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Veilbreaker: Launch & Hot Topics


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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yep, also don't want 15 second fights, so onward we quest to solve the million damage excitement vs. bosses.

LR2 Here and it took me near 20mins to solo this fight. I didnt want break the fight on purpose, it was fun but stressful (which I enjoy). I recommend Reducing the effectiveness of status effects on the archons by the same damage attenuation. IE perhaps a bleed that did 50k before should only be doing 5 now. Maybe also the way the Hemocyte has health gating so he cant take more than a certain ammount of hp in one attack no matter how strong it is.  I know that this would make the fight harder but some of us want that and dont want nerfs to our weapons to compensate.

Also, side bar. I find it funny that chroma now and in the past is the example for when these kinds of things happen

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

If we increase their health so Glaives don't one-shot them, they become near unkillable with other weapons.

Eidolons and Profit Taker are successful boss fights in large part because amps and archguns are their own closed systems that don't overlap with the broader arsenal of weapons and frame abilities. Why not continue to use those systems since they can be balanced without disrupting the rest of our arsenal. You could even isolate them further by disabling interactions they have with Volt's shield and frame buffs like Vex Armor, Eclipse, Toxic Lash, etc. and it would still feel like a step forward because the current damage attenuation situation is a massive negative for every player in the game, veteran and newbie alike.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You'd need 10x more throws without the bugged interaction here, at which point Void Strike would also be long gone. So yea, bad example. If you want to illustrate a point, don't use bugged interactions. Use something that is actually intended.

I agree. Reb should have shown an actual 4 player combat vs Boreal - the video would be only about 1 second long. I think that would illustrate the point in the best way.

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@[DE]Rebeccato provide some feedback/ideas, I'll reply here

I. While the archon fight vs Boreal is great, I think it's quite hard to read what to do - and it reminds me of other bosses like Mutated Alad V which can be frustrating to fight, and Kiril to a lesser extend, if people use certain weapons/abilities, that make their vunerable state delayed. So what I'd personally love to see, is maybe more consistency on how to read bosses' vulnerable state, and make them immune to staggers unless in this state, as to not make the fight feel broken and extended.

II. Damage is an issue. And all I can think of is two things; make bosses (at least archons) immune to non-direct damage. And/or provide them with a damage mitigation, so they can't take more than x amount of damage per second. I'm personally not a fan of healing phases, but given Boreal is the "Defensive Archon" (based on shard); I can understand its thematic relevance. 

Warframe has for a solid while been heavily dominated by AoE, and I'm glad you're not walking back on fixing this. I remember when Limbo was a nightmare to deal with, you literally couldn't go a couple of matches without a Limbo ruining it - and now 99% of the Limbos I see are truly dedicated to him in a positive way.

I've seen some criticism about the Merciless mods being changed, and been thinking about how I feel about it - and.. I think reverting them would do more good than harm - with some caveats:

I think the loss of ammo capacity hurts guns that uses their ammo fast, but also typically don't do unreasonable damage per second - Merciless kind of made them more viable to use without the immediate "argh, I should just use this other gun without ammo issues..."

My suggestion: return 100% ammo for Secondary Merciless, 50% for Primary. I like that I can now run out of primary ammo, and that shouldn't change, but I do agree 100% is a lot for some of the problematic ones. While at the same time I think 50% is enough to lift the ones with ammo issues.

If 50% keeps AoE weapons an issue; lower their ammo count - you've made a lot of weapon-specific modifiers, I think dropping the ammo count for stuff like the Bramma is more reasonable than completely taking away a key aspect of the Merciless mods. 

You want to avoid "I only have one option", yet - while maybe not game-breaking - I do see a near future where everyone just run Dispensary to compensate for what you took with the ammo/Merciless changes. I'd be interested in seeing a chart over primary and secondary arcanes used, as I have a feeling there's a drastic reliance on one of two arcanes for each, which - while maybe not game-breaking - also goes against "I only have one option"

Deadhead and Merciless; how dominant are they for primary and secondary? Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't ever see anyone bring up other arcanes for them. Did you make them too good? Maybe - but it was a solution to the problem of melee dominating damage (a pattern of hardly ever nerfing, only buffing everything besides the issue). I'd prefer seeing "ammo capacity" being a standard for all gun arcanes at Rank 5 (even if lower %), to maybe see if it would add more variety. 

Sorry if I ramble a bit, English isn't my native language - I hope the feedback could be of some use. I love the game and I think with Rebb (you) in charge, the game is in great hands. You'll have to remember you can't make everyone happy, but keep doing what you think is best - that's all I personally can ask for.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Between damage attenuation, certain exploits, or bugs causing instant damage, and more, we will be prioritizing our gameplay and feedback review to make this boss fight experience better. There is a chasm between people who find them too easy and those who find them impossible, and trying to balance this divide will inform parts of our plans. We want to make the bosses we want to fight. We are all on the same page on the quest for the right balance. 


Third - Weaponry & Upgrades (such as Arcanes) shifted a lot. Our Second Hotfix reverted changes to battery/recharge based weapons, but we are taking more time before next week’s hotfix to review the state of the meta and general player loadouts. As a reminder, we made both buffs and nerfs to reset the ammo economy and weapon fluidity, and we are reviewing these changes. 

This will require lots of work, but a major culprit to this issue is the unchecked state of ability and modding balance. There is that timeless citation of TheGreatZamboni and their feedback on the game's modding system all the way back in the early days as essentially unsustainable. While I personally do not agree with some of that post, much of it is also true. If you look at Arcanes, Invigorations, Archon Shards, and the amount of Power Strength/Duration/Range/Efficiency choices, you realize a Warframe has much more than 10 mod slots. The divide between players is largely due to this stacked powercreep with often "hidden" (not really hidden, but difficult to know just through the game's UI's/tutorials) mechanics/interactions. In the context of the video showcase you provided, a less informed player would be using the Rubico Prime, and the more knowledgeable player abusing the Glaive's interaction with Vex Armor. It isn't always necessarily what players have access to, it's what they know about in the spaghetti of which broken values of damage originate. This is why players like Dystopia have a sizeable YouTube following, or Operations like Hostile Mergers require a hotfix because players use well timed Loki Switch Teleports to put the Demolishers out of bounds which causes them to be despawned/killed, or the later used Oberon's Smite with Vigorous Swap setup.

The backlog of bugged/unintended interactions, broken/dysfunctional interactions, and multiplicative interactions has grown tremendously over the last 5-6 years. For bosses (and especially the Raids/Trials you guys plan to address in 2023 after the Duviri Paradox), this all needs to be revised in a manner that goes through the very core of the game's power system. I am going to list a few examples of dated issues, but what needs to be done is an open Dev Workshop where instead of sharing commitments about a change that don't take much feedback into account, Digital Extremes invites players to share every quirky/inconsistent/bugged/broken/unintended interaction (probably sorted/split by which area of the game it affects) so that there can be a revision update that still makes the game a power fantasy, but the player's list of multipliers is squeezed to create more diminishing returns instead of an exponential and unmanageable formula.

  • Galvanized Mods still act multiplicatively on quite a few weapons. Google Sheets documentation
  • Weapons like Arquebex with outlandish base stats
  • Stat Sticks are a nightmare to balance around. All abilities with damage that scale with weapon mods should be separately modded. It is impossible for you guys to balance something like Whipclaw around the guy who just bought Khora Prime with all mods available and the guy who also happens to own an Amphis Riven with triple A/S grades and -100+% Impact.
  • +Damage in a description can mean multiple different multipliers (Base Damage, Final Damage (Primed Chamber), Faction Damage/Damage Blessing, etc.)
  • Since The Deadlock Protocol, Multishot has given Continuous/Beam weapons additional Status Chance of each individual tick. Because Multishot affects per-tick damage and status chance, status damage is affected twice by Multishot. This oversight is why weapons like Phantasma, Synapse (that I used on last night's Prime Time with [DE]Marcus and [DE]Danielle), Convectrix, Kuva Nukor, and Tenet Cycron perform way better than just "strong".
  • Riven Mods
    • Disposition and "grades" (stat thresholds) are both arbitrary multipliers for Riven attributes that makes the system as a whole more difficult to manage. If all weapons in a class get the same stats to roll for and the same value of said stats depending on 2+, 2+1-, 3+, or 3+1-, things will be more predictable. If all weapons have the same opportunity from a Riven Mod, this will make things much easier to balance from DE's end, and players will also have an expected experience of what +Base Damage looks like on any Rifle Riven in the game. If a weapon is an outlier, it has nothing to do with Riven Disposition, but everything to do with the nature of the weapon itself. Looking into this would also make new Prime Access not dead on arrival for Riven owners with those new weapons, or a loathed experience by players anxious if they receive arbitrary nerfs like the recent one made to Furax Wraith due to the overwhelming usage of Amalgam Furax Body Count.
    • -Impact/Puncture/Slash manipulating which damage types the player will deal without negatively affecting weapon's base damage, only initial damage. Multipliers that scale off modded damage are hurt, but multipliers using the weapon's original base damage are unaffected.
    • Inconsistent stat selection between weapon classes. Archguns can roll +Damage to Corpus/Grineer without having a base mod in their weapon class, Primary Kitguns inherit the base attributes value of Secondary Riven Attributes which are much higher than Rifle/Shotguns.
  • Unchecked gimmicks.
    • Profit-Taker. This boss was introduced in late 2018. Zenith is a widely used weapon for shooting the pylons. The Necramech is also widely used to kill the Profit-Taker's legs and body. These gimmicks have been left untouched in the context of this boss for many years (technically 4 for Zenith and 2 for the Necramech). Zenith (and Fluctus as well as Opticor/Opticor Vandal) skips the pylon's "no punch through bubble" (easily tested with a weapon modded for an amount of punch through that exceeds the diameter of the sphere). The Necramech skips using the Archgun Deployer (a key mechanic to the entire Orb Heist). I'm not here to argue or debate whether these should be changed or left alone, but I want to illustrate that when a gimmick unintentionally skips a portion of a designed mission and stays in-game too long, players will accept it as a feature which makes it harder to change later and retain good will.
    • Interactions that increase drops. This resurfaces every time a new resource is added that has a drop associated with it. A player will always go for these builds if they have the option. It's difficult to judge where these should be used because it creates the situation of "you must use this or you are wasting your time". However, this still needs to be examined and balanced for new and old content. Some updates get a quick fix like Angels of Zariman, but Tusk Thumpers are still affected by Desecrate, and Profit-Taker is still affected by Chroma's Effigy. In a case like Tusk Thumpers, balancing their drops around Desecrate would be fair as the min-boss still has value for players to get resources that normally require fishing and mining. In the case of Profit-Taker as a Credits farm, the absence of Chroma makes it undesirable to play for Credits at all, given you lose out on further multiplication like the Credits Blessing. Credits Blessings apply twice; once to in-mission drops (additive with Chroma's Effigy) and again at extraction to your mission rewards.
      • Smeeta's Charm stacking multiplicatively with subsequent procs needs to go. It is long overdue for a nerf to bring expected loot efficiency closer together. 
  • Offensive Specters. Let's be honest here. Players only ever seriously use these to substitute a player, and often themselves. This has been a problem for a long time. Excalibur Umbra used to dominate The Index, Exergis with Specters to act as a turret, and now you see players using their On Call Crew with some flavor of AoE to obliterate enemies as soon as the AI can see them.
  • Helminth. I have no idea how to tackle this, but I just want to acknowledge that it is hard to balance content when a 4 man squad is essentially 8 Warframes worth of skills, because if we are honest here, Warframes are usually chosen for one specific ability or set of abilities when a mission is on the higher end of progression.

Many players like when their arsenal choices matter. There are also many players that like missions such as the Exploiter Orb where none of your arsenal really matters. It is a tremendous undertaking to determine where the line in the sand is drawn with what players can use, and it has always been an arms race with the players who are well equipped to circumvent a balance change that nerfs specific equipment.

I hope the team at DE can sort through these types of issues so that they won't have to restrict most of the arsenal. That way players won't leave new content feeling they engaged with another Lich or a repeat of Orphix Venom where you can benefit from little of the things that you grind hours, days, weeks, or even years for. 

Edited by Voltage
Vocabulary accuracy
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2 hours ago, TuxedoCatfish said:

Have you considered just normalizing player damage across the board, instead of constantly escalating an unnecessarily complex damage attenuation formula that cannot possibly handle all the game's thousands of edge cases and weird exceptions, making optimal play harder and harder to discover (because it's based on finding the one magical exception to the rule) while simultaneously making it more and more mandatory (because playing naively means getting hit with harsher and harsher penalties)?

The reason you can't balance boss fights is because a veteran player can do hundreds of thousands of times more damage than a new player. There is no way to balance that unless you wanted to go full Diablo 3 and make all (relevant) content in the game scale infinitely and under the player's control.

Imagine nerfing that veteran to be only 2-3 times stronger than a new one :)

But I agree that it is absolutely necessary.

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2 hours ago, TuxedoCatfish said:

That's exactly what damage attenuation does, but also exactly why it causes massive problems.

That's not true. I've heard of people casting Rhino's roar only to end up dealing less damage. Damage attenuation is more than just a curve - it dynamically adapts to your damage output. What I'm talking about is a simple curve that only diminishes extreme damage values, so you can't just nuke the boss with a ridiculous build.

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Edited by Erra
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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Is something too dominant (am I ‘playing wrong’ for not using it)?

Don't forget to ask the inverse, too. "Is something too weak (am I playing wrong for using it)?"

Also, while I'm not super familiar with damage attenuation, I've been thinking about harder-set DPS limits. I.e., a damage instance takes the smaller of its current damage or a certain static value based on the weapon's fire rate, so that the boss goes down within a designated timeframe. This may mean excluding damage-over-time effects, but it can enable setting a more specific pace for the fight, less contingent on the player's mods or funky math. That might make it seem kind of hacky, or that players don't need to mod for a boss, but that's also where the adds come into play: they are where you want to keep higher damage.

Just a few thoughts.

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Took a step back and chilled on the update. Overall good things. I was super frustrated at first with Boreal. I do still think removing attenuation and allowing weapons to just one-shot-phase the boss is the better option at the moment. At the very least there should be a notice like for Grendel missions stating that your weapons and abilities will not work the way you would expect.

I'm curious who thinks Boreal is too easy. If you do all the things to be able to enter the mission as Chroma Prime, modded up, Void Strike operator, with a Glaive Prime there should be a payoff like the attack in the example video. Was it too easy leveling up and building these weapons and abilities over hundreds of hours? This train of thought seems like a dead end to me. So much of the game is the modding system and having that essentially made irrelevant by attenuation is a feels bad and it's not just weapons it's Warframe buffs and everything else right. That's too much.

I trust yall to come up with a fair solution. Cheers!

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Warm Friday greetings, Tenno!

 

We are 2 days into the Veilbreaker release and we have released 2 Hotfixes.

I wanted to go over some continued hot topics and provide insight on where we are on priorities for our next Hotfix.

First - our Hotfix next week brings more Kahl, so look forward to his next weekly adventure soon!
Once this hotfix launches, you will have access to items through a new Character, Chipper and a new Syndicate, Kahl’s Garrison. This Syndicate is not Standing based, and you will simply rank up for doing Kahl’s weekly mission each week. New Mods, Styanax blueprints, new weapon blueprints etc., will be accessible when Kahl’s Break Narmer weekly missions begin. These missions are the only path to obtaining Stock, the currency used in Chipper’s offerings.

Second - Archon Hunts will continue to rotate through on a weekly cadence. While Tenno face off against Boreal this week, both Nira and Amar’s hunts will follow in the next two weeks. However, we want to take a moment to discuss the way bosses are handled in Warframe. In truth, there is no one way we approach these. And that can be confusing. It is worth stating that we currently do not have a perfect solution on single-target bosses for a game with such variety in player loadouts and experience, but we are intending to improve them based on our collective experience as a community and developers -- this process will take many weeks of further iteration and testing.

 

Between damage attenuation, certain exploits, or bugs causing instant damage, and more, we will be prioritizing our gameplay and feedback review to make this boss fight experience better. There is a chasm between people who find them too easy and those who find them impossible, and trying to balance this divide will inform parts of our plans. We want to make the bosses we want to fight. We are all on the same page on the quest for the right balance. 


Third - Weaponry & Upgrades (such as Arcanes) shifted a lot. Our Second Hotfix reverted changes to battery/recharge based weapons, but we are taking more time before next week’s hotfix to review the state of the meta and general player loadouts. As a reminder, we made both buffs and nerfs to reset the ammo economy and weapon fluidity, and we are reviewing these changes. 

 

We are continuing to review under the structure of:
- Is something too dominant (am I ‘playing wrong’ for not using it)?
- Is something allowing truly automated play?
- Is something disrupting others from playing in their playstyle?
 

Answers to these questions will guide next steps. We will not revert things to allow automated play (i.e Wukong’s Celestial Twin changes are remaining), but we will review how the ammo and Upgrade changes to player weapons are feeling and performing.

Lastly, thank you everyone! Styanax should be freely available despite a few bumps in the distribution, so just sit tight if you don’t have him yet. It is a remarkable honor to usher in our 50th Warframe with the community, and we will chat next week!

Thanks, Tenno!

 

- [DE]Rebecca 



P.S As an example & for transparency, here is what Archon Fights look like without any damage formulas. If we increase their health so Glaives don't one-shot them, they become near unkillable with other weapons. It'll be a tough problem to solve, but for perspective, this is what we don't want either. 

You’re doing a great job Reb. Keep moving the needle forward. It’s not a sprint it’s a marathon.  You know this game better than anyone. And thank you for the update. 
 

as far as the Archons are concerned I don’t think it’s damage, I think it has more to do with the mechanics. There really are none in this first fight. The Angels were a good example of how these boss fights could go. For example: chunk of health, mechanics, chunk of health, new mechanics, chunk of health, new mechanics and so on and so on. 

Edited by (XBOX)YoungGunn82
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42 minutes ago, Dioxety said:

That’s why I specifically mentioned max loadouts with galvanized mods. Most endgame players are already there. They should require a/s tier weapons to take down.

Yeah, I didn't miss that.

So to me the interesting thing is you regard galvanized mods and an A tier weapon as a max loadout.  I mean, it's reasonable to look at it that way.  It's pretty modest, so it doesn't exclude too many people.   Even somebody like me could manage it. 

But my point was there is an enormous gap between that and somebody who does the same on the right frames, with the right S tier weapons and not just any on the Overframe tier list...with exactly the right build.  And includes rivens, priming, Roar/Eclipse/Gloom, buffs from composed teams like Sonar, Magnetize, invulnerabilities, unlimited energy, unlimited healing, and more.  And that's not even getting into the bugs and maybe bugs that can widen that gap into a chasm.

That's why we've got damage attenuation, invulnerability phases, character switches, nullification, and bosses / high priority targets that are immune to  many of our abilities.   DE can't get rid of those things and make it a reasonably challenging encounter for that arbitrary "max loadout" without it still being ludicrously easy for many people on the first day.

I'm sure they already tried to balance around some vague loadout tier. I expect they'll try to zero in on that better.  And instead of getting rid of damage attenuation, they'll just refine it some more.  Because it's relatively easy and is unlikely to make too many people unhappier than they are now.

However if they want to actually solve the problem, they'll have to be more creative.  Or start overhauling the damage system  or restricting the ways we can use it.

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Pretty much agreed with 9/10 changes in the update and yet to find something i hate.

Hold fast, DE. These are all the right steps to warframe actually being a good video game. It was decent enough before in pretty much every department BUT gameplay, and it's slowly getting there. For once.

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Thank you for this update!

I've played the Archon Hunt Twice; and comparing the two experiences, I noticed a couple of things. 

First round, I went in with the recommended weapons on the UI and was having a great challenging experience, especially the interesting bit where to common Narmer Lancer can charge up an attack that eliminates massive chunks of my specialized Iron Skin. I don't mind bullet sponge enemies so long as there are situations where I have to run away, get some hits in, and not be greedy. There should be a consequence for "getting greedy" (Hopefully there is a way to uniformly do this effect on fellow tank frames like Inaros, Revenant, Nezha and so on.)

Upon the second round, I did notice as well the vast difference when using the more specialized and unique weapons or cheesed methods of fighting these bosses. I wonder if adding health gates (A lot actually) to the Archons would be a possible solution? It could add more room for mechanic-based attacks/defenses, and so on. I imagine a quick healing Boreal summoning deacons to buff and heal it while it has some kind of exalted or super form that can only be deactivated by killing those deacons or something. 

It could work as a stopgap from all of the one-shots from players without resorting to a full damage rework. 

Edited by RavingRoman
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Thanks for the transparency as always DE. 

I don't envy you the monumental task of balancing all of this either. I hope that a middle-ground can be found between attenuation and actually utilizing our Warframes and weapons for archon fights. The fight is plenty doable, but not particularly interesting or enjoyable. I feel like I'm fighting a souped-up version of the Wolf of Saturn Six, where my choice of frame and weapon are irrelevant.

Looking forward to more Kahl though!

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Attinuation is a mechanic that feels like it is intended to keep players from one-shotting enemies that are supposed to have a sense of presence and scope. What really happens is players don't know what they're doing because the mechanic isn't just poorly communicated, but not communicated AT ALL, so when someone's damage numbers go down after using roar they re (UNDERSTANDABLY) upset. When banshee's sonar or warding halo or other debuffs do NOTHING. We're going to resort to the big ol bag of health (Which was one of the major reasosn FOR wukong.) Oh this boss ignores everything? Welp time to strap on a frame that literally can't die.

Weapon attinuation has logic that runs counter to what we've been taught thorugh gameplay on how to handle enemies. Yes there are gimmicks to one shot phases but... that's very much 'unintneded' territory. Instead of stopping the fight to do a fetch quest:

Break u pthe health bar like it was during new war. Introduce the archons IN THE FIGHT ITSELF so players have to grab arcon masks to slot into differing consoles in the arena to turn off the field that is tamping down player damage. Or whatever. As is the fight is BORING and worse.

Mechanically unsound.

Explain attinuation to us. Give that over to sentients. Have differing grades of attinuation so that ya those little shmucko guys have attinuation but powers still work. These mid level guys can't be targeted by damage powers but debuffs work. That guy? Nothing works on him but the powers are helpful for all the trash around im.

And NONE OF THIS IS COMMUNICATED IN THE GAME ITSELF. NONE. ZERO. AT ALL. NONE.

So you have people showing up with builds that might work on normal missions, but not for this guy. 

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This seems like a brain dead easy answer to the OP damage attenuation issues. Fossilized health... It limits damage naturally, doesn't negate frame/operator abilities, and can be armor stripped to slightly increase damage. Also, nevermind companions are broken during these fights, and they get stuck during the cutscene, and it prevents vacuum mods from working. Which also brings up another issue... There NEEDS to be universal natural vacuum across the board at least at 5m. This makes picking up ammo to #*!%ing defend ourselves nearly impossible because we now have to dodge the Archon, while searching for the ammo on the ground and run over it DIRECTLY, assuming it drops... Also, nevermind how these ammo nerfs affect gameplay overall, and this mode shows that with flying colors... We're now using MORE ammo while getting less back in comparison. The kill/damage to ammo use is through the floor at the moment. It also makes fights with the Archon nearly impossible for me as well since my melee weapons even with Primed reach could not hit them... You're creating situations that are unwinnable, and unbalanced to hell and back...

You're too busy trying to balance something that can NEVER be balanced, and leads to a never ending list of nerfs that does nothing but hurt the game, and players experience with it overall. Current ammo drops are horrible for most weapons crating a new meta of weapons, or reverting back to the melee only meta to never worry about it to begin with (which reverts old changes to combat melee only meta), which will create another list of nerfs, that keeps killing endgame damage, while you continue to create unwinnable situations despite loadouts, and creates the very thing you're trying to address as quoted below...

 

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Is something too dominant (am I ‘playing wrong’ for not using it)?

 

You'll never be able to even out damage, and usage across the board without having to redesign the game from the ground up. You created a horde shooter, and using weapons that simply target single enemies when there are 30 crammed into a small room the size of a walk in closet, is not only not efficient, but nearly impractical when they're all shooting you nearly killing you. I also find it weird that you're trying to nerf weapons, but yet it's fine for frames to be doing MILLIONS of points of damage even with AoE of theirs... Merciless arcane nerfs was MASSIVELY unneeded...

 

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Is something disrupting others from playing in their playstyle?

 

I also find this hypocritical, and ironic as you're creating this issue yourself with either this game mode, or nerfs in general...

Edited by (NSW)Master2873
Fixed a word.
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23 minutes ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

And NONE OF THIS IS COMMUNICATED IN THE GAME ITSELF. NONE. ZERO. AT ALL. NONE.

To be fair to Attenuation, basically nothing is ever communicated in the game.  For anything.  Not entirely true, but everyone who's played to MR 10 knows what I mean.  DE do not like to explain basic things in-game, but in random update note posts that people who start the game even a month later won't ever even know about.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Is something disrupting others from playing in their playstyle?

I expect this is not the highest priority, simply because it can't be, but I generally think its a bad idea to care too much about this as an aspect of feedback. Not only because its listening to pathetic simpering, its a thing that cuts both ways and I don't see how simply tuning the game away from overwhelmingly prominent playstyles accomplishes the exact same goal without catering to the worst of the feedback.

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As far as archon and boss fights in general  - you obviously cant make it just a DPS check because there is no balance in the game whatsoever. But what you need to do is have damage caps to make the stages unskippable to have some gameplay: say, you can only do 15% damage and then he does his phase and spawns adds, then you do another 15% and he goes into next phase and starts his attack you have to dodge, etc (currently you can just skip everything down to 50% cutscene and fetch part and then again oneshot the other 50%) 

Basic fundamentals of any combat: you need to evade attacks and find opening for your attacks, damage shouldn't matter as much as timing, positioning and aim. 

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Really appreciate the transparency here, helps put into perspective why it is the way it is. One idea I've had is that you can deal so much damage to them with a single weapon before it becomes completely immune to it until you use another weapon on it, which would encourage switching weapons. Would maybe solve the issue of overpowered glaive but idk

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Here's a proposal / idea!

Make it so the HP is staggered in 5(20%) or 8(12.5%) sections
(think like The Jackal, the hp bar is split in 25% segments ( 4 smaller HP bars )

After players break down each section/segment/smaller bar of hp, boss becomes immune until you complete a mechanic*, then you can do the next hp bar phase.

*( summon angels, summon the immunity pyramid thing, do the Boreal Roar that you need to cancel with your operator's amp, etc stuff that the Archon already has and doesnt need to be made from the ground up to save on dev time )

1- Nerf their attenuation to be like that of Kuva Liches / Sisters of Parvos , many players feel like Liches are at a good point, tanky wise, they are strong but not too strong.

2- Keep disallowing stuff like CC and armor reduction, that's gonna make them a step UP in difficulty compared to Liches (Grineer/Corpus)

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hace 4 horas, LillyRaccune dijo:

2) There were some damage immunity parts to Boreal that I didn't understand. Like the spinning pyramid thing... Not sure how to actually fight back while he is invulnerable. 

You have to shoot the balls on the pyramid vertices.

I saw them because I was scoped in when it triggered, but I get how it may be confusing to some. 

Maybe adding a glowing effect to them?

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2 hours ago, Erra said:

That's not true. I've heard of people casting Rhino's roar only to end up dealing less damage. Damage attenuation is more than just a curve - it dynamically adapts to your damage output. What I'm talking about is a simple curve that only diminishes extreme damage values, so you can't just nuke the boss with a ridiculous build.

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"You've heard of", yeah, you've probably heard of it from people who don't actually know what they're talking about. Damage attenuation works like graduated income tax, which is also extremely commonly misunderstood; we know the basic/older formula and there's no situation where you actually deal less final damage because of a buff, you just get less of the benefit than you would expect.

The other thing is that even if there are cases like that, you're saying "just make a curve bing bong so simple." It's not. There is no single in-game stat or variable that equates to "weapon damage" like you're describing here. There's an attempt to account and compensate for as many of the game's exception-based rules as possible, and the fact that they missed some is what makes the formula fall short of the perfect curve you're imagining. It's a problem of execution, not premise.

e: well, okay, to walk that back a little bit, i know of one situation that could result in a net loss of damage: buffs that increase Fire Rate can cause you to lose overall damage if you don't fire your gun as fast as you possibly can. but that's mostly a matter of user error; if you did fire as fast as possible, the damage formula would work as expected

Edited by TuxedoCatfish
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I feel like positive feedback on your well designed bosses doesn't get signal boosted enough. So I'll drop it here to give context on the glaive and damage attenuation.

I really like the Jackal Rework. It's really satisfying to Parazon Finisher between each leg break. This is a form of "Health Gating" and I don't mind it at all. Similarly, I like the Exploiter Orb boss fight. When optimzied, it's really 'punchy' to go through each phase properly. It feels really cinematic. Profit Taker lacks the cinematics, but it still has the gating and the demands to switch elements and summon an archgun is mechanically interesting enough.

The Ropalolyst is straight up my favorite fight in the game. There's no invulnerability phases. You do the fight as fast as you can execute the demands of each phase. You one shot the limbs or 'health gates', and interact with the panels and boss and tileset elements to progress the fight. Once you get into a flow state, it feels extremely good.

Damage Attenuation on Boreal feels like a necessary evil, but I also feel like the punchiness of the above is missing from the fight. I got some of it from going around the map between the phases, but due to attenuation the pacing of depleting Boreals hp slowed the pace of the fight to a crawl as a solo player - winding up as a 1 hour and 47 minute fight. That said, I enjoyed it a lot. Ya'll got something really good cooking here. It is nice to finally have something not die instantly to my weapons.

Perhaps add health gating to solve the problem with the glaive?

Edited by Azimbee
grammar
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