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Veilbreaker: Launch & Hot Topics


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#ReturnTheAmmo

Seriously though.... give it back.

You guys put these really cool radial weapons in the game and then just... take it away?....

I run Kuva Ogris and Akarius, and now I'm almost ALWAYS out of ammo. This used to be my "fun time" game, and you guys ruined it...

 

Also, don't use the "oh we gotta stop automation" excuse. Only no-life losers "automate" games. Most of us use radial because it is more FUN than regular precision weapons. This issue falls on YOUR shoulders for making precision weapons less fun, not because radial weapons are more fun. In other words, I'm saying don't NERF radial weapons, but rather BUFF precision weapons so that people will actually want to use them again.

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P.S As an example & for transparency, here is what Archon Fights look like without any damage formulas. If we increase their health so Glaives don't one-shot them, they become near unkillable with other weapons. It'll be a tough problem to solve, but for perspective, this is what we don't want either.  

Seems like a you problem, fix it.

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I'm glad this is getting addressed. I'm a player on the end of the spectrum that thinks that it is too easy, but also understand that there is a very large gap between those like me and those that see this as too difficult. I personally feel Warframe needs more difficult content, steel path is certainly a step in the right direction, especially with ST fissures and ST(or possibly higher) levels of difficulty on the archon hunts. There are so many tools in players arsenals to the point where our power is at ungodly levels. and that is even before you get to extreme levels of min-maxing that allows very specific setups to finish Boreals first phase nearly as fast as your example but on the live build with the damage attenuation active. 

The game absolutely needs even harder content, something that allow players to put all of this power to real use,  but damage attenuation is not the answer and in most any form will always feel bad to those of us who put in the work to make our builds better and is not the answer in my opinion. I understand the reasoning for it but I think a better solution is needed. A flat DR for certain bosses would likewise cause issues of its own that I'm sure the team is already aware of. 

I think a large portion of the answer lies in a larger problem for the game all together, and that is modding and to an extent overall synergies between abilities and weapons. At the risk of sounding rude (I'm just trying to be honest) there are far too many players that I see who's builds just aren't good, and it's only partially their fault because there isn't really anything obvious in the game that would lead them in the correct direction.

 

I think a possible solution (or at least a band-aid fix for this) would be to have a way for people to browse other players builds. As an example, lets say a player just claimed a new weapon from their foundry and wanted some ideas as to how to mod it. You could have a menu they could go to that would display a list of community made builds for them to browse through with a ranking system where a player could rate a build based on how they liked it (1-5 stars or something similar). The player could then favorite a build they wanted to try and if they had the mods and capacity they could apply it to their weapon(much like chat linking a build works currently). If you wanted to go a step further you could even have it where a player could have an interaction such as hover over a mod to see what it's source is so they can learn how to go acquire it if they don't have it. 

 

This sort of system would give players an easy way to improve their builds, and by interacting with the system would in many cases serve as a guide for them to eventually learn how to make effective builds of their own.

 

This would raise the overall "floor" of player power thus taking a step towards closing the gap in situations like with the archon hunts as well as making balancing for these fights a slightly easier task. A system like this already exist on overframe but many players don't visit outside sites for the game so having a system like this built into the game would be healthy for it in my opinion, not to mention the community aspect of it would be appreciated by many I'm sure.  

 

There are likely other things that would work as well but that's just what I came up as a quick idea. 

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Ability immunity is definitely one of the worst ways you can use to 'balance' the game. Given the name of this game is Warframe, making enemies immune to Warframe abilities is counterproductive. Looking at you Arbitration Drones, Overguard, and now Archon fights... Taking away the use of my abilities takes away the majority of what I have worked on in this game, because I have YET to find a single weapon in this game that I enjoy playing with. So instead, all of my attention has been on my Warframe builds. Well, this new archon hunt game mode has basically rendered all of my effort for naught, and I am not happy what so ever with it. Thanks, DE.

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***- Is something disrupting others from playing in their playstyle?***

/quote

alright you have got to tone that down and define it better, because that is selfish as well.

what's their playstyle? why are they mad?

is their playstyle braton only with no running and we all have to walk around and shoot when they do? that's not fair.

are they mad because of kills? if so why? do they feel THEY should get the kills? thats pretty selfish, so you want to group but only if YOUR carrying the others and not vice versa?

 

AT WHAT POINT do you say switch to solo or that's just a you problem?

 

limbo was disruptive, he put YOU the player in a state of play that was not your choice and HEAVILY effects gameplay, this happened constantly with one in the party and it required YOU the player to know how someone else's warframe worked and keep track of and counter effects because of how disruptive it was.

fighting for kills? how fast you clear a room? that's just gameplay and people being salty. well just use other guns or warframe abilities (thermal sunder) to once again clear a room, that's your gameplay, if people find warframes gameplay disruptive solo or dont play. 

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This biggest comment that I have about the Archon fight specifically is that we were told that it was balanced around being late/end game content designed to be completed best with 4 players. So far, I haven't seen this be the case. None of the mechanics of the fight are any easier with more players, in fact, when you take damage attenuation into account, it can actually be a hinderance to bring a full squad since the health, shields, and adaptive armor will all scale 4x as high. In my opinion, the fight needs more interactive mechanics that require actions by multiple players at once and, if they aren't done successfully, must be redone until the squad succeeds. When the in-fight mechanic is done successfully by the squad they should be rewarded by more than simply being able to damage the boss again. I think the attenuation can work if the players are given the option to properly understand how it works and given at least one path to overcome it mechanically within the fight. For example, if the players complete the task to end the archon's invulnerability phase within a certain timeframe or through specific actions the boss is opened up and the attenuation is temporarily removed. 

I also firmly believe that the game sets many players up to not understand how to best deal with these big tanky bosses. It's the same reason people complained about eidolons and profit taker on launch. There is a general lack of understanding about modding, damage types, resistances, and the best way to deal with each of these things. Many players, even those of high mastery rank, don't know which elemental combos are most effective against which enemies, how crit chance and crit damage are multiplied in the damage equation, or the value of faction mods, condition overload, ect. This mostly comes from the main part of the game being balanced so low that almost any weapon with any build can deal enough damage that people don't question it or attempt to optimize their builds until much later if at all.... Fixing the problems and the divide between opinions on the Archon fight mostly comes down to transparency, understanding, and the desire for reward for effort instead of punishment. 

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what I am curious about is the reasoning behind the archon hunt rotation refreshing in the middle of the week, rather than Sunday night like most other weekly rotations? Was that just a matter of when the content launched or is it a design choice that will be sticking around to make the archon hunts more distinct?

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Ok so my main review of this update is mostly positive. The archon fights were a bit different from what i imagined but all in not half bad. Definitely not the endgame i thought it would be but its closer then anything else we have. the archon shards however have some glaring problems. if you take a look at how strong abilities are able to get when running solo, not even with a full squad, you run into a massive disparity. Ability strength has over 10 sources that give power strength and several are not mods and would free up mod slots of frames. Duration now also is able to get over 100% extra duration from sources other then mods. But range is still restricted to mods only. I was really hoping that the archon shards would change this and allow for more creative builds that use range. I feel this is a massive oversight that strength and duration got buffed once again and range got absolutely nothing. Please please please change this DE. We need more variety in ability range buffs!

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1 hour ago, Wheelhouser said:

To be fair to Attenuation, basically nothing is ever communicated in the game.  For anything.  Not entirely true, but everyone who's played to MR 10 knows what I mean.  DE do not like to explain basic things in-game, but in random update note posts that people who start the game even a month later won't ever even know about.

Fair, but that doesn't make it right or good design.

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I just wanted to say, for whatever it's worth, that I had a really good time with the Veilbreaker update. Archon fight included. It's not the best boss fight the game has, but it's far from being as bad as people are making it out to be. There's nothing wrong with a "spongy" boss that takes time to be beaten. Maybe the archon just needed a few more mechanics to make the fight more interesting.

I just feel like you guys at DE (maybe Steve) catered too much and for too long to the players that feel entitled to one shotting any boss that exists in the game and if they don't, then it's "boring, DE must nerf" demands. This is the same mentality that holds Warframe hostage to the automated AFK farming playstyle you guys are now trying to revert. The Angels of Zariman was a BRILLIANT update, exactly because the new missions are so dynamic and high energy. The new eximus were great and removed a layer of lazy AFK farming from the game. Veilbreaker brought GREAT ammo changes that absolutely make the game better and launchers require a tiny bit of extra brain to use. Not to mention insane amounts of quality of life. Maybe you guys just need to stick to your vision for the game, I feel like it's been a really strong and compelling vision since AoZ. I haven't felt this vibe in WF for a very long time.

 

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Warm Friday greetings, Tenno!

 

We are 2 days into the Veilbreaker release and we have released 2 Hotfixes.

I wanted to go over some continued hot topics and provide insight on where we are on priorities for our next Hotfix.

First - our Hotfix next week brings more Kahl, so look forward to his next weekly adventure soon!
Once this hotfix launches, you will have access to items through a new Character, Chipper and a new Syndicate, Kahl’s Garrison. This Syndicate is not Standing based, and you will simply rank up for doing Kahl’s weekly mission each week. New Mods, Styanax blueprints, new weapon blueprints etc., will be accessible when Kahl’s Break Narmer weekly missions begin. These missions are the only path to obtaining Stock, the currency used in Chipper’s offerings.

Second - Archon Hunts will continue to rotate through on a weekly cadence. While Tenno face off against Boreal this week, both Nira and Amar’s hunts will follow in the next two weeks. However, we want to take a moment to discuss the way bosses are handled in Warframe. In truth, there is no one way we approach these. And that can be confusing. It is worth stating that we currently do not have a perfect solution on single-target bosses for a game with such variety in player loadouts and experience, but we are intending to improve them based on our collective experience as a community and developers -- this process will take many weeks of further iteration and testing.

 

Between damage attenuation, certain exploits, or bugs causing instant damage, and more, we will be prioritizing our gameplay and feedback review to make this boss fight experience better. There is a chasm between people who find them too easy and those who find them impossible, and trying to balance this divide will inform parts of our plans. We want to make the bosses we want to fight. We are all on the same page on the quest for the right balance. 


Third - Weaponry & Upgrades (such as Arcanes) shifted a lot. Our Second Hotfix reverted changes to battery/recharge based weapons, but we are taking more time before next week’s hotfix to review the state of the meta and general player loadouts. As a reminder, we made both buffs and nerfs to reset the ammo economy and weapon fluidity, and we are reviewing these changes. 

 

We are continuing to review under the structure of:
- Is something too dominant (am I ‘playing wrong’ for not using it)?
- Is something allowing truly automated play?
- Is something disrupting others from playing in their playstyle?
 

Answers to these questions will guide next steps. We will not revert things to allow automated play (i.e Wukong’s Celestial Twin changes are remaining), but we will review how the ammo and Upgrade changes to player weapons are feeling and performing.

Lastly, thank you everyone! Styanax should be freely available despite a few bumps in the distribution, so just sit tight if you don’t have him yet. It is a remarkable honor to usher in our 50th Warframe with the community, and we will chat next week!

Thanks, Tenno!

 

- [DE]Rebecca 



P.S As an example & for transparency, here is what Archon Fights look like without any damage formulas. If we increase their health so Glaives don't one-shot them, they become near unkillable with other weapons. It'll be a tough problem to solve, but for perspective, this is what we don't want either. 

 

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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Warm Friday greetings, Tenno!

 

We are 2 days into the Veilbreaker release and we have released 2 Hotfixes.

I wanted to go over some continued hot topics and provide insight on where we are on priorities for our next Hotfix.

First - our Hotfix next week brings more Kahl, so look forward to his next weekly adventure soon!
Once this hotfix launches, you will have access to items through a new Character, Chipper and a new Syndicate, Kahl’s Garrison. This Syndicate is not Standing based, and you will simply rank up for doing Kahl’s weekly mission each week. New Mods, Styanax blueprints, new weapon blueprints etc., will be accessible when Kahl’s Break Narmer weekly missions begin. These missions are the only path to obtaining Stock, the currency used in Chipper’s offerings.

Second - Archon Hunts will continue to rotate through on a weekly cadence. While Tenno face off against Boreal this week, both Nira and Amar’s hunts will follow in the next two weeks. However, we want to take a moment to discuss the way bosses are handled in Warframe. In truth, there is no one way we approach these. And that can be confusing. It is worth stating that we currently do not have a perfect solution on single-target bosses for a game with such variety in player loadouts and experience, but we are intending to improve them based on our collective experience as a community and developers -- this process will take many weeks of further iteration and testing.

 

Between damage attenuation, certain exploits, or bugs causing instant damage, and more, we will be prioritizing our gameplay and feedback review to make this boss fight experience better. There is a chasm between people who find them too easy and those who find them impossible, and trying to balance this divide will inform parts of our plans. We want to make the bosses we want to fight. We are all on the same page on the quest for the right balance. 


Third - Weaponry & Upgrades (such as Arcanes) shifted a lot. Our Second Hotfix reverted changes to battery/recharge based weapons, but we are taking more time before next week’s hotfix to review the state of the meta and general player loadouts. As a reminder, we made both buffs and nerfs to reset the ammo economy and weapon fluidity, and we are reviewing these changes. 

 

We are continuing to review under the structure of:
- Is something too dominant (am I ‘playing wrong’ for not using it)?
- Is something allowing truly automated play?
- Is something disrupting others from playing in their playstyle?
 

Answers to these questions will guide next steps. We will not revert things to allow automated play (i.e Wukong’s Celestial Twin changes are remaining), but we will review how the ammo and Upgrade changes to player weapons are feeling and performing.

Lastly, thank you everyone! Styanax should be freely available despite a few bumps in the distribution, so just sit tight if you don’t have him yet. It is a remarkable honor to usher in our 50th Warframe with the community, and we will chat next week!

Thanks, Tenno!

 

- [DE]Rebecca 



P.S As an example & for transparency, here is what Archon Fights look like without any damage formulas. If we increase their health so Glaives don't one-shot them, they become near unkillable with other weapons. It'll be a tough problem to solve, but for perspective, this is what we don't want either. 


First ( ... ) - Kinda disappointed that Khal's missions will be weekly, instead of being similar to the current Narmer ones. Hell, I would have  been happy with  "daily".  ( Yes, I'm addicted to both the syndicate & open-world faction missions. )

Second ( ... ) - 

a. Glavie prime can be built with a blast radius, with either pure combo damage /or/ radiation status /or/ corrosive status...
b. Chorma Prime with fire-based vex armor..
c. Operator using Void Strike...



d. Revenant just dico-balling the Archon to death ( simple cheese used in the last Archon fight of TNW, if I recall )...

=

The Archons are wearing Alloy Armor, and the player is aiming a planet-sized Nataruk at its head.

Come on, DE ( love you ). The players who solo-farm all three Eidolons in one night, had one-shot the Angels as soon as the Zariman update dropped. It doesn't take long to figure out the Archons have alloy armor, and a lega-based amp deals with those annoying void-base stages quickly. Hopefully, I pushed you towards the right direction.

Third ( ... ) - 

a. "something too dominant"? - Players getting into high content, without an amp. Yep, that's right! Those floating T-pose freaks, with a void beam coming out of their chest, are flooding the Zariman now. They won't do the void phases of an Angel, so I'm sus on them using an exploit that's flying under DE's radar. I have reported this before, but never got a response of acknowledgement. 

b. "automated play"? - Specters and Wukong's brother are arguable. If you use a NL specter, you can use another syndicate specter, then your warframe specter, then either Umber Excalibur or Khora with another companion. It's easy farming, but your not going to take down Eidolons, or clear Arbs or the steel path. It's a jerk move when someone does this in a PuG, though.

Oh, and Revenant spinning like a top in one place. Usually the center of a room or tile set.  

c. "Disrupting play" - Just toxic jerks, and DE ( still love you ) performing heavy-handed nerfs - for mind-bending reasons.

Honestly, shoot me a message or an e-mail. :heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:


 

Edited by KuvaForTheBloodGod
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Thanks for the quick communication and continual responses to the community about this. Even if and when it seems like things are out of sync with DE, hardcore meta players and the more casual players on the direction of Warframe, it's still worth giving credit for at least reaching out to find the best solution which is more than most companies would do, especially when the topic gets heated.

 

Since the subject of Damage Attenuation's been brought back up with the Archon Hunts, I've been reading peoples thoughts and personally thinking about its role in the game. The biggest concern with Damage Attenuation is that it's largely an equalising health bar that, whether you're an under equipped MR6 or a veteran that's Primed, Galvanized, Arcane'd, Forma'd and ready to go, at the end of the day both players end up spending roughly the same amount of time doing the same action of just shooting the target, and that's not particularly engaging or fair to both, as fully equipped players have all their time and effort put into builds nullified, and for under equipped players they have to contend with a large bullet sponge. 

 

However, I do think Damage Attenuation can still mostly exist (But still tuned down a smidge from where it's currently at), but it requires looking at things from a different perspective. On one side of the coin, it's purpose is to be a time gater and check on the players power, but there's no way of circumventing it so it acts as a pure punishment simply for being too strong. So what if there were interesting ways to temporarily negate or at least reduce it whilst in combat? 

 

Here's a quick idea for how it could work with, say, Kuva Liches. During the final confrontation, you do big damage, Attenuation kicks in with the bosses health bar now with a shimmering white overlay (Like the effect seen on a warframes shield bar for instance) as an indicator to the player. But when you knockdown and mercy kill a Thrall or a set number of Thralls, Attenuation is reset/severely lowered and you can get in a burst of damage more representative to your build before it returns. This means if you're doing average but consistent damage you engage with the Lich and their abilities as normal, but if you're running an OP build it counters that to stop it becoming a quick one shot fight, but by playing smarter and engaging with the evolving mechanics you can turn the tables back in your favor for brief moments. 

 

So what about the other side of the coin, with players not doing enough damage? Then an inverse mechanic to help boost them can come into play. Again using Kuva Liches as an example, if a set amount of time has past and Attenuation hasn't hit a certain threshold or even activated, then the Thralls instead give boosts to the players weapons or abilities to grant them windows to speed up the fights. With the right tuning of the math and playtesting, the former can be kept from being too short and the latter can be kept from being too long, but most importantly for both cases, it keeps the fights more mechanically diverse and engaging throughout. What's more, in a squad with varying builds/skill levels, even a lower levelled player can still be actively contributing when taking out Thralls as they assist stronger players doing the larger damage. There's plenty of ways that this could be added with Archons too. Perhaps it could be Deacons that spawn into the fight that'll wipe the Attenuation upon death but can only be killed with headshots, or Battalysts start to drop shards (ala the Index) that the more you collect the more you overcome the Attenuation but will decay rapidly.

 

I think a lot of players and content creators are largely going to default to the solution being to remove Attenuation entirely and add more special mechanics and phases (Which I'm also majorly in favor for, bosses like the Jackal and the Zealoid Prelate are great templates for having no-damage phases that extend the fight without it feeling like a chore), but I hope my idea for how Attenuation can be revised might be a way to avoid having the flow of late game boss fights purely become "Do one shot damage, do mechanic/puzzle, do one shot damage, do mechanic/puzzle" etc. 

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Overall I think the state of the game's health has improved with this, significantly. But. Was Phantasma's ammo sustainability annihilated because it has that useless aoe alt fire? 

 

In all seriousness though, while the explosive weapons needed to 'go,' give some thought as to what factors made their use so enticing to begin with, past the brainless automation that could be gotten away with previously. Much of the time, precision weaponry feels overly punished by just the game being what it is. So much of the time, enemies are scattering and sprinting all over the place - kryptonite to "you NEED to get headshots" type of gameplay. A frame not running Gloom or something to slow them down, tends to have a miserable time. 

 

How about two or three systemic changes? 

1: Running-around enemies, slow them down when your aiming reticle nears them (hidden gameplay mechanic, similar to the damage reduction during rolls, evasion while airborne, etc). Explosive weapons didn't mind, but precision weapons cry when they run away from facing you, blocking off access to headshots with their very own bodies.

2: Widen headshot hitboxes, make them more generous. Darktide comes out soon, take notes on how they deliberately made headshots more giving than the exact visual models, because, and I quote, "it's simply more fun that way in a horde game"

3: Explosive weapons simply did a superior job of putting an actual meaningful dent in a neverending tide, in a horde game. Give some intrinsic bonuses to precision headshot kills that actually do something on that horde front. Whether it be a radial stun or slow to other nearby enemies, or something more back-end like slowing down the respawn rates of that enemy's spawn slot (while awarding more of whatever kill-resource the mission mode focuses on, if it's a kill-based mode). Or, hell, you guys could even add a whole new line of slots to the Parazon, that's all about passive bonuses/effects for precision kills.

 

Because even now, the best of the best traditional guns still suffer the same systemic points of friction that pushed people toward aoe. 

Edited by Tau.
Darktide release date moved to the end of November
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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yep, also don't want 15 second fights, so onward we quest to solve the million damage excitement vs. bosses.

yeah but the problem is not only are the million damage weapons not usable, I can't field my favorite opticor vandal viably either...

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Thanks for the update.

 I would like to say a word of warning, no one will find the Alcon Hunt really "TOO EASY".  " SUPER DULL" is the common perception.

We tried to reduce the "SUPER DULL" to "tolerable" by using "phenmor" and other means.
If it was an exploit, it would be out of our hands.
You are always nerf weapons, etc. just because "Alcon was defeated easier than we thought."
We are only trying to do our best with what we are given in the game.

Why deny it when it is in accordance with the specifications?

Much of the gap between players is due to effort and time expended.
To standardize it will only cause those who put in more effort to quit Warframe.

Waste of effort.
Everyone should play on the same line.
No one is allowed to take it easy.
Only work hard.

You say a lot of things, but in summary, this is all I can see.

Do you really want us to "enjoy" the game?
I doubt it.

I understand that you are making an effort.
I know it will be very difficult to do so immediately, but I hope that things will change for the better with less burden.

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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

here is what Archon Fights look like without any damage formulas.

That's... that's the point. We spend countless hours making ourselves stronger, and using buffs to increase our damage. Having something that lets us test our power is what makes it worthwhile.

Damage Attenuation in its current state means that using weaker weapons is better, and buffing our characters or weapons with warframe abilities is literally decreasing the damage we do. Read that part again. And again. Really drive home the idea. Why would BUFFING ourselves REDUCE the damage we do?

Putting the damage attenuation aside, there's still the matter of Boreal having several, several, abilities that makes them immune to damage. The pyramid, the summoned aerolyths, the blindingly blue push-sphere, the transition to the second arena... Then there's the matter of the unavoidable, unmitigatable pushes and area denials that ignore Primed Surefooted, removing player agency to avoid undesirable outcomes.

I want difficulty in Warframe. But I want ways to handle that difficulty, which are already built into the game and available to players, to actually help mitigate that difficulty. I want all of my hours spent becoming stronger to mean something, not to ignore them as I equip my weakest weapon to avoid Damage Attenuation mechanics. And really, what better place to put that difficulty, than at the end of a large portion of the story quests, against a beefed up version of a boss that, for every lore reason and for every leap of understanding, is MEANT to be powerful?

Finally,

7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Second - Archon Hunts will continue to rotate through on a weekly cadence.

I would very much like you to overturn this decision. If you're going to add something as important as Archon Shards, please for the love of the game and this wonderful community, make them something we can farm. I ignore sorties. I pretend they don't exist, and instead buy Rivens than try to farm for them because I utterly despise login-and-complete content. Absolutely, irrevocably despise them. I have dropped games that are otherwise great because of these very same mechanics. If I start having to set a weekly alarm to login to Warframe to login and complete a single mission, only to have a 1 in 5 chance to get a shard that will be worth the effort, vs the duds that you get 80% of the time, I'm going to grow to hate the game I love most and, to this point, have always returned to.

Please, I beg of you, do not let this be Warframe's last gasp. Don't die on this hill to make a core part of the endgame a weekly login mission.

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Allow me to suggest a slightly different approach to the boss problem.

Quick background: The most fun I've had in Warframe in the past several years was when a bunch of us got together to try to get a big score on the fomorian. We tested builds, loadouts, rolled rivens, practiced our strats, and in the end, we hit 143 million. It really was fun as hell. So what made it so fun? I think the following points are important here:

1.) There is a "win" threshold (1 million points), but there isn't a score ceiling. You are encouraged to explore and employ Warframe's damage mechanics to the fullest, and you are rewarded for it. (In the case of the fomorian, the reward was merely the big number in the profile stat.)
2.) Quick mission, can be repeated over and over again to try to improve the score. But entry to the mission is not free; you need to pay to enter, which requires you to engage with the broader game to collect the materials needed to make a key.
3.) The score is displayed in your profile. To an old player who has everything, getting a cosmetic or a profile adornment of any kind - even if it's just text - is valuable in itself.

In light of this, if I were designing the Archon fights, I'd make it closer to a fomorian mission than a regular bossfight. The Archon itself would be on a timer and have a damage "win threshold" like the fomorian (i.e., minimum damage needed to "kill it"). Any damage above that threshold would go towards a bonus score of some sort. The bonus could be something like increasing the sizes of the rewards (slight increases in durations of the boosters, quantity of kuva/endo) or maybe a slight shift in the drop rates of the rarer rewards. The bonus would be a log function of the score, and the score would be unbounded. Do as much damage as you can, but there's a sharply diminishing rate of return in terms of reward bonus increases. Players who can hit the max value of a long int should maybe get an 80 hour booster vs. the regular 72 hour, for instance.

Doing it this way would mean that you can forget about bespoke damage mitigation and just let people go as hard as they can and be rewarded for it. If you're feeling SUPER generous, include a profile stat displaying maximum damage dealt against each archon in the player's profile page.

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hace 8 horas, LillyRaccune dijo:

1) There were some damage immunity parts to Boreal that I didn't understand. Like the spinning pyramid thing... Not sure how to actually fight back while he is invulnerable.

 2I agree that more than 90% of the gun arsenal has been buffed because of having greater pickups. I appreciate that.

3) Some guns are just too darn powerful. Some guns are more powerful than archguns, that's not fair to the players that had to fight to unlock them!

1)hit the white bubbles 2)they are not buff unless u have groll. 2)all guns are more powerfull than archguns because normal guns have more mods.even the mk1 can hit lvl cap ej;paris(https://youtu.be/hlRyJEMvzlw) furis(https://youtu.be/NrQmxCypwp0) and this was before the update

 

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8 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

P.S As an example & for transparency, here is what Archon Fights look like without any damage formulas. If we increase their health so Glaives don't one-shot them, they become near unkillable with other weapons. It'll be a tough problem to solve, but for perspective, this is what we don't want either. 

Thank you for the update, and for explaining DE's rationale behind implementing damage attenuation! This video does a really good job of showing exactly what a "fixed HP, no attenuation" boss will be like versus a powerful player, and I think it's very worth noting that a player who is not powerful will barely be able to tickle this same enemy.

As a bunch of other folks have said, one of the biggest issues causing the DPS discrepancies between players is that our damage system has so many damage bonuses that stack with each other multiplicatively, rather than additively. Let me just throw a quick incomplete example down:

  • Spoiler

    When attacking with a weapon, the player's effective DPS will be something like:
    DPS = (Base damage) * (Base damage mods & arcanes + Chroma Vex Armor + Octavia Amp + Void Strike + Condition/Gundition Overload on most weapons) * (Fire rate, after mods & arcanes) * (Multishot, after mods & arcanes) * (Critical hits + Melee Stealth Bonus) * (Headshot multiplier) * (Weak point modifier for non-head weakpoints) * (Physical/Elemental mod bonuses) * (Physical/Elemental Type Advantage bonuses) * (Effects from Armor including physical/elemental type advantage bonuses again) * (Faction Damage + Roar)(2, if it's a status DoT) * (Final damage multipliers, e.g. Mirage's Eclipse + Gundition Overload on some guns) * (Other final damage multipliers, e.g. Boreal's Contempt) * (Multishot that's separate from other multishot, e.g. Mirage's Hall of Mirrors) * (Viral procs for health, or Magnetic procs on shields) * (Elemental bonuses that deal separate instances of damage, e.g. Xaku's Xata's Whisper + Saryn's Toxic Lash) * (Other multipliers that I've forgotten about).

    That's a giant mess of a formula, but the point is that that's a LOT of separate multipliers, and I know for sure that I didn't get all of them. Feel free to ctrl+f the character "*" and you'll see what I mean.
    Obviously a player can't just activate all of these multipliers at once, but experienced players will take advantage of as many of these as possible, either solo or with a coordinated squad... causing damage to explode exponentially based on how many separate multipliers are being applied at the same time (and, of course, the strength of each multiplier). Not good.

     

My suggestion: MERGE A BUNCH OF THESE MULTIPLIERS TOGETHER SO THAT THEY'RE ADDITIVE TO EACH OTHER, NOT MULTIPLICATIVE. Obviously things like fire rate and base damage can never be additive to each other because they're conceptually different things; but things like Faction Damage, Eclipse, Viral procs, etc. can be merged into a single "final damage" category so they add to each other instead of multiplying. Player damage output will be much more predictable and manageable this way.

 

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22 hours ago, TuxedoCatfish said:

That's exactly what damage attenuation does, but also exactly why it causes massive problems. There is no single variable that actually expresses the player's "damage" in terms that affect all weapons equally.

If you try to calculate DPS from the player's arsenal stats, that fails to account for semi-auto weapons not dealing their theoretical maximum (without a macro). If you try to calculate the damage received by the boss in real time and gradually scale the penalty up based on that accumulated number, players will (correctly) scramble to find ways to deal lethal damage all at once, since the first hit effectively isn't penalized.

If you include critical hits in the formula you're probably going to end up applying an averaged-out penalty to what is, in reality, a random effect. But if you DON'T include critical hits then critical hit weapons become insanely privileged vs. bosses (which is the current state of affairs for most damage attenuated bosses, by the way).

Now multiply that by every other form of damage multiplication in the game (including all the ones that are unique one-off frame abilities or quirks of one particular gun). Trying to play whack-a-mole with exceptions to damage attenuation is both pointless -- the game's just too complicated -- but also kind of garbage even when it works, because "fixing" the exceptions usually means player-invalidating decisions like "fine, we'll just make them completely immune to Banshee Sonar."

It's also probably why they don't publicize the formula -- if people knew exactly how it worked they could find the seams much more easily. But the formula being this complete unknown means that the boss battle, as a skill challenge, is testing you on information you don't know and can't realistically learn. And that sucks if your primary motivation for playing is "I want to get better at the game."

Very well said! Just quoting to draw more people's attention to this comment.

 

EDIT:

Putting some other quotes into one post:

22 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You'd need 10x more throws without the bugged interaction here, at which point Void Strike would also be long gone. So yea, bad example. If you want to illustrate a point, don't use bugged interactions. Use something that is actually intended.

So what I hear you saying is that if the bugged interaction were fixed, Reb would literally just have to spray the boss with a status primer first before oneshotting it.

Yall acting like the video is somehow an unrealistic buggy case, when in reality it's a good example of an experienced player holding back.
Imagine if the boss were actually status-primed first.
Imagine if a bit of combo were built up.
Imagine if Reb had used Redeemer Prime instead of Glaive.
Imagine if Reb had used Redeemer Prime instead of Glaive and actually aimed for the head.
Imagine if Reb had three other teammates all casting separately multiplicative buffs on her.

 

22 hours ago, Erra said:

Have you tried mapping the player's damage to a curve with diminishing returns (slowly flattens out) at higher damage values?

As others have already said, this is literally exactly what damage attenuation already does. There's this rumour going around of "strong weapons are actualy WEAKER than weak weapons!! wtf de???", and parroting it without testing seems to be the latest fad. I have not seen the faintest shred of evidence to indicate that this is actually true.

As an example, here's a plot of what damage attenuation against a Demolyst looks like, based on the wiki formula. (I cut off the plot at 35000 DPS, but basically the slope is totally constant after 20000 DPS.)

PFyC4m4.png

Notice how attenuated (i.e. actual) DPS never drops when your weapon gets stronger. This is the whole point of damage attenuation-- strong weapons are still stronger than weak weapons, but just less so than usual.

 

22 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

What if instead of taking away the "million damage excitement", you give the Archons a flexible amount of health? It would be the inverse effect of Damage Attenuation.

In the vunerable phase everyone in squad attacks as best they can, all the damage information is collected > but not applied. Then you use the invulnerability phase to calculate and reach average damage potential for the squad. Then you give Archon enough health to last 20-25 minutes (when combined with their superpowers and invulnerability mechanics).

The result is that the solo players and low-damage/non-meta squads will take approximately the same time to beat the Archon as the meta squad that is doing millions-upon-millions of damage.

Is that do-able? Archons are the closest we've gotten to "tough raid style" bosses in a long time. It would be good to have a variable stats feature that adjusts to the squad composition.

This is kind of akin to calculating damage attenuation based on measured DPS, instead of a pre-calculated "theoretical" DPS. It sounds nice in theory, but in practice players would just clear the first phase with weak weapons and then blitz through the rest with stronger guns.

Calculating damage attenuation based on a weapon's "theoretical" DPS is unfortunately the best option we have, IMO. There are a lot of things that the formula does not account for (e.g. final damage multipliers that aren't accounted for, additional instances of damage that aren't accounted for, mag size and reload speed not being accounted for, physical upper limits to how fast one can fire a semi-auto weapon, etc.), but my suggestion would be to simply update the "theoretical" DPS formulae to account for these things. And keep on updating it as exceptions are discovered, until there's eventually nothing left to update.

Edited by shut
Added quotes into this post so I'm not just spamming this thread with each new comment I want to make.
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4 hours ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

Fair, but that doesn't make it right or good design.

Oh it's definitely not a well designed mechanic.  But it should be expected that DE isn't going to put anything about it in the game at all.

I suspect if the info was there in front of every player, as a hover pop up that could be clicked to read about understand, many people would be less likely to instantly react "health bar damage sponge" because the vast majority of players have no idea what Attenuation is or how it works.

But information in the game is not something DE does.

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57 minutes ago, shut said:

A lot of things well.

What I see from your post (and the OP from Reb) is that edge cases due to certain weapons and skills interacting with each other cause fights like this so those edge cases don't one shot the boss.  I'm LR2 but am absolutely no expert on all the weapons and frames.  But how many edge cases are there?  Is it just Glaives?  Is it just certain weapons with Chroma?  I know there's an answer, and I know I have no idea what it is.  I don't even know if DE does.

But the obvious solution, and while simple in concept is surely not simple in execution, is to balance the game.  Something that many players have been asking for for years.  But something that hasn't ever really been attempted (at least well) ever.  If it's 5% of skills and 5% of weapons, or whatever, temporarily disable them while they get reworked so we don't get incredibly tedious/boring/unfun boss fights.  All very common descriptions of many WF bosses, especially including Boreal, and generally all complaints center around nerfing strong players/builds with Attenuation, immunities and drawn out immunity phases (like waiting for the spawns in the Equinox boss fight).  All seemingly based on the idea that the fight should take X amount of time no matter how geared someone is, so here's an uninteresting wall to stall you.

I know it's never going to happen, but the situation DE is in is completely DE's fault for never really paying attention to balance in any meaningful way.  Just look at frame balance, and how certain frames are clearly OP for so many situations, and yet new frames that come out, that are weaker in pretty much every instance, still get nerfed shortly afterwards (I'm think Gyre here, but there are others).  And yet the OP frames don't get touched.  Weapons are the same.

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