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AFKframe is an alternative playstyle that should be considered for balance, not removal


NezuHimeSama

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On 2022-09-01 at 1:17 AM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Yes, there are multiple incentives for a game developer, to want to steer players towards some play styles and away from others, including AFK. Sometimes what people want, isn't actually what people want. I know that might sound condescending or patronising, but its accurate in a lot of contexts. I am not an expert chef for example. I know I like cheese, and I know I like chicken, but I have no idea how different flavours enhance, compete, over power or affect each other, the way I chef might. I might not necessarily like a meal they serve, but if I talked to one, with references, they'd probably be able to make something I'd enjoy a lot more than something I could create. Players aren't game developers. 

For a multiplayer free to play game, DE is going to have a lot of data about player habits, they can draw conclusions from. There may not be anything inherently wrong with an "AFK play style" in a vacuum, but they may know that more players generally prefer and have a better positive experience, playing with other players who are active and seem present. Like hypothetically if you entered a Public game, and no one else joined, DE could make 3 AI players appear, to simulate players... but maybe they know that for most players, thats a poor substitute and in lieu of actual players, just defaulting to solo is a better alternative. Or the AI players in that instance could be a detriment (like they can be in Index) or just hard to balance around. 

Accidents can generally be happy sure, but this isn't a general accident, its a specific issue. I tripped over and noticed a $20 bill under my bed is a happy accident, I tripped and shattered my jaw and need to spend $1000 to get it fixed, less so. Its about context. You don't go to an ER and present general ideas about maybe the accidents people endure being happy? 

The much better argument to make here, around "AFK" is addressing the reason why many wish to employ such strategies and seeing if there are ways to accommodate such players in other ways. Personally, I get bored of Warframe, if I play it too much, but I also take large breaks between updates. Which DE probably is aware of as a general issue, but as long as I and others consistently return, thats valuable to them. Its if we ever stop returning thats an issue, especially if the influx of new players can't help balance that. Some potential solutions to that is new content that can help retain me a little bit more (so like the Weekly Sortie, is an incentive, so that maybe instead of a three week break, I pop in at least once a week). 

So some changes to AFK play styles, may mean some players just quit and leave the game, but... with the sort of data they can access, knowing that players tend to leave generally, to relative degrees, wanting to avoid AFK play styles is probably seen as a net positive. 

To put it another way, I have a friend who likes to play games, and he loves "free speech" and having a laugh. What's wrong with a little bit of offensive and crude banter in the Chat eh? Why shouldn't he be allowed to get drunk and talk about his love making techniques with different ethnicities with blunt language? Well... that might be his "play style", but DE doesn't want that in the General Chat for its players to be exposed to. Their are rules and guidelines prohibiting such behaviour. Personally I don't care about random people talking about random inappropriate things, but I am not going to try and argue with DE over letting people use whatever language they want in chat. 

Also I like to hack for fun. Why should that bother people? Why is DE trying to ban me for having fun? Well... no, they are not trying to stop fun, they are trying to stop hacking. Bad argument to try and equivocate the two. 

I am just sick of trolls cause no matter how you phrase it it’s against the coc and it makes the community more toxic so I understand DE why and when they kick or suspend chat privileges. The last thing we need is a new destiny 2 community 

 

On 2022-09-01 at 4:04 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

I have zero sympathy. AFK is not a playstyle, it's you not playing the game.

If they were AFK farming solo I might have less of an issue with it (not really, but at least I wouldn't have to see it). But for some reason they don't - they play publicly, and more often than not, also rely on other players to do the "work" for them, like making sure the mission actually gets completed, because guess what - it turns out you need other players in order to AFK. They're blatantly taking advantage of their fellow players, and no, I don't think that's cool and certainly should not be encouraged.

How do you run an entire mission and then look at the guy who's been afk during the whole thing with anything but contempt and disgust?

The farm is hard and sometimes unfair, but you should never sit in the middle of the field and make everyone else till the land for you while you do nothing, painting your nails under your umbrella and sipping lemonade while they all sweat and burn and labor. IRL, you'd get none of the wages and everyone in the field would absolutely hate you, and I'm really glad DE finally put some afk detection in, it did help cut down on this (pathetic) behavior a bit, although they could still do more.

Here here I fully agree DETH TO ALL AFK PLAYERS!

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2 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

that's new to me.
I've been playing since 2013 and all they wanted is motivation for plat/cosmetic purchases with real cash....

I have been with them since then too, and say that this is just a completely twisted way of seeing what theyre actually doing. To put what youre saying in full perspective, Its like saying a doctor doesnt care about your health just because they ask for money when it is the only way they can Eat food, drink water, and have a roof over their head....

Like what are you expecting? DE to say "forget life, ima just be your slave and feed from the crumbs of your table while you enjoy all of my hard work that i spend 8-12hours a day working on, and had to spend large amounts of money on to keep my ever growing team of hard workers fed with roofs over their heads. Yea we'll just eat your crumbs cause we deserve that"

Please, DE cares about us, just as some good doctors care about your health, they ask for money as a necessity not a luxury. Dont get it twisted

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14 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

If they were AFK farming solo I might have less of an issue with it (not really, but at least I wouldn't have to see it). But for some reason they don't - they play publicly, and more often than not, also rely on other players to do the "work" for them, like making sure the mission actually gets completed, because guess what - it turns out you need other players in order to AFK. They're blatantly taking advantage of their fellow players, and no, I don't think that's cool and certainly should not be encouraged.

 

Right, I feel like this detail gets lost. The OP ponders if creating an optimized AFK build is a feature worth supporting, but how many gameplay modes can one actually put together an "AFK build" for? Survival and Defense, assuming the player moves to the defense objective?

You can't mod into an AFK Spy build or an AFK Rescue build -- at least, not as far as I can tell. And I can't even begin to conceive of how you'd build for AFK Disruption.

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WhimsicalRespectfulCheetah-size_restrict

... I haven't done this in a long time, but I can't hold back in this specific thread due to how stupid it is.

"No, it isn't!" You might think... But it is.

 

Here's how ridiculous "AFK is a playstyle" actually sounds like:

  • Not showing up for work, not getting paid as a result and ending up as a homeless bum is a workstyle.

... Tell everyone how rewarding actually is being a homeless bum and maybe, just maybe, this thread might put a pixel from one of either foot out of the "stupid 'till no end" region while the rest of the body is effectively trapped in concrete inside of that region.

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Wow, people in warframe are super hostile towards people who favor non-action gameplay styles. Very sad to see such toxicity in the WF community.

9 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Its interesting, like in saints row 3, its kind of cool to see your custom team of saints fight off bad guys themselves, watching them have your back. And even while playing afk in warframe, its not like youre actually not still playing the game as you have to still be there to gather resources and what not.

Maybe a specific gamemode where resources are cut in half to make it not as efficent as playing the game, but useful if youre too busy to play? Idk it needs a lot more thought for it to work out. The reason DE wants you actively playing the game is because it increases your desire to purchase cosmetics which is there biggest source of income for beimg able to keep their game breathing, without making us pay for updates and what not.

It also adds value to trading gear items within warframe, which is more than likely the thing that platinum gets spent on the most. Having to actively play the game to get a rare gear item, increases the chance that you may get exhausted after many failed attempts than you would if you just went afk, meaning that buying platinum starts looking a lot more interesting.

So if you (we) want afk in warframe, It has to be done in a way that doesnt just pleases us and hurts DE by giving them more work for less payoff. It has to benefit both sides 

I agree, but I think this can be done effectively just by making sure that active play is more optimal than AFK play per game time spent, which it almost universally already is.

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59 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

toxicity in the WF community

Its just the forums by the way. Theres a particular group of people here that enjoy finding ways to be as unnecessary as possible 

Dont let them way you down too much, or just dont acknowledge them. Every now and then youll find a soul here who actually thinks before speaking and isnt going to be immature. I just talk to them and leave the others to their craziness

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9 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... I haven't done this in a long time, but I can't hold back in this specific thread due to how stupid it is.

"No, it isn't!" You might think... But it is.

 

Here's how ridiculous "AFK is a playstyle" actually sounds like:

  • Not showing up for work, not getting paid as a result and ending up as a homeless bum is a workstyle.

... Tell everyone how rewarding actually is being a homeless bum and maybe, just maybe, this thread might put a pixel from one of either foot out of the "stupid 'till no end" region while the rest of the body is effectively trapped in concrete inside of that region.

There's a significant difference between not working and not getting paid
and not working and getting paid

Some of the richest people in the world are afk workers. How much work do you think a landlord actually does? Some people can live almost entirely off of royalties. It's a very functional work style, actually. Usually more along the lines of, do an amount of work, and then sit back and let that work carry you until you ether feel like or have to do more. The difficult part is knowing how, having the funds to actually start, and getting lucky.

And you do know idle games exist... right? An entire genre of game exists around the concept, it's a play style.

Maybe not a good one. Maybe it shouldn't be in the game. Maybe the game shouldn't be so monotonous that people feel like it's nessesary
But a playstyle it is none the less.

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On 2022-08-31 at 7:38 PM, PollexMessier said:

100% this. Make the game funner, dont punish people for being bored needing to run the same mission 300 times or spend 10 hours in the same mission to get what they want

AFK people don't want to play the game, so making the game more fun won't make them any more likely to play (even if it benefits the rest of us)

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3 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Wow, people in warframe are super hostile towards people who favor non-action gameplay styles. Very sad to see such toxicity in the WF community

I understand that in some people call toxicity everything that you do not like, but in this case, this is a statement of fact. Games have a game design. There are games where you should automate some things (how to build factories), because these are the mechanics of the game. And you spend a lot of time on calculations, because it is the meaning of the game. Warframe is Lutter -Shooter/Action (judging by Wiki). And there is a strange situation that people who perform a minimum number of actions get a greater benefit and a less chance of failure than people who do a lot of actions. And I'm not saying that you are bad what you use, because optimization is literally what any player strives for. I say that you are bad because you are protecting this when DE has recognized the problem and try to fix it.

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We have a few summoner alike playstyles in warfame . And just like the other games-some people are very mad about them.
When it comes down to warframe's soc. platforms - especially mad .

But op made a mistake and put a trigger word and gave bulls a red flag.

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On 2022-09-01 at 1:23 AM, NezuHimeSama said:

Every time there's a nerf to AFK style players, there's always a batch of players who are against it.

Do you say AFK style loosely describing sitting in one spot pressing an ability every once in a while or do you actually include AFK, away from keyboard(or away from window),  gaming?

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1 hour ago, BR31 said:

We have a few summoner alike playstyles in warfame . And just like the other games-some people are very mad about them.
When it comes down to warframe's soc. platforms - especially mad .

But op made a mistake and put a trigger word and gave bulls a red flag.

The summoner doesn't mean that you won't do anything. I don't like it when people think that a summoner is made to just sit around while its summons do all the work. A summoner is a player who not only calls, but also controls. Well, ok, you can still order the clone to deal damage and it will do it very effectively. And DE buff it to keep effectiveness when they nerf the clone. So I don't think the summoner style is broken here. Wukong will still be the best summoner in the game. We lack characters like this that could customize and control pets.
And yes, khora is still going strong with mecha mods. You throw a cat at a dog mark and kill everything within 30 meters. Also a summoner style of play. But few people use it.

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23 минуты назад, selig_fay сказал:

The summoner doesn't mean that you won't do anything. I don't like it when people think that a summoner is made to just sit around while its summons do all the work. A summoner is a player who not only calls, but also controls. Well, ok, you can still order the clone to deal damage and it will do it very effectively. And DE buff it to keep effectiveness when they nerf the clone. So I don't think the summoner style is broken here. Wukong will still be the best summoner in the game. We lack characters like this that could customize and control pets.
And yes, khora is still going strong with mecha mods. You throw a cat at a dog mark and kill everything within 30 meters. Also a summoner style of play. But few people use it.

Full afk in warframe -you either don't get a reward or getting a mission failed after 5 min solo without a pause.
People who use shady stuff-that's on them and they are putting accs with 100-1000s of hours on a line.
That's barely a problem.

There are summoners which require more actions or closer to 0 . I can full afk in some mmos or path of exile , for example.

I don't think that wukong is as broken as people make him to be. People are way too sensitive about the topic.
And i have quite a few arguments for it.

Before the corrosion nerf i've used an equi duality build with a vanilla zarr with the old tripple dip gas bane build, pox corrosive and viral zenistar.
Even with the old scaling , where mobs were way tankier- this build was stronger than the current average wukong user.
I never got a complaint about it and never seen anyone complaining about it on soc platforms at all.
The only real downside to it- it's way more active playstyle, but in terms of powerlevel? Not really.
One thing goes away, two comeback.

And now this particular playstyle got collateral nerfs all around.

I get why they nerfed corro, but why corro and fire cannot get to 100% strip , after few sec, when the fire melts to the full effect?
No wonder people are rabbitholing into viral so much.
Gas is still meh and it's a combined element, which looses most of the time to a single element.
Zenistar is dead. Vanilla zarr and many other aoe were hammered too much with the radial multiplicative reduction.

Not all , but many current overused outliers is a symptom of previous balance mistakes.
It's pretty sad to see how many people keep ignoring the base problems and only tunnel vision on few bright bandaids.

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19 minutes ago, BR31 said:

Full afk in warframe -you either don't get a reward or getting a mission failed after 5 min solo without a pause.
People who use shady stuff-that's on them and they are putting accs with 100-1000s of hours on a line.
That's barely a problem.

There are summoners which require more actions or closer to 0 . I can full afk in some mmos or path of exile , for example.

I don't think that wukong is as broken as people make him to be. People are way too sensitive about the topic.
And i have quite a few arguments for it.

Before the corrosion nerf i've used an equi duality build with a vanilla zarr with the old tripple dip gas bane build, pox corrosive and viral zenistar.
Even with the old scaling , where mobs were way tankier- this build was stronger than the current average wukong user.
I never got a complaint about it and never seen anyone complaining about it on soc platforms at all.
The only real downside to it- it's way more active playstyle, but in terms of powerlevel? Not really.
One thing goes away, two comeback.

And now this particular playstyle got collateral nerfs all around.

I get why they nerfed corro, but why corro and fire cannot get to 100% strip , after few sec, when the fire melts to the full effect?
No wonder people are rabbitholing into viral so much.
Gas is still meh and it's a combined element, which looses most of the time to a single element.
Zenistar is dead. Vanilla zarr and many other aoe were hammered too much with the radial multiplicative reduction.

Not all , but many current overused outliers is a symptom of previous balance mistakes.
It's pretty sad to see how many people keep ignoring the base problems and only tunnel vision on few bright bandaids.

This has nothing to do with the current topic. The clone itself is in order. But you can give him your weapon and he will use it endlessly and without your participation. This is why the clone was AFK because you can give him AOE with endless ammunition. I think the damage and ammo nerf the clone will be created to avoid people not to do this with machine guns as the next stage of lazy gameplay. And it's all. The clone will be fine.

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Frost_Nephilim:

Its just the forums by the way. Theres a particular group of people here that enjoy finding ways to be as unnecessary as possible 

Dont let them way you down too much, or just dont acknowledge them. Every now and then youll find a soul here who actually thinks before speaking and isnt going to be immature. I just talk to them and leave the others to their craziness

ignore list is unlimited here? I have 6 pages of sick creatures on ignore. and forum read very pleasantly.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb PollexMessier:

There's a significant difference between not working and not getting paid
and not working and getting paid

Some of the richest people in the world are afk workers. How much work do you think a landlord actually does? Some people can live almost entirely off of royalties. It's a very functional work style, actually. Usually more along the lines of, do an amount of work, and then sit back and let that work carry you until you ether feel like or have to do more. The difficult part is knowing how, having the funds to actually start, and getting lucky.

And you do know idle games exist... right? An entire genre of game exists around the concept, it's a play style.

Maybe not a good one. Maybe it shouldn't be in the game. Maybe the game shouldn't be so monotonous that people feel like it's nessesary
But a playstyle it is none the less.

I can not confirm. i know rich people from real life and i don't want to have such a life. because they work from morning to night, have a lot of illnesses, are almost always stressed and often cannot sleep at night because something like S.W.A.T. can break the door.

and even employers are usually the first to come and the last to leave and even have to work on weekends. but employee works 40 hours a week and goes home on time.

vor 1 Minute schrieb selig_fay:

 

This has nothing to do with the current topic. The clone itself is in order. But you can give him your weapon and he will use it endlessly and without your participation. This is why the clone was AFK because you can give him AOE with endless ammunition. I think the damage and ammo nerf the clone will be created to avoid people not to do this with machine guns as the next stage of lazy gameplay. And it's all. The clone will be fine.

this will also work after the patch. because we have guns with unlimited ammo.
and clone afk was chewed enough. it doesn't work and it's pointless. (move wukong every 2 min and normal missions? then also account ban?...etc.)

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3 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

this will also work after the patch. because we have guns with unlimited ammo.
and clone afk was chewed enough. it doesn't work and it's pointless. (move wukong every 2 min and normal missions? then also account ban?...etc.)

After a patch, a passive clone attacks 50% of the total damage (200% when ordering an attack on the target) and eats your ammunition that will receive nerf for AOE.

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Gerade eben schrieb selig_fay:

After a patch, a passive clone attacks 50% of the total damage (200% when ordering an attack on the target) and eats your ammunition that will receive nerf for AOE.

Yes. I read it. nerfs for bramma with 5 arrows and strange ammo mechanic were probably not enough.
this is all about afk?! I still don't understand why, how and where is it played with?

i asked several people where wukongs play afk and no one answered. (understandable why)
because that is nonsense. beginner can buy fulmin from market and get much more resources and rewards and also does much more damage than lousy clone with bramma.
above all, he can easily join a pub group with it!

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10 минут назад, selig_fay сказал:

 

This has nothing to do with the current topic. The clone itself is in order. But you can give him your weapon and he will use it endlessly and without your participation. This is why the clone was AFK because you can give him AOE with endless ammunition. I think the damage and ammo nerf the clone will be created to avoid people not to do this with machine guns as the next stage of lazy gameplay. And it's all. The clone will be fine.

It has everything on the current topic but you refuse to see it for some reason.

Most of the critiques about the wuclone come from what content? - Relics.
They were not changed that much.

Equi duality  vanilla zarr build was possible since 2016 and was used by the enjoyers of that playstyle ever since.
It had 3 builds for that content- viral slash, corro, gas. You have not had to use the full loadout that i mentioned- because it was for endurance.

It had no self damage, it aimed for you without your participation with unlimited ammo.

The only difference that you've had to cast the clone more often and build for a full duration .
But you had 300% permanent base damage buff , which was more relevant back in the day.
Wuclone now has 100% and 200% for marked targets-which no one uses.

How is that any different and why it's a that big of a problem all of a sudden ? And why not giving the wuclone duration as one of the solutions?
Power ceiling is higher, but it doesn't matter for the most popular content, and overkilling for 10 times is the same as overkilling for 100 times?

I do believe that number one reason is people dming devs all the time about it.

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21 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

I can not confirm. i know rich people from real life and i don't want to have such a life. because they work from morning to night, have a lot of illnesses, are almost always stressed and often cannot sleep at night because something like S.W.A.T. can break the door.

There's upper middle class rich. And then there's RICH rich. You're talking about the first one. I'm talking about the second.
Good investors. CEOs of companies that just collect a pay check and pay people to do their work for them. People that were just born so rich they'll never have to work a day in their life cus they have enough money to live 3 lifetimes of luxury. People that participated in a piece of media with a good payment contract that got so big they can live the entire rest of their life on royalties alone. It's not hard to find examples.

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Because most of the farm goes below level 80. And this is the level where you can fly and your clone will kill things without your participation. Or rather, you teleport a clone, the clone shoots, everything dies, you go cloudy into the cloud. Repeat. It's worse than the meta because aoe people at least fire on their own and are therefore slower.

Just imagine if there was a sentinel that could kill enemies by shooting 8 meter rockets at the floor. Who needs cats, dogs, etc., when you have a fully autonomous annihilation facility?

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vor 1 Minute schrieb PollexMessier:

There's upper middle class rich. And then there's RICH rich. You're talking about the first one. I'm talking about the second.
Good investors. CEOs of companies that just collect a pay check and pay people to do their work for them. People that were just born so rich they'll never have to work a day in their life cus they have enough money to live 3 lifetimes of luxury. People that participated in a piece of media with a good payment contract that got so big they can live the entire rest of their life on royalties alone. It's not hard to find examples.

you probably mean globalists? Of course I don't know anything like that. (and don't want to either)
but they are not afk. i only know it from a friend and he said that globalists work from morning to night to make their plans come true. but I don't want to delve deeper into the topic. otherwise the forum police are here...

and you're right. Unfortunately, parasites are prosperous species on the planet...

in the end i want to leave a plan for a day by an athlete. because many people think that you can achieve something with afk or magic pill:

typical-day-of-a-college-athlete.jpg

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

Because most of the farm goes below level 80. And this is the level where you can fly and your clone will kill things without your participation. Or rather, you teleport a clone, the clone shoots, everything dies, you go cloudy into the cloud. Repeat. It's worse than the meta because aoe people at least fire on their own and are therefore slower.

Just imagine if there was a sentinel that could kill enemies by shooting 8 meter rockets at the floor. Who needs cats, dogs, etc., when you have a fully autonomous annihilation facility?

it's still bad because i often abort the flight and kill MUCH faster with kuva ogris. so relic run is over at least twice as fast.

but many people will switch to volt anyway. he gets buffed. and then the whole group is much faster. and the run takes at least 1-2 minutes less.

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Just now, Venus-Venera said:

it's still bad because i often abort the flight and kill MUCH faster with kuva ogris. so relic run is over at least twice as fast.

but many people will switch to volt anyway. he gets buffed. and then the whole group is much faster. and the run takes at least 1-2 minutes less.

It won't because kuva ogris will get nerfed like that)

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8 минут назад, selig_fay сказал:

Because most of the farm goes below level 80. And this is the level where you can fly and your clone will kill things without your participation. Or rather, you teleport a clone, the clone shoots, everything dies, you go cloudy into the cloud. Repeat. It's worse than the meta because aoe people at least fire on their own and are therefore slower.

Just imagine if there was a sentinel that could kill enemies by shooting 8 meter rockets at the floor. Who needs cats, dogs, etc., when you have a fully autonomous annihilation facility?

Sentinel clear is possible and was done a while ago.

So the exactly the same method, with the exactly the same ai (the only fixes it got was during umbra release and small tweaks on wukong rework).
With a weapon that has the same root name . In a content where the powercreep has not changed the end result that much.
And that playstyle was not a problem for 6 years but now it's?  Public enemy number 1.

Do you understand how many logical errors this take has?

 

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

It won't because kuva ogris will get nerfed like that)

i think so because it shows up in the stats?
And I don't even want to know what's going on in the minds of devs...

but the update will be funny. big drama for many. sleepless nights and lots of tears. I don't have popcorn, but I have enough beer.

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