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AFKframe is an alternative playstyle that should be considered for balance, not removal


NezuHimeSama

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vor 12 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

This style of play has been a problem for all 9 years. This is why Trinity received so many nerfs) 

harrow does it better. and he does top damage. i usually stand next to aoe warframe and then the party starts. we farmed 400 vitus in 40 minutes when there was double res weekend.

trinity has to hammer on skill and i never liked the way it was played. and i camped with the guys for hours in defs in 2013/2014. fun factor is below 0.

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Trin's full kit was powercrept and replaced with so many tools , that i don't see a relevance here.
You can add Scott's personal vendetta on top of it , which is ironic, since he designed wisp .

But her link transfer damage was indeed too powerful and mostly fixed.

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37 минут назад, selig_fay сказал:

This style of play has been a problem for all 9 years. This is why Trinity received so many nerfs) 

No it wasn't for 9 years , it was exactly for 6 .
And the draco +after meta was way different and used different mechanics. That's offtopic.

I showed you exactly the same method with the same ai, weapon and problems. Where are the complaints in those 6 years?
And now everyone is pretending that it's something outrageous and new . It's not.

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13 minutes ago, BR31 said:

No it wasn't for 9 years , it was exactly for 6 .
And the draco +after meta was way different and used different mechanics. That's offtopic.

I showed you exactly the same method with the same ai, weapon and problems. Where are the complaints in those 6 years?
And now everyone is pretending that it's something outrageous and new . It's not.

Tell this to my immortal Trinity, which destroyed content with the help of Ogris. And to say the immortal, I mean the immortal. This was the first warframe that suppressed content in the game. And when everyone saw this, everyone knew that this was evil, which had to be destroyed. But then, for some reason it became normal with other frames. And we began to add more broken pieces to the game. More explosions. And if you think that Self-Damage somehow stopped me, haha. You are funny. The ancient evil is still here. But no one notices this until suddenly Castanas is found and begins to dominate ESO. People do not know that there is another way to reduce damage, but approx. Well, now we are here. We did everything to destroy ancient evil. Yes? Why? Armorsstrip Link + AOE.

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4 минуты назад, selig_fay сказал:

Tell this to my immortal Trinity, which destroyed content with the help of Ogris. And to say the immortal, I mean the immortal. This was the first warframe that suppressed content in the game. And when everyone saw this, everyone knew that this was evil, which had to be destroyed. But then, for some reason it became normal with other frames. And we began to add more broken pieces to the game. More explosions. And if you think that Self-Damage somehow stopped me, haha. You are funny. The ancient evil is still here. But no one notices this until suddenly Castanas is found and begins to dominate ESO. People do not know that there is another way to reduce damage, but approx. Well, now we are here. We did everything to destroy ancient evil. Yes? Why? Armorsstrip Link + AOE.

The previous discussion was about zarr wuclone and its ancestors. You have not answered to my arguments at all.

Trinity was immortal for some time, but it was mostly fixed.
Now she's tanky but not level 9999 tanky and there are mechanics that can do it rn both solo and in a squad but easier.

Aoe damage is good for aoe content, that's a shocker indeed (we got disruption and void cascade where the singletarget shines, but people ignore it).
Without macros you could die using castanas trin and ammo eff was super bad, no exilus slot back then.
It's not like we have over 6 builds with comparable kpm rn in that content without counting the aoe launchers, esp their outliers.
So where's the evil exactly?

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1 hour ago, BR31 said:

The previous discussion was about zarr wuclone and its ancestors. You have not answered to my arguments at all.

Trinity was immortal for some time, but it was mostly fixed.
Now she's tanky but not level 9999 tanky and there are mechanics that can do it rn both solo and in a squad but easier.

Aoe damage is good for aoe content, that's a shocker indeed (we got disruption and void cascade where the singletarget shines, but people ignore it).
Without macros you could die using castanas trin and ammo eff was super bad, no exilus slot back then.
It's not like we have over 6 builds with comparable kpm rn in that content without counting the aoe launchers, esp their outliers.
So where's the evil exactly?

You tell me that this was not a problem for 6 years, I tell you that this is a problem for 9 years and I give you a great example. I can remind you about trumpet times if you like. Times when people stood and pressed one or two buttons. Oh well, the hardest part was necros, he was spamming 3 all the time. Oh, dont forget a banshee and trinity 2 spam. Only frost and volt chill. 

This meta must die. If you love to play these things, don't worry. If you abuse it, put up with it. And so we find the next meta and it will die too. Yes, maybe DE fail, but it will do its job and provide game variety because people will go into the game and review builds. And even if you piss, you'll still enjoy it otherwise, I don't know why you're playing.

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8 минут назад, selig_fay сказал:

You tell me that this was not a problem for 6 years, I tell you that this is a problem for 9 years and I give you a great example. I can remind you about trumpet times if you like. Times when people stood and pressed one or two buttons. Oh well, the hardest part was necros, he was spamming 3 all the time. Oh, dont forget a banshee and trinity 2 spam. Only frost and volt chill. 

This meta must die. If you love to play these things, don't worry. If you abuse it, put up with it. And so we find the next meta and it will die too. Yes, maybe DE fail, but it will do its job and provide game variety because people will go into the game and review builds. And even if you piss, you'll still enjoy it otherwise, I don't know why you're playing.

1. ) 9 years ago the strategy included multiple people and used different frames and mechanics, non-existing now tiles without addition of nullies and alike mobs, new eximus units, etc.
It's not the same thing, sorry.

2.) If some (player's specter with a gun copy) strategy was so broken and was known for such a long time and was meta- meaning it was better than everything else- how it turned out that it wasn't oppressive enough to cause a negative feedback/changes from neither dev team or community? In whole 6 years.
Feel free to have your opinion, but mine is- it's illogical.

3.) General powercreep made this strat more accessible, but you never needed that level of power for the most popular content, where the most negative comments come from rn.
 

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Just to get a bit more in-depth:

I don't think an AFK playstyle is necessarily a problem. The problem is that it's either poorly, or not, intended, and so lacks good design for it.

For a better example, consider Railjack. If you get an AI crew, you can coast through good chunks of those missions, with only some side-objectives that need to be done. Remove the side objectives and, perhaps, crewships and you end up with something that has a pretty effective, intended, and designed total AFK playstyle. It's not as fast as doing it yourself, because the player can use abilities like Seeker Missiles to clear faster. But it can be done in a passive manner with build-up and optimization and feel like that's an intended concept. (Not to mention that the mechanics behind it are entirely unobtrusive: it only works when playing solo, where it can't affect other players.)

On the other end is something like Wukong's clone. It enables some AFK capability, but it's spotty, it's obtrusive to others when optimized, and it doesn't feel like its intended. You're not hiring a crew to fight for you or something, it's just one ability on the Warframe that, due to its interactions with other elements, makes it good at passive play. It's a happenstance of design, not a goal of it, and the upcoming changes to Wukong say as much.

Meanwhile, if you gave the player 3 Warframe spectres - ala Index, but player-equipped and built and perhaps following the player a bit more - you basically copy how Railjack does it right. It only works in solo, it's likely not as fast as doing it yourself, and its the functional intent behind those mechanics. Of course, that won't handle absolutely everything - you'll probably still need to get in to do Spy missions or Capture targets or Rescue cells and whatnot - but that's pretty much the level of AFK-ability present both in Wukong and in current Railjack.

(As an added bonus, it also gives a support Warframe like Trinity a wider niche. Spectres don't always have the tools or brains to heal themselves when they need it, after all!)

So if we really were going to have an AFK playstyle, something like Wukong isn't the way to go. He's not designed for that, so the result ends up messy. Instead, we ought to have something that is designed to promote that, gets the right relationships between active and passive playstyles, and looks like it's actually done on purpose rather than a "happy little accident".

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vor 32 Minuten schrieb Raqiya:

What a horrible take for Warframe. Warframe has no reason to accommodate this "Playstyle", this isn't that kind of game and should 100% be frowned upon.

and it's not worth it. If I play actively, then I get a lot more rewards. and with afk you can maybe only play normal and very easy missions very slowly.

just played an arbi def and after an hour got 330 vitus without a cat. how are you supposed to achieve that with afk?

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19 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Just to get a bit more in-depth:

I don't think an AFK playstyle is necessarily a problem. The problem is that it's either poorly, or not, intended, and so lacks good design for it.

For a better example, consider Railjack. If you get an AI crew, you can coast through good chunks of those missions, with only some side-objectives that need to be done. Remove the side objectives and, perhaps, crewships and you end up with something that has a pretty effective, intended, and designed total AFK playstyle. It's not as fast as doing it yourself, because the player can use abilities like Seeker Missiles to clear faster. But it can be done in a passive manner with build-up and optimization and feel like that's an intended concept. (Not to mention that the mechanics behind it are entirely unobtrusive: it only works when playing solo, where it can't affect other players.)

On the other end is something like Wukong's clone. It enables some AFK capability, but it's spotty, it's obtrusive to others when optimized, and it doesn't feel like its intended. You're not hiring a crew to fight for you or something, it's just one ability on the Warframe that, due to its interactions with other elements, makes it good at passive play. It's a happenstance of design, not a goal of it, and the upcoming changes to Wukong say as much.

Meanwhile, if you gave the player 3 Warframe spectres - ala Index, but player-equipped and built and perhaps following the player a bit more - you basically copy how Railjack does it right. It only works in solo, it's likely not as fast as doing it yourself, and its the functional intent behind those mechanics. Of course, that won't handle absolutely everything - you'll probably still need to get in to do Spy missions or Capture targets or Rescue cells and whatnot - but that's pretty much the level of AFK-ability present both in Wukong and in current Railjack.

(As an added bonus, it also gives a support Warframe like Trinity a wider niche. Spectres don't always have the tools or brains to heal themselves when they need it, after all!)

So if we really were going to have an AFK playstyle, something like Wukong isn't the way to go. He's not designed for that, so the result ends up messy. Instead, we ought to have something that is designed to promote that, gets the right relationships between active and passive playstyles, and looks like it's actually done on purpose rather than a "happy little accident".

Well said again!

I always liked the idea of making people work for afk, a bit akin to saryn's spores where you have to keep playing and killing before those spores start killing things for for a limited amount of time

Like have it to where the player proves they can play the game themself before catching a temporary 30 second after you summon in something like a large kubrow to come in and start destroying everything while you enjoy a cup of tea

 

Theres some really cool satisfaction one can get from seeing that you know?

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On 2022-09-02 at 2:50 AM, BR31 said:

We have a few summoner alike playstyles in warfame . And just like the other games-some people are very mad about them.
When it comes down to warframe's soc. platforms - especially mad .

But op made a mistake and put a trigger word and gave bulls a red flag.

Preach...

Its the strangest thing how 1 word off keeps people from seeing 2 things that are essentially the same. They all go into a sort of hypnotic state, throwing up responses with no real thought process behind them. 

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16 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Preach...

Its the strangest thing how 1 word off keeps people from seeing 2 things that are essentially the same. They all go into a sort of hypnotic state, throwing up responses with no real thought process behind them. 

You're right.

Part of the problem is that people are conflating the kind of playstyle OP is talking about with leeching. They're quite different.

I don't know if that playstyle is appropriate for Warframe - if Nekros had stronger summons, for example, he'd just be the next Wukong problem frame.

But playing a frame like that would be better than leeching for sure.

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Trying to convince people AFK is a playstyle is like trying to tell me you got some Swampland in Florida to sell.

Yes they are wrong for complaining about their AFK setups being nerfed. When you play missions with others and your letting your AFK playstyle play the game for you, your wasting other people's time. If your AFK you can't revive someone if they get downed, you can't go to extraction when its time to leave, and you can't help with objectives in missions; Like activating a key in Disruption, or dealing with the Exolizers in Void Cascade.

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