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Why do I feel like I've been conned after this update?


MqToasty

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So around a year ago, DE decided to gently nerf melee weapons in the form of slight mod adjustments and greatly boost guns in the form of Arcanes and Galvanized mods.  Like many others, I thought, "hey, guns are actually good for something other than status primers now!" and started investing in and using guns that felt good.

Yet after this update, which ostensibly was supposed to be an AOE nerf, we see: Primary Merciless completely neutered, all Ammo Mutation mods heavily nerfed, and most well-performing guns slapped with much lower Ammo Maximums.  As well, a dozen or so guns got extra nerfs on top of all that.  I only remember Pablo talking about consolidating primary ammo and changing the drop rate, but none of this extra stuff, which hits much harder.

Now, since I always preferred melee anyways, I guess I could just go back to the old ways.  But I just cannot help but feel like I've been conned and DE tricked us into investing in useless stuff and are now pulling the rug beneath our feet.

Just out of curiosity, I took a look at my arsenal and counted the number of each type of weapon I have, how many Max Rank 30 weapons I Polarized, and how much forma I tossed in.  I intentionally left out the Max Rank 40 weapons (Kuva, Tenet, Paracesis) because those polarizations serve a purpose other than, "good weapon, me like".  Here are the results:

  Weapon Count Rank30 Forma’d
Weapon Count
Rank30 Forma Count Forma / Weapon
Melee 57 15 36 2.40
Primary 33 13 58 4.46
Secondary 20 4 13 3.25

Now, I am lucky enough to be at a point in the game where I can comfortably afford to waste a few dozen forma.  But I wonder how other players feel about this?  Have you also invested in guns in the past year only to find half of them basically unusable?  Finally, I would like to add that I really want to give DE the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to an inexperienced, overzealous designer who accidentally meat-fisted this update.  Buuut I just cannot shake that nagging feeling...  😅

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Everything feels about the same for me tbh. I only have ammo issues if I deliberately go out of my way to non-stop shoot. The updates intention was to promote more weapon switching, and imo I feel it did that. People are just upset because they've been in the same comfy zone for years, so 'new change bad'.

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Just now, trst said:

You weren't rug pulled.

AOE is still perfectly usable and every non-AOE was buffed by the update. And if anything the AOE nerfs aren't nearly enough to actually impact AOE spam.

yeah uh... werent headshots on single target weapons buffed from 2x to 3x?

that's a 50% increase on all regular bullet weapons. 

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1 minute ago, SDGDen said:

yeah uh... werent headshots on single target weapons buffed from 2x to 3x?

that's a 50% increase on all regular bullet weapons. 

Yup. They may have a smaller ammo max, but the extra headshot damage more than makes up for the slight loss.

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2 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Yup. They may have a smaller ammo max, but the extra headshot damage more than makes up for the slight loss.

also for most of those, the lower ammo max isn't actually an issue since if you play the game as intended (aka by NOT sitting at the end of a hallway mindlessly firing in one direction) you should be picking up more than enough ammo to make up for the lower ammo max. 

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3 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

also for most of those, the lower ammo max isn't actually an issue since if you play the game as intended (aka by NOT sitting at the end of a hallway mindlessly firing in one direction) you should be picking up more than enough ammo to make up for the lower ammo max. 

Eeeexactly~

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47 minutes ago, ThommiX said:

Yeah, time to learn to play actually the game instead of brainless spam. You were conned only by your own mind.

Why do you assume I prefer any type of brainless spam?  If I did, I wouldn't be thinking about swapping out Pax Seeker for Pax Charge on my kitgun, now would I?

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25 minutes ago, trst said:

AOE is still perfectly usable and every non-AOE was buffed by the update.

I do not really agree with this.  With the ammo changes, guns are nerfed across the board.  Yes, AOE weapons took a bigger nerf because their Ammo Maximum and Pickup are lowered more than other weapons, but aside from Sniper Rifles and Bows which may see more drops with the ammo consolidation, which other weapon using Rifle Ammo was buffed?

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2 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

but aside from Sniper Rifles and Bows which may see more drops with the ammo consolidation, which other weapon using Rifle Ammo was buffed?

Headshot multipliers were increased across the board, and since AoE can no longer headshot, that means every non-AoE is doing more damage on headshots

from the patch notes:

  • Increased the base damage multiplier on headshots from 2x to 3x.

    This means precision weapons are more rewarded for skillful usage, leveling the playing field even further!

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4 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Headshot multipliers were increased across the board, and since AoE can no longer headshot, that means every non-AoE is doing more damage on headshots

from the patch notes:

  • Increased the base damage multiplier on headshots from 2x to 3x.

    This means precision weapons are more rewarded for skillful usage, leveling the playing field even further!

Fair enough, though I would love to see if it actually outweighs the ammo nerfs.  Only time will tell.

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30 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

I do not really agree with this.  With the ammo changes, guns are nerfed across the board.  Yes, AOE weapons took a bigger nerf because their Ammo Maximum and Pickup are lowered more than other weapons, but aside from Sniper Rifles and Bows which may see more drops with the ammo consolidation, which other weapon using Rifle Ammo was buffed?

The only nerf AOE is seeing is that you need to take two AOE weapons, or any above average range melee, and switch between the two throughout a mission. The ammo nerfs literally do not exist if you just use the new system as designed and swap weapons occasionally. You'll likely still want mutation but Vigilante Supplies is still more than enough and still buffs your damage.

And all non-AOE weapons saw a massive increase in headshot damage from 2x to 3x. And if you really want to make use of that switch your arcanes on non-AOE weapons to Deadhead (which was already a stronger Arcane than Merciless). With even higher headshot multipliers it's hard to not get accidental headshot kills.

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1 hour ago, trst said:

And all non-AOE weapons saw a massive increase in headshot damage from 2x to 3x.

You know, I'd really love to see any would-be marksman out kill any melee or AOE player in a horde shooter like Warframe.  If precision headshots were a valid playstyle, wouldn't we already have seen sniper rifles a lot more outside of Eidolon hunts?  Most of them already give a healthy CC or CD bonus when aimed, so why aren't people using them?

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1 minute ago, MqToasty said:

You know, I'd really love to see any would-be marksman out kill any melee or AOE player in a horde shooter like Warframe.  If precision headshots were a valid playstyle, wouldn't we already have seen sniper rifles a lot more outside of Eidolon hunts?  Most of them already give a healthy CC or CD bonus when aimed, so why aren't people using them?

Why would sniper rifles see use? Pretty much every level appropriate automatic weapon can spray down crowds by keeping your aim around head height. And you don't even need precision to land headshots as most weapons don't have pinpoint spread. Just aiming in the general vicinity of an enemies head or just aiming slightly above center of mass will land you consistent enough headshots at range.

And you won't ever see any single target weapon, be it automatic or a sniper rifle, out kill melee or AOE if they're being used by equally competent players. Which is the entire problem with AOE in that it's so ridiculously more efficient than everything else that it pushes out other options. Even though the difference in efficiency is measured in seconds.

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Bubonico is almost unusable unless you only spam AOE now and I don't like it's AOE but its normal firemode so..... yup, they should at least give us half forma spent on any rebalanced weapon. or a credit purchasable forma strip item at least for limited time.

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8 minutes ago, erethros said:

Bubonico is almost unusable unless you only spam AOE now and I don't like it's AOE but its normal firemode so..... yup, they should at least give us half forma spent on any rebalanced weapon. or a credit purchasable forma strip item at least for limited time.

Bubonico is literally the best AOE for circumventing the ammo nerfs. You launch it's burst into a crowd of enemies then you switch to a secondary AOE or your melee for all of three seconds. Three seconds is literally just throwing a glaive once or twice, meleeing two enemies, or mowing down a hallway with a K.Nukor or any other AOE secondary. All while you've eliminated half your ammo needs while having all drops go to your secondary.

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36 minutes ago, trst said:

Just aiming in the general vicinity of an enemies head or just aiming slightly above center of mass will land you consistent enough headshots at range.

So you would rather spray at an area that is 1/5 the size yet only confers a 3x bonus on hit?  With the new ammo restrictions?  I think I will be sticking to center of mass.

38 minutes ago, trst said:

And you won't ever see any single target weapon, be it automatic or a sniper rifle, out kill melee or AOE if they're being used by equally competent players. Which is the entire problem with AOE in that it's so ridiculously more efficient than everything else that it pushes out other options. Even though the difference in efficiency is measured in seconds.

We are in agreement on this.  Although I have to say that I was able to fairly consistently out kill (but not out damage) Kuva Zarr players in PUGs with my Vermisplicer, up to Sortie-level missions.  At lower (pre-Steel Path) levels, my fire rate and Pax Seeker allowed me to kill swaths of enemies before their cannonballs hit, but whatever they did hit they caused way more damage than I did.

18 minutes ago, trst said:

You launch it's burst into a crowd of enemies then you switch to a secondary AOE or your melee for all of three seconds.

This is the point I've been making.  This update is a nerf against all guns, and we are back to before the gun buff, where guns are best relegated as status primers and you use your melee to finish the job.  I do not mind going back to this playstyle, but wonder what the past year has been about.

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2 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

So you would rather spray at an area that is 1/5 the size yet only confers a 3x bonus on hit?  With the new ammo restrictions?  I think I will be sticking to center of mass.

Ammo restrictions have done nothing for the weapons that didn't see direct nerfs. In fact most are seeing buffs in that they now get more ammo per pickup. And even if you are having ammo issues with non-AOEs Vigilante Supplies is still the best exilus mod for primary weapons and regular ammo mutation for secondaries, which all have bad exilus mods otherwise.

5 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

We are in agreement on this.  Although I have to say that I was able to fairly consistently out kill (but not out damage) Kuva Zarr players in PUGs with my Vermisplicer, up to Sortie-level missions.  At lower (pre-Steel Path) levels, my fire rate and Pax Seeker allowed me to kill swaths of enemies before their cannonballs hit, but whatever they did hit they caused way more damage than I did.

Vermisplicer is an AOE weapon. A primary with it chains into other enemies and the secondary hits up to five enemies at a time. Also the damage dealt is completely irrelevant considering how weak enemies are relative to our damage. So long as you're dealing enough to kill them it doesn't matter if someone else can do several times more.

7 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

This is the point I've been making.  This update is a nerf against all guns, and we are back to before the gun buff, where guns are best relegated as status primers and you use your melee to finish the job.  I do not mind going back to this playstyle, but wonder what the past year has been about.

You've missed my point entirely. You don't need to use them as primers (though that is a valid synergy without melees now thanks to Galvanized mods). Instead you can keep up continuous AOE spam exactly as you could before the ammo nerfs. It's just that now you need to bounce between two different AOE weapons now or between one and your melee.

And as I was saying in that post the Bubonico is the best AOE for avoiding the nerfs. Since you can easily maintain your secondary AOE ammo as you only need to use it for an entire three seconds before the Bubonico can empty out another room. And if you throw a mutation mod on your secondary suddenly every ammo drop is exclusively used for your secondary.

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Um.. Well, I was trying to beat Archon Boreal with Operator and Umbra but Furis can't hold ammo anymore, it has always been sort of hungry and Umbra uses it all in less than 30 seconds, Hema is bugging and reloading 6 shots per reload, and I tried Hirudo but I don't like melee and that means standing in all of the Eximus spam so um..

I just played it on Titania and soloed it fine but yes that was a waste of forma and on weapons that weirdly should not have been nerfed as part of an AoE adjustment.

I do feel like these changes are sort of awful. I like the new content overall but this is a really mixed patch for me when I was expecting it to be a bit better.

I strongly feel like they need to stop with these weird band aid fixes and just directly adjust stuff if they need to adjust it, this is getting awful.

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3 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Um.. Well, I was trying to beat Archon Boreal with Operator and Umbra but Furis can't hold ammo anymore, Hema is bugging and reloading 6 shots per reload, and I tried Hirudo but I don't like melee and that means standing in all of the Eximus spam so um..

I just played it on Titania and soloed it fine but yes that was a waste of forma and on weapons that weirdly should not have been nerfed as part of an AoE adjustment.

I do feel like these changes are sort of awful. I like the new content overall but this is a really mixed patch for me when I was expecting it to be a bit better.

Everything is going to run out of ammo vs Archons (assuming the others are like Boreal) since they spawn so few enemies throughout the fight. Especially with Umbra as he now uses your ammo as well.

But it gives some actual value to ammo restores and anything with a decent enough ammo supply will keep up between the restore cooldown. Also gives more value to Protea's Dispensary and Helminth's Energized Munitions.

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