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half aoe weapons, how will they be addressed?


(XBOX)Sizlefingers

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20 minutes ago, (XBOX)Sizlefingers said:

what are you guys' thoughts?

I'm Pretty Sure that if you Shoot Someone with The Chakkhur in the Head right Now.... The AoE won't Deal Headshot Damage anyway....

Just like Pablo Said.... The Difference Is going to be About 4 - 10%....

The Only Weapons that will be Greatly Affect By This are the Kuva Bramma and Glaives as they are the only Weapons that you can Position in such away that the Explosion Detonated properly on Enemy's Heads.

 

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Played with the Kuva Chakkurr I think it will be fine

What I am more worried about are the AOE weapons that don't have an ammo pool like Sporelacer with Pax Charge and Bubonico since the main goal of the changes was to have ammo play a vital role but that won't be an issue with guns that don't have an inherent ammo pool

I don't want to start investing a kitgun which is notorious for its heavy investment needed to make it work and then have the changes hamper it even more.

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20 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

Played with the Kuva Chakkurr I think it will be fine

What I am more worried about are the AOE weapons that don't have an ammo pool like Sporelacer with Pax Charge and Bubonico since the main goal of the changes was to have ammo play a vital role but that won't be an issue with guns that don't have an inherent ammo pool

I don't want to start investing a kitgun which is notorious for its heavy investment needed to make it work and then have the changes hamper it even more.

Don't worry, they nerfed self charging weapons last year and Pax Charge already sucks ^^;

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Doesn't seem like Chakkhur will be affected too much, except that Firestorm builds will be less common.  As far as the radial portion not being able to hit heads anymore goes, I think it's very unreliable for this damage to hit headshots already, even on clustered enemies, and even on direct hits. 

Maybe it'll be affected a bit by the ammo changes?  I still don't have a clear idea how this will work.  It should be a positive with sniper ammo being consolidated into primary ammo, but they're somehow expecting it to be a small nerf to the big sniper ammo AoE weapons?  This probably has something to do with the new ammo pickup stat that was shown in the Arsenal.

The new headshot multiplier will be fun with it.  According to my calculations, most enemies will be approximately 50% even more dead when they have the misfortune of getting hit in the head by this thing.

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2 hours ago, XHADgaming said:

Played with the Kuva Chakkurr I think it will be fine

What I am more worried about are the AOE weapons that don't have an ammo pool like Sporelacer with Pax Charge and Bubonico since the main goal of the changes was to have ammo play a vital role but that won't be an issue with guns that don't have an inherent ammo pool

I don't want to start investing a kitgun which is notorious for its heavy investment needed to make it work and then have the changes hamper it even more.

Even without Pax Charge Sporelacer is in a very odd position for the changes since the ammo pool for the sporelacer is far far bigger than that of launcher weapons overall. Just as the changes doesnt solve anything regarding chaning beam weapons like Tenet Cycron or Kuva Nukor, that kill very effectively as AoE weapon, but have either battery mechanics or a large conventional pistol ammo economy.

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they really should make these OP AoE weapons into a new "Launcher" class. Then they can nerf the ammo drops (and nerf or remove ammo mutation mods for them) whilst keeping the ammo system for other weapons that actually need them. There are bow-only mode for example, and most launchers are classed as assult rifle (the ogris for example is, I've done rifle-only sorties with it)

I remember running out of ammo a lot on a really fun weapon (I think it was the dex furis but might be thinking of the akstiletto) So that will be hit by the ammo change significantly. Similarly, the Acceltra and Akaris will be almost worthless. The Phantasma and catabolyst, 12 fire rate but an ammo pool that will disappear very quickly. the Knell will be empty almost all the time, my old favourite the Athodai used to run out of ammo for me in the old days already. The akbolto, fire rate of 10, ammo pool 210, and then there's things like the twin vipers. brrr-click.

 

That said, its an easy fix: buff the ammo pools for those weapons with high fire rates!

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)Sizlefingers:

For example: the kuva chakkhur is a high crit rifle that benefits greatly from headshots, but it has an aoe. will it be treated as secondary and be unaffected by the removal of aoe headshots or will it disable a large chunk of potential damage? what are you guys' thoughts?

they want to make aoe weapons completely miserable. even trash guns like lenz are said to be super bad. kuva chakkhur is no exception.
It's not just about no headshots, but about much less range and buggy "line of sight" mechanics. so you will run out of ammo very quickly and you can hardly kill anything.

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10 hours ago, (XBOX)Sizlefingers said:

For example: the kuva chakkhur is a high crit rifle that benefits greatly from headshots, but it has an aoe. will it be treated as secondary and be unaffected by the removal of aoe headshots or will it disable a large chunk of potential damage? what are you guys' thoughts?

Most (all?) spherical AoE weapons have two damage instances: the actual projectile hit itself, and the AoE damage around it. Only the AoE damage instance will have it's headshot removed, the projectile damage instance will still proc a headshot (and the headshot multiplier is getting buffed). So for Chakkurr, you'll still headshot fine, since the projectile damage instance will continue to headshot (now with a buffed multiplier).

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13 минут назад, p_silveira сказал:

Most (all?) spherical AoE weapons have two damage instances: the actual projectile hit itself, and the AoE damage around it. Only the AoE damage instance will have it's headshot removed, the projectile damage instance will still proc a headshot (and the headshot multiplier is getting buffed). So for Chakkurr, you'll still headshot fine, since the projectile damage instance will continue to headshot (now with a buffed multiplier).

Main problem comes from damage types and damage ratio.
Chakkhurr's direct shot damage is pure Impact, even with the higher multiplier and more raw damage on direct hit it'll still end up being nerf.
IIRC, Chakkhurr having higher damage on direct hit is actually an outlier, since usually it's the other way around. So for alot of weapons this change might end up being a huge undeserved nerf.

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2 hours ago, Rantear said:

Chakkhurr's direct shot damage is pure Impact, even with the higher multiplier and more raw damage on direct hit it'll still end up being nerf.

The base damage is Impact (with a guaranteed impact proc, great for Internal Bleeding builds) + the native weapon elemental damage. I'm not sure of the math, but given the higher headshot multiplier, it is probably not a big nerf (on Chakkurr specifically). 

2 hours ago, Rantear said:

IIRC, Chakkhurr having higher damage on direct hit is actually an outlier, since usually it's the other way around.

I also took the time to take a look at some more "precise" AoE weapons (Kuva Seer, Tenet Spirex, Opticor Vandal, Stahlta, Ambassador, Battacor, Zhuge Prime, Sepulcrum) and it's actually the other way around: most of them have the direct hit with a higher base damage than the AoE. Of this list, only Stahlta and Ambassador have higher damage on the AoE than on the direct hit. 
** I didn't bother looking the "imprecise" AoE weapons because they are, well, imprecise. You can hit headshots with a Kuva Tonkor, but it's gonna be way more difficult to repeat that consistently than with a Chakkurr.
So, in short, for most of the "precision AoE" weapon builds, it's not going to be too big of a nerf. I'm not really looking forward to do the equations and look the exact numbers though, so if you are up for it, please be my guest.

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb CephalonCarnage:

they really should make these OP AoE weapons into a new "Launcher" class. Then they can nerf the ammo drops (and nerf or remove ammo mutation mods for them) whilst keeping the ammo system for other weapons that actually need them. There are bow-only mode for example, and most launchers are classed as assult rifle (the ogris for example is, I've done rifle-only sorties with it)

I remember running out of ammo a lot on a really fun weapon (I think it was the dex furis but might be thinking of the akstiletto) So that will be hit by the ammo change significantly. Similarly, the Acceltra and Akaris will be almost worthless. The Phantasma and catabolyst, 12 fire rate but an ammo pool that will disappear very quickly. the Knell will be empty almost all the time, my old favourite the Athodai used to run out of ammo for me in the old days already. The akbolto, fire rate of 10, ammo pool 210, and then there's things like the twin vipers. brrr-click.

 

That said, its an easy fix: buff the ammo pools for those weapons with high fire rates!

Yeah the Vipers run dry after around 8 to 10 enemies ;-) This whole change might be a good time to look at the ammo pools in general, because certain shotguns and pistols are currently almost unplayable without Prime Ammo mutation due to their low max ammo and firerate (e.g. Astilla, Twin Kohmak, Athodai, etc.).

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8 часов назад, p_silveira сказал:

+ the native weapon elemental damage

Oh, yeah, forgot about that, but I think elemental bonus also applies to the AoE.

Цитата

I'm not sure of the math

There's an issue that certain elements deal 75% damage more or 75% damage less, depending on who you're fighting with. If damage destribution favored more desirable elements in the AoE component, then 50% buff to the headshot damage will not outweigh the nerf.
It also so happens that it mainly applies to non-physical damage types, which I assume would be more prevalent on the AoE components.
 

Цитата

Kuva Seer, Tenet Spirex, Opticor Vandal, Stahlta, Ambassador, Battacor, Zhuge Prime, Sepulcrum

I appreciate that you took time to actually look for such weapons, as I've felt quite lost as to which weapons to look at.
But I wouldn't put Stahlta and Ambassador into this category, while they're precise weapons, they have AoE comparable to Kuva Zarr, and don't really rely on headshots for majority of their damage, since they can hit alot more enemies.

Only weapon that I could remember, where it's definetly going to be a big nerf is Laetum - its direct damage is pure Impact, and it has very small AoE that is 3 times more pure radiation damage.
Impact is pretty much neutral against anything that matters, while radiation gives a hefty bonus against majority of Grineer soldiers.

OH and also Tombfinger, wiki doesn't list its damage, but its quickshot tiny AoE is almost exactly half of the damage, and is actually pure elemental, as opposed to direct hit being split into 3 damage types. That's a big potential nerf as well.

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22 hours ago, (XBOX)Sizlefingers said:

For example: the kuva chakkhur is a high crit rifle that benefits greatly from headshots, but it has an aoe. will it be treated as secondary and be unaffected by the removal of aoe headshots or will it disable a large chunk of potential damage? what are you guys' thoughts?

they already adressed that in the stream,  The initial shot still gets the headshot bonus its only the radial damage from that shot that doesnt gain benifit from headshot

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)Kuhl MC:

Yeah the Vipers run dry after around 8 to 10 enemies ;-) This whole change might be a good time to look at the ammo pools in general, because certain shotguns and pistols are currently almost unplayable without Prime Ammo mutation due to their low max ammo and firerate (e.g. Astilla, Twin Kohmak, Athodai, etc.).

Yes. normal missions might be playable if you switch to mele often. but even with a maxed weapon sp is barely playable.
there are far too many weapons out there that are just mastery fodder.
and there was an interview where devs said they don't care about old content or balance. because it doesn't make any money. hence...

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