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AFKframe is an alternative playstyle that should be considered for balance, not removal


NezuHimeSama

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Every time there's a nerf to AFK style players, there's always a batch of players who are against it.

Are they really wrong for that? Is AFK not just another playstyle, focusing on optimizing a build to deploy it's self? Do you really need to tell the player how they should have fun with a videogame?

There's lots of people who like strategy and build optimization over fast paced action. Couldn't warframe bridge the gap, like it accidently did and accidently sort of still does? Can't accidents be happy?

 

As someone who never bothered with wukong twin, and doesn't generally AFK playstyle for anything outside of agreeable party dynamics. Do we have to hate on people who have a different idea of fun?

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AFK, away from keyboard means the game is playing itself that's not a play style it's a setup that allows for the absence of a player while they reap the same or greater reward than someone engaging with the content. Let it burn in a tire fire.

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20 minutes ago, Jokie155 said:

'Having fun' in a game by disengaging from it entirely means there's a problem with the gameplay loop itself. Personally I'd rather see fixes on the other half of that, but whatever.

A fair point to consider. Not everything in Warframe is engaging, in fact, a lot of it is pointless busywork. There's a truckload of content deserving of proper reworks, standing prices that should be adjusted depending upon the utilitarian value of the item & RNG drop rates that should be looked at. At the same time, AFK players simply shouldn't be rewarded. If I have to defend an excavator on my lonesome while they fart around in the background, refusing to assist, why reward that behavior any more than you have to?

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AFAIK, you can still equip Wukong with a battery-powered non-AoE weapon - a kitgun, for example - and it'll go to town, as automated as current.

So it is being balanced.

It's only being "removed" if you define "removed" as "being less optimal than active gameplay". Which it ought to be. Even genuine idle games play that way: active play is better rewarded than passive.

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Yes, there are multiple incentives for a game developer, to want to steer players towards some play styles and away from others, including AFK. Sometimes what people want, isn't actually what people want. I know that might sound condescending or patronising, but its accurate in a lot of contexts. I am not an expert chef for example. I know I like cheese, and I know I like chicken, but I have no idea how different flavours enhance, compete, over power or affect each other, the way I chef might. I might not necessarily like a meal they serve, but if I talked to one, with references, they'd probably be able to make something I'd enjoy a lot more than something I could create. Players aren't game developers. 

For a multiplayer free to play game, DE is going to have a lot of data about player habits, they can draw conclusions from. There may not be anything inherently wrong with an "AFK play style" in a vacuum, but they may know that more players generally prefer and have a better positive experience, playing with other players who are active and seem present. Like hypothetically if you entered a Public game, and no one else joined, DE could make 3 AI players appear, to simulate players... but maybe they know that for most players, thats a poor substitute and in lieu of actual players, just defaulting to solo is a better alternative. Or the AI players in that instance could be a detriment (like they can be in Index) or just hard to balance around. 

Accidents can generally be happy sure, but this isn't a general accident, its a specific issue. I tripped over and noticed a $20 bill under my bed is a happy accident, I tripped and shattered my jaw and need to spend $1000 to get it fixed, less so. Its about context. You don't go to an ER and present general ideas about maybe the accidents people endure being happy? 

The much better argument to make here, around "AFK" is addressing the reason why many wish to employ such strategies and seeing if there are ways to accommodate such players in other ways. Personally, I get bored of Warframe, if I play it too much, but I also take large breaks between updates. Which DE probably is aware of as a general issue, but as long as I and others consistently return, thats valuable to them. Its if we ever stop returning thats an issue, especially if the influx of new players can't help balance that. Some potential solutions to that is new content that can help retain me a little bit more (so like the Weekly Sortie, is an incentive, so that maybe instead of a three week break, I pop in at least once a week). 

So some changes to AFK play styles, may mean some players just quit and leave the game, but... with the sort of data they can access, knowing that players tend to leave generally, to relative degrees, wanting to avoid AFK play styles is probably seen as a net positive. 

To put it another way, I have a friend who likes to play games, and he loves "free speech" and having a laugh. What's wrong with a little bit of offensive and crude banter in the Chat eh? Why shouldn't he be allowed to get drunk and talk about his love making techniques with different ethnicities with blunt language? Well... that might be his "play style", but DE doesn't want that in the General Chat for its players to be exposed to. Their are rules and guidelines prohibiting such behaviour. Personally I don't care about random people talking about random inappropriate things, but I am not going to try and argue with DE over letting people use whatever language they want in chat. 

Also I like to hack for fun. Why should that bother people? Why is DE trying to ban me for having fun? Well... no, they are not trying to stop fun, they are trying to stop hacking. Bad argument to try and equivocate the two. 

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The AFK playstyle is not only comparable or even superior in damage output to other players, which can be disruptive in its own right, but it also feels really bad to have to put in significant effort to match somebody who... just does not care. Probably.

Bear in mind, the number of people who are doing this for the style points or the achievement, whilst likely significant, will pale in comparison to those doing it because it is the most efficient way to farm resources and complete content, and who therefore does not care about the aspect of fun, at least at the time you're playing together. Kind of like playing with a hacker.

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hace 1 hora, NezuHimeSama dijo:

Every time there's a nerf to AFK style players, there's always a batch of players who are against it.

Are they really wrong for that? Is AFK not just another playstyle, focusing on optimizing a build to deploy it's self? Do you really need to tell the player how they should have fun with a videogame?

There's lots of people who like strategy and build optimization over fast paced action. Couldn't warframe bridge the gap, like it accidently did and accidently sort of still does? Can't accidents be happy?

 

As someone who never bothered with wukong twin, and doesn't generally AFK playstyle for anything outside of agreeable party dynamics. Do we have to hate on people who have a different idea of fun?

You have played many chinese games huh

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Every time an AFK player is still at the start or just sitting somewhere in the middle of the map while everyone is waiting for the extraction timer to finish, Jesus weeps.

Every time everyone else swipes left but the timer counts down and the AFK player misses it and goes for another round alone,

Show Bless GIF

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2 hours ago, Jokie155 said:

'Having fun' in a game by disengaging from it entirely means there's a problem with the gameplay loop itself. Personally I'd rather see fixes on the other half of that, but whatever.

100% this. Make the game funner, dont punish people for being bored needing to run the same mission 300 times or spend 10 hours in the same mission to get what they want

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I have zero sympathy. AFK is not a playstyle, it's you not playing the game.

If they were AFK farming solo I might have less of an issue with it (not really, but at least I wouldn't have to see it). But for some reason they don't - they play publicly, and more often than not, also rely on other players to do the "work" for them, like making sure the mission actually gets completed, because guess what - it turns out you need other players in order to AFK. They're blatantly taking advantage of their fellow players, and no, I don't think that's cool and certainly should not be encouraged.

How do you run an entire mission and then look at the guy who's been afk during the whole thing with anything but contempt and disgust?

The farm is hard and sometimes unfair, but you should never sit in the middle of the field and make everyone else till the land for you while you do nothing, painting your nails under your umbrella and sipping lemonade while they all sweat and burn and labor. IRL, you'd get none of the wages and everyone in the field would absolutely hate you, and I'm really glad DE finally put some afk detection in, it did help cut down on this (pathetic) behavior a bit, although they could still do more.

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4 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

100% this. Make the game funner, dont punish people for being bored needing to run the same mission 300 times or spend 10 hours in the same mission to get what they want

I know a great way to make the game more fun. Only you will still cry from the nerf, as this is part of the plan.

You know, I had a lot of fun when the new Eximus came out. And then people cried and now they are almost no threat, but people continue to cry because they cannot automate them well.

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb NezuHimeSama:

Every time there's a nerf to AFK style players, there's always a batch of players who are against it.

Are they really wrong for that? Is AFK not just another playstyle, focusing on optimizing a build to deploy it's self? Do you really need to tell the player how they should have fun with a videogame?

There's lots of people who like strategy and build optimization over fast paced action. Couldn't warframe bridge the gap, like it accidently did and accidently sort of still does? Can't accidents be happy?

 

As someone who never bothered with wukong twin, and doesn't generally AFK playstyle for anything outside of agreeable party dynamics. Do we have to hate on people who have a different idea of fun?

i cant see these fairy tales about afk anymore......

where is it possible????????? and why?????????
what mission??????????
or do you play with it on sp??????? (good joke!)

and what about logs? the devs see it and can ban accounts very quickly until 2035.

this is so embarrassing...

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Afk is obviously bad, low effort-lazy builds on another hand- should exist,
considering many of  the grinds take way too long (and how many mobile defense "fun " we have )
and i don't see changes to them on a horizon.

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2 hours ago, BR31 said:

Afk is obviously bad, low effort-lazy builds on another hand- should exist,
considering many of  the grinds take way too long (and how many mobile defense "fun " we have )
and i don't see changes to them on a horizon.

One problem is not permanent to be an argument for another problem, I think. The developers want not only the players to have fun, but also that they play longer. Effective automated builds accelerate the farm, which means that the developers need to artificially stretch farm duration, because they cannot produce new content every month, but they want big online. 

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15 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Every time there's a nerf to AFK style players, there's always a batch of players who are against it.

Are they really wrong for that? Is AFK not just another playstyle, focusing on optimizing a build to deploy it's self? Do you really need to tell the player how they should have fun with a videogame?

There's lots of people who like strategy and build optimization over fast paced action. Couldn't warframe bridge the gap, like it accidently did and accidently sort of still does? Can't accidents be happy?

 

As someone who never bothered with wukong twin, and doesn't generally AFK playstyle for anything outside of agreeable party dynamics. Do we have to hate on people who have a different idea of fun?

How to balance: You can complete missions and objectives while AFK, but enemies no longer drop items, you get no affinity at the end of the missions and no rewards from rotations. But the mission will still be considered as complete. The punishment should fit the crime. If your way of "fun" is to completely disengage from the game, then the rewards of engaging in the game should also "go AFK."

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50 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

that's new to me.
I've been playing since 2013 and all they wanted is motivation for plat/cosmetic purchases with real cash....

Believe me. Warframe monetization is very far from other MMOs. At least we do not farm the form for half a year.

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)LoisGordils said:

How to balance: You can complete missions and objectives while AFK, but enemies no longer drop items, you get no affinity at the end of the missions and no rewards from rotations. But the mission will still be considered as complete. The punishment should fit the crime. If your way of "fun" is to completely disengage from the game, then the rewards of engaging in the game should also "go AFK."

The main problem is that you cannot distinguish between afk and active players very accurately. People will figure out the rules for enabling the afk mod and make a new way of avoiding it. After all, how do you tell the difference between the toothpicks holding w key? 

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15 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Every time there's a nerf to AFK style players, there's always a batch of players who are against it.

Are they really wrong for that? Is AFK not just another playstyle, focusing on optimizing a build to deploy it's self? Do you really need to tell the player how they should have fun with a videogame?

There's lots of people who like strategy and build optimization over fast paced action. Couldn't warframe bridge the gap, like it accidently did and accidently sort of still does? Can't accidents be happy?

 

As someone who never bothered with wukong twin, and doesn't generally AFK playstyle for anything outside of agreeable party dynamics. Do we have to hate on people who have a different idea of fun?

Its interesting, like in saints row 3, its kind of cool to see your custom team of saints fight off bad guys themselves, watching them have your back. And even while playing afk in warframe, its not like youre actually not still playing the game as you have to still be there to gather resources and what not.

Maybe a specific gamemode where resources are cut in half to make it not as efficent as playing the game, but useful if youre too busy to play? Idk it needs a lot more thought for it to work out. The reason DE wants you actively playing the game is because it increases your desire to purchase cosmetics which is there biggest source of income for beimg able to keep their game breathing, without making us pay for updates and what not.

It also adds value to trading gear items within warframe, which is more than likely the thing that platinum gets spent on the most. Having to actively play the game to get a rare gear item, increases the chance that you may get exhausted after many failed attempts than you would if you just went afk, meaning that buying platinum starts looking a lot more interesting.

So if you (we) want afk in warframe, It has to be done in a way that doesnt just pleases us and hurts DE by giving them more work for less payoff. It has to benefit both sides 

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