Veilbreaker: Launch & Hot Topics

[ABlindGuyPlays]

On 2022-09-10 at 4:00 PM, l_Azrael_l said:

This were we get teleported to after destroying the generators against the last archon, different loadouts, across platforms, both with drifter and operators, 

Holy S#&$ you got teleported to the SUN.

Honestly an ariel dual while dodging coronal flares sounds pretty badass asa backdrop.

[Hodor_Roe]

I'm sure you've heard this a thousand times already, but the damage attenuation formulas are whack as hell. As it currently stands, your average sidearm build does more damage with a blank mod slot instead of Hornet Strike. From my understanding, the goal of damage attenuation is to bring high dps builds in line with lower dps builds while maintaining their advantage, just to a lesser degree. Consider capping the resistance from damage attenuation. Personally, I have several builds that get reduced down to one damage per hit instead of their usual millions of damage per hit.

Damage attenuation has been a problem since it was introduced, but I'm glad that you finally introduced an enemy tanky enough with attenuation for people to actually take notice.

TLDR: cap resistance from attenuation at something like 90% or better yet, eliminate the system altogether and stop trying to make one size fits all content. It just doesn't work in a game like Warframe. It isn't a problem to have content that not all players can approach, it is a problem to have content that requires players to make their builds worse.

[ReaverKane]

On 2022-09-09 at 7:22 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

P.S As an example & for transparency, here is what Archon Fights look like without any damage formulas. If we increase their health so Glaives don't one-shot them, they become near unkillable with other weapons. It'll be a tough problem to solve, but for perspective, this is what we don't want either. 

Make the fights damage agnostic.
AKA we kill bosses by performing some sort of action or mechanic (kinda like angels, exploiter, or the zeloid prelate have stages where warframe damage is negated, and its about mechanics). The original archon fights during the new war were great (2/3 of them at least) exactly because we didn't fight them with the warframes.

Good boss fights are about mechanics, not about how much damage it takes, making them a bullet sponge doesn't make the fight any better. I mean it was nice for the kinda challenge (i just grabbed rhino and whatever weapons i was already using, so it was not as optimized as could be) and the novelty, but its going to become boring pretty fast.

Because, i mean, you guys been doing this for 10 years, right? Still didn't figure out how wildly experiences will be with warframes? We had people complaining about being unable to kill the Wolf of Saturn 6 while i was doing his hunt missions in less than 1 minute, one-shooting him with valkyr.
Mods are amazing, but they do create a lot of variability, so you need to get rid of it, not by nerfs or making bullet sponges, or make it knock everything back like the profit taker. Make it based on mechanics. Make him vulnerable only at certain times, make the fight about not getting damaged until you can do damage back. Jesus, just go play WoW, GW2, or Lost Ark and bring a note pad.
 

[(PSN)Sevro230]

These changes have all been nice, and i can't wait for Khal's missions to drop along with the next Archon hunt, but could you maybe take a look at how seemingly the operator/drifter's ephemera and head cosmetics have been broken? for example the ephemeras do not care for any of your suit color options anymore, And the face cosmetics ignore your energy color. In fact, the energy color seems to be broken entirely what with it only applying the suit and removing any personality from your ability colors.

Also, sometimes in sanctuary onslaught the starting portal just straight up Will not appear, forcing the mission to be soft-locked unless you abort mission, which is just a waste of time because being stuck in a loading screen only for you to have to immediately go through another two just to get to your destination

Speaking of soft-locks, There's a glitch that's been sometimes happening to me upon going from operator to Warframe, where i can't shoot, use abilities, go into operator or dodge roll or melee unless i fall into a void out. (e.i. water in the plains, falling into space, etc.) i don't know why it's been happening but it's been mostly in zariman that it's happened to me

[Grav_Starstrider]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)Sevro230 said:

but could you maybe take a look at how seemingly the operator/drifter's ephemera and head cosmetics have been broken? for example the ephemeras do not care for any of your suit color options anymore, And the face cosmetics ignore your energy color. In fact, the energy color seems to be broken entirely what with it only applying the suit and removing any personality from your ability colors.

There's no "seemingly" about it, it's a straight up bug for everyone afaik.

[CopperBezel]

Even the Operator / Drifter switch button is in default blue now. It was always weird that "Operator suit energy" sounded like it meant suit emissives, but also applied to all operator energy effects. But now it really does only change the emissives and everything else is default, from holographic oculi to all operator focus ability casts, which are themselves all the same cyan because they were seemingly never intended to be seen in default colors in the first place. 

[CopperBezel]

Unrelated to my previous post, but I can't find a better place to put this, since operator-oriented changes in Veilbreaker don't have a megathread.

Energy wisps from Emergence Dissipate do not contribute (and have never contributed) to Warframe energy when picked up as the operator. That was annoying for an arcane that was designed to give the Operator a focus-independent means of granting energy to the warframe before Veilbreaker, but somewhat understandable on the basis that the energy wisps were just smaller energy orbs. Now, however, energy restore orbs do contribute energy to the warframe when picked up as the Operator. 

ED energy wisps need to follow the new rules of regular energy orbs and grant warframe energy when picked up as the operator. A workaround would have been desirable before Veilbreaker added this property to energy orbs, but now there's not even a workaround needed, the system only needs to be made consistent. 

[uritinum]

hm... changes are good enough but still there is something that isnt entering on my head right now... ( personal opinion )

Kahl's garrison will be weekly such as achon hunts, i get it but it cant be more frequently? like... void-touched crystals is a RNG and since we wil need lots of crystals to build up our frames, weekly will be pretty like: enter the game grabs a BFG, BRRRRR the wall of flesh till we rip him appart, grab his loot and dissapear waiting the next week. 

the rest of the update will be nice cause there is only 3 weapons that make the mission " unboring ", hope in a future snipers and other weapons have your spot too, sniper have a pretty old system that only works on eidolons RN.. not really usable on normal missions.

And 2 questions for you DE, do you have any plans on reverting void-dash back? sling doenst fit on the actual gameplay, only inside angel's battle on zariman, 

and the second one is, i know tenno have AOE weapons, but stagger on tennos are really frustating... in the future will have something to make this feature less frustating? :/ 

 

Ty for your attention and hope DE see that.

[Uhkretor]

On 2022-09-10 at 7:44 AM, JaMoricharXi said:

Archon hunt is way too difficult for solo players for now.

... You literally have a video above this post of yours showing that its not...

And, I can confirm that its not, and I use different weapons...

[CopperBezel]

It's definitely not difficult. If you don't use the buffed weapon or one of the Incarnon weapons that ignores the damage attenuation, it's an unbearably endless slog of boredom, but it's certainly not any more difficult than SP or a tricky sortie. 

Another oddity....

The text isn't wrong, the buff does indeed apply to channeling efficiency (and not, say, heavy attack efficiency) but it's an odd historical detail to bring up now considering that channeling efficiency does not in fact exist

[Grimm]

how i changed playing is to run weapons that dont care about ammo aka zariman weapons. 

[CopperBezel]

I needed a kitgun primary with Pax Charge to get through Boreal. Nothing else has ammo reserves equal to that punishment. 

[Messkoo]

Le 09/09/2022 à 20:22, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

P.S As an example & for transparency, here is what Archon Fights look like without any damage formulas. If we increase their health so Glaives don't one-shot them, they become near unkillable with other weapons. It'll be a tough problem to solve, but for perspective, this is what we don't want either.

It's more the slash status effect the issue, may be changing how Damage Over Time is working. Actualy there is one tic every second, making some time, like your example, some very big tic, bypassing boss mechanics/immunity etc. Maybe changing the damage over time not working with "tic" of damage, but something regular from the start to the end of the damage over time. With this, limits/immunity of some boss can't be bypassed.

The second issue, is still with DOT, and how some boss (liche/acolyte/archon) have status resistance, it's limited to 4 for each status effect. For debuff status it work well, but for DOT status, it make weapon/ability with a very hight single damage far more powerfull than a weapon with  less damage but greater fire rate. Changing this limitation can  help solving issue. something like : No quantity limitation for DOT status effect, but limited to x% per second of the maximum life of the target. For each different status effect. With this, you will not have abusive DOT on boss.  High fire rate weapon will still be useful too.

[mikakor]

still no answer about the unjustified flat nerf to Primary Merciless? 

[uberfu]

IDK ... I went into last weeks (first mission after update) with a Primary and Secondary w/ Crit builds w/ a range of damage types > slash > puncture > impact + a range of elemetal damage across the booard. I'm (as of this post MR27 and been around for a while); went in Co-Op w/ 3 other hgih MR players. It took all of us 30 minutes to strip down the health for the last fight (little by little). We all ran out of ammo constantly - reverted to Melee / Abilities until we could drop more ammo pads. I remembered my Arch gun towards the end so that finally helped a bit.

The fight was not hard; just super tedious because the target health pool was seemingly excessively high and barely dropped over time. Something like ~35 minutes and yes it got boring trying to burn down the health pool.

@DE: If Glaives are doing what is shown in the video clip - there si already precedent in game - lock Glaives and sniper rifles out of the Archon Hunts (temporarily) until you all can figure out a balance solution. You do it in Sorties all the time.

[uberfu]

On 2022-09-09 at 2:26 PM, LillyRaccune said:

1) We called for Kahl, and you answered. Thank you!

2) There were some damage immunity parts to Boreal that I didn't understand. Like the spinning pyramid thing... Not sure how to actually fight back while he is invulnerable.

3-A) I agree that more than 90% of the gun arsenal has been buffed because of having greater pickups. I appreciate that.

3-B) Some guns are just too darn powerful. Some guns are more powerful than archguns, that's not fair to the players that had to fight to unlock them!

(2) Really ? That took literally 2 seconds to figure out that you shoot the globes in the corner until they explode. Tag all 4 and the pyramid disappears and back to the regular fight.

(3-B) DE has MR locked weapons - but most MR locks stop around ~MR14 or so ... And some are gated behind certain content. Some of the more powerful weapons DE could implement a higher MR lock.  ALSO - a bunch of new weapons (not sure if they're more powerful or not) are locked behind more difficult higher level content.  I'm not seeing any MR5s or MR10s in the Zaramin content at all. And not too many hanging out in Veil Proxima missions either (at least w/o a higher MR escort).

You can't drop Plat on Tenet weapons (and even if a low MR player somehow games the Granum Void to activate a Parvos Sister) They'll likely have trouble beating the Sister as she levels up.

Point is ... DE has plenty of gate mechanics built into the game already - they could easily add in more restrictions based on MR or some other metric between new/low level players and high MR players.

[LillyRaccune]

2 hours ago, uberfu said:

(2) Really ? That took literally 2 seconds to figure out that you shoot the globes in the corner until they explode. Tag all 4 and the pyramid disappears and back to the regular fight.

That's not very nice. No it wasn't obvious to me, I was busy ressing people. And Boreal was floating at the top of a lumpy grineer structure, half in a wall. I couldn't see jack all and he refused to move. Not fun.

2 hours ago, uberfu said:

(3-B) DE has MR locked weapons - but most MR locks stop around ~MR14 or so ... And some are gated behind certain content. Some of the more powerful weapons DE could implement a higher MR lock.  ALSO - a bunch of new weapons (not sure if they're more powerful or not) are locked behind more difficult higher level content.  I'm not seeing any MR5s or MR10s in the Zaramin content at all. And not too many hanging out in Veil Proxima missions either (at least w/o a higher MR escort).

You can't drop Plat on Tenet weapons (and even if a low MR player somehow games the Granum Void to activate a Parvos Sister) They'll likely have trouble beating the Sister as she levels up.

Point is ... DE has plenty of gate mechanics built into the game already - they could easily add in more restrictions based on MR or some other metric between new/low level players and high MR players.

Players can start killing their Lich/Sister as soon as they finish The War Within (if they trade for the requiems they can start after The Second Dream). NONE of the Lich/Sister weapons are MR locked despite having a MR requirement listed. Lots of players get carried in public missions, so killing the Lich/Sisters isn't a problem for them either.

Versus the Archgun Launcher that requires Old Mate rank to unlock. Sure raising the MR might work, but it doesn't balance the weapon power levels.

[AegidiusF]

Le 09/09/2022 à 20:22, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Answers to these questions will guide next steps. We will not revert things to allow automated play (i.e Wukong’s Celestial Twin changes are remaining), but we will review how the ammo and Upgrade changes to player weapons are feeling and performing.

Not allowing automated gameplay is really a good thing, and the same goes for disruptive gameplays.

But, in my opinion, the Ammo changes were too much. Many of my single-target are suffering from it.

Many non-AoE on my arsenal are now much less played : I run out of ammo everytime I use my Phantasma (Primed Ammo Mutation equipped) and the same for my Felarx.

Before the Veilbreaker update, Phantasma suffered a bit from ammo problems, as it has a very high fire rate. Now, it's worse.

Even my Cyanex, which was supposed not to be affected by the changes is suffering.

To be honest, now I'm relying much more on ranged melee : glaives, wolf sledge, gunblades.

Sorry, but I feel like all the time I spent to put 8 Forma on my Phantasma and 6 on my Cyanex, farming Steel Path Arcanes to improve them and also farming some Mods was an absolute waste of time.

[AegidiusF]

Le 15/09/2022 à 06:58, LillyRaccune a dit :

That's not very nice. No it wasn't obvious to me, I was busy ressing people. And Boreal was floating at the top of a lumpy grineer structure, half in a wall. I couldn't see jack all and he refused to move. Not fun.

Oh ! So, I wasn't the only one who felt a bit confused on the Archon fight.

I thought that, perhaps, I didn't understood very well what to do because I'm not a native English speaker (French and Portuguese are my main languages) and the instructions were given in English by the Lotus. But perhaps I'm wrong and the Archon figth needs some improvement.

[ElRighto]

В 10.09.2022 в 14:43, TheOlright сказал:

I remember that day, when me and my best friend finally archived Hyena nod on the starchart and how surprised we were, that despite our best efforts we wasn't able to kill it. We tried different combos, but the result was always the same, no matter, what. And yes, we though, that we were doing "something wrong", but not because boss were too strong - we were too weak. So I went and checked forums (or reddit), and found out about boltor and 30% puncture card. So we farmed some recourses for a few days, crafted it and bam, Hyena died on the first try. And we were freaking happy about it - we put some effort into aquiring something, and it payed off many times.

I was there 3000 years ago...

 

В 10.09.2022 в 14:43, TheOlright сказал:

Make hordes 10x smaller

Make enemies 10x tougher

Make headshots x10 stronger

Make slash procs x10 weaker

Hm-m-m... Wait, that could fix Octavia's gigantic damage, Equinox's map-wide destruction, and Mesa's massive humiliation. Of course, Ash will whine like a beaten dog. But after all the changes, this is the main gameplay for Ash.

 

В 10.09.2022 в 14:43, TheOlright сказал:

Remove overguard from the game, so you will not be oneshotted, while you stun crowd with your favorite glasscannon frame (it's been half a year since new eximuses were implemented, still hate them and sure it will not go ever, just like nullifiers)

Take the Eximus Nullifier, put it on top of the Eximus Bursa, tie the Eximus Ancient Healer under the bottom. And those who can overcome this rubbish can be banned until 2035 for cheating. Obviously the players will do it the wrong way.  Unbalanced.  

Balance is very important.

[Numerounius]

On 2022-09-09 at 11:22 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Between damage attenuation, certain exploits, or bugs causing instant damage, and more, we will be prioritizing our gameplay and feedback review to make this boss fight experience better. There is a chasm between people who find them too easy and those who find them impossible, and trying to balance this divide will inform parts of our plans. We want to make the bosses we want to fight. We are all on the same page on the quest for the right balance. 

We are continuing to review under the structure of:
- Is something too dominant (am I ‘playing wrong’ for not using it)?
- Is something allowing truly automated play?
- Is something disrupting others from playing in their playstyle?

So there has been nothing to make the gameplay experience any better since their introduction or even since the Sisters of Parvos update for damage attenuation. Is DE still aware of the awful experience that is of brining in certain weapons that can dish out high amounts of continuous damage to the fight compared to bringing in a weapon that can do burst damage with a high amount of Multishot?