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The Growing Power Creep of Warframe


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10 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I just want to say, though it's a little aside:

We have the modding system for stat increases, we have mechanically distinct weapons, WTF is happening that we end up with increasingly powerful distinct weapons on the regular?

DE has all but stated they want equipment to find fair use, not having one thing dominating the landscape or other things end up forgotten. Then why do we keep getting new, more powerful weapons on the regular instead of mods? Of course people are going to go toward the more powerful weapons and forget the weaker ones, they're literally more powerful.

I'm sure you could come up with a million reasons for why it happens, lol. One I've seen here and there is that DE's different teams have different visions and don't communicate, so one team does something while another team undermines it. From how DE releases content that feels the most reasonable explanation. While I haven't looked at DE's glassdoor reviews in some years, last I checked there were a lot of former employees talking about a lack of leadership and direction which does seem to line up with how random their updates and decisions can be. Like how they're going to be tamping down AoE powercreep in the same update they're also expanding Warframe powercreep. Or like how they add a system like Rivens that are on paper supposed to help underperforming weapons and level the playing field while also adding things like Kuva and Tenet weapons that blow everything else out of the water. I'm hoping that under Rebecca and Pablo they can wrangle things into order, but while I'm very optimistic that they can I'm very pessimistic that they actually will.

And if we're talking asides, there's vertical power/progression and then there's horizontal power/progression. Vertical is when your number goes up, horizontal is when your options go up. Modding is a great system for handling vertical power/progression, because it works equally on all items. +265% damage is going to give the same multiplier to power on everything. Weapon variation is a great system for horizontal power/progression, because more weapons means more to play with. But weapon variation is an absolutely abysmal system for vertical power/progression, because having a dozen guns that are so much better than hundreds of others is no different from only having a dozen guns. Weapon variation used to expand vertical power/progression ends up reducing horizontal power/progression, which means less game for all of us to play. Isn't that a bad thing? Undoing that means having more guns that are good, more frames that are good, more pets that are good, etc. And yet this is somehow a very prickly topic that sees a great deal of resistance. It should be a no-brainer.

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Before you debate balance, you have to have a goal, a standard, a concept, a baseline.

In warframe, they deliberately evaded that debate per design, exactly so you couldn't dictate anything, if something is working or not. That's not for you to decide.

It's basically what the developers are in the mood for, at the time. Or what they need to nerf to sell similar items.

 

I guess you must have googled shield gating, but there are any number of things that make you practically immortal.

Which again, no one has said it isn't supposed to be like that, or that it is. No one has said anything.

Until the developers decide on a goal post, there is no point naming anything any thing, it is meaningless.

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2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

The problem with missions like the Zariman is that they're future-leaning, but a lot of things we do on the regular are past-leaning. For example, I have pretty much everything I want from the Zariman. What I don't have are prime parts for ducats and profile completion. The sort of "evergreen" tasks. That leaves me with little reason to go back to the Zariman, and to stay in the same old missions I've always done. 

I think it's sad that it's on an island.

I would really like the Zariman missions to be available as Void Fissure and Arbitrations missions. It's probably not done because it's right at the end of the star chart and they really like accessibility but these missions are honestly much more evolved than dusty old defense with the same shield lancers we have been seeing forever

Content creep can include new enemies and encounters but also be evergreen, if they want it to be!

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34 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I think it's sad that it's on an island.

I would really like the Zariman missions to be available as Void Fissure and Arbitrations missions. It's probably not done because it's right at the end of the star chart and they really like accessibility but these missions are honestly much more evolved than dusty old defense with the same shield lancers we have been seeing forever

Content creep can include new enemies and encounters but also be evergreen, if they want it to be!

Honestly I'm just amazed that there aren't conventional missions on the Zariman alongside the new ones. 

They did it right with Kuva Fortress. Make sure at least one of each core mission type is available then spin a little twist to make them interesting.

Zariman is a major facepalm IMO. The story was the worst so far and the game modes are, for the most part, not that fun. They're not TERRIBLE but it would have been nice to have some regular missions available to us so they could be used for arbitrations and void fissures. 

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1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

Honestly I'm just amazed that there aren't conventional missions on the Zariman alongside the new ones. 

They did it right with Kuva Fortress. Make sure at least one of each core mission type is available then spin a little twist to make them interesting.

Zariman is a major facepalm IMO. The story was the worst so far and the game modes are, for the most part, not that fun. They're not TERRIBLE but it would have been nice to have some regular missions available to us so they could be used for arbitrations and void fissures. 

Oh.. I sort of like Void Flood and Cascade more than some older mission types, it is maybe just a personal preference thing though?

There's literally nothing redeeming about Void Armageddon though, it's basically endless mobile defense ><

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On 2022-08-30 at 8:47 PM, cute_moth.npc said:

and very rarely ever offer level appropriate encounters for what we are actually able to do.

I felt that deep in my soul. I still want things to feel meaningful to grind towards but this as well

Theyre trying though now with the angels new mission types and archons, but its still kind of missing the mark. We'll see in time though

_______

On 2022-08-30 at 9:03 PM, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

are going to be like mods/arcanes

I think what hes getting at is unlike a mediocre mod that you can ignore, these can be directly applied to the warframe in addition to everything that you already have equipped. Creating potential to invalidate things like primed flow that you may just be using to have energy to  use abilities

________

23 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

This.

Power increases come in two flavours. The creepy kind, which makes previous investments worthless, and the growing kind, where player power overall just gets better. So, for example, shield gating is of the growing kind. Archon shards, too. The Helminth system gets a bit more on the creepy kind with Valkyr and a few others, though that's a bit debatable. Weapon arcanes are a bit closer to the creepy kind as they can make some weapons better than some melee weapons. But that's not super universal.

It's the creepy kind that is the bad one. Power growth isn't necessarily bad, if it's just part of the intended progression. What's missing, of course, is a framework for that progression. Right now, our best avenue is pushing Steel Path endurance. DE has stated the game isn't balanced for that and, moreover, we aren't exactly full of reasons to go for those endurance runs. Never really have been and DE hasn't been interested in it either.

That's where I would say DE needs a more algorithmic approach. Take Steel Path, for example: it's, what, a 250% health, shield, and armour boost? With some boosts to resource and mod drops? Cycle it: SP+, which adds 100 to all the modifiers, from enemy level to armour to resources and mods, available once you clear all Steel Path nodes. Then SP++, adding another 100 once you clear all SP+ nodes. And another 100. And so on and so forth forever. Tada, you have a framework - a rudimentary one, but one nevertheless - that can accommodate pretty much any damage value, all without manual developer intervention. Now your challenge is to go as far into Steel Path modes as possible, pushing it higher and higher.

100% 👏👏👏

Its a decent way to stretch content too, which is why DE creates time gates and those 2% drop chance items. Instead of waiting to play, your time is more spent with feeling of growth, aquiring crystals or whatever to make your favorite frames do more cool things. My only thing is as with increasing power, its good to put some actual content up there too, as thats what really makes it all feel satisfying.

For example you go from fighting a baby dragon with a unmaxed serration mod, regular pressure point on your melee, just an overall baby warframe player build

To fighting a mythical adult dragon. You got tons of ne frames to try out and the enemy has new abilitoes for you to work around and a stronger defense for you to use your warframe knowledge and chew through that defene

From baby quest like "find the baby kubrow for a new pet", to epic quest like "hunt down Cerberus and free your ai friend from being used as a slave for eternity to power Cerberus's abilities. A 3 headed dog standing 100 feet high." Rewards, every 1 or 2 minutes, you can call in this powerful beast for 30 seconds to destroy your foes (with a height reduction perhaps lol)

Feel good

One more thing tho

23 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

SP+

Before this, i think it would be best to stick to a form of temporary alert system if DE wants the game to remain a sort of co-op game. I say this because if you go up to the normal starchart and try hitting a random mission that has no events or alerts tied to it, most of the time you will find yourself alone, especially the further you get from earth, However; when theres an alert, even when its not a good one, youll seem to always find a full squad, as theres less missions for people to go to get rewards.

So something to crunch the amount of places one can recieve such rewards may be nice to keep the game feeling like coop,

OR

Something that im growing more fond of, just make warframe more solo based. Balance the game around just 1 player and ai squad, while just allowing multiplayer for fun and additional help

Games like Watch Dogs and Saints Row sort of use this method of playstyle, and i think its one that Warframe has been slowly turning into. Relying on teammates can be a PAIN in the behind. They can take all your kills, make enemies invulnerable or ragdoll them all over the place, stun lock enemies from far away, just cause mayhem to the current playstyle you are trying to enjoy.

Ai squads, their fun is debateable, but i love them for the additional flavours they can add to combat. They can drop heals, ammo, pressure certain enemies, etc, all the while being fully customizeable to look so cool. If they die, no harm in giving them unlimited revives on a sort of cooldown timer. Unlike people, these bots do all they can to serve you!

I digress, its just another route to make less worried about co-op that can be way more stress inducing than solo play.

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On 2022-08-30 at 5:36 PM, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

I feel like the start of this power creep will have to start with shield-gating. This is one of the best survivability tool in the game as it completely negate damage. There is some drawback as this survivability is reliant on the energy cost of your ability so more efficiency can be detrimental as you sometimes can't regain all your shields with one cast and less efficiency make it hard to sustain energy. Also, frames with huge shield pools are at a disadvantage as they have to rely more on the expensive abilities, have run blind rage, or have to waste more mod slots for augur mods so they can get all their shields back for full shield-gating 

The second start of power creep will have to be helminth. Some Warframes' best ability was put into helminth such as Warcry, Roar, Eclipse, and Gloom. There is more good abilities but these are some of the go to picks. With gloom and warcry can be on other frames that have more better abilities, sevagoth and valkyr are use less. 

The third would have to be weapon arcanes with AoE guns. This is getting nerf but I personally do not think the first round of nerf going to affect much. If they really want to go the ammo route I feel like AoE should use heavy ammo or have their own ammo type that is a lower chance of dropping over rifle and pistol ammo. Also, other option can be AoE weapons should not be able to use ammo mutation.  

With the upcoming nerf to AoE we will also be getting a change to armor stripping abilities making almost every weapon viable now. Being able to have access to Pillage or Terrify on every frame there will be almost no excuse for a player to complain an enemy is too bulky. 

I personally would disagree that Archon Crystal going be even more power creep because 1 Archon Crystal buff is barely or not even close to replace an Arcane or mod. Pablo even state that you will need 5 amber archon crystal (discounting the tauforged one) to almost be a replacement for Arcane energize. At most you will only be able to replace 2 mods/arcanes. For some frames it may be possible to do 3 but that is a slim chance and I can't think of one on top of my head. In my opinion this is the most balanced new system we have got these past years and it also the most interesting on what people will or could do for each frame.

The conversation about power creep is tricky with this game. For starters, the entire discussion can change instantly if self-stagger and the upcoming ammo changes are introduced. Limiting Wukong's clone and minimizing aoe weapon ammo means that newer players may consider other warframe options while vets would soon have to manage the ammo restores and their cooldowns. Without the constant aoe ammo, I wouldn't be surprised if "power creep" becomes "we need a buff". Remember, single target weapons were "too weak" just a few months ago. Weird community.

It also doesn't help that this game is heavily, HEAVILY spoiled by content creators who rush to share the secrets of the game, offer how-to guides and create/promote the metas. This eliminates the experience of discovery, trial & error, and growth and it's easy to spot the players who blindly follow those creators and practically ruin their own gaming experience. Grind Hard Squad is particularly bad. He is so focused on spoiling the game, I literally had to block his content from showing on my YouTube pages just so I can confidently go into the next update with just the basic info from DE. Weird community.

Part of the solution, I think, is well underway with what DE is planning. The other side of the fix is either ignoring content creators or ignoring content creators. It's simply no fun being told what's the best gear and where to walk, run, jump and shoot. Why play a game if all we're doing is cheating?

 

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On 2022-08-30 at 8:56 PM, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

I do agree with you that enemies should have new stuff but the problem will be skilled players will find a way to bypass it or less skilled players will complain that the new enemies are too difficult. Most of the players are part of the less skilled range that is why the Angel of Zariman quest was nerf to be easier because a lot of people apparently complain it was too difficult. The reason Warframe progress for difficulty is difficult is of the wide range of skills in their player base.

One would expect player skills to improve as we spend more time in the game, which commonly  translates into experience (knowledge related skills) and practice (mechanical skill), yet for some reason this doesn't seem to happen with warframe players.

I thinl it has to do with players being powerful to the point of nuking enemies without paying any attention to the game, our ability to remove most if not all of the resource management aspect from the game since it allows us to enable "infinite HP/Shields/Energy/Ammo" very easily.

After all, who needs to *gasp* aim (in a shooter!) when we can just shoot kuva zarr at our feet and call it a day;  why would anyone bother with using parkour to position strategically to take down enemies while reducing their chances to hit us when we have access to 100% damage reduction setups that also make modding for EHP pointless.

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1 hour ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Oh.. I sort of like Void Flood and Cascade more than some older mission types, it is maybe just a personal preference thing though?

There's literally nothing redeeming about Void Armageddon though, it's basically endless mobile defense ><

They're certainly playable but we learn the core mission types for the whole of the star chart. It is kind of lame that we don't continue playing these missions on new tilesets. I would love to play survival on the Zariman tileset with rotating corpus/grineer enemies and random thrax/angels... 

 

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6 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

They're certainly playable but we learn the core mission types for the whole of the star chart. It is kind of lame that we don't continue playing these missions on new tilesets. I would love to play survival on the Zariman tileset with rotating corpus/grineer enemies and random thrax/angels... 

 

I think I would like both personally? Doing the classic mission types in Zariman but on evergreen modes would also be good, the new enemies and the atmosphere the art team put in alone are worth it ^^

Wait I know.. Use the Zariman hub as a defense mode?

We have to defend.. *notes time*..

Quinn. From stuff. Also from the players because this map has like 16 laser buttons in it you can press and every single one of them one shots Quinn.

...I'd still play it -_-

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2 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I think I would like both personally? Doing the classic mission types in Zariman but on evergreen modes would also be good, the new enemies and the atmosphere the art team put in alone are worth it ^^

Yeah that's what I'm saying.

There isn't anything wrong with one-off mission types but they should be found amidst the ones we're familiar with. The extermination mission is the best node in Zariman IMO (And I don't much care for extermination).

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Before this, i think it would be best to stick to a form of temporary alert system if DE wants the game to remain a sort of co-op game. I say this because if you go up to the normal starchart and try hitting a random mission that has no events or alerts tied to it, most of the time you will find yourself alone, especially the further you get from earth, However; when theres an alert, even when its not a good one, youll seem to always find a full squad, as theres less missions for people to go to get rewards.

Bringing back the old alert system? I can't say I'm a huge fan, and DE had their reasons to dunk on it. But I could see a revival-of-sorts as a Nightwave task. E.g., complete x node. Nightwave is pretty modular like that.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Something that im growing more fond of, just make warframe more solo based. Balance the game around just 1 player and ai squad, while just allowing multiplayer for fun and additional help

With how some people talk about AoE. we might already be there.

Real talk, though, it does feel like it's pretty much at this point, implicitly. You can solo missions with little to no problem. Content scales up with a team, sure, but that just means running with a team is almost entirely an option. And many Warframes are built to be self-sustaining. Trinity is, perhaps, the most "team-oriented" Warframe, and even she can be a tanky Warframe when going solo. Not to mention newer quests are explicitly solo experiences.

I won't say no to being able to bring an AI squad, though. Let me mod up a team of Warframes and you'll see my Trinity usage skyrocket.

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2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

But I could see a revival-of-sorts as a Nightwave task. E.g., complete x node. Nightwave is pretty modular like that.

Thats what i mean, anything that makes it work

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

With how some people talk about AoE. we might already be there.

Real talk, though, it does feel like it's pretty much at this point, implicitly. You can solo missions with little to no problem. Content scales up with a team, sure, but that just means running with a team is almost entirely an option. And many Warframes are built to be self-sustaining. Trinity is, perhaps, the most "team-oriented" Warframe, and even she can be a tanky Warframe when going solo. Not to mention newer quests are explicitly solo experiences.

I won't say no to being able to bring an AI squad, though. Let me mod up a team of Warframes and you'll see my Trinity usage skyrocket.

Right!

Quest is a really good example of how solo play lets you get the experience you want from the game, without some super op player blitzing through everything, 1 shot your boss, etc etc

And if you really want to play with someone, invite friends or play an alert thats just designed for being completed quickly or whatever with great rewards and such. People will be grouped there without you having to recruit. The alerts can be special like sortie with sniper only, or be a mixed mode where 1 player is locked to sniper only and has to use mag while another player has to use shotguns only and has to use rhino.

Lotta fun to be had that keeps you from undesireably interfering with other players experiences, or leading to nerfs like old-old ember (Rip)

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4 horas atrás, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 disse:

A conversa sobre o poder é complicada com este jogo. Para começar, toda a discussão pode mudar instantaneamente se o auto-escalonado e as próximas alterações de munição forem introduzidas. Limitar o clone de Wukong e minimizar munição de armas aoe significa que os jogadores mais novos podem considerar outras opções de warframe, enquanto os veterinários logo teriam que gerenciar as restaurações de munição e seus resfriamentos. Sem a munição constante, eu não ficaria surpreso se "power creep" se tornasse "precisamos de um buff". Lembre-se, as armas de um único alvo eram "muito fracas" apenas alguns meses atrás. Comunidade estranha.

Também não ajuda que este jogo seja fortemente mimado por criadores de conteúdo que correm para compartilhar os segredos do jogo, oferecer guias de como fazer e criar/promover as metas. Isso elimina a experiência de descoberta, tentativa e erro e crescimento e é fácil identificar os jogadores que seguem cegamente esses criadores e praticamente arruinam sua própria experiência de jogo. Grind Hard Squad é particularmente ruim. Ele está tão focado em estragar o jogo, que eu literalmente tive que bloquear seu conteúdo de aparecer nas minhas páginas do YouTube apenas para que eu possa entrar confiantemente na próxima atualização com apenas as informações básicas do DE. Comunidade estranha.

Parte da solução, eu acho, está bem encaminhada com o que a DE está planejando. O outro lado da correção é ignorar criadores de conteúdo ou ignorar criadores de conteúdo. Não é divertido saber qual é o melhor equipamento e onde andar, correr, pular e atirar. Por que jogar um jogo se tudo o que estamos fazendo é trapacear?

 

I don't think knowing an efficient way to play is cheating, for God's sake.

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Power has been out of control for years. Why does someone make a thread about it every day? We were gods back in 2015, why does it matter that we are now? Sorry, did your nuke go from 100 kilotons to 101? Does it matter after a certain point? Why do you all think power creep is a problem, we're already so far passed the line. You're effectively just complaining about the games core design. Ain't gonna change; keep making threads.

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3 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Power has been out of control for years. Why does someone make a thread about it every day? We were gods back in 2015, why does it matter that we are now? Sorry, did your nuke go from 100 kilotons to 101? Does it matter after a certain point? Why do you all think power creep is a problem, we're already so far passed the line. You're effectively just complaining about the games core design. Ain't gonna change; keep making threads.

I just made a post about power creep and was slammed with reasons people dont want it. I think only a comment or 2 atleast understood where the post was coming from

Top reason being they dont want their favorite weapons invalidated which is DEs most common route with power creep. Its gives power creep a bad rep and is being done wrong, unlike the current increase power with these crystals. Youre not invalidating anything thats loved really

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9 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Power has been out of control for years. Why does someone make a thread about it every day? We were gods back in 2015, why does it matter that we are now? Sorry, did your nuke go from 100 kilotons to 101? Does it matter after a certain point? Why do you all think power creep is a problem, we're already so far passed the line. You're effectively just complaining about the games core design. Ain't gonna change; keep making threads.

There's a few reasons.

1. Numbers only go so high before the game isn't built to let numbers get higher. See overflow issues that occurred with number displays with some buggy / broken builds, like pre-patched Basmu.

2. It affects the kind of content made in response. See damage attenuation in Liches. Not bad if done right. Can go pretty horribly wrong (number of discussions were once pointing out that an unmodded weapon could do better damage against Liches - IDK if that's been patched at all).

3. Balancing, like with quests, becomes a bit of an issue, especially when the power increases aren't linear. There's a difference between having a Primed Serration that adds 250% damage (linear) and something totally novel like shield gating. That can muck with quest designs going forward (see point 2) but also content retroactively (see Conclave).

4. It's really, really easy for things to go wrong in bumping up power. Linear increases like that Primed Serration are easy. Everyone gets those. Take out damage fall-off from AoE weapons, for example, and because that buff is more isolated, you start to power creep away some options. Or you put in shield gating thinking you prevent one-shots and create cast-heavy metas that lean toward invulnerability. Fun, but possibly not intended. And lastly, related to that

5. Power increases aren't always universal. If Exalted weapons get some massive power increases, great, players get more power - unless they prefer using a Warframe like Equinox, who doesn't have one. Depending how that power increases, and what content gets released in response, we can see some of our favoured things just fall to the wayside because they don't end up on the buffing block. If we had a properly linear, explicit progression system, getting new better stuff that we upgrade to, that might not be too much of a problem. But a lot of the buffs are more haphazard than that. See Wukong being a meta pick and acquired early-on.

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On 2022-08-30 at 7:36 PM, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

I feel like the start of this power creep will have to start with shield-gating. This is one of the best survivability tool in the game as it completely negate damage. There is some drawback as this survivability is reliant on the energy cost of your ability so more efficiency can be detrimental as you sometimes can't regain all your shields with one cast and less efficiency make it hard to sustain energy. Also, frames with huge shield pools are at a disadvantage as they have to rely more on the expensive abilities, have run blind rage, or have to waste more mod slots for augur mods so they can get all their shields back for full shield-gating 

WF has been power creeping itself for years now.  Didn't start with shield gating.  As far as that goes I don't think it's any more or less egregious than using primed flow+ Quick thinking.  Both are not equally effective for all frames and both usually require a bit of an investment to rely on.  The former is countered by toxin and slash procs.  The latter is beaten by energy drain eximus.

On 2022-08-30 at 7:36 PM, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

The second start of power creep will have to be helminth. Some Warframes' best ability was put into helminth such as Warcry, Roar, Eclipse, and Gloom. There is more good abilities but these are some of the go to picks. With gloom and warcry can be on other frames that have more better abilities, sevagoth and valkyr are use less. 

Helminth is a side grade at most for a vast majority of frames.  Even the frames that get better by a notable degree still have their own quirks and kit based issues that hold them back a fair bit.  If Helminth was actually creating a power level problem Pablo would've noted so when he did an interview with Brozime.  Instead in said interview Pablo explicitly stated he doesn't think Helminth carries any frames.  Which to me means while some frames arguably become better with say, gloom, it doesn't really move the needle on the frame in any meaningful way.  DE decided the best way to handle out of band abilities was to make them perform worse when subsumed onto a frame.  So that's taken care of.

On 2022-08-30 at 7:36 PM, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

The third would have to be weapon arcanes with AoE guns. This is getting nerf but I personally do not think the first round of nerf going to affect much. If they really want to go the ammo route I feel like AoE should use heavy ammo or have their own ammo type that is a lower chance of dropping over rifle and pistol ammo. Also, other option can be AoE weapons should not be able to use ammo mutation.  

With the upcoming nerf to AoE we will also be getting a change to armor stripping abilities making almost every weapon viable now. Being able to have access to Pillage or Terrify on every frame there will be almost no excuse for a player to complain an enemy is too bulky. 

AoE was and is and will always be something the devs are forced to tinker with given the nature of the game.  It's important to recognize that the goal of this change and all other AoE nerfs in the past isn't to make them not an attractive option anymore.  It's to make sure that other weapon types get breathing room.  The last major nerf we got to AoE in regards to weapons was awhile ago.  Since then the player has gotten a lot stronger so it only makes sense that they had to take another look at AoE again.  Personally I think it will be okay that AoE will still be used frequently along side this armor strip change.  Because this means you're having to do something to clear a hallway with an AoE gun instead of just pointing yourself down said hallway.  Follows their current philosophy of keeping players around the same power level but requiring the player to do more to actually have said power.

On 2022-08-30 at 7:36 PM, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

I personally would disagree that Archon Crystal going be even more power creep because 1 Archon Crystal buff is barely or not even close to replace an Arcane or mod. Pablo even state that you will need 5 amber archon crystal (discounting the tauforged one) to almost be a replacement for Arcane energize. At most you will only be able to replace 2 mods/arcanes. For some frames it may be possible to do 3 but that is a slim chance and I can't think of one on top of my head. In my opinion this is the most balanced new system we have got these past years and it also the most interesting on what people will or could do for each frame.

Becoming more powerful as time goes on is literally what power creep is.  The crystal system doesn't replace modding or arcanes.  It's an addition to it.  So you're going to become more powerful.

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18 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

1. Numbers only go so high before the game isn't built to let numbers get higher. See overflow issues that occurred with number displays with some buggy / broken builds, like pre-patched Basmu.

2. It affects the kind of content made in response. See damage attenuation in Liches. Not bad if done right. Can go pretty horribly wrong (number of discussions were once pointing out that an unmodded weapon could do better damage against Liches - IDK if that's been patched at all).

3. Balancing, like with quests, becomes a bit of an issue, especially when the power increases aren't linear. There's a difference between having a Primed Serration that adds 250% damage (linear) and something totally novel like shield gating. That can muck with quest designs going forward (see point 2) but also content retroactively (see Conclave).

4. It's really, really easy for things to go wrong in bumping up power. Linear increases like that Primed Serration are easy. Everyone gets those. Take out damage fall-off from AoE weapons, for example, and because that buff is more isolated, you start to power creep away some options. Or you put in shield gating thinking you prevent one-shots and create cast-heavy metas that lean toward invulnerability. Fun, but possibly not intended. And lastly, related to that

5. Power increases aren't always universal. If Exalted weapons get some massive power increases, great, players get more power - unless they prefer using a Warframe like Equinox, who doesn't have one. Depending how that power increases, and what content gets released in response, we can see some of our favoured things just fall to the wayside because they don't end up on the buffing block. If we had a properly linear, explicit progression system, getting new better stuff that we upgrade to, that might not be too much of a problem. But a lot of the buffs are more haphazard than that. See Wukong being a meta pick and acquired early-on.

1. Those numbers are still attainable now and have been for some time. Engine limitations are definitely a thing, although its actually pretty easy to fix overflow (or should be, don't know what their engine is under the hood) should it become a relevant problem moving forward.

2. The content made will be reactive to the power creep whether you do 30000000 damage or 30000100. The attenuation formula takes your outgoing damage, so its actually pretty agnostic of any power creep. Its adaptive. Content creep is something i welcome because I have yet to find something that even a half loadout can't decimate. What do i mean by half loadout? I mean i can purposefully handicap myself and still clear all the content that has come out in the game with extreme ease.

3. Balancing? In Warframe? Can we get real? DE isn't motivated by balance, they are motivated by making sure players aren't AFK'ing their game or hindering other people's experience.

4. It sure is, and they do it all the time. They did it with acolyte mods, galvanized mods, primed mods, arcanes. It's been the same story for years in the form of different offerings. People complained about power creep then, but we all use these staple "mandatory" sources of damage now and its just business as usual. The game doesn't really feel very different on a macro scale from what it did in 2015. Kill count might be higher (although i attribute higher kill count to higher spawns from SP, because lets be honest, the only limiting factor of how fast I can kill enemies is how fast they spawn).

5. Non universal power increase doesn't really pertain to power creep in the general sense, but let's talk about it. Plenty of things have fallen to the wayside in Warframe. This is probably my biggest gripe. As a game that advertises that everything is viable, it sucks when something like wukongs exalted staff becomes worse than a regular melee weapon. An argument could be made that this is because of power creep in the sense that "everything BUT" the exalted weapon creeped up. Which just means a lack of consistency from the developers, which I agree, is definitely a problem with Warframe.

Consistency has always been the biggest problem with Warframe and I've been saying it for years. Consistently.

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