Shards and the widening of the power disparity

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I can't see why it'll turn out any differently than Galvanized mods. The players that use this will see significant increases in power and capability compared to those that don't, and the strategies that can most benefit from these increases will skyrocket in usage even further than less effective strategies. Elective vertical power is a bad thing that should be avoided.

They didn't show the red (offensive) or yellow (utility) options are, but this:

Is already kinda worrisome. You can pick one from the list, and add up to 5 per frame. So I can add +250 energy to any frame? +25 hp/s regen? +750 HP/Shields/Armor? Permanently and with no activation requirements?

And then there are Tauforged shards, which blow the regular ones out of the water:

A permanent +1,125 HP/Armor/Shields, +375 Energy Max, or +37.5 hp/s regen... That's not nothing, and no matter how this is calculated (likely added after mods) there's going to be quite a big difference between someone who uses these and someone who doesn't.

Not to mention, it's just plain unnecessary. We have nowhere in the game to use the power we've got now, and this is just going to make peak player power that much more powerful.

Mesa go brrrrrrrr+++ 
Efficiency mods go rip. Lol 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 49 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Unstar:

To clarify, I'm not talking about people who haven't played the game enough, I'm talking about people who are hitting roadblocks.

I think the key difference between a game like WoW and a game like Warframe is that it's rare for someone in WoW to reach level 20 and say "I have no idea how to get stronger".  That's because until endgame, getting stronger in WoW is as simple as leveling up and periodically replacing your gear with higher level gear for your class.

Whereas in Warframe, just making your numbers bigger isn't good enough.  You also have to know which numbers to make bigger, and in what coordination.  And you can't just make those numbers bigger, you need specific mods and endo to fuel them.  And even if you figure out what numbers to focus on, how do you know what mods you need to raise those numbers?  And then where do you get those mods?  Compared to getting stronger in WoW, it's incredibly unintuitive, and without a sherpa to guide them most players are going to have a rough time, and many will get stuck and either stagnate or quit.  And that's a bummer for everyone.

But yeah, I'm not opposed to players earning their buffs; I was mainly just wondering if throwing them some bones early on might help them overcome the hurdles that many of them face.  Though many in this thread have offered compelling reasons that may not be the best way forward.

If you hit a roadblock, you will find tons of friendly people who will help you. Or you just join a clan/alliance which will surely help you.

But this has nothing to do with low levels. How do you want to keep a game interesting without giving the veterans something to wish for? How many weapons can you design that have the same powerlevel and still excite people? Here is your 582nd weapon, this time 2 shots only do 2/3rd of the normal damage, but the 3rd shot does 5/3rd of the normal damage, isnt that exciting? How many people will come back to the game for such a weapon.

I think for a game to be successful there needs to be a constant stream of powercreep and a constant stream of stonger enemies. At the same time you add some shortcuts for new players here and there and everyone is happy and your game develops nicely.

Or let me phrase differently, since "powercreep" is such a nice buzzword for the majority: What game do you know that is going for years does not have powercreep? Even WoW the most successful MMO of all times has powercreep so hard that they reset the numbers at one point. So it can't be that bad, can it? How many expansions are you willing to play in WoW that you can basically finish with your gear from the very first expansion? You would use your normal gear, run through the expansion and ask for new content a week after release.

So no, powercreep is not that bad, it is a useful tool to keep the game interesting.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

4 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

powercreep

Powercreep in Warframe?? 👩‍🚀🔫👨‍🚀 Always has been. 

[Voltage]

43 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

i guess thats an attempt at forcing co-op but for players like you and I and those that are playing this level content its not a vary good one.  

I absolutely loved how Arbitrations launched, but what they became is boring. Most of that was how it used to be "play until you fail", but over time became "your average mission with a different reward table".

I think DE really needs to examine how often they make rewards purchaseable/tradeable. Archon crystals being tradeable or too easy to acquire elsewhere can render the entire coop weekly encounter pointless for geared players.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)YoungGunn82:

Powercreep in Warframe?? 👩‍🚀🔫👨‍🚀 Always has been. 

Yeah, I said that in my text. Which game is 9 years old and has no powercreep?

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

3 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I absolutely loved how Arbitrations launched, but what they became is boring. Most of that was how it used to be "play until you fail", but over time became "your average mission with a different reward table".

I think DE really needs to examine how often they make rewards purchaseable/tradeable. Archon crystals being tradeable or too easy to acquire elsewhere can render the entire coop weekly encounter pointless for geared players.

I’m with you. 

[Rantear]

20 минут назад, Dunkelheit сказал:

Yeah, I said that in my text. Which game is 9 years old and has no powercreep?

Minecraft
Lmao
Wait, maybe even it does, too lazy to think about it.

[Loza03]

If there's an option to boost ability strength, I'll take that. I love the 'caster' archetype in RPG's, and the 'low-duration Limbo' has always seemed like a great chassis to build one that doesn't feel like it's just 'delete everything' since on that build Stasis is non-viable, so having a damage ability makes sense and completes the fantasy. But a thousand damage after modding has never really been able to tickle that fantasy.

 

Of course, I do have to agree with @(PSN)Unstar  and @PublikDomain objectively, especially since I wouldn't need to be sniffing out every advantage to make it work if the game was balanced properly in the first place. One big disappointment of the news. Granted, Zariman was a bit more intense than other content, so I'll hold out a bit of hope for Archon hunts.

[cute_moth.npc]

27 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Yeah, I said that in my text. Which game is 9 years old and has no powercreep?

Any game where they kept coming out with new content for both players and enemies and scaled both up with each expansion. 

XIV comes to mind?

I like hearing people trash talk XIV so I will use it as an example again ^^

[KIREEK]

Can't wait for it really.

You see, balefire uses ability range and the explosion mod modifier for the total range of the blast, making it potentially the ultimate AOE weapon, however, after the update, with the mod being nerfed, range will decrease slightly, that is until you get the shards that likely give you +range% on your abilities, it will be as if the mod nerf never happened.

No knockdown, no line of sight required, no self damage, no ammo economy issues, just pure AOE fun.
It will be beautifull.

[cute_moth.npc]

I just sort of hope they know what they're doing, some of the power jumps like Galvanized/weapon arcanes honestly made the game a lot worse to me, not better.

Upping the range cap and things like that will just make ultra dull missions where someone's game bypass mode is in full swing even more prevalent otherwise.

Personally I am going to stack all the health and armor I can so that my pet stays alive for a little while longer ;_;

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

"we disabled self revives for Archons".

The challenge-phobic casuals are gonna whine all day until DE caves in and removes it. Just like what DE did with Arbitrations 1.0, Railjack, and Orb Vallis.

 

So, enjoy the challenge while it last.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Dunkelheit said:

How many players do you think have or see no challenge in the game at all? My guess is 1% and lower....  only because some dudes run the game at lvl 9999 does not mean that everyone can. I restrain myself by not abusing shield gating with a dragon key, because it feels like a cheat. And hey, suddenly going SP Void Cascade for an hour is certainly a challenge for me. And even using shield gating is not as easy as everyone thinks.

But let us say you are right and this change is not needed at all: this is even better, you get something to do without changing anything in the game.... And what is so wrong about giving veteran players something to do which in result feels like getting more power when actually you get nothing in return, like you said?

Quite a few people are concerned with the lack of challenge in the game. Rebecca gave an interview a few years back where she says that when people leave it's usually because they've gotten bored, and DE has been adding "challenging" content to the game since. In their latest official survey they say they want to add more difficult and endgame content. That's also what Veilbreaker is about! It's what SP was about, too. And Sorties. And Arbitrations. And AotZ and EotZ! This isn't some new problem, and DE has at said (at least on paper) that they want to address it.

It's not an "even better" situation, either. You know how DE recently added Overguard to make enemies able to survive longer than a nanosecond? How about enemy damage adaptation? Proc resistance? Proc immunity like on Deimos? So the next time DE wants to add something "challenging" to the game, which both they and the majority of players want them to do, what do you think they're going to have to invent to make all this extra power not mess everything up? That's what's wrong with slapping more and more and more power on top of the strongest players: they stop being able to make a game for people to play and have to make all this junk not matter if they want to tell a story. Which is literally what they did for most of TNW, and the Kahl missions in Veilbreaker, and all that we've seen of Duviri. And for what?

[Voltage]

59 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

The challenge-phobic casuals are gonna whine all day until DE caves in and removes it. Just like what DE did with Arbitrations 1.0, Railjack, and Orb Vallis.

So, enjoy the challenge while it last.

If we look at Void Sling, there is certainly a chance DE can be stubborn about their decisions.

[(PSN)Unstar]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Every game has a situation where some Ice boss is weak to fire, lightning weak to water etc. 

Actually I hadn't even considered faction weaknesses, because I hadn't considered that to be difficult or complex.  I'm talking more about how to mod properly in a general sense.  Making every mod on your gun an Elemental vs knowing to diversify your mod categories due to the multiplicative ways damage is calculated is the difference between doing 4x damage and 16x damage.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I think Q&A is turned on automatically. Pretty easy questions can be answered in 3 seconds. 

This is beneficial, but unfortunately questions like "how do i mod well" isn't a quick question, it's something that requires reading an essay or watching a video-essay.

To folks like you and I, that stuff is burned into our brains, forwards and backwards.  But when you're just starting the game, there's not even any indication that you're modding wrong, so you won't even know to ask the question.  You might think you need better mods, so you ask where to get better mods.  Or where to get better weapons.  Or how to play better, because maybe I'm doing low damage because my skill is low?  The idea that there might be some hidden or unintuitive mechanics at work isn't going to be on most people's radar.

[Lutesque]

6 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I can't see why it'll turn out any differently than Galvanized mods. The players that use this will see significant increases in power and capability compared to those that don't, and the strategies that can most benefit from these increases will skyrocket in usage even further than less effective strategies. Elective vertical power is a bad thing that should be avoided.

They didn't show the red (offensive) or yellow (utility) options are, but this:

Is already kinda worrisome. You can pick one from the list, and add up to 5 per frame. So I can add +250 energy to any frame? +25 hp/s regen? +750 HP/Shields/Armor? Permanently and with no activation requirements?

And then there are Tauforged shards, which blow the regular ones out of the water:

A permanent +1,125 HP/Armor/Shields, +375 Energy Max, or +37.5 hp/s regen... That's not nothing, and no matter how this is calculated (likely added after mods) there's going to be quite a big difference between someone who uses these and someone who doesn't.

Not to mention, it's just plain unnecessary. We have nowhere in the game to use the power we've got now, and this is just going to make peak player power that much more powerful.

That's it ? 

So No Increases to My Actual Abilities ? 

Feels like a Nothing Change to me🤔....

 

[Uhkretor]

39 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

But when you're just starting the game, there's not even any indication that you're modding wrong, so you won't even know to ask the question.  You might think you need better mods, so you ask where to get better mods.  Or where to get better weapons.  Or how to play better, because maybe I'm doing low damage because my skill is low?  The idea that there might be some hidden or unintuitive mechanics at work isn't going to be on most people's radar.

... I believe [DE]Steve said "discovering stuff is part of the game" a few months ago... 🤔

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I usually find such systems a bit hard to address. As far as my own preferences and enjoyment and others, but also because I enjoy thinking about the game more objectively and find balancing decisions, ideas around challenge and difficulty, player progression and how it affects the whole rather than the individual (including myself) interesting. Also, in games that often update and change and have a sense of fluidity, often the two can interact, so even if one enjoys their own bubble and has personal preferences, it can pay to be aware of the greater game design and see how it might affect them in the future. 

So with that all being said... I think you made great points, just ehh... I personally consider Warframe an easy game, but that doesn't mean that I didn't struggle a lot over the years with it. I view it as easy, because I always felt, even when I was struggling, I was learning and understanding the game better, and ensuring future attempts would be successful and easier. Interestingly... knowledge and understanding can also help myself provide a challenge for myself and allow me to increase challenge... Some would call this a player limiting themselves, etc for myself its usually about experimenting, diversity and enjoying a certain play style. The effect is the same though essentially though. I want to clarify though, because I am excited for the Archon Sorties and that Steel Path is getting Lith Relics... and I am not personally in agreement with the idea that "Warframe has zero challenge at all" but neither am I the idea that "people who want more difficulty and challenge should just take off all their Mods and use the Stug", I think they are both too extreme, and don't sincerely address some players issues/desires. 

I bring up all this, for context, because I am not really sure a system like this would actually benefit new players that much (at least in my perception and past experiences, acknowledging I am no longer a new player nor do my own experiences reflect others experiences). I think getting new and better mods, learning how mods work, getting better and new guns... getting Arcanes, that already works for newer players. There is a power disparity, but some of that can be positive, I personally remember it being positive. It was fun and exciting building power, acquiring knowledge and arsenal. Experience too. Many people often underestimate experience and subconscious types of knowledge that lead us to being better and more skilled just by virtue of playing (essentially practicing and building up muscle memory, map lay out, enemy AI behaviour etc)

This system seems end game specific, which I like. A. Given how initially rare the shards are, you'd have to have a good knowledge of all the Warframes to have the knowledge to know which are your favs and worth the investment (and then the resources to cancel out removing the shard to use elsewhere). B. End game players already do have a lot of power... but also usually knowledge too. Can better min max such attributes. Some of my Warframes with more shields, will benefit with health regen over higher health in general, especially if they have Rolling Guard. In combo with shield gating, having health topped up is nicer... but... Nidus on the other hand, more heath can be great in assisting with Adaptation and Parasitic Link. C. In some ways I agree with the sentiment that end game players don't need the extra power... but eh, it can be nice. I know my Nidus can do an Infested Steel Path Survival for 2 hours, but it can be a nice incentive to have the means to make that more comfy experience. So I think the bonuses can matter, it just depends on how you approach the game and your playstyles/what you find enjoyment in. 

Remembering what I was like as a new player or even whilst I was working my way through it, I probably wouldn't have appreciated or been able to really utilise the system. A bit like Rivens and Invigorations. I probably would have liked them, but even back then, probably would have preferred them as how DE are actually using them in practice. Again though... just my own experiences and preferences. 

[(PSN)Unstar]

17 hours ago, Rantear said:

17 hours ago, Voltage said:

I absolutely love how Rebecca jumped right into "we disabled self revives for Archons".

Any idea what that even means?
It does say that Last Gasp still works there, but nerfed. But outside of that I know only of Inaros' and Sevagoth's self-revives, and it's really weird to single those two out, considering first one doesn't even work after like level 20.

I really hope it isn't like Arbitrations.
But then that would help newbies find someone to get carried, if vets would also need someone to revive them in case mission goes south.

Based on the context you've provided, my best guess is that "self-revive" means the ability to pick yourself back up again at the cost of affinity after your bleed-out ends.  So probably something similar to Arbitrations.

 

Thanks again to everyone posting their thoughts and engaging in good faith dialogue, I wanted to hear different perspectives and I've been able to read more than I had anticipated, which is a genuine pleasure.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb PublikDomain:

Quite a few people are concerned with the lack of challenge in the game. Rebecca gave an interview a few years back where she says that when people leave it's usually because they've gotten bored, and DE has been adding "challenging" content to the game since. In their latest official survey they say they want to add more difficult and endgame content. That's also what Veilbreaker is about! It's what SP was about, too. And Sorties. And Arbitrations. And AotZ and EotZ! This isn't some new problem, and DE has at said (at least on paper) that they want to address it.

It's not an "even better" situation, either. You know how DE recently added Overguard to make enemies able to survive longer than a nanosecond? How about enemy damage adaptation? Proc resistance? Proc immunity like on Deimos? So the next time DE wants to add something "challenging" to the game, which both they and the majority of players want them to do, what do you think they're going to have to invent to make all this extra power not mess everything up? That's what's wrong with slapping more and more and more power on top of the strongest players: they stop being able to make a game for people to play and have to make all this junk not matter if they want to tell a story. Which is literally what they did for most of TNW, and the Kahl missions in Veilbreaker, and all that we've seen of Duviri. And for what?

The problem of Warframe is not the lack of challenge, it is the massive abuse of exploits like Dragon Key for shield gating that make it nigh impossible to put up a challenge. Play without Dragon Key and tell me it is easy.

And wile speaking about challenge, you know well that the slightest addition of "challenge" to the game leads to a S#&$storm in the forums. Oh noes, I am MR 6 and I cannot do the latest endgame content, neeeeeeeeeeerf.

[PublikDomain]

15 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

The problem of Warframe is not the lack of challenge, it is the massive abuse of exploits like Dragon Key for shield gating that make it nigh impossible to put up a challenge. Play without Dragon Key and tell me it is easy.

And wile speaking about challenge, you know well that the slightest addition of "challenge" to the game leads to a S#&$storm in the forums. Oh noes, I am MR 6 and I cannot do the latest endgame content, neeeeeeeeeeerf.

So the problem isn't the lack of challenge, it's the mechanics that create a lack of challenge...? I mean yeah, that's why there's such a lack of challenge. The constant addition or ignoring of mechanics that reduce the game's challenge - like unfixed abuse of shield-gating, galvanized mods, and these new shards - do indeed make the game easy. Who'd have guessed?

And I'm well aware that selfish players who only want their own personal preferences to be catered to will be upset about other players enjoying other types of content. These people suck and I don't care if they throw a fit. Let em.

[Skaleek]

I'll just horde my lesser shards and only equip tauforged... Hold on- did they say these are available in cash shop?

[MekaDovah]

On 2022-08-26 at 5:43 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

Just to be clear that wasn't my intention; I don't think that this is a competition in any way.  Rather, I think that the game of Warframe becomes better when everyone is playing the same game, instead of two camps of people who think they're playing very different games.  The closer those two camps get, the better shape the game is in.

Also, I'm enjoying what everyone is writing in response, some very thoughtful and compelling takes; I appreciate everyone sharing them.

Certainly would help balancing the game if everyone was on the same page.