Jump to content
Jade Shadows: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

My thoughts on veilbreaker and its update


mega_lova_nia

Recommended Posts

Oh boy, where do i begin

Let's start from the positives

  • Veilbreaker : I LOVED Kahl when he first came out so when i know that Veilbreaker is going to introduce more kahl game play, i was STOKED. Turns out, my expectations were blown away. We don't just get Kahl gameplay, we get Star Wars : Republic Commando gameplay, which is a game praised for its tactical mechanics. I can't wait to see how DE can expand on this mechanic, perhaps making it more immersive by introducing more commands and more classes, that is if DE decided to expand a bit more on this mechanic. It still needs a bit of tweaking though like a faster delay time and a more snappier or streamlined transition between command mode and combat mode. All in all, i can't wait to see what kind of levels this gamemode brings. Also, perhaps could we have some sort of training grounds for kahl to goof around or to actually train? That would be a neat addition i think.
    • Another question in mind is whether this mechanic would be perfect to be implemented in clan raids. Oh how i would love to witness the old glory of clan raids and i think this mechanic is what the game mode needs to make the competition more skill based
  • Archon Hunt : It's super hard, but to see that DE implemented other buffs for enemies in a sortie is a welcome sight. I hope that they won't use the health and armor buff too often though. I wouldn't mind if enemies would have certain weapon element buff or self buffs like speed and attack boosts. I also don't mind it's weekly interval knowing how much of a challenge archon hunts are. It gives more oomph and value to the sortie, although i think to have archon hunts pump out three times the sortie rewards would further increase its value and differentiate it from the typical daily sortie that we had. The downside that i still see is that DE never bothered to increase the health or damage resistant of escort units or things that needs to be defended, the same problem that is present in steel path too. Please please PLEASE fix this problem to make it a fair challenge.

And now, for the big negative

This update is another content island and seeing how DE works where they jump from island to island and never bother to revisit old islands worries me. So please prove to us that this cabinet of workers would be better and pay more attention to fan feedback. Also, please consider to revisit old mechanics and game modes. We still have railjack being the biggest offender, despite the rewards and gamemodes that are offered, railjack still feels detached from the game, which is a shame because it is fun to play. In the end, content islands are generally bad for a live service game except when executed and refined properly, so please DE, we're counting on you to pay more attention to refine and perhaps expand new content and perhaps to revisit old content and make this game more whole and holistic.

Kudos to you DE, and good luck in your future endeavors!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, mega_lova_nia said:

Oh boy, where do i begin

Let's start from the positives

  • Veilbreaker : I LOVED Kahl when he first came out so when i know that Veilbreaker is going to introduce more kahl game play, i was STOKED. Turns out, my expectations were blown away. We don't just get Kahl gameplay, we get Star Wars : Republic Commando gameplay, which is a game praised for its tactical mechanics. I can't wait to see how DE can expand on this mechanic, perhaps making it more immersive by introducing more commands and more classes, that is if DE decided to expand a bit more on this mechanic. It still needs a bit of tweaking though like a faster delay time and a more snappier or streamlined transition between command mode and combat mode. All in all, i can't wait to see what kind of levels this gamemode brings. Also, perhaps could we have some sort of training grounds for kahl to goof around or to actually train? That would be a neat addition i think.
    • Another question in mind is whether this mechanic would be perfect to be implemented in clan raids. Oh how i would love to witness the old glory of clan raids and i think this mechanic is what the game mode needs to make the competition more skill based
  • Archon Hunt : It's super hard, but to see that DE implemented other buffs for enemies in a sortie is a welcome sight. I hope that they won't use the health and armor buff too often though. I wouldn't mind if enemies would have certain weapon element buff or self buffs like speed and attack boosts. I also don't mind it's weekly interval knowing how much of a challenge archon hunts are. It gives more oomph and value to the sortie, although i think to have archon hunts pump out three times the sortie rewards would further increase its value and differentiate it from the typical daily sortie that we had. The downside that i still see is that DE never bothered to increase the health or damage resistant of escort units or things that needs to be defended, the same problem that is present in steel path too. Please please PLEASE fix this problem to make it a fair challenge.

And now, for the big negative

This update is another content island and seeing how DE works where they jump from island to island and never bother to revisit old islands worries me. So please prove to us that this cabinet of workers would be better and pay more attention to fan feedback. Also, please consider to revisit old mechanics and game modes. We still have railjack being the biggest offender, despite the rewards and gamemodes that are offered, railjack still feels detached from the game, which is a shame because it is fun to play. In the end, content islands are generally bad for a live service game except when executed and refined properly, so please DE, we're counting on you to pay more attention to refine and perhaps expand new content and perhaps to revisit old content and make this game more whole and holistic.

Kudos to you DE, and good luck in your future endeavors!

I find it difficult to analyze an update that hasn't even been released completely, half of the content has not yet been made available.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

I don't understand, are you saying that content that hasn't even been released is already bad? Isn't that being at least hasty?

Uhhh... I think that was an expression. A figure of speech.

You know, like "Jumping the gun"? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, so far the QoL changes have been awesome. If we get these kind of QoL updates on future releases too I'll be very happy, it's making the game better in ways I really feel.

I like the Archon hunt difficulty a lot, I only worry that there will soon be tactics to trivialize it. I was actually hoping it would last all week - like it would be something to chip away at all week long with a boss at the end, but it's just a once a week sortie thing :( so I'm a little disappointed there .

I'm tired of content islands, to the point where I'm only kinda excited for Duviri and also kinda dreading the inevitable island it will become, but idk if i'd classify the Archon hunts as content islands really. Kahl? Yes, he's a content island, so far anyway. They seem to be pumping a lot of resources into Kahl. I'm curious to see where it goes, and I don't mind a diversion from the usual grind, but if he gets abandoned instead of continuously improved (and integrated) then he'll go the way of RJ.

Definitely hope the QoL focus starts extending to old content and old frames too though, however much they say they don't care about them we need them improved.

I'm kinda meh on the SP fissures - they're better than the old ones, at any rate. We'll really see how well they fare on the next relic rotation I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, mega_lova_nia said:

This update is another content island

How are we defining "content island" though?

- Velbreaker is a direct follow-up to TNW.

- It follows-up on characters (Kahl) and mechanics (Veso squad orders) from TNW.

- Archun hunts expand on enemies factions from TNW (Narmer).

- Veilbreaker ties directly to Deimos in both characters (Daughter) and mechanics (Helminth).

So how are we defining content island considering I see this update being directly related to previous updates both mechanically and in lore? It builds up upon established gameplay scenarios and characters and it's not disconnected from anything we've seen before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, mega_lova_nia said:

This update is another content island and seeing how DE works where they jump from island to island and never bother to revisit old islands worries me

I'm starting to think that this "content island" crap is overused. What makes it "content island"? Because you can grind once and not coming back again? DE can always go full bungie on that if you want, putting stupid limits on your inventory like their shards and cores to make you play old content again. Maybe holding only 5k nano spores while a large restore requiring 2.5k to make sounds good to you to make you go back to deimos or eris?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I'm starting to think that this "content island" crap is overused. What makes it "content island"? Because you can grind once and not coming back again? DE can always go full bungie on that if you want, putting stupid limits on your inventory like their shards and cores to make you play old content again. Maybe holding only 5k nano spores while a large restore requiring 2.5k to make sounds good to you to make you go back to deimos or eris?

Alright buckle up i'm goin' postal on this island-ish, for no reason and in a comment instead of the thread it probably deserves... (psh, doesn't  matter, nobody sees this sh*t)...

It actually gets pretty deep when you sit down and think about it, like what is a content island? And more importantly, how do you solve it? I don't think content islands are bad in and of themselves, it's just that WF has made them their core content. For me, it's yes- stuff that I grind and never have any reason to return to. I'm gonna grind Duviri, and once it's done, probably not come back to it except when there's some reason to, same as Deimos, same as Fortuna, same as Cetus. Railjack probably also falls into this category, along with a bunch of other stuff.

The solution, I think, is two-fold or three-fold.

First: make what you do somewhere matter everywhere. This is two-edged though: if you dilute it too much, for example if you made it so that Cetus minerals or debt bonds or toroids or any cetus-thing is universally necessary for stuff-elsewhere... if you do that too much you make it so that nothing's unique and you have to grind everything. TBH, I think WF does a fair job in this regard, although it could be a bit better. For example, look at operator gear... I think what they've done here is actually really good and should probably be the model; you can grind it in cetus and in fortuna and to some extent elsewhere - it's spread beyond the original eidolon. BUT there's still some uniqueness to it. The credit is shared, a bit, but the rewards are diversified depending on who you visit.

On a larger scale but in this same vein, we have a f*ckton of stuff in our inventory. Making this matter in any way was for a long time was impossible, but the helminth system really is a salvation in this regard, it kinda makes it matter for something. Imagine WF without helminth - yeah, then content islands really rear their heads. Shards will be an additional hit in this way, although lesser. I think we probably want even more stuff like this, that uses our collection, that rewards us for hoarding all this sh*t. So on the larger scale, we DO want systems that share resources, but on the smaller (more local) scale, less so - like we want what we do in Cetus to matter to Cetus, otherwise, screw it; bruh then we farm w/e we want to wherever we want to and we don't have to care about any island, because everything is universally valuable :  I don't think that's a good end solution.

Still, like I said, WF could do a lot more to integrate it's systems and it's currencies in particular. Everytime there's a new release: new unconnected currency. Whether that's syndicate related like Deimos' family credit or Loid's mineral credit (if you think about it there are like 5 or 6 sub-currencies on Deimos, omg), or on to Zariman with quills and pinions and credit. Having SOME cross-value makes us feel good about dong content in general. Like, for example yo, when we grind steel path stuff, it doesn't matter where we do it, it's universally valuable, but if we do a Deimos bounty, where is that valuable? Yeah. Deimos only. If you do a Zariman bounty and gather a bunch of stuff - where is that valuable? Yeah, Zariman only, Etc Etc Etc Etc.

So you can make this stuff valuable outside of the island, TRUE, like they did for operators, but you definitely do have to be careful about how you do it, otherwise nothing is special. Why is it bad if nothing is special though? Well, because of our constant enemy: boredom. Imagine if toroids could be used to build everything everywhere, or thrax plasm could be used for everything - suddenly you're only farming one thing all the time and you have massive sooner-than-usual burnout.

The second part of the content-island solution, as I see it anyway, is conversion. This is pretty limited in WF at current, and I think it's a powerful tool that could be leveraged here more, and even better - it benefits both players and developers. Imagine if you could convert materials into other materials, like if you could convert toroids into eidolon shards, or steel essence into quills? That's cross island trade, that's what that is. And the key here is that it's not equal: you sacrifice your plenty to purchase the rare, and just like in foreign exchange, there's a tax on that. So it's good for the devs because it creates long term passive inventory reduction, and it's good for the player because it converts unwanted goods into wanted ones.

It's bad in a couple ways too though. First of all, release: if this type of conversion is available on release, pshhhh, everyone will convert their inventory to the newly released goodness. This is still good for inventory reduction in the long-haul, but bad for the release in general, because it circumvents farming. Secondly, it has a super long term effect (depending on it's exact implementation) of equalizing all economies. If all economies can be traded, then eventually they will all equalize (this isn't true in the real world where economies are dynamic, but it is true in pretty much all video games where economies are static [something like EVE would be the exception]).

---------------------

So, in conclusion, we'd probably want to make island economies universally valuable, but on a double scale: unique and (prohibitively) un-convertable on-release, and secondly with a long-standing conversion tax afterwards. Making different tax conversion scales across islands would also be extremely smart here, but I shan't delve into that now.

There are other ways of integrating and globalizing islands, without sacrificing their identity or intrinsic value as well.

In this regard, just briefly, look at necramechs. They are universally valuable (well, heh, not quite, but they are a key component of WF now) - but WHERE do you get them? Deimos is necramech central. This is awesome, and a great way of helping islands, imo. Making something that is useful everywhere available only one place accomplishes so much. it retains it's intrinsic value and the farm to get it, but it also trades it across the world, but even so doesn't even lower it's value OR the value of anything else - it completely avoids all the tax nonsense. SO good!

Imagine if archwings were only available on Cetus or something? That'd be great! We'd have hub to specifically grind, but we wouldn't mind, because it would be good everywhere. Look at Deimos vulpas too. Painful island-specific grind - but totally worth it in the larger context, because they go with us everywhere.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2022-09-10 at 12:09 PM, CrownOfShadows said:

In this regard, just briefly, look at necramechs. They are universally valuable (well, heh, not quite, but they are a key component of WF now) - but WHERE do you get them? Deimos is necramech central. This is awesome, and a great way of helping islands, imo. Making something that is useful everywhere available only one place accomplishes so much. it retains it's intrinsic value and the farm to get it, but it also trades it across the world, but even so doesn't even lower it's value OR the value of anything else - it completely avoids all the tax nonsense. SO good!

Imagine if archwings were only available on Cetus or something? That'd be great! We'd have hub to specifically grind, but we wouldn't mind, because it would be good everywhere. Look at Deimos vulpas too. Painful island-specific grind - but totally worth it in the larger context, because they go with us everywhere.

But do they make you come back once you get them? I believe the answer is no since you obtained them already and it would still being dismissed as island because "there's no reason to go back"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2022-09-09 at 2:07 PM, RafMatador22 said:

I find it difficult to analyze an update that hasn't even been released completely, half of the content has not yet been made available.

^This.

On 2022-09-09 at 2:01 PM, mega_lova_nia said:

This update is another content island and seeing how DE works where they jump from island to island and never bother to revisit old islands worries me. So please prove to us that this cabinet of workers would be better and pay more attention to fan feedback. Also, please consider to revisit old mechanics and game modes. We still have railjack being the biggest offender, despite the rewards and gamemodes that are offered, railjack still feels detached from the game, which is a shame because it is fun to play. In the end, content islands are generally bad for a live service game except when executed and refined properly, so please DE, we're counting on you to pay more attention to refine and perhaps expand new content and perhaps to revisit old content and make this game more whole and holistic.

That aside the OP does have a very good point. Quality > Quantity. I would LOVE to see old factions/content islands revisited and more integrated into the world--especially the Syndicates. It pains me for example that the Zariman--THE Zariman--has returned, and yet the Arbiters of Hexis are sleeping on it. Sorry, but they of all factions wouldn't be. Same for the mystic side of the Red Veil (Palladino) lol. It huuuuuuurts!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

But do they make you come back once you get them? I believe the answer is no since you obtained them already and it would still being dismissed as island because "there's no reason to go back"

Yeah this is true. It helps a bit, but still doesn't overcome this basic island quality

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Island content has always been a problem with Warframe, and it's something that some people find off putting about the game.

All of this one shot finish and never go back content.

I thought the plan was to have Rail Jack somehow link the various parts of Warframe together somehow?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Yeah this is true. It helps a bit, but still doesn't overcome this basic island quality

Because with this statement, every single game out there consists of content islands that you don't visit anymore once you're done getting everything from it and I find it ridiculous how people say this crap but they don't see it on other games

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

Island content has always been a problem with Warframe, and it's something that some people find off putting about the game.

All of this one shot finish and never go back content.

I thought the plan was to have Rail Jack somehow link the various parts of Warframe together somehow?

I always come back to play old content. Especially Railjack. Love to give my ship good ride in a while. Always can farm Pennant blueprints to help some new players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Now, are you still visiting those old areas in the other games you play? Because this "content island" crap is overused to bash Warframe when other games are also like this

No, I use this term to talk about any game that uses Island content, Warframe isn't special in the fact that it's developers simply throw reskinned versions of the same thing at us over and over again. Most games do that at one time or another. The difference is that Warframe does it more than most.

I'm not saying that they're not trying. PoE and Orb Vallis are as close to copy/paste as you can get. there are differences in mechanics here and there, but the two regions are pretty much interchangeable with each other. Empyrean came next and it completely separate from anything else in the game, Cambion Drift differs in its use of Infested which have their own rule set that doesn't follow the Grineer or Corpus, it also introduced the first "immune" opponents. Angels of the Zariman cut things down to basics, as it did away with the open world element and concentrated simply on the missions required to rank up that islands syndicate. Now we have Veilbreaker, which appears to be copying the mould that Angels was cast in.

Each one of these updates is totally separate from the others, the game play of most of them is the same but they each have their own unique set of resources that you require to engage with anything that you can purchase in that region. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single recipe from one of the later updates that requires something from one of the previous (I may be wrong about this) This is what I mean by island content. Each is separated from the others by their very nature and does not require anything from them.

For example, you can totally ignore PoE and it won't prevent you from playing the game, all you miss is that content.

The only island content in the game you actually need so far is Empyrean and Cambion Drift as you need access to both a Railjack and a Necromech in order to play New War.

But, thinking about it, you can totally skip those islands simply by buying the things you need in game for plat.

I'm hoping that the switch to a new development team is going to change this, and as Veilbreaker is only their first real attempt I can understand why they're sticking to what's worked in the past. 

I'm just hoping for more variety in the future.

Here's to change, and may it come soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2022-09-09 at 8:01 AM, mega_lova_nia said:

This update is another content island

Its a weekly Sortie with a meaningful, end game reward that players should care about. I mean we don't really know how significant it really means because we don't have a full set of Archon Shards applied to our warframe's yet. But Archon fights gives Veterans a reason to sign in every week to grab the shard's then to just finish Nightwave. Which is a great idea. The sortie itself? Not ground-breaking by any means but bringing Archons into the main star-chart is a great idea.

In actuality it's probably the least "Content Island" content they've put out in quite some time. Plus the fact that it's tied into Helminth make's it even less then that. Plus its the follow up to The New War and answering some of the questions relating to the Narmer. So how are we defining content island considering I see this update being directly related to previous updates both mechanically and in lore? It builds up upon established gameplay scenarios and characters and it's not disconnected from anything we've seen before that already exists. This section of the update is not a content island.

Now if your relating this to Kahl's gameplay: 

Then yeah, high likely its some kind of content island but is that a bad thing? I don't see any issues having a Kahl component existing in this way. It honestly should. But also from what I understand Kahl's gameplay also has an Archon Shard component to it, as they did say we can earn potentially 2 Shards a week (Probably a drop chance, not guaranteed like in Archon Fights). So this is not a bad thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Calling this a content island is a huge stretch, if not just flat out incorrect.

Its weekly, repeatable content that adds an end game grind to the very core of the game, that being our warframes. Which is more that can be said about all the open worlds, and Railjack, where you complete all the content then forget about it.

Even when it comes to the Khal missions, they wont be something where we rank up his reputation then forget about him, because hes going to offer us shards every week, and the shards are something pretty much every player will be wanting to get as many as they can for the next forever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, IggySnow said:

Calling this a content island is a huge stretch, if not just flat out incorrect.

Remember, there is still the duviri paradox and seeing the pattern of how DE adds content to this game, might as well call it one because of the eventuality of abandonment unless DE is now more inclined to hear to fan feedback.

14 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Because this "content island" crap is overused to bash Warframe when other games are also like this

While i do believe that there are games that do content islands well, Warframe isn't one them, or at least what i and the majority think when talking about this. DE is known for its habit of post now fix later or post now revisit never, despite loads of fan feedback, and this has left a bad taste in the playerbases' mouth. Veilbreaker is the first ever update done under Reb's wings, so better now than never to warn them about the habit while it's still early.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, mega_lova_nia said:

While i do believe that there are games that do content islands well, Warframe isn't one them, or at least what i and the majority think when talking about this. DE is known for its habit of post now fix later or post now revisit never,

And other games do this? Release content and never touch it again because you'll never visit them again or worse, removing them because "the game gets too big and the content sees little traffic to stay"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...