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Ash and many other warframes need Buffs in a area that makes them less viable.


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On 2022-08-20 at 3:56 PM, Laveillon said:

If my memory does not betray me, there was a video where Pablo stated why they would not continue the complete reworks of older Warframes. Mainly because of money, meaning that they need to sit down a huge part of their team to revisit, brainstorm, implement, test, scrap and possibly repeat a few steps. Then the said Warframe's popularity will rise, only for about two weeks, then it will be forgotten just as before, because other/newer Warframes are just more viable to fulfill said role.

Also, am i the only one, who remembers, that somewhere before the 80th devstream, DE stated that the Augment mods will be only TEMPORARY solution? That we would be able to 'talent' our Warframes to specialize in certain fields? Crazy right..?

That's because those reworks are complete cr@p. And Pable is the one who knows best because the little stunt he did to Wukong, does anyone remember? That one trick to make the least used warframe having the highest usage with 1 update? Revert the Ash nerf and he will become one of the most popular warframe again in 1 patch I'm 100% sure.

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11 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

That's because those reworks are complete cr@p. And Pable is the one who knows best because the little stunt he did to Wukong, does anyone remember? That one trick to make the least used warframe having the highest usage with 1 update? Revert the Ash nerf and he will become one of the most popular warframe again in 1 patch I'm 100% sure.

It's also complete bullS#&$ because anyone remember how Nezha was reworked in 2018 and in the 2021 stats it's revealed that he's in the top 20 used Frames, and that's including duplicates like Primes and Umbras.

 

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While I don`t agree with the augments being integrated into his abilities, I do agree with him needing improvements and what Ash needs is a revisit.

When you say "I like Ash coz of" his augments and another warframe`s ability augment that`s a problem.

What I would to to his abilities is:

  • Make his 1 good on its own to where it turns his augment into a option instead of a requirement.
  • Make his 2 diverse and have multiple uses in gameplay situations.
  • His 3 consistent and bring out the full potential of the concept of teleportation.
  • Make his 4 quick and able to deal with enemies efficiently.
  • Give him real synergies that helps with his abilities and the the concept of being a ninja.

 

hlv1zuac90t51.png?width=1636&format=png&auto=webp&s=a04d9add85e5914d7234dd53ecf3606982eac06d

When I show/tell people about this stat they don`t want to believe it`s true so I'll break down why this stat is true.

 

Point 1: 

Who has access to the helminth system? we know it`s not new players coz the have to jump through hoops just to get this plus they don`t have the resources to even rank it up so I ask again who has access to the helminth system? The vets (like me) that has played wf for years and the ppl that have a lot of resources.

So basically it`s the so called "vets" that made the stat the way it is.

 

Point 2:

Marked for death was/is popular on Ash why? coz it make Ash so close to how the old (superior) bladestorm use to work. So if someone was to use MFD on Ash, what ability would they replace? well it won`t be his smoke screen coz even through it has low duration it`s still good and it won`t be teleport coz you need it to make MFD work similarly to the old bs so what options do you have to replace? Shuriken and Bladestorm

Why?

  • Shuriken is bad on it`s own (what ppl say) and even with the augment there`s no point coz bs bypasses armour and bs kills better than shuriken.
  • What`s the point of keeping bladestorm when someone wants MFD to be like the old one so theirs no point in keeping it on Ash.

And what do they both have in common? they are both damaging abilities which funny enough is what is required for the "meta"  and they are both the abilities that are replaced the most.

So these two points alone prove that stat to be true.

It`s funny how ppl believe the wukong stat but don`t believe this stat and they both came from the same place.

Ppl say bs is amazing and they love the marking mechanic (I'll keep on saying it coz no one has addressed this) but I bet if the marking mechanic was on Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, Volt and Ember the majority of ppl would complain and that alone says a lot.

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So integrate Ash's augments into his abilities, provide no ideas to redo those augments and make Ash more interesting with them and also leave out Shuriken's aug in particular since it's the Helminth ability.

As an Ash main: *Insert JJJ laugh from Spider-Man 2*

 

On 2022-08-22 at 11:04 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

When you say "I like Ash coz of" his augments and another warframe`s ability augment that`s a problem.

I love Ash for being the true ninja frame of the game. The Shroud skin has to be top tier among deluxe skins. The smoke bomb's a great escape tool (with stun on close by enemies) and makes Bladestorm cheaper to cast. Bladestorm's pretty cool in of itself, though i find using teleport to "Get in on the action" to be faff when i really just wanted to backstab an unmarked enemy. Had it bug out on me once too.

My only nitpick would be using teleport and accidentally hovering over a friendly target or player and using up that energy cost.

Augments are just the cherry on top for me. I don't feel a need to have it as my number 1 reason to like Ash. In fact, it was my 5th. But that's all personal opinion.

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On 2022-08-20 at 7:04 AM, trst said:

I don't think rolling the augments into his base kit is an appropriate direction considering how either Seeking or Fatal alone (he does not need both) let him trivialize Steel Path.

Thank you this is one reason why I don`t want this to happen, unfortunately ppl are already saying the stupid line "He`s perfect" it`s funny as good as Saryn and Wukong is (what ppl think) I never hear that line towards them but they say it to a frame where if you remove his augments you will see his issues plain as day.

No what he needs is a revisit on the level of what Nezha got or better, his 1,2 and 3 need to be given more of a reason to be used without the augments and his 4 needs to be efficent at killing enemies like the way the old bs use to be and I believe I have a solution to that.

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On 2022-08-23 at 5:53 PM, Silenzeio said:

I love Ash for being the true ninja frame of the game. The Shroud skin has to be top tier among deluxe skins. The smoke bomb's a great escape tool (with stun on close by enemies) and makes Bladestorm cheaper to cast. Bladestorm's pretty cool in of itself, though i find using teleport to "Get in on the action" to be faff when i really just wanted to backstab an unmarked enemy. Had it bug out on me once too.

My only nitpick would be using teleport and accidentally hovering over a friendly target or player and using up that energy cost.

Augments are just the cherry on top for me. I don't feel a need to have it as my number 1 reason to like Ash. In fact, it was my 5th. But that's all personal opinion.

And not a lot of ppl are saying what your saying I don`t hear ppl say something simple as "I like Ash coz he`s a ninja". When you ask someone why do you like Ash the answerer is all the same " his 1 can strip armour" "his 4th does a lot of damage in sp" "I love savage silence on Ash" Seriously go in-game and ask ppl why they like Ash, they will say something a long those lines.

Then you get ppl saying "he`s perfect" meanwhile I can point you to the issues he has and that stats that prove he`s not as perfect as you think he is (the stat I put up) and funny enoth dispite how good Saryn and mesa is I don`t hear ppl say they are perfect as much as I hear ppl say it about Ash.

When was the last time you`ve seen a video of Ash using his bladestorm with a team killing enemies side by side with them? His bladestorm can`t even kill lvl 6 enemies in a team, that`s not "Perfect" to me.

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On 2022-08-22 at 9:04 AM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

While I don`t agree with the augments being integrated into his abilities, I do agree with him needing improvements and what Ash needs is a revisit.

When you say "I like Ash coz of" his augments and another warframe`s ability augment that`s a problem.

What I would to to his abilities is:

  • Make his 1 good on its own to where it turns his augment into a option instead of a requirement.
  • Make his 2 diverse and have multiple uses in gameplay situations.
  • His 3 consistent and bring out the full potential of the concept of teleportation.
  • Make his 4 quick and able to deal with enemies efficiently.
  • Give him real synergies that helps with his abilities and the the concept of being a ninja.

 

hlv1zuac90t51.png?width=1636&format=png&auto=webp&s=a04d9add85e5914d7234dd53ecf3606982eac06d

When I show/tell people about this stat they don`t want to believe it`s true so I'll break down why this stat is true.

 

Point 1: 

Who has access to the helminth system? we know it`s not new players coz the have to jump through hoops just to get this plus they don`t have the resources to even rank it up so I ask again who has access to the helminth system? The vets (like me) that has played wf for years and the ppl that have a lot of resources.

So basically it`s the so called "vets" that made the stat the way it is.

 

Point 2:

Marked for death was/is popular on Ash why? coz it make Ash so close to how the old (superior) bladestorm use to work. So if someone was to use MFD on Ash, what ability would they replace? well it won`t be his smoke screen coz even through it has low duration it`s still good and it won`t be teleport coz you need it to make MFD work similarly to the old bs so what options do you have to replace? Shuriken and Bladestorm

Why?

  • Shuriken is bad on it`s own (what ppl say) and even with the augment there`s no point coz bs bypasses armour and bs kills better than shuriken.
  • What`s the point of keeping bladestorm when someone wants MFD to be like the old one so theirs no point in keeping it on Ash.

And what do they both have in common? they are both damaging abilities which funny enough is what is required for the "meta"  and they are both the abilities that are replaced the most.

So these two points alone prove that stat to be true.

It`s funny how ppl believe the wukong stat but don`t believe this stat and they both came from the same place.

Ppl say bs is amazing and they love the marking mechanic (I'll keep on saying it coz no one has addressed this) but I bet if the marking mechanic was on Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, Volt and Ember the majority of ppl would complain and that alone says a lot.

I have to agree "just integrate the Augments" isn't a real solution. DE made those functions as an Augment already and they clearly think they're too powerful to have as a baseline effect, so just drop that idea. You have to actually put more into him.

For his 1, Shuriken's obviously biggest issues are that it lacks true synergy with Ash's kit and doesn't deal any meaningful damage. So, change it up a bit mechanically.

- Ash now throws 1/2/3/4 Shurikens per throw. You can now Hold-Cast to double the cost and throw out twice the amount of Shuriken's that do not strip Armor with Seeking Shuriken. Shuriken's now prioritize seeking out multiple targets instead of focusing on one. Shuriken tracking is now more focused on hitting enemies in front of Ash than enemies to his sides or directly behind him.

- Shuriken now always deals Headshot Bleed damage and has its base damage buffed to 800. Each hit from your previously thrown Shuriken multiplies the damage of your next Shuriken throw by 0.5x per hit at base and this is affected by Power Strength. This buff is removed on each successive cast.

- Enemies hit by Shuriken bleed more easily, increasing the chance for Bleed Procs to occur on them by 50% at base similar to Garuda. This is not affected by Power Strength.

For some other small changes;

- Base Ash now has 150 Armor and Ash Prime now has 300 base Armor.

- The stun effect from Ash's 2 now has the effect time increased or decreased with Duration.

- Teleport now heals Ash by 20 Health per meter traveled, and this increases with Power Strength. 

- Bladestorm can now be repeatedly cast without ending it, and will only end when it is Hold-Cast or when Ash runs out of Energy.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2022-08-25 at 10:36 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

And not a lot of ppl are saying what your saying I don`t hear ppl say something simple as "I like Ash coz he`s a ninja". When you ask someone why do you like Ash the answerer is all the same " his 1 can strip armour" "his 4th does a lot of damage in sp" "I love savage silence on Ash" Seriously go in-game and ask ppl why they like Ash, they will say something a long those lines.

Then you get ppl saying "he`s perfect" meanwhile I can point you to the issues he has and that stats that prove he`s not as perfect as you think he is (the stat I put up) and funny enoth dispite how good Saryn and mesa is I don`t hear ppl say they are perfect as much as I hear ppl say it about Ash.

When was the last time you`ve seen a video of Ash using his bladestorm with a team killing enemies side by side with them? His bladestorm can`t even kill lvl 6 enemies in a team, that`s not "Perfect" to me.

Level 6 enemies?

Citation please before making such laughable comments.

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59 minutes ago, Silenzeio said:

Level 6 enemies?

Citation please before making such laughable comments.

the key word is "in a team" that probably means that Ash's bladestorm is not fast enough to kill all the targeted enemies before a teammate come and "steal" the kills, making you wasting time in targeting enemies you will never kill

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12 hours ago, MrJack20252 said:

the key word is "in a team" that probably means that Ash's bladestorm is not fast enough to kill all the targeted enemies before a teammate come and "steal" the kills, making you wasting time in targeting enemies you will never kill

Those enemies are pretty much stunned and forgotten about. The squads i've run into in the time he's been by main haven't killed any enemy my clones were killing.

And at the time you're running railjack to farm Ash, level 6 enemies as pointed out by the comment above..... Shouldn't even be discussed. If you're running Corpus railjack, you've got the gear to kill a lot of enemies. So level 6 is a laughable excuse to plant a 'gotcha' moment.

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On 2022-09-14 at 6:34 PM, MrJack20252 said:

the key word is "in a team" that probably means that Ash's bladestorm is not fast enough to kill all the targeted enemies before a teammate come and "steal" the kills, making you wasting time in targeting enemies you will never kill

 

On 2022-09-14 at 5:33 PM, Silenzeio said:

Level 6 enemies?

Citation please before making such laughable comments.

 

# Ash cant kill on earth 1 by Aaronj-c

Warframe 20210408112345 by Aaronj-c

 

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6 minutes ago, Silenzeio said:

26 kills? I just see a semi afk player. This is meant to be the big 'gotcha' response? I can play any frame with friends, walk into an Earth def and do the same thing and call them all bad or how they need to be better.

The results look totally plausible to me.  Even if the other player was trying as had as possible, Bladestorm is going to be very slow compared to a decent Nezha build using Divine Spears or even Fire Walker. 

The underlying issue with Vexx's test is it's judging a single tool in Ash's kit based on level 6 enemies.  Shuriken is the natural tool to use in that situation if one is insisting on using an Ash ability at all.  (Rather than any number of weapons, or an appropriate frame for the job.  Either of which can be way better at it than either Ash or Nezha.)

A meatier example would have levels much higher than  6 but not high level either.   Shuriken falls off very fast and Bladestorm is slow until most frames start slowing down.  It still pretends weapons don't exist and that damage ultimates have to stand on their own killing trash in teamplay, but one can kind of see the issue.

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Ash is my most used warframe (well Ash P.) (~250 hours with him)

I pretty much only do steel path missions unless Nightwave or new content pulls me back to normal starchart.

He does not need a rework - although I wouldn't complain if somethings were changed.

I would prefer Seeking Shuriken to strip armour without the augment because its even more useless than most 1st abilities unless you have the augment.

His invisibility and its low cost is amazing - can easily stay invis for hours even with negative efficiency.

I helmith'd away his 3 - Maybe if it did the finisher like it used to rather than a two-step, and did more damage I'd keep it.
I don't use bladestorm much - someone quoted vs level 6 enemies - who is bothering with what any frame can do vs normal star chart enemies?

Complaining his kit doesn't do much damage - lets give loki some way of doing damage (or some team buffs like creating dummy clones of all players as a means of a trickster's crowd control, or granting teammates in the radius of radial disarm evasion stats for the duration... or something) before messing with Ash.

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@(XBOX)THE NTT @Silenzeio @Tiltskillet

I`ll explain. The point of the image is to show that Ash is not fast enough to kill enemies when going up against wf`s abilities the ppl don`t consider as killing abilities (Mag, Oberon, Nazha`s 4th).

What I said to the person was let`s do a Earth defence mission up to wave 5 and we can only kill enemies with our 4th abilities.

I'm not showing the amount of damage they can do (we know the damage Ash can dish out), I'm showing the total amount of kills they get. When Ash marks enemies, he has to look at them dead in the face, if a enemy runs behind cover Ash has to run around the obstacle just to mark it/them and what have your teammates done by the time you done all that marking....

And the reason I use lvl 6 is coz their will be that one new player that loves Ash and love bs and tries to use it on Earth defence and then that person is going to realise pretty quick that in a team he can`t use it an by himself how tedious it is using it, so me using lvl 6 enemies is realistic but ppl don`t see that coz they talk about Ash based on how they play not seeing the bigger picture.

I use lvl 6 as an example so ppl can`t use the excuse of "but his damage doh" coz these are lvl 6s Nekros` 1 can kill them that`s not the point. I even did this test again with another person only that person cheated and used shuriken (which ppl don`t see as a good ability) and using weapons and even then I still beat the person.

I even spoken to players and the majority of them tell me the same thing, They listen to a YouTube talking about how amazing and how perfect he is, they get him, play him and toss him to one side and when I ask them why? it`s not coz his one is weak, its not coz his 2 has low duration, it`s not coz his 3 is inconsistent and always coz of the marking mechanic on his bs.

Now when you compare it to the old bs it never had that problem, it could be used anytime, anywhere.

There is nothing no one can say to me when this stat exists.

hlv1zuac90t51.png?width=1636&format=png&auto=webp&s=a04d9add85e5914d7234dd53ecf3606982eac06d

 

And this is how I feel when ppl don`t believe me.

Spoiler

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

I`ll explain. The point of the image is to show that Ash is not fast enough to kill enemies when going up against wf`s abilities the ppl don`t consider as killing abilities (Mag, Oberon, Nazha`s 4th).

I really don't see the issue.

He has some abilities that kill.  He has some abilities that trivialize killing.  Other warframes have the same.  Some warframes don't even have that (Loki i'm looking at you).

You are suggesting he needs a rework because new players don't understand the above?  


Or are you suggesting he needs  a rework because some other frames have abilities that can kill low level enemies and can kill those low level enemies faster than some other abilities that can kill high level enemies?  Do you even realize how many different scenarios this is true for? 


Does saryn need a rework because there are many frames that could nuke level 6 enemies before her spores or miasma could do anything?

It sounds to me like new players that watch youtube videos then can't replicate their success are the problem not an individual frame.  Maybe when they actually learn something on their own rather than some scrub who makes videos for views they'll come back around to Ash.  Or maybe not.  Who cares?

Ash is not a low level star chart nuking frame.  Don't break him into one.

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@(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg

I don`t want Ash to get a rework.

 

On 2022-09-24 at 3:03 PM, bad4youLT said:

Ash Blade Storm needs an actual rework instead of nerf labeled as "rework" .

Ash don`t need a rework, the concept of his abilities are solid. No what he needs is a revisit, if he can get a revisit on the level of Nezha or better that would be great. Ash for bs, it needs to be reverted back to the way it was (Without the issues).

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As an ash main I agree with most of your post OP.

Fatal Teleport 100% should be his 3. Period. Teleport without the mod is absolutely useless. 

For those who don't play Ash. Teleport alerts enemies so it's not like you can use it then perform a finisher. 

Smoke Screen is the worst Invisibility in the game. So it might as well have it's augment rolled into it. The added utility would be a fair justification for thr ability's lackluster duration.

While I'd loved to be based and have armor strip added to shuriken. That's be alittle too unnecessarily OP. That should definitely be left alone. 

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4 hours ago, (PSN)Zero_029 said:

Fatal Teleport 100% should be his 3. Period. Teleport without the mod is absolutely useless. 

I like using finishers  so I way prefer using it with FT.  But being able to tele to an enemy and have the option whether to use a finisher  or not isn't -absolutely- useless.  Practically speaking, a finisher is often a stylish waste of time.  Teleport on its own can be a nice little mobility tool, and if you want to kill stuff at the end of it, it might be better to use a weapon to kill multiple enemies.  Instead of waiting around for a finisher animation to kill one target first.

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)Zero_029 said:

For those who don't play Ash. Teleport alerts enemies so it's not like you can use it then perform a finisher.

It usually alerts the target but it also opens them up to finishers if they're eligible.  

But Eximus turn this upsidedown.  Overguard prevents them from being eligible for non-FT finishers, but being a Teleport target won't alert them on its own either.  If they're not alerted, they can still be stealth finished.

Eximus are pretty enticing targets for finishing moves though, and stealth finishers aren't a practical way to do it compared to FT's forced finisher.  Alert or not, eximus or not, it doesn't care.  And the ever important style points, of course.

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20 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

It usually alerts the target but it also opens them up to finishers if they're eligible.  

Problem is it shifts enemies so that finishers do not work. (It shifts them out of position) and even if your invisible it breaks stealth multiplyer. FT "usually" doesn't. FT also deals bonus damage during its finisher (making it very worthwhile.)

Eitherway as the "Ninja Assassin" Warframe he shouldn't need an augment to "assassinate".

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