Third-Party Software and You

[[DE]Dudley]

Hello, Tenno!

With respect to recent conversations, we wanted to bring this previously posted PSA to the forefront:

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist in cheating, there are some cases where software falls into gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.
 

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and/or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

8/23/2022
As of more recently, we’re aware of recent conversations around Overwolf and their apps. The above also applies to those apps (and all other third-party software). We would like to make it clear that our involvement with Overwolf is simply that we’ve had conversations to ensure that Warframe’s EULA and ToS are not being breached in any way.
 

[Famecans]

I use Logitech G HUB for my mouse with autoclick macro system for shooting and skill spamming. how far can i use this without being penalized?

Note: I work in graphic design and I have repetitive strain injuries from work, so I use macro for some games.

[shut]

6 minutes ago, Famecans said:

I use Logitech G HUB for my mouse with autoclick macro system for shooting and skill spamming. how far can i use this without being penalized?

Note: I work in graphic design and I have repetitive strain injuries from work, so I use macro for some games.

I'm curious about this too. I haven't used macro programs before, but I've been contemplating whether I should use one to mash the Melee button so that I can make full use of attack speed without risking an RSI.

Would something simple like this be okay?

[Zahnny]

7 minutes ago, Famecans said:

I use Logitech G HUB for my mouse with autoclick macro system for shooting and skill spamming. how far can i use this without being penalized?

Note: I work in graphic design and I have repetitive strain injuries from work, so I use macro for some games.

This actually reminds me, I had a friend get banned from a Team Fortress 2 community server because his Logitech mouse with certain built in features managed to trigger the servers built in custom anti-cheat.

[Numerounius]

I suspect the upcoming Wukong Changes and heavy talks about using the frame for AFK measures is going to have something to do with this post since one point of using Macros is to automate gameplay to bypass an AFK detection filter which could see an uptick if the most common way to afk is taken away.

 

This post would have also been a good point to reiterate the stances on using the warframe API to pull information such as twitch's API warframe extension and others that may also pull information in a similar manner like Overframe's Player Sync app. Since that is something that I see a lot of people asking about that is in a similar vein of using third party programs for Warframe but not in conjunction with Warframe running.

[-DL-Interittus]

23 minutes ago, Famecans said:

I use Logitech G HUB for my mouse with autoclick macro system for shooting and skill spamming. how far can i use this without being penalized?

Note: I work in graphic design and I have repetitive strain injuries from work, so I use macro for some games.

Don't even risk it,

I know personal friends who have been banned for macros.

Every time they open tickets they are given the same response everytime i.e. banned exploiting from third party programs.

[Famecans]

21 minutes ago, shut said:

I'm curious about this too. I haven't used macro programs before, but I've been contemplating whether I should use one to mash the Melee button so that I can make full use of attack speed without risking an RSI.

Would something simple like this be okay?

I think if the combo system required a more complex gameplay dependent on the use of more buttons and movement strategies the frame could be boosted with more damage and more survivability so the player wouldn't press a single button to sweep crowds or blow up a room quickly before dying.

[Hello]

Main reason why I'm scared to play a mobile game the same time as Warframe. I use an emulator (LDPlayer or BlueStacks) for some mobile games since my phone struggles but who knows if your sensitive system would flag something that doesn't even touch Warframe just simply for being open. This is actually the reason why I only play Warframe for like 30 minutes or an hour each night to claim the daily tribute. Closing this to play another game that takes more attention. If I could confidently have Warframe and an emulator open, I would play a lot more.

Your outdated trade ban system for "abnormal" results lost the confidence I have in any of your automated systems.

[MrsSilverAndro]

1 hour ago, [DE]Dudley said:

As of more recently, we’re aware of recent conversations around Overwolf and their apps. The above also applies to those apps (and all other third-party software). We would like to make it clear that our involvement with Overwolf is simply that we’ve had conversations to ensure that Warframe’s EULA and ToS are not being breached in any way.

Interesting, I had always heard that they paid/worked out a deal for some sort of custom API access, wonder how those plugins are working then if not that.

[ChozenBardoUmbra]

1 hour ago, Famecans said:

I use Logitech G HUB for my mouse with autoclick macro system for shooting and skill spamming. how far can i use this without being penalized?

Note: I work in graphic design and I have repetitive strain injuries from work, so I use macro for some games.

They have said in the past, that unless the Macro is just to execute a combo (like Ctrl + Space for Bullet jump or Void Sling) and not automate gameplay, then it's fine, but it was an old stance, maybe with this they changed their mind, hope not, some Semi auto weapons are hard to use, or more fun to use when you can Spam click, or use a macro for autoclicking, which many modern mice have a function to do.

[PublikDomain]

It'd be nice if you'd just build in the most common features players are having to automate themselves, like:

• Click and hold semi-auto/semi-burst guns to fire them repeatedly, but not at their max possible speed
• Click and hold melee to attack repeatedly
• Click and hold an ability key to repeatedly cast it

Macros like these are not only a big help for reducing hand strain, they're also a massive improvement to the gameplay experience as a whole. Why do you not just support these options by default?

Because I use Logitech's G HUB like @Famecans, and I can do a lot more with the macro features than I already do. Are you going 2035 anyone that owns a mouse and keyboard for having their hardware manufacturers' default software installed?

[quxier]

1 hour ago, [DE]Dudley said:

Bans for altering game files, cheating and/or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

Ok, but can I you (false) ban people just for having software (program) run on their computers? For example I'm running program named "warframehack.exe". It should result in any ban but I have seen video where just typing "cheatengine" in the notepad causes bans:

I'm not sure if game from above video is doing legal (I'm not Lawyer like person in that video).

15 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It'd be nice if you'd just build in the most common features players are having to automate themselves, like:

• Click and hold semi-auto/semi-burst guns to fire them repeatedly, but not at their max possible speed
• Click and hold melee to attack repeatedly
• Click and hold an ability key to repeatedly cast it

Macros like these are not only a big help for reducing hand strain, they're also a massive improvement to the gameplay experience as a whole. Why do you not just support these options by default?

I wonder why not just make simple "macro engine" for stuffs like this. Person can download & upload their code. If code is bad then people will get some message instead of bans (for few first cases).

[Energy_Dispenser_Prime]

I'd like to see a much more concrete list of popular software then your bullS#&$ response of using software at your own risk. For all I know I could get banned for playing solitaire on the side. 

[QUBITSKIE]

I used this tool to manage my inventory and buy/sell in WF Market and I also use this to plan my relics runs to know which relics are profitable is this allowed?

 

 

[LillyRaccune]

At least it was clear that those who need software assistance can appeal their case to the Support Team. There is a burden of proof, but some physio-medical conditions are easy to verify.

 

Also, I just realized a good reason NOT to list the names of banned software is the same as not telling former drug addicts what neighbourhoods to avoid because of local drug dealers. Ignorance is a better form of prevention than prohibition is.

[Numerikuu]

43 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It'd be nice if you'd just build in the most common features players are having to automate themselves, like:

• Click and hold semi-auto/semi-burst guns to fire them repeatedly, but not at their max possible speed
• Click and hold melee to attack repeatedly
• Click and hold an ability key to repeatedly cast it

Macros like these are not only a big help for reducing hand strain, they're also a massive improvement to the gameplay experience as a whole. Why do you not just support these options by default?

Because I use Logitech's G HUB like @Famecans, and I can do a lot more with the macro features than I already do. Are you going 2035 anyone that owns a mouse and keyboard for having their hardware manufacturers' default software installed?

This would be a very nice and welcome addition imo. I personally don't need such features, but know of a bunch of people who very much do--especially in the melee department. People with Carpal Tunnel, Reynauds Syndrome etc who avoid using melee weapons/frames because mashing E is hell for them.

13 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

Also, I just realized a good reason NOT to list the names of banned software is the same as not telling former drug addicts what neighbourhoods to avoid because of local drug dealers. Ignorance is a better form of prevention than prohibition is.

^This. As a former MMO GM the last thing you want to do is advertise every single bot/hack software available for your game. hence the 'use at your own risk' statement. TLDR just don't use anything that'll alter Warframe, or play the game for you.

[RoninSAngel]

I'm curious what qualifies as a third party program. I've ran genshin impact while running warframe because I had forgotten to do something on one or the other. I also have been known to listen to YouTube while just cracking relics. I also wonder, though I highly doubt, about discord as well since a lot od people use it to communicate with friends.

[Bismarck]

Microstoft is a third-party in that scenario, so i guess i'm running Windows at my own risk then?
 

1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said:

Also, I just realized a good reason NOT to list the names of banned software is the same as not telling former drug addicts what neighbourhoods to avoid because of local drug dealers. Ignorance is a better form of prevention than prohibition is.

No, the proper drug comparison would be the goverment telling people "do drugs at your own discretion, but we will sentence you for life if you do wrong ones, have fun". Fantastic form of prevention indeed.
 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Bismarck
reading

[ABlindGuyPlays]

5 hours ago, [DE]Dudley said:

Hello, Tenno!

With respect to recent conversations, we wanted to bring this previously posted PSA to the forefront:

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist in cheating, there are some cases where software falls into gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.
 

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and/or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

8/23/2022
As of more recently, we’re aware of recent conversations around Overwolf and their apps. The above also applies to those apps (and all other third-party software). We would like to make it clear that our involvement with Overwolf is simply that we’ve had conversations to ensure that Warframe’s EULA and ToS are not being breached in any way.
 

'We don't want ot give out a list because we want to provide exceptions for some people whom we like and have a back pocket reason for banning anyone else.'

Keeping information where, IN YOUR OWN WORDS the consequence is 'firm and final' that you choose to not provide even GUIDELINES past 'oh teehee our invisible not user facing list MAY change and you could get swept up if you use something like a shader tool, or your use of a macro is to help with physical disability and we will do so without warning. Don't say you weren't warned!'

Is... frankly? Scummy and antagonistic to the playerbase.
Give us something to work with 
Not 'oh we're gonna be vauge as all get otu so we can play favorites.' 

 

An addendum:

I play on linux via Proton-GE.

IS THAT considered third party? It's not windows. It could have 'bad stuff' baked into the codebase. How do I know I won't get banned?

You might call me paranoid or concern trolling, or mocking. However from the end user perspective if your sysrtem flags my account as abnormal how am I to be sure I won't get a sledgehammer taken to me that lasts til 2035?

 

edit: thanks mods for post combining rather than deleting material. this is a touchy subject all 'round and i know i annoy several of you. so credit where due. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by ABlindGuyPlays

[Danielw8]

Time to update the game guys, add something like what overwolf does and warframe market ingame

Sounds really bad if you are veteran and you need a cheap external program to actually organize and sell your stuff

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It'd be nice if you'd just build in the most common features players are having to automate themselves, like:

• Click and hold semi-auto/semi-burst guns to fire them repeatedly, but not at their max possible speed
• Click and hold melee to attack repeatedly
• Click and hold an ability key to repeatedly cast it

Macros like these are not only a big help for reducing hand strain, they're also a massive improvement to the gameplay experience as a whole. Why do you not just support these options by default?

Because I use Logitech's G HUB like @Famecans, and I can do a lot more with the macro features than I already do. Are you going 2035 anyone that owns a mouse and keyboard for having their hardware manufacturers' default software installed?

This.

Also, consider just the fact that DE basically has to spend time / money addressing these issues, and the bans surrounding them. The more accessibility features are implemented, the less time / money is spent long-term.

Alternatively / additionally, albeit controversially, it might help to point to some sort of macro software that is allowed. That way, if DE doesn't want to go the route of supporting those features in-game, there's at least one known, accepted piece of software people can flock toward. If that needs to be updated for the discovery of some exploit, then so be it, but in lieu of more accessibility in-game, it would go a long way to quelling worries over getting banned for trying to prevent RSIs.

Bonus points if people are able to share scripts for that. Extra points if DE provides scripts for the same sort of "peace of mind" reasons. I get accessibility features in Warframe can be a PITA, so scribbling up a few accepted AutoHotkey scripts might very well be easier.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Tyreaus

[Tiikaan]

What about playing WF on Steam Deck? As an earlier post mentioned - running on Proton. Could you possibly make a statement about it? At the moment it's basically 'You are not banned until you are banned', which feels rather risky.

I would expect it to be solved when (if) cross play comes out (because of Android), but still...

Regarding automation - press to hold option would be great for accessibility/RSI/button life (I rarely use regular melee weapons because of this).

Edited January 25, 2023 by Tiikaan

[Voltage]

Reposting the 2019 PSA from [DE]Bear just re-opens the conversation of how vague and unhelpful this statement is. It doesn't help that the anti-cheat for this game is pretty bad, to the point where many players (including myself) just ignore long missions altogether.

You guys could also reduce the popularity of this problem by addressing things like offensive Specters playing for you. It doesn't totally prevent this situation from arising, but it's a step in reducing the encouragement for the game to play itself. Wukong is in line for a set of nerfs, but On Call Crew, Railjack Crewmates, Tenno Specters, Index Specter teammates, Duality for Equinox and Excalibur Umbra all share this issue. You can even see this work against you in the Deimos Bounty "Brute Force" where Garv and his Grineer auto-target enemies as they spawn from the Infested Pods in the Cambion Drift. The only way to completely steal Garv's kills is through Specters or Mesa's Peacemaker.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Voltage

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

14 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The only way to completely steal Garv's kills is through Specters or Mesa's Peacemaker.

Pssst....Necromech Voidrig says he's available to help too!

[Voltage]

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

Pssst....Necromech Voidrig says he's available to help too!

Breaking Infested Pods does not contribute to the objective, hence why I didn't mention any AoE/nukes.