Jump to content

Third-Party Software and You


Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, UmbraAtrox said:

Now i'd love to know How does overwolf/AlecaFrame get its data with such speed and accuracy while not reading rom Ram? Afaik the whole reason WFinfo only takes screenshots to analyze is to not break eula but when GamingBrandXYZ™ comes and does it anyway its all fine? #corpo4corpo ?

i bet it's #corpo4corpo. lots of fans try to get in touch with such video game companies to try and make "permissible" apps and get treated like trash. slap a brand name on and suddenly S#&$'s real. absolutely ridiculous. wouldn't be surprised if the conversations that were had involved money.

potentially black box code by a for-profit company? DE: *sleeps*

open source community driven code? DE: REAL S#&$

 

i hate capitalism

Edited by CatboyPrincess
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Myscho said:

So about what is this thread ? I expect list of potentially bannable apps or something, not this, you use something at your own risk.... really ? 

It's just a copout response from a DE official.

They've acknowledged that some software or applications are useful but even if they are useful its up to DE whether they find the explanation sufficient.

By providing no framework at all, they can make whatever corporate deals they want with people like Overwolf and lock the community out of filling in the feature gaps.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Vaemarr said:

By providing no framework at all, they can make whatever corporate deals they want with people like Overwolf and lock the community out of filling in the feature gaps.

Just as cynically, and going off their past behavior with chat moderators and other friends, they can make personal exceptions for friends and fawners who do a thing. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not fair to the player-base to re-hash this with the same unhelpful stance.

I use G-Hub for a simple macro to automate high fire rate semi-auto weapons that are really uncomfortable to spam. Is that an issue???

We don't need a list of good/bad software. Just some simple guidelines on the acceptable complexity of a macro would be nice.

Edited by Wolfram
grammar
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

On 2022-08-29 at 12:06 PM, CatboyPrincess said:

potentially black box code by a for-profit company? DE: *sleeps*

open source community driven code? DE: REAL !?????????!

(quote edited to prevent myself from getting punished.)
Ye, also they always fast on removing cursewords and punishing the user as we are not allowed to use the full vocabulary in forums to a M-rated game. Seems especially fair when you consider they already have a censorbot in place which only deceives the writer into thinking the cursing has been handled, which it has not, if a mod sees your post it gets removed and you get a point. 

https://forums.warframe.com/guidelines/
4) PROFANITY – Keep it clean people! Any amount of swearing and/or vulgarity, even if censored, will not be tolerated.  

This is where we at btw. You write a doodoo word, Bot comes and censors but then also a mod has to see your post only then it gets removed and you get warned anyway. If only there was a way to tell the machine to do machine things.... I bet they don't even get a notification when the bot censors something, which would make it based solely on chance if you get punished or not. 
 

On 2022-08-29 at 1:11 PM, Myscho said:

I expect list of potentially bannable apps or something

 

Lol, This will end up just like the Strict NAT thread which THEY created, THEY stickied and THEY chose to ignore while players still have the same issues almost a decade later. All you get is a new Warframe. You like new Warframes, don't you?

Also a list of potentially bannable apps won't work. Imagine they put "CheatsoftwareA" on the list, cheatcreator renames app to "CheatsooftwareB" which wouldn't be on the list and technically eligible for a unban/review/whatever. You see where this is going. 
Whitelist is equally bad for already stated reasons as of now we have a whitelist with Overwolf/alecaframe being the only (vague) entry. 

What we need is a list of methods which are CLEARLY allowed or forbidden. 

I'll start, feel free to add or modify the list, DE only has to replace my preferred answers in the [Brackets] with their own:

  • Are we allowed to READ ram?(read inventory, mastery, map, whatever happens ingame) -- [Yes, solo only]
  • Are we allowed to WRITE ram? -- [Hell no! Don't even try!]
  • Are we allowed capture (READ) packets (network) -- [Yes]
  • Are we allowed inject/modify (WRITE) packets -- [No]
  • Are we allowed to use the mobile API to READ? (fetch inventory)(Note: Mobile login causes desktop to disconnect) -- [Yes]
  • Are we allowed to use the mobile API to WRITE? (start foundry task) -- [No]
  • Are we allowed to use Autohotkey, iCUE, Swarm, Synapse(macro activated on keypress) -- [Yes, solo only]
  • Are we allowed to generate keypress from software (macro activated by script)  -- [Yes, solo only]

 

[Yes, solo only] means if your app uses this method it is not allowed to use any other method or interact with other apps using different methods. To prevent full automation. This does not include 3rd party api access (eg. warframe market) so apps like Alecaframe would still be possible.


____________________________________________

OT: On another note, i was curious what Staff is posting and stopped at Rebecca when i noticed she has 7050 posts but no matter what i search for i only find the 7 posts shown in her profile. What's up with that? Where did her other 7043 posts go? Would be a waste if they were gone.

https://forums.warframe.com/profile/4-derebecca/
https://forums.warframe.com/search/?&q=can&author=[DE]Rebecca&search_and_or=or
https://forums.warframe.com/search/?&q=you&author=[DE]Rebecca&search_and_or=or
 

Edit: Lol, her posts are definitely disappearing its only 3 now. 

Edited by UmbraAtrox
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just found AlecaFrame and it would be a GREAT help organizing stuff, so i wanted to see if it's ok to use.

If i understand this right a big problem with whitelisting third-party-tools is that it may be ok now, but once whitelisted they add features that DE don't want, simply spoken.

But maybe you could do it like that:

You get, lets say, Version 1.0 of AlecaFrame and check it if it is to your liking. If yes, you yourself provide this exact version on your homepage for everyone to download and use. You could alter it a tiny bit so that only you can check if someone uses the correct version.

Once the dev of AlecaFrame has some new features etc and provides you with Version 1.1, you can check it again and update your homepage.

I don't know how viable this really is, i just thought this would be a kinda simple way to provide a tool that really helps a lot.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, NinaBlack said:

I just found AlecaFrame and it would be a GREAT help organizing stuff, so i wanted to see if it's ok to use.

If i understand this right a big problem with whitelisting third-party-tools is that it may be ok now, but once whitelisted they add features that DE don't want, simply spoken.

But maybe you could do it like that:

You get, lets say, Version 1.0 of AlecaFrame and check it if it is to your liking. If yes, you yourself provide this exact version on your homepage for everyone to download and use. You could alter it a tiny bit so that only you can check if someone uses the correct version.

Once the dev of AlecaFrame has some new features etc and provides you with Version 1.1, you can check it again and update your homepage.

I don't know how viable this really is, i just thought this would be a kinda simple way to provide a tool that really helps a lot.

 

I'll tell a tale that people who weren't playing New World during its crash&burn phase may not know. The game had no minimap, just a compass, and resource nodes only showed on that within a very limited distance and only with specific gathering levels. A lot of players clamoured for a minimap or for recorded resources nodes, and told no; they asked for mod support/approval, and told no, with a similar "we approve none, fringe case disputes may be accepted at our discretion but use at your own risk" statement. Overwolf published an add-on that was a minimap that displayed resource nodes, and many people, again, hammered AGS to allow it. Overwolf suddenly announced that AGS had said no one would be banned for using their minimap, AGS two days later made a statement saying that was a lie but they had agreed to look at the current version to confirm if it does break TOS only. A while later, Overwolf came out saying the current version of the app was confirmed to not break TOS, as did AGS...except AGS said at the same time approval was only as long as it didn't show resource nodes, which the current version did. After some confused back and forth, it turned out that Overwolf had shown AGS a version that literally did not exist - one without resource nodes - and given it the same version number. AGS had to walk back their version-approval and fall back on the "as long as it doesn't break these rules" stance, which explicitly would exclude that node-including minimap. Overwolf, having previously been super keen to make announcements before AGS had even agreed to them, remained silent. Several users of the mod started getting banned, and raging because they'd been told by Overwolf it was approved and verified that with the AGS post (but read the first paragraph only) and hadn't read the clarification or the later response confirming the approval was revoked due to Overwolf scamming AGS to get it. 

I have no idea if the minimap mod and/or AGS's stance have since changed, or what the current state of play is there. But the take away is that it would be far too easy for a mod/app/add-on developer to submit one thing for approval and another for publication both under the same version number so that a rule-breaker version gets added to whitelist. And Overwolf specifically have already done exactly that with a mainstream studio. So it wouldn't be a reasonable thing to ask for, and really just increases risk to users who may not be aware of the subterfuge and wind up banned when a whitelisting is revoked without a versioned change. 

I do agree specifics on what generally is or is not allowed (eg is allowed to read inventory, is allowed to repeat a single key press, is not allowed to automate multiple different keys pressed in sequence, etc.), is a reasonable ask. While it could never cover all use cases, having some of the black and white 'tasks' specified as, well, black or white, and then declaring the rest as grey area "use at own risk if in compliance with the spirit of the game/EULA/TOS" should make a lot of this kerfuffle needless, and reduce ban-appeal tickets to only those fringe cases. 

 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am 23.8.2022 um 17:07 schrieb [DE]Dudley:

Hello, Tenno!

With respect to recent conversations, we wanted to bring this previously posted PSA to the forefront:

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist in cheating, there are some cases where software falls into gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.
 

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and/or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

8/23/2022
As of more recently, we’re aware of recent conversations around Overwolf and their apps. The above also applies to those apps (and all other third-party software). We would like to make it clear that our involvement with Overwolf is simply that we’ve had conversations to ensure that Warframe’s EULA and ToS are not being breached in any way.
 

Honestly, I am not very happy with this update. I don't want to use any software, but especially melee is built for attack speed and repeated button pressing and can make playing this game a torture. Thank god we have the AOE meta still, so I am rarely using any melee at this moment.

This game is 9 years old and one of the most frequent requests is that we can define a button that when holding it down instead of tapping, produces repeated button presses to avoid carpal tunnel from using melee in this game. I think this is not a too complex of a request. And honestly when I saw the option in <Options -> Accessibility -> Repeated button presses -> Hold> I thought that we finally have a solution for this age old problem. But it does not work at all in normal gameplay, which is a big disappointment for me at least.

Instead of bringing a solution to the repeated button pressing in melee, you write this update, which is appreciated, because you acknowledge the problem, but shifts the whole problem to the side of your customers instead of taking responsibility for the problem in your game.
I have problems with my wrists, I am no longer the youngest player, so I am basically in dire need of something that helps me with the repeated button presses of melee. I play for 9 years, I am a grandmaster founder and I have bought a lot of Prime Accesses and thus put a lot of money into one of my favorite games. And all of the time when I play with something that helps with button presses, the sword of Damokles in the form of a ban is dangling above my head and this does not feel good.

A good friend of mine whith whom I played for a long time has been banned banned a couple of months ago and this has shown me that there is no security. He is one of the guy that created events in the alliance with prices that he payed from his platinum, he helped newcomers in the game, mentored new players, was always there for advice and help. A shining beacon of an awesome player, players that every company would love to have. After the ban he contacted support, but instead of reviewing his case, support has completely blocked any advance from this side. So yeah, it is even more difficult to prove that you are innocent when noone is listening to you.

There are some different approaches to this problem:

1. You finally find a way that people can use melee in this game without excessive clicking. This is not hard to do and I would at least expect you guys to give us a reason why this has not happened yet.

2. There are other metrics to check if someone is cheating extensively or using macros to get massive gain in the game. Check for his ressources, check for his platinum gain, check his inventory and see if he had significant gainings lately. I am all for banning people who use macros to get massive gain in the game or exploit your good will, but just banning because there might be a hash from a program you don't want is in the memory is very harsh.

3. Start to trust your customers a bit more. If someone is being banned, dont start with a 13 year ban. Ban the person for 6 months while at the same time asking to no longer use program XYZ that lead to the ban.  After this time, check again and again if he is doing it again, then ban for your life.

4. Review the cases more seriously and in person, dont trust an automatic ban if it is being appealed. Look into it and at least tell people what they did wrong.

I think we can all agree that you don't want to ban anyone who is just using a tiny macro that helps with button repeatedly clicking a button by holding the button (If you don't want this, please tell me so I can and will stop playing) to avoid problems with health.
So whatever you do, banning someone who is innocent and just using the wrong program at the wrong time in the background is something that is a very ugly thing to happen. So either give us ingame means to avoid using other programs or help us when we have been falling in the automated ban net.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, as a long time player I don't get this.

 

Some people are making the request that DE includes more interactive UI elements...and they've literally stopped doing that a decade ago.  They stopped the day that they constructed the terminal on the orbiter, and buried 90% of all data behind a terminal interface that is so obtuse that nobody can understand it without its own guide.  That's been "good enough" for a decade.

 

Likewise, button clicking is a pain.  Programmed macros in things like Razr hardware were a solution...and DE even partner with them to give stuff away.  That said, the commentary has been, for years, that using said software could lead to a ban...  Because at its core DE wants a horde shooter, but they also want to be able to be lazy and have stuff that is theoretically capable of going as fast as you can click.  The problem is that this is idiotic...because the second that people got word of macro issues they did the only logical thing and moved their spam buttons to something like mouse wheel up...because an inch of linear movement suddenly become dozens of clicks...and it's undetectable as cheating because remapping keys is a core function of the game.

 

 

What gets my goat though is two things.  There were two things that started all of this up.  Thing one was someone finding out that DE's code control sucks, and they'd embedded the data for the new prime frame early.  They got angry that it wasn't a surprise, and issued a C&D.  Of course, later versions of pre-release data could be chalked up to DE enabling the stuff in chat look...do that was an exceptionally intelligent response.

The second item kicking this off was the riven black market.  The community knows there's price fixing, DE says it's player to player so they know nothing and can therefore do nothing.  A member writes a program to map riven pricing by scraping trade chat...and it's a third party piece of satanic programming.  That forced their hand, and required they entirely retool how rivens worked.

My point in bringing up these things is that after them DE changed nothing about their policies.  They retain the Eric Cartman rights.  Namely, "I'll do what I want."  This is not new.  While I appreciate that we are again looking at fixing DE's shortcomings...have you considered that maybe instead of asking them to clarify something they have an interest in not clarifying, maybe instead you ask them to prioritize giving us the features that can somehow be done by a third party without access to warframe's code at all?

 

 

There's nothing quite like public shame to get DE off their high horses and into fixing mode.  I say this not as criticism...but as a factual observation based on things like toxic moderation, the riven mafia, universal vacuum, Regal aya, and all the other things where DE eventually demonstrated they could do "the impossible," but only once backed into a corner and forced to see that it was not.  It'd be much better if warframe didn't require those third party apps...because it already does everything competently.    Of course, it will be pulling teeth from a ravenous shark based on the history.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

have you considered that maybe instead of asking them to clarify something they have an interest in not clarifying, maybe instead you ask them to prioritize giving us the features that can somehow be done by a third party without access to warframe's code at all?

I was going to post something similar.

A looot of UI stuff needs to be streamlined, with more accessible data. Having smart & contextual notifications (like "hey, you have 2 relics that could help you rank up syndicate X !") would go a long way.

How many times have I shut the game down because I couldn't be bothered with going to this or that place, just to check the requirements for this weapon or that warframe or whatever syndicate.

On the other hand, I've little doubt about buried information being a cheap way to keep players... invested.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding functionality provided by AlecaFrame and WFInfo: I think we all understand that DE has priorities and that building a proper API for 3rd party integration would be a lot of work that'd only make a (relative) minority of the playerbase (me included!) happy. So, while that would be my preferred outcome, it does not seem likely at this point in time: but, of course, alternatives exist. The most obvious solution, as pointed out by others in this thread, would be for DE to make an official statement supporting non-abusive/read-only use of private APIs used by the game and its companion app. Now, I don't think it's ever going to happen and I understand why: while we already pull global information like the World State and Public Export data, allowing 3rd parties access to player data without a proper session/scope system (think OAuth21) in place would be a security nightmare and DE understands this.

Now, with all of that said, I think there is one more solution that I don't see brought up much: what if the game wrote updates to a set of read-only files representing the player's inventory, progress, mission rewards and perhaps even chat? This would solve all of the above problems: it'd be much easier to implement/maintain than a public API and it would ensure that all software using said data must either run on the user's computer (at which point, if it is malicious, you're already screwed) or have the user submit those data dumps themselves.

  • The inventory and progression data dumps would ideally be generated every time the player loads into their orbiter: this would ensure it is up to date after every mission. It could be used to build fully automated mastery trackers and tools to determine what could be sold in the in-game trade chat or on warframe.market.
  • Mission reward data would, of course, be written just after a mission is complete (but ideally before showing the mission completion screen so that applications like AlecaFrame and WFInfo have time to evaluate reward choices from Void Fissures).
  • Chat logs would be flushed after every message.

While this solution would not be nearly as elegant as a proper API, I think we have better chances with this than the alternatives.

1 If you're unfamiliar with OAuth2, it is the system used by platforms like Discord and Twitch to control the access given to 3rd party applications. It essentially makes it so the application can request access to a limited subset of resources: perhaps you've seen Discord integration ask for just your username#discrim as opposed to your email or the guilds you are in. The typical OAuth2 flow also prevents the 3rd party integration from gaining access to the user's credentials by instead providing the integration with a token (essentially a unique string of data) that can be used to act on behalf on the user but also expires (ensuring that the users' data is as safe as possible in the event of a breach) and can be revoked independently of the main login credentials.

Edited by Soykaf
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am 26.8.2022 um 23:20 schrieb eboomer:

You do realize that this literally clarifies nothing at all right?  Like... am I not allowed to have Discord or Spotify running in the background while Warframe is running?  Do I need to close all of my hardware drivers, especially my mouse and keyboard drivers that I use for custom lighting) to not get banned?  Am I allowed to have antivirus software running?  Who in the world doesn't have ANY additional software running besides the bare minimum needed to play a video game?  What planet are you guys living on???  You guys do actually use computers in the real world, right???

actually you are right. because i like listening to audio books at double speed with different players in the background.
or my keyboard/mouse has its own software and complex macros are possible in both programs.
would that be cheating?

I've been playing for many years. but I know that my account can be banned at any time. because according to the contract they need NO REASON for it.

Am 29.8.2022 um 16:50 schrieb Wolfram:

It's not fair to the player-base to re-hash this with the same unhelpful stance.

I use G-Hub for a simple macro to automate high fire rate semi-auto weapons that are really uncomfortable to spam. Is that an issue???

We don't need a list of good/bad software. Just some simple guidelines on the acceptable complexity of a macro would be nice.

the same here. I have a logitech/corsair keyboard.
In my opinion this is reason for a ban, because devs want to frustrate players with pointless clicks. otherwise fire mode would be auto.
in other words you bypass the game mechanics.

and corsair software is much better than logi. here I can program complex ways of playing and camp with it for a long time, at least in sp surv. Even if I add random pauses between events, it's very easy to see in the logs. so it's not worth it!

as mycroft_ says, this is where the devs really need to enlighten us... otherwise this is just a waste of time.

Edited by Venus-Venera
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2022-09-02 at 4:01 AM, Soykaf said:

allowing 3rd parties access to player data without a proper session/scope system (think OAuth21) in place would be a security nightmare and DE understands this.

We wouldn't need a additional session system If 3rd party apps were allowed to read warframe ram just like overwolf does since the gameclient is already logged in. Also for mobile api a library already exists which uses the same auth as the official app does. 

We don't need any additional tech, Just a clear answer how overwolf/alecaframe can break EULA 2.f (and probably 2.h) without breaking EULA.

 

  

12 hours ago, Dapal003 said:

Overwolf can do that already, but it requires using their proprietary api/software

Wouldn't use that if you want to keep your account. Overwolf is known for some scummy behaviour. Wouldn't be surprising if they lied to DE just like they lied to AGS:

On 2022-08-30 at 1:50 PM, GojuSuzi said:

Overwolf suddenly announced that AGS had said no one would be banned for using their minimap, AGS two days later made a statement saying that was a lie but they had agreed to look at the current version to confirm if it does break TOS only. A while later, Overwolf came out saying the current version of the app was confirmed to not break TOS, as did AGS...except AGS said at the same time approval was only as long as it didn't show resource nodes, which the current version did. After some confused back and forth, it turned out that Overwolf had shown AGS a version that literally did not exist - one without resource nodes - and given it the same version number.

 


 

Edited by UmbraAtrox
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a separate note since idk which post you guys read when they are updated, Lavos' STATUS DURATION seems to either be bugged in terms of UI or not working at all cause no matter how much or how little Duration i have on him the Status duration stays at 100%, i understand Lavos isn't everyone favorite but that is a huge part of his kit that could be completely unresponsive and THAT is not okay at all for any frame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Things like G-Hub, Razer Synapse, iCue rarely if ever get considered macros by game companies.  This is because they cannot interact in response to the game and play it for you.  Now things that do DX injection get a bit iffy, For example Destiny 2 warns against even using MSI Afterburner.

For those not in the know MSI Afterburner is probably the primary video card overlocking tool(with EVGA Precision X being second) but also used for system performance monitoring while in game, but it has to hitch the directx processes to inject that overlay. Apparently this makes Bungie twitchy.

*Note item, Any game that says not to use something like Afterburner, just go into its settings and you can tell it not to hitch the game's EXE.  You do not have to exit the program.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

Sounds like I might have to postpone my jump to PC when cross-progression hits, since transparency is obviously too difficult of a concept to relay to your player-base.

Do better, DE. Your dedicated player-base isn't the enemy, so stop trying to portray such animosity towards us.

Uh...wut?

Lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Uh...wut?

Lol

I got a new computer several months ago; I've been downloading all sorts of programs, from games to drivers & more. If anything that I'm running in the background triggers a red flag in their system, I'm not going to be happy. Given how vague they've been regarding this topic, I'd expect more solidarity regarding transparency.

Am I overreacting? I don't plan on running macros in the future. I believe that transparency is a sign of mutual respect, and the lack thereof is a breach of trust.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...