system $10,000, then the Eximus rework will end up coming out first - just by being cheaper to finish.

1 hour ago, mycroft_ said:

The solution is still the same. Hire more staff. Expand the team so they are capable of doing more. The things they would love to do, and the things they have put off doing due to a lack of care.

Hiring more staff runs into the same pitfalls as reworks themselves: an expenditure that needs justification. It might fix it from a technical POV but it's the financial and business POVs that are the problem areas.

1 hour ago, mycroft_ said:

Not having a terrible mess of a game seems like pretty good justification to me.

You're not a business, thankfully.

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On 2022-08-20 at 3:56 AM, Laveillon said:

If my memory does not betray me, there was a video where Pablo stated why they would not continue the complete reworks of older Warframes. Mainly because of money, meaning that they need to sit down a huge part of their team to revisit, brainstorm, implement, test, scrap and possibly repeat a few steps. Then the said Warframe's popularity will rise, only for about two weeks, then it will be forgotten just as before, because other/newer Warframes are just more viable to fulfill said role.

Also, am i the only one, who remembers, that somewhere before the 80th devstream, DE stated that the Augment mods will be only TEMPORARY solution? That we would be able to 'talent' our Warframes to specialize in certain fields? Crazy right..?

Helminth

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47 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I recall Pablo explaining that reworks don't sell

If the game is broken, you have to fix it, even if 'fixing it doesn't sell'

Bare minimum maintenance is considered mandatory for a reason, even if it's not flashy...
 

47 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Generally speaking, that doesn't fly with stakeholders.

So you think this is Tencent's fault? Interesting idea. I'd like to hear more on that.

47 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

It's standard CYA practice

If CYA is the only thing you're concerned with, you're gonna miss all the other threats around you.

If they're only looking for profits, and ignoring basic maintenance costs, your 'car' is gonna break down.

They're letting essential parts of the game fall to the wayside. That's really bad.
 

47 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Hiring more staff runs into the same pitfalls as reworks themselves: an expenditure that needs justification

The current state of the game justifies it.

 

  

56 minutes ago, trst said:

Also they already have 37 open job positions. But just hiring more people won't solve the problem like you think it would. As after a point more people have diminishing returns and the more people you have the higher your overhead is which then means they have to make even more new content to afford those hires.

That's a really good point.

I guess it's a sinking ship, then. That's unfortunate.

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1 hour ago, mycroft_ said:

If the game is broken, you have to fix it, even if 'fixing it doesn't sell'

Bare minimum maintenance is considered mandatory for a reason, even if it's not flashy...

In a business sense, no, you don't necessarily have to fix it. It's only when it becomes cost-effective that a business ought to. If it isn't cost-effective, no matter how strange and backwards the result may appear, it's not in a business's best interest.

1 hour ago, mycroft_ said:

So you think this is Tencent's fault? Interesting idea. I'd like to hear more on that.

No, I don't think it's Tencent's fault. If there's any "fault" its more likely in broader capitalistic structures that promote for-profit businesses in the first place.

A business's primary concern is generating profit. That means projects and other acts that don't forward that goal are, generally, frowned upon in the business world.

1 hour ago, mycroft_ said:

If CYA is the only thing you're concerned with, you're gonna miss all the other threats around you.

If they're only looking for profits, and ignoring basic maintenance costs, your 'car' is gonna break down.

They're letting essential parts of the game fall to the wayside. That's really bad.

From a game design perspective, yeah, that's not great. And, like I said, I'm sure DE's developers have a plethora of things they would like to address. But those things have to come with business justifications. It's easy to justify login issues or critical bugs because that impacts the paying playerbase. People ain't gonna pay for a broken product, after all. But as issues drift from that critical core, like with Warframe reworks, that justification doesn't hold as much water. Is it critical that Yareli is kind of "meh"? Not really.

1 hour ago, mycroft_ said:

The current state of the game justifies it.

It doesn't, for a number of reasons:

First, the current state of the game is sufficient to support its profit-generating structures. Is it great? No. But it's on four wheels and it goes when you press the gas. It's exceptionally difficult to justify spending more money to polish things up and do things right if doing so doesn't, at minimum, cover the costs. Hiring more people falls under the same umbrella.

Second, costs aren't linear. Larger teams require more management, increasing costs for managerial salaries. Likewise, there's certain "job pressures" in the employment market. You might be able to snag, say, 20 developers from the market no problem. But getting another 10 might be a headache and a half, requiring better incentives - which, to be ethical, ought to be matched across the team - to get people in chairs.

Third, the extant team is probably more capable than you give them credit - were they unshackled from financial concerns. Pablo has a solid grasp on retooling Warframes. As I said, he's expressed desire to look at some other Warframes. What's holding him back is the business side. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of developers like Pablo who are both capable and willing to get a number of the game's facets fixed up, but who are being held back by finance. I don't remember his name exactly but there's a Joe-someone who did the Conclave rebalance ages ago, but had been moved from that. It's hard to accurately judge a team's capabilities when they've got one hand tied behind their back.

And that doesn't get into potential internal issues. Having a small army of developers does no good if they aren't leveraged properly. That makes it even more difficult to justify the expenditure. Saying it's necessary is only half of it. You have to show you're able to use it to do what's necessary, too. Competency counts.

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3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Saying it's necessary is only half of it. You have to show you're able to use it to do what's necessary, too. Competency counts.

I can agree with that in full.

I think the moral of the story here is, they already have the resources, they just won't use them in the right areas :/

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