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How do I think about this update as a Chinese player


Shadow_Freedom

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I'm a Chinese player, I hope to express my views about this update. In fact, my English is not good, so if I make some mistake, forgive me pls

I noticed that a lot of people saying “Chinese player don’t like this update because they can’t AFK use Wukong”. This is a stereotype. U can search my ID in game, u can see my usage of Wukong about 1% and my commonly used weapon is Rubico(use for Eidolon), if u think only like this can I have equal conversations with other players.

I will explain the reasons for the negative reviews of myself. This may also be the view of some Chinese players.

 

1. about Wukong

Yes, use Wukong’s 1 for AFK is common in the Chinese. But...this is also a controversial procedure in Chinese forum. Some people even have “Monkey Discrimination”. But I don't think it's Wukong's fault. There are some reason for the high usage of Wukong. In the early stage of this game, novice players often face problems such as insufficient output, low survival ability, and difficulty in move. Wukong's 1, passive and 2 can solve problems well, he doesn't even need many mods to achieve all this, and his price is cheap(just about 70pl now). So it has become the preferred recommendation of Chinese forum to novice players. He can help players get through their novice period at a low cost.

And then... however, AFK is player’s approach , not warframe’s. If DE nerf or even delete Wukong, AFK players will AFK by use Limbo/Octavia/Wisp or other warframe. If DE can’t find better way to punish AFK players, AFK will exist forever. The existing punishment is easy to evade and reporting is difficult. My advice is: In current mission , other players can vote to kick out AFK players and deduct their reward.

 

2. about AOE

I want to talk about this from my personal experience. Warframe was the first online game I played that dealt with firearms. I love this game, but unfortunately I'm VERY VERY not good at aiming. U have to admit that many people have no talent in this field. A few months ago when I was a novice player, I have tried to use non-AOE weapons for missions(such as Dread because I like Stalker). It was a disaster. The game mode makes me need to face a large number of monsters at one time. I took more than ten minutes to complete a exterminate mission, took longer to carry out a defense mission, and finally failed. My work is busy, I can only play game one  or two hour a day. I want to play more such as Eidolon/Profit-Taker Orb/disrpution lv9999. But I also need to complete daily tasks(such as steel path incursions) . And I need repeat the mission to get resources (such as open relics/get rare mods) for sell.(I need pl to buy riven)

So what I do? I chose to use the powerful AOE weapon to quickly complete these repetitive missions and then move on to what I really wanted to play. You might say: You can use a Warframe with kill skills like Mesa, Saryn. I like these Warframes, I also like Gara, Harrow, Gauss, and a lot of other warframes. But even if I am equipped with the mod I think is most appropriate, it's still hard to do a high level mission (Steel Path) with just Warframe’s skills. The role of weapon remains crucial. Chinese players focus on efficiency, not laziness.

However, if DE think the AOE weapons is too powerful to balance. I agree the nerf , but not make them unusable. And I don't understand their motives: In the lives#163, developers showed a video of a player standing in a doorway and fire with Kuva Zarr, and said it was the "wrong way to play."(I don't know the exact words, this is a Chinese translator's paraphrase) Clearly, this player is not AFK and didn't break any game rules. But DE think it's “wrong”. I have reason to suspect that the developers don’t even play the game they designed. After all, they even have to use cheat codes to fight with Kuva Lich(in a live). They just nerf the weapon based on the play’s usage rate. Think about Furax Wraith.Its riven tendency(I don't know the English word for this, but you know what I mean) was adjusted only because of the use of the Amalgam Furax Body Count, not that it's powerful.

3. about negative comment on Steam

Let me make one point first, comment on steam is an individual choice. Warframe is a niche game in China, we have no reason band together to give negative comment of malice. Every player is a person, an individual. I don't deny that there is a herd mentality, but most people like me have a position. Evaluating a group(said “Chinese player just like AFK”) without knowing it is arrogant and rude.

Why do Chinese player make negative comment? I don't know how people in other countries view this, but for Chinese players, recharging the game means that the game is a commodity. I pay money, which means I have the right to evaluate this commodity, which is the common view of the Chinese people. When I am dissatisfied with the commodity,negative reviews is undoubtedly logical.

Why negative comment on Steam?Thanks to the Chinese Internet firewall, most Chinese people have trouble to use Twitter and Warframe forum. We can't communicate with DE.Maybe Steam is an effective channel.Maybe not it is. (And it's also a little harder to log into Steam now. Thanks to the Internet firewall!!)

Due to the firewall and language barrier, it is usually difficult for you and me to understand each other. Communication between people is sometimes very difficult. But I want you to understand my thoughts, which is the reason why I write this article in English. I used a lot of unfamiliar words. I hope you don't misunderstand me. If you want to say something, please reply me. My English is really not good, the reply may be very slow, but I want to know what players in other countries think.

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4 minutes ago, Shadow_Freedom said:

I don't understand their motives: In the lives#163, developers showed a video of a player standing in a doorway and fire with Kuva Zarr and said it was the "wrong way to play."(I don't know the exact words, this is a Chinese translator's paraphrase) Clearly, this player is not AFK and didn't break any game rules.

So the way you could hide around a doorway and shoot to kill everything makes it very very very easy to make an AFK program or script or macro to do that for you while you leave for an hour and let the game run. What you see is a player shooting around a corner, what is happening is automatic play that looks like a player. That would not be easy to understand with a language barrier so I hope that makes more sense now.

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15 minutes ago, Shadow_Freedom said:

1. about Wukong

Yes, use Wukong’s 1 for AFK is common in the Chinese. But...this is also a controversial procedure in Chinese forum. Some people even have “Monkey Discrimination”. But I don't think it's Wukong's fault. There are some reason for the high usage of Wukong. In the early stage of this game, novice players often face problems such as insufficient output, low survival ability, and difficulty in move. Wukong's 1, passive and 2 can solve problems well, he doesn't even need many mods to achieve all this, and his price is cheap(just about 70pl now). So it has become the preferred recommendation of Chinese forum to novice players. He can help players get through their novice period at a low cost.

And then... however, AFK is player’s approach , not warframe’s. If DE nerf or even delete Wukong, AFK players will AFK by use Limbo/Octavia/Wisp or other warframe. If DE can’t find better way to punish AFK players, AFK will exist forever. The existing punishment is easy to evade and reporting is difficult. My advice is: In current mission , other players can vote to kick out AFK players and deduct their reward.

By-and-large these opinions are almost identical among the English players

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20 minutes ago, Shadow_Freedom said:

If DE nerf or even delete Wukong, AFK players will AFK by use Limbo/Octavia/Wisp or other warframe.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense due to language barriers, but there are different kinds of AFK. There is AFK where you do nothing, and AFK where you do everything. Limbo and Wisp are more like the first type: you can AFK with them, but you won't do anything. Wukong and Octavia are more like the second type: you can AFK with them, and everything around you dies.

Like Drasiel mentions, it also isn't just "I step away and the game does everything". It counts if you can script a way to automate it. Scripts can be really important for people with disabilities, so banning them isn't great either.

It's the second kind a developer can fix. And DE is looking to do that with changes to Wukong and other stuff.

37 minutes ago, Shadow_Freedom said:

My advice is: In current mission , other players can vote to kick out AFK players and deduct their reward.

Consider the "Monkey Discrimination" and what that could do. It could mean someone who wants to play Wukong is vote-to-kicked even if they aren't playing like they are AFK. It's really easy to abuse.

29 minutes ago, Shadow_Freedom said:

I have reason to suspect that the developers don’t even play the game they designed.

There are a number of streams of the directors - Rebecca and Pablo in particular - playing the game.

24 minutes ago, Shadow_Freedom said:

Think about Furax Wraith.Its riven tendency(I don't know the English word for this, but you know what I mean) was adjusted only because of the use of the Amalgam Furax Body Count, not that it's powerful.

Rivens aren't for balancing a weapon. Instead, they were made as a boost for less-used weapons to have a reason to use them. Riven disposition has always been based on use rate for that reason.

I won't say that is a good system, but that is what it is.

And no worries about not knowing the English word for that. I can think of a few English speakers who don't know that word either. And I live under a rock.

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38分钟前 , Drasiel 说:

So the way you could hide around a doorway and shoot to kill everything makes it very very very easy to make an AFK program or script or macro to do that for you while you leave for an hour and let the game run. What you see is a player shooting around a corner, what is happening is automatic play that looks like a player. That would not be easy to understand with a language barrier so I hope that makes more sense now.

Thank you for your reply. I know what you mean and I've thought about it. The weapon used in the video is Kuva Zarr, this weapon is not suitable for AFK. Because even without nerf, It still doesn't have enough bullets. If u use Kuva Zarr and program or script or macro to AFK, it's going to be complicated. I think common AOE weapons(such as Zarr and Bramma) are not directly related to AFK. It would be more convincing if the weapon in the video was Shedu. However, DE is very strict in check cheat program. AFK players who use cheat program should be punished, not weapons.
One more thing to add, high usage of Kuva Ogris is cause a gameplay summarized by Chinese forum. We use Sryan and Wisp and Kuva Ogris for arbitration. Players will kill thousands of monsters in an hour. Evidently, it has nothing to do with AFK. But Kuva Ogris still be nerf severely.

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51分钟前 , Shadow_Freedom 说:

I have reason to suspect that the developers don’t even play the game they designed.

The developers that don't play the game they designed have moved on to make soulframe. Reb and Pablo are in charge and are making Warframe great again.

Listen. AoE and Wukong are not "nerfed", OK? Your AoE weapon stat remained unchanged. Your k. bramma still do 100k damage with 150% crit chance. Only changes to AoE are ammo (easily solved), blast radius (only if you use p. firestorm. Still strong after changes), and headshot multiplier. Only changes to Wukong is damage (50%, but you can left click and mark enemy, right?) and ammo utilization (again, easily solved). 

These changes are extremely mild compared to melee nerf and glaive nerf. If these changes are enough to trigger people review bomb en masse and try to steer the game according to their childish demand, those people should not be playing video games at all.

And I do not specify the ethnicity because I don't care where you come from. Reviews from any childish, unreasonable people / players going temper tantrum are always pointless.

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57分钟前 , Tyreaus 说:

Sorry if this doesn't make sense due to language barriers, but there are different kinds of AFK. There is AFK where you do nothing, and AFK where you do everything. Limbo and Wisp are more like the first type: you can AFK with them, but you won't do anything. Wukong and Octavia are more like the second type: you can AFK with them, and everything around you dies.

Like Drasiel mentions, it also isn't just "I step away and the game does everything". It counts if you can script a way to automate it. Scripts can be really important for people with disabilities, so banning them isn't great either.

It's the second kind a developer can fix. And DE is looking to do that with changes to Wukong and other stuff.

Consider the "Monkey Discrimination" and what that could do. It could mean someone who wants to play Wukong is vote-to-kicked even if they aren't playing like they are AFK. It's really easy to abuse.

There are a number of streams of the directors - Rebecca and Pablo in particular - playing the game.

Rivens aren't for balancing a weapon. Instead, they were made as a boost for less-used weapons to have a reason to use them. Riven disposition has always been based on use rate for that reason.

I won't say that is a good system, but that is what it is.

And no worries about not knowing the English word for that. I can think of a few English speakers who don't know that word either. And I live under a rock.

Sry I don't know how to use quote in this forum, so I just put reply in a paragraph.

I can't comment Wukongs ability of AFK. As I said, I don't use it often. I just don't hope Wukong to be associated with AFK, then make some people biased against Chinese player. I saw some of this on Twitter and Steam.

I understand your concern about the misuse of the voting function, I'm under the impression that some online games like FF14 also have this function. How to use function depend on the players. Of course, this is just my personal advice.

In fact, the developers dont even play the game they designed is a joke in Chinese forum. I heard in latest live, they are hard to Subdue Archon. As I said before, most Chinese players like efficiency. Kill the boss just take a few minutes. When we see developers suffering we think it was funny. How do u think about them use cheat codes to fight with Kuva Lich?

Finally, about Furax Wraith... I'm sad for what happened to it.

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1 hour ago, Shadow_Freedom said:

Thank you for your reply. I know what you mean and I've thought about it. The weapon used in the video is Kuva Zarr, this weapon is not suitable for AFK. Because even without nerf, It still doesn't have enough bullets. If u use Kuva Zarr and program or script or macro to AFK, it's going to be complicated. I think common AOE weapons(such as Zarr and Bramma) are not directly related to AFK. It would be more convincing if the weapon in the video was Shedu. However, DE is very strict in check cheat program. AFK players who use cheat program should be punished, not weapons.

This is why people paired the kuva zarr with wukong. Wukong's twin (previously) had infinite ammo with zarr and could reload it completely with one shell. That was the afk strat, give wukong twin kuva zarr, go afk and the twin kills everything indefinitely.

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1小时前 , RichardKam 说:

The developers that don't play the game they designed have moved on to make soulframe. Reb and Pablo are in charge and are making Warframe great again.

Listen. AoE and Wukong are not "nerfed", OK? Your AoE weapon stat remained unchanged. Your k. bramma still do 100k damage with 150% crit chance. Only changes to AoE are ammo (easily solved), blast radius (only if you use p. firestorm. Still strong after changes), and headshot multiplier. Only changes to Wukong is damage (50%, but you can left click and mark enemy, right?) and ammo utilization (again, easily solved). 

These changes are extremely mild compared to melee nerf and glaive nerf. If these changes are enough to trigger people review bomb en masse and try to steer the game according to their childish demand, those people should not be playing video games at all.

And I do not specify the ethnicity because I don't care where you come from. Reviews from any childish, unreasonable people / players going temper tantrum are always pointless.

Why do u think the changes of ammo is not nerf? Admittedly, I can solved this problem used mods like Ammo Drum, but it still affects my damage because i just can put 8/9 mods on them. If i don't do that, I'm gonna use all the ammos in a few seconds. Then there's nothing I can do. Bramma is just Ok, the effect of Zara and Ogris was dramatic. All right, I put it anthor way. DE didn't "nerf" AOE weapon. They just keep player from use AOE weapon. Why are they teaching me how to play games?

Ever doesn't mean forever. Players can't tolerate DE forever. So negative reviews come up. That's all.

Maybe u are no racial discrimination. But it's obvious u are prejudiced against Whkong and AOE weapon user. I posting use my non-native language try to express my views because I hope to communicate with more people. In your opinion, this is childish, unreasonable? OK, I will not reply to you again.

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26分钟前 , Shadow_Freedom 说:

Why do u think the changes of ammo is not nerf? Admittedly, I can solved this problem used mods like Ammo Drum, but it still affects my damage because i just can put 8/9 mods on them. If i don't do that, I'm gonna use all the ammos in a few seconds. Then there's nothing I can do. Bramma is just Ok, the effect of Zara and Ogris was dramatic. All right, I put it anthor way. DE didn't "nerf" AOE weapon. They just keep player from use AOE weapon. Why are they teaching me how to play games?

Ever doesn't mean forever. Players can't tolerate DE forever. So negative reviews come up. That's all.

Maybe u are no racial discrimination. But it's obvious u are prejudiced against Whkong and AOE weapon user. I posting use my non-native language try to express my views because I hope to communicate with more people. In your opinion, this is childish, unreasonable? OK, I will not reply to you again.

The changes are targeting exactly this kind of attitude, you know? 

1. No one is teaching you how to play the game. No one is keeping you from using AoE. Try not to victimize yourself. Tons of people have said repeatedly that AoE is doing fine as long as you spend 2 minutes to adapt to the changes. Yes, the game is changing. Surprise? 

2. Those are not negative reviews. Those are temper tantrum with no meaningful feedback. 

3. Because 99% of Monkey players have > 60% usage on Monkey prime, k. zarr/k. bramma, and glaive prime with nothing else. It is a matter of fact that most of them don't know how to play this game without Monkey and AoE. As such I cannot seriously consider them "players", and their opinion or demand are usually not based on experiences or facts. 

4. Even if it is based on experiences or facts, discussion should be objective and civil. Look at your own words. I don't care if English is your first language, but to me, you are threatening DE, "such nerf will not be tolerated", and a disagreement in one single exchange of comment is sufficient for you to stop the entire discussion. 

Tell me how can people take you seriously? How can DE listen to you if all you want is just an echo chamber? 

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5 hours ago, Drasiel said:

So the way you could hide around a doorway and shoot to kill everything makes it very very very easy to make an AFK program or script or macro to do that for you while you leave for an hour and let the game run. What you see is a player shooting around a corner, what is happening is automatic play that looks like a player. That would not be easy to understand with a language barrier so I hope that makes more sense now.

yeah but doesnt mean everyone is doing that . then nerf all the warframe that does it and nerf all S and A tier frame if the reason to nerf wukong was that he is OP. Do that and it will prove that u guys were true to ur word

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2 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

So if it isn't efficient, it is lazy

yikes!

wow how smart  are. Well efficiency as  in the need to farm in first place.How do u farm we know that the best way to farm in couch  potato style if they wanted to fix the game they would have reworked the game. The game is now getting heavily focused on looting, the loot also seems to be reduced with the new update. I doubt if people will not try to get into automation. As people now lack mods to match the stronger enemies they throw at u it leaves u with even more time for same amount of loot and the need for loot due to the need for stronger weapons. Its not the warframes that need the nerf sorry , they need reworks not to be turned into garbage cans.

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You still can shot from your bow, make some melee kill and replenish ammo… Like game really didn’t change at all, it’s gameplan got changed - “stand in pipe and shot towards entrance”. 

People wouldn’t be so toxic if it was just a game. No-no, it’s job for them, and now their job is nerfed?! CREES! The reasons why degenerates in Valve never fix broken heroes in Dota - it’s job for some players. Valve fine with it. Players fine with. Game meant for degenerates. Everyone is ok with it.

I’m glad Warframe doesn’t want to be such game. Warframe wants you to just play for chill and enjoy the game. If you can’t - go play other game or make exercises. I’m playing from 2014 and I barely have 3000 hours, so I’m still enjoying tge game a lot.

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4小时前 , SpiritTeA 说:

You still can shot from your bow, make some melee kill and replenish ammo… Like game really didn’t change at all, it’s gameplan got changed - “stand in pipe and shot towards entrance”. 

People wouldn’t be so toxic if it was just a game. No-no, it’s job for them, and now their job is nerfed?! CREES! The reasons why degenerates in Valve never fix broken heroes in Dota - it’s job for some players. Valve fine with it. Players fine with. Game meant for degenerates. Everyone is ok with it.

I’m glad Warframe doesn’t want to be such game. Warframe wants you to just play for chill and enjoy the game. If you can’t - go play other game or make exercises. I’m playing from 2014 and I barely have 3000 hours, so I’m still enjoying tge game a lot.

I agree with you up to a point. But when u in a group, it's hard to avoid assimilate.  Chinese life style have influenced our game style. I think this difference in the game style also make difficult for players from different countries to understand each other. But I think it's not right or wrong.

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It's hard to imagine that at this time, there are still people who can't understand the status quo.

Why do so many people hate this update? Why are there so many bad reviews on steam? Classify these people as Chinese players? Blame these things on the meaningless emotional venting of players?

What a simple and beautiful reason! This reminds me of a character in Chinese books, Mr. Q. He was beaten by others, and then thought it was his body that beat others, so he won. It is foolish to ignore the facts and be paralyzed.

First of all, can we face up to the current problems?

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Ifeanyi:

This is why people paired the kuva zarr with wukong. Wukong's twin (previously) had infinite ammo with zarr and could reload it completely with one shell. That was the afk strat, give wukong twin kuva zarr, go afk and the twin kills everything indefinitely.

in which mission? are there such blatant rewards there? and a pub game is a waste of time?
normal or sp?
From which mastery rank and hours in the game is it most worthwhile?
heard anything about logs? everything you do in the game is there. a bot is very happy to read it and bans naive wannabes instantly.

you don't have to answer. because something sensible as an answer can NOT come at all.

Shaking-Head-Breaking-Bad.gif

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Frankly, I believe for the developers at DE, they have a vision of this game.Previously for Steve and Co., now headed by Reb, they all have their thoughts and what they want for this game. Player feedback might influence some of their decisions, but at the end of the day they are basically artists: make an art that is in the form of a game, for people to enjoy, and make money off of it.

Of course with Tencent and their shareholders etc. they have some pressure to keep Warframe profitable, or not as long as their company is profitable. But Warframe as a game it is still just like a piece of art, the creators have the right to do whatever they want, and you can choose to enjoy it or not.

Although you have spent money on platinum and cosmetics etc, but you already get what you paid for from it, none of the packs you paid for promised anything aside from the stuff you get.

So if DE wants to make this game where you need to take cover, headshot enemies, and takes a bit longer to finish this mission, it is their decision. However this nerf is not nearly that bad. I have been having fun in steel path fissure finishing them within 2 mins or so using Mirage, Energized munitions and Bramma, I can easily keep up with the ammo demand and I was basically shooting the Bramma non-stop just like I was before the update. It was just fine. You just need to specialized your setups a little bit more.

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10 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

in which mission? are there such blatant rewards there? and a pub game is a waste of time?
normal or sp?
From which mastery rank and hours in the game is it most worthwhile?
heard anything about logs? everything you do in the game is there. a bot is very happy to read it and bans naive wannabes instantly.

1. survival, shown on devstream, can't afk in a pub no movement cancels your rewards

2. sp

3. yes

4. check warframe frame and weapon usage stats which are published every year. Maybe visit Pablo's twitter

5. I'm not event an advocate for the nerfs, was merely giving an explanation to his zarr bullets statement so drop your pitchfork

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8 hours ago, Shadow_Freedom said:

Why do u think the changes of ammo is not nerf? Admittedly, I can solved this problem used mods like Ammo Drum, but it still affects my damage because i just can put 8/9 mods on them.

I mean ... Mutators/Ammo Drum are exilus slot. How much damage are you actually losing?

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Ifeanyi:

1. survival, shown on devstream, can't afk in a pub no movement cancels your rewards

2. sp

3. yes

4. check warframe frame and weapon usage stats which are published every year. Maybe visit Pablo's twitter

5. I'm not event an advocate for the nerfs, was merely giving an explanation to his zarr bullets statement so drop your pitchfork

my mood keeps getting better. it is best to read such answers after the working day.

risa-risitas.gif

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13 hours ago, Shadow_Freedom said:

Thank you for your reply. I know what you mean and I've thought about it. The weapon used in the video is Kuva Zarr, this weapon is not suitable for AFK. Because even without nerf, It still doesn't have enough bullets. If u use Kuva Zarr and program or script or macro to AFK, it's going to be complicated. I think common AOE weapons(such as Zarr and Bramma) are not directly related to AFK. It would be more convincing if the weapon in the video was Shedu. However, DE is very strict in check cheat program. AFK players who use cheat program should be punished, not weapons.
One more thing to add, high usage of Kuva Ogris is cause a gameplay summarized by Chinese forum. We use Sryan and Wisp and Kuva Ogris for arbitration. Players will kill thousands of monsters in an hour. Evidently, it has nothing to do with AFK. But Kuva Ogris still be nerf severely.

while battery weapons like shedu do make it easier you can absolutely automate zarr and bramma, especially if you used wukong before the current changes. Celestial Twin (the clone) didn't require ammo, so as long as you made the character move a little every once in a while he could shoot forever. Outside of the clone you can set up a system where you drop an ammo restore every once in a while and regain ammo on top of installing ammo mutation and be within close range of the enemies to pickup ammo with vacuum.

De is very strict with cheat programs but you don't need to use a cheat program to automate play. I am disabled so I use macros with the driver software of my mouse and keyboard, software I need to have so my mouse and keyboard actually work at all, to make it possible to use certain weapons (make it so hold left mouse button fires continuously for non automatic weapons) Some people use macros to bind crouch and jump to a single button so that they can have a one click option for bullet jump. I could very easily make a macro using that software to make the exact kind of situation in that video (obviously I'm not going to because I like my account and don't want to be banned) and make it so that every minute, or however long I chose I could drop an ammo restore. Banning the software that can do that would also prevent a lot of users from using their keyboard and mouse properly especially if they are gaming keyboards and mice so there isn't an easy to solution for that aside from making it harder to automate that kind of play. Making wukong's clone use ammo removes one super easy path to automation, reducing how much ammo weapons hold and regain is another.

Kuva ogris is an interesting issue, it's high usage at least on our side of the ocean seems to come down to nightwatch napalm which lets you make stacks of lingering damage in an area. It could also be automated using wukong's clone.

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