Take a hit DE

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

Simply put, when people start developing an understanding of a game, they usually start planning how they wish to play.  They see some goal on the horizon, set their sights to it, and plot a path.  Some may even seek an understanding of the developer's overarching design goals so as to plot the most meaningful path to whatever goal they set.

The problem with this update is, IMO, that the gun nerf was simply too broad and all-encompassing.  Take @(NSW)fonglis' account here.  They are mid-game, and still working their way through Steel Path.  They have plans to collect Acolyte Arcanes and Steel Essence so they can further level up their equipment.  They are now struggling to solo content they were previously able to do, and will have to put their plans on hold to collect and level another set of equipment to do the job.  I would be pissed too, if I were in their shoes.

It's really easy to dismiss others' complaints as "har har, just a bunch of salty AFK Wukong players!" when you already have everything and are swimming in resources.  But put yourself in another players' shoes, try to remember what it was like going through the game, and maybe we can all develop a better understanding of the current situation.

And even if you are swimming in resources and plat its kind if a giant L to your time investment. 

 

[(NSW)fonglis]

il y a 2 minutes, Kaggelos a dit :

I know i may come off as weird, but this sounds like paradise to me! I almost always welcome hurdles that test my skill in a game. 

Might be a matter of taste in the end.

Doesnt matter though, the game WAS promoting a playstyle that was... well, boring.

In the case of the update it's not skill test but optimisation problems.

You can't kill pack of mob with aoe weapons anymore because you're not optimized to counter the ammo nerf and your non aoe weapons aren't optimised enough to fight back efficiency because they are not optimized .

But to optimize them you need steel essence and arcane so you need to do steel path mission , but I don't want to start a mission where i need to take 5m to clean a single room if i don't play saryn or octavia because my weapons are not enough anymore.

Warframe is a game with swift gameplay , where we advance through the tileset with speed , not a game where we're stuck in 1 room for 5m in non endless mission

[Crash-Override]

28 minutes ago, trst said:

No geral, suspeito que DE ignorará a birra. De acordo com os números, a contagem de jogadores aumentou desde a atualização e ainda não começou a diminuir, como sempre acontece. O que é estranho, considerando que o único conteúdo "novo" aqui é uma missão única e uma única missão semanal.

A maioria dos jogadores deve terminar com a atualização e, no entanto, parece que os jogadores continuam a jogar o jogo, algo que normalmente não vemos sem uma adição massiva de conteúdo. É quase como se algo mais tivesse mudado que eles estão gostando no jogo agora.

Honestly, you can still use AOE weapons and you can still easily play any high-level content even using single target weapons since armor strip is easier!

[Kaggelos]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

And even if you are swimming in resources and plat its kind if a giant L to your time investment. 

 

Personally i'd invest in the game if it was fun.

And now it is, for me at least ^^

[Crash-Override]

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

And even if you are swimming in resources and plat its kind if a giant L to your time investment. 

 

Nah, folks are still clearing entire rooms quickly even without AOE weapons, you'll survive!

[Kaggelos]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)fonglis said:

but I don't want to start a mission where i need to take 5m to clean a single room

Agreed, to an extend (although personally i wouldnt mind if there was danger involved!)

Some enemies should be cleared easily, others can take time. I dont want every group of enemies to die at the drop of a hat, with no downtime.

Spice things up a bit ^^ 

[OniDax]

On 2022-09-09 at 4:03 PM, PrimalordialBob said:

Blame DE for the incredibly repetitive playstyle rather than players finding a way to not engage with that playstyle. 

The whole reason this is even an issue is because the core gameplay of Warframe is, quite frankly, bad. Warframe is a mediocre shooter. It's a mediocre melee action game. It's a mediocre spaceship game. It's a mediocre loot game. It's a mediocre story-driven game. What Warframe has going for it is the diversity of gameplay it offers, the unique art design (which is still hit or miss) and customization system (which lets you color different parts of the mesh), and the sheer amount of stuff it has (a lot of which is forgotten fodder content). But everything it does is mediocre at best, trash at worst, imo. DE has this problem of trying to balance the game and balance how players engage with their game, when the underlying reasons why players choose to engage with the game in a certain way have to do with how DE has designed Warframe.

DE needs take a look at why players do what they do in the game, and not just try to course correct player actions. And then they need to work to correct the thing that causes players to play the game the way they play. That starts with overhauling the core gameplay experience and bringing to the game a focus on gunplay and melee gameplay as the primary element to draw and keep players. Maybe the game shouldn't be all about collecting junk. Maybe the main reason to play the game should actually be the gameplay, not the loot, not the cosmetics, not the wackiness of the story: the core gameplay. DE should improve the core gameplay such that it is as good as it possibly can be.

That means overhauling animations, sound design, movement mechanics (not just bullet jumping and aim gliding but how the character moves), gunplay mechanics (how guns shoot, how recoil works, how weapon modification works, how aiming works - to include ADS which would open up more possibilities for gameplay, especially boss fights), melee mechanics (not just hack and slash but more involved block-and-parry-based melee gameplay, and not just player mechanics but enemy melee mechanics as well), enemy and friendly AI behavior, map design, mission design, etc. Instead of just adding more content to the game, DE needs to refine and rework the core gameplay experience first.

Then they can refine different weapon systems in the game to align with a modernized shooter and action melee gameplay experience. As long as Warframe includes 20-year-old, outdated gameplay mechanics and systems, DE won't ever be able to sufficiently balance the content in the game.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 hours ago, (NSW)fonglis said:

 

You can't kill pack of mob with aoe weapons anymore because you're not optimized to counter the ammo nerf and your non aoe weapons aren't optimised enough to fight back efficiency because they are not optimized .

But to optimize them you need steel essence and arcane so you need to do steel path mission , but I don't want to start a mission where i need to take 5m to clean a single room if i don't play saryn or octavia because my weapons are not enough anymore.

Warframe is a game with swift gameplay , where we advance through the tileset with speed , not a game where we're stuck in 1 room for 5m in non endless mission

Hyperbole much. Lmao. 

[Currilicious]

On 2022-09-10 at 4:03 AM, PrimalordialBob said:

It's pretty clear the community does not like this.

I like this update though. So I think it's pretty unclear if people liked it or not.

There is the loud section complaining about their crutchstick being broken and then there is the silent group just getting on with it.

I would suggest less hyperbole if you want to make credible points.

[Ethorin]

2 hours ago, (NSW)fonglis said:

In the case of the update it's not skill test but optimisation problems.

You can't kill pack of mob with aoe weapons anymore because you're not optimized to counter the ammo nerf and your non aoe weapons aren't optimised enough to fight back efficiency because they are not optimized .

But to optimize them you need steel essence and arcane so you need to do steel path mission , but I don't want to start a mission where i need to take 5m to clean a single room if i don't play saryn or octavia because my weapons are not enough anymore.

NATARUK.

 

Basic set up, no arcanes, no SP or Arbi mods, grab a Nezha who hasn't subsumed over Warding Halo, you won't die unless you do something stupid/go for a long time in endless and you should be able to reliably kill basically anything.

[(PSN)v-DEVILSOWN-v]

Glad I started playing the game when there was no primed mods,no galv mods,no arcanes aoe was useless you guys have no idea how easy you still got it

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, MqToasty said:

Well, that might be true if you started early and played the game as DE slowly added stuff to it.  But if you started a bit later (I only started 2 years ago), then by mid-game (say, past the end of the Star Chart and before you clear SP Star Chart) you will definitely have accumulated enough resources to acquire and heavily invest in the weapons that are hit hardest by this nerf.

As I wrote in another thread, overall I am just very puzzled by DE's decision to buff guns for a year, only to nerf them to the ground now.  When I was mid-game, the meta was either "prime with ranged weapon, then kill with melee", or some exotic frame-based build that I just did not have the mods and resources for (Khora and Ash come to mind, but there were definitely more).

I will venture to guess that most players who reached the mid-game after the gun buff invested most of their resources into the top guns so they can take on Steel Path.  Now that they're half way through SP, the tools they relied on to progress in the game have suddenly been neutered.  They would have to put whatever plans they had on hold, go back to grind for a good primer, and go back to grind for a good melee before they can progress in the game.  I can only imagine how much it sucks for them.

But at that point, what exactly changed for them in the patch. I asked you before, what exactly do we have access to that they dont have aside from a few primed elemental mods? Only ammo and radius were touched in the patch for AoE guns. If they used something like Kuva Zarr and relied on 35 max ammo instead of 10, their kill speed was likely not up to snuff to farm Steel Path earlier or progress on their own. They probably relied on others in the group already at that point. And without relying on a gun arcane (I did so accidenatlly after swapping in dex), Zarr still kills perfectly fine in Steel Path even versus Grineer/Corrupted (did a void fissure without the arcane), and not having access to a primed elemental mod doesnt change that kill potential much. The mods needed are pretty darn basic and easily obtainable if people are at midgame. And if they skipped Arbitrations and went straight to SP, well that is on them since Arbis are obviously earlier progression due to far lower monster levels and without seperate unique scaling. So they should have all the galv mods we have at that point aswell.

So I'll ask again, what is it that we have access to that they dont which dramatically alters damage output to the point of having to rely on several times more ammo?

[MqToasty]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I asked you before, what exactly do we have access to that they dont have aside from a few primed elemental mods?

I thought I already answered this question, but perhaps I was not clear that it was the answer to your question: "Back when I was in the mid-game, I lacked slots, potatoes, leveled mods (endo/credits) and forma."

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Only ammo and radius were touched in the patch for AoE guns.

First of all, I think we need to agree on a definition of "AoE guns".  I define "AoE guns" as explosive weapons that can damage enemies in a volume without the projectile hitting them directly -- basically explosive weapons.  Another player in another thread defined "AoE guns" as any weapon that can hit more than one enemy with one shot (so to them a Rubico with innate punch through is also an AoE gun).  Which definition do you subscribe to?

The problem with this update, as I see it, is that it affects way more than just (my definition) AoE guns.  The Ammo Maximum nerfs, the Merciless nerfs, and the (since rolled back) battery nerfs affect any currently-viable gun that can kill on Steel Path, and then some.  For example, I swapped in Pax Charge for Pax Seeker on my Vermisplicer primary because I got sick and tired of it running out of ammo during the Archon Defense mission.  I can afford to do this because I already have a full set of Pax Arcanes, but many mid-game players probably do not even have a potato'd, 6-forma Vermisplicer primary with a riven, let alone all the Pax Arcanes.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If they used something like Kuva Zarr and relied on 35 max ammo instead of 10, their kill speed was likely not up to snuff to farm Steel Path earlier or progress on their own. They probably relied on others in the group already at that point. And without relying on a gun arcane (I did so accidenatlly after swapping in dex), Zarr still kills perfectly fine in Steel Path even versus Grineer/Corrupted (did a void fissure without the arcane), and not having access to a primed elemental mod doesnt change that kill potential much. The mods needed are pretty darn basic and easily obtainable if people are at midgame. And if they skipped Arbitrations and went straight to SP, well that is on them since Arbis are obviously earlier progression due to far lower monster levels and without seperate unique scaling. So they should have all the galv mods we have at that point aswell.

I do not think that is a fair assessment.  With only 10 Max Ammo, there is a good chance that they will have lulls where they run out and cannot fire their weapon.  And if they do not have a tweaked secondary or melee (remember they need potatoes, mods and maybe even forma)?  They'll probably die from the hoards on SP.

The gun buff a year ago made it so it was viable to just have 1 very, very good gun.  It probably got many early- and mid-game players to plot a path of progression where they would invest all of their resources into that incredible gun, and use that incredible gun to collect resources and build up the other parts of their arsenal.  But this update pulled the rug from under their feet and now they have to abandon whatever plans they had, and take a big step back.  Needless to say, that's not the best of feelings.

[Cegrin]

15 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

I do not think that is a fair assessment.  With only 10 Max Ammo, there is a good chance that they will have lulls where they run out and cannot fire their weapon.  And if they do not have a tweaked secondary or melee (remember they need potatoes, mods and maybe even forma)?  They'll probably die from the hoards on SP.

...Bruh, Steel Path is for min-max bragging rights.  It's less end-game content than it is bonus-boss challenge quests.  If you don't have the potatoes or forma to make even a handful of decently kitted out frames/gear, then you are not ready for Steel Path.  To assume otherwise is like complaining that your party can't beat a Tarrasque at level 10.  No duh.  It's designed to be tough at level 20, so getting stomped (perhaps literally) at level 10 is quite expected. 

Never mind that resources for gear drop like candy, forma have always been readily available from relics and potatoes are now easily accessible through Nightwave (as of writing, I can buy another 6 from Nora), so amending that problem isn't exactly the tall hurdle you're implying. 

[Ethorin]

50 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

I can afford to do this because I already have a full set of Pax Arcanes, but many mid-game players probably do not even have a potato'd, 6-forma Vermisplicer primary with a riven, let alone all the Pax Arcanes.

...the Pax Arcanes are the easiest part of that to get ahold of, especially compared to "specific Riven". Like, I got those because I wanted something to spend my Fortuna Standing on in like, a week of undedicated farming. Pax Arcanes are the opposite of a restraint. Like, you should absolutely have all the Pax Arcanes if you want to go into Steel Path just as part of "accruing tools" prior to Steel Path.

 

If you're the sort of player who beelines everything following a guide I guess your tools will probably be pretty restrained... but like... so? Beelining isn't something MOST long term games reward. If you are going to beeline then sure, your account will be highly vulnerable to meta shifts, that's a reason to not beeline in general, not a reason for the Devs to NOT nerf a meta they deem unhealthy, especially not when they have numbers like "47% of weapons usage is FIVE GUNS, and all of those guns are basically the same thing".

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, MqToasty said:

I thought I already answered this question, but perhaps I was not clear that it was the answer to your question: "Back when I was in the mid-game, I lacked slots, potatoes, leveled mods (endo/credits) and forma."

First of all, I think we need to agree on a definition of "AoE guns".  I define "AoE guns" as explosive weapons that can damage enemies in a volume without the projectile hitting them directly -- basically explosive weapons.  Another player in another thread defined "AoE guns" as any weapon that can hit more than one enemy with one shot (so to them a Rubico with innate punch through is also an AoE gun).  Which definition do you subscribe to?

The problem with this update, as I see it, is that it affects way more than just (my definition) AoE guns.  The Ammo Maximum nerfs, the Merciless nerfs, and the (since rolled back) battery nerfs affect any currently-viable gun that can kill on Steel Path, and then some.  For example, I swapped in Pax Charge for Pax Seeker on my Vermisplicer primary because I got sick and tired of it running out of ammo during the Archon Defense mission.  I can afford to do this because I already have a full set of Pax Arcanes, but many mid-game players probably do not even have a potato'd, 6-forma Vermisplicer primary with a riven, let alone all the Pax Arcanes.

I do not think that is a fair assessment.  With only 10 Max Ammo, there is a good chance that they will have lulls where they run out and cannot fire their weapon.  And if they do not have a tweaked secondary or melee (remember they need potatoes, mods and maybe even forma)?  They'll probably die from the hoards on SP.

The gun buff a year ago made it so it was viable to just have 1 very, very good gun.  It probably got many early- and mid-game players to plot a path of progression where they would invest all of their resources into that incredible gun, and use that incredible gun to collect resources and build up the other parts of their arsenal.  But this update pulled the rug from under their feet and now they have to abandon whatever plans they had, and take a big step back.  Needless to say, that's not the best of feelings.

Then they arent at a point where they do the content and get the items that were nerfed. Because with what you describe they really shouldnt do liches/sisters or sp, heck barely arbitrations even. And if they do that content they dont do it effectively, neither pre- nor post- patch. AoE guns, especially the kuva weapons, were already viable for Steel Path prior to the addition of galv mods and weapon arcanes. So those were already viable without 2x the ammo size or more. Bramma was viable with the current ammo maximum and ammo pick up, since those changes went in when Bramma was nerfed the first time. And since Zarr hits about as hard and has slightly more ammo, there shouldnt be any problem there either in content that was done perfectly fine prior to galv mods and arcanes were introduced. The same also applies to Knukor, so should also apply to Tenet Cycron and other weapons of similar strength.

 

[cute_moth.npc]

D.E. taking a hit: bubbling sounds intensify

I hope they are feeling nice and chill after working hard on bringing out Veilbreaker, just remember to get off the couch long enough to give us the Kahl missions next week okay? 

[MqToasty]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then they arent at a point where they do the content and get the items that were nerfed. Because with what you describe they really shouldnt do liches/sisters or sp, heck barely arbitrations even. And if they do that content they dont do it effectively, neither pre- nor post- patch. AoE guns, especially the kuva weapons, were already viable for Steel Path prior to the addition of galv mods and weapon arcanes. So those were already viable without 2x the ammo size or more. Bramma was viable with the current ammo maximum and ammo pick up, since those changes went in when Bramma was nerfed the first time. And since Zarr hits about as hard and has slightly more ammo, there shouldnt be any problem there either in content that was done perfectly fine prior to galv mods and arcanes were introduced. The same also applies to Knukor, so should also apply to Tenet Cycron and other weapons of similar strength.

And yet DE's gun buff from a year ago precisely made it possible for mid-game players like the ones I described to take on SP and do Liches.  By what authority do you claim they should not?  Sure, they are not nearly as effective as you or I, with our tweaked gear and maxed mods.  But if you read the account of that mid-game player earlier in this thread, you'll see that this nerf has precisely dumped them into the predicament I am describing to you.

It is very easy to forget and dismiss the struggles others are facing, especially when you either never had to deal with it or are long past dealing with it.  Please try to understand that each one of us have different motivations for playing, have different capabilities, and are at different stages of the game.  What is not a big deal for you or me just might be a big deal for someone else.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, MqToasty said:

And yet DE's gun buff from a year ago precisely made it possible for mid-game players like the ones I described to take on SP and do Liches.  By what authority do you claim they should not?  Sure, they are not nearly as effective as you or I, with our tweaked gear and maxed mods.  But if you read the account of that mid-game player earlier in this thread, you'll see that this nerf has precisely dumped them into the predicament I am describing to you.

It is very easy to forget and dismiss the struggles others are facing, especially when you either never had to deal with it or are long past dealing with it.  Please try to understand that each one of us have different motivations for playing, have different capabilities, and are at different stages of the game.  What is not a big deal for you or me just might be a big deal for someone else.

No, since there was no specific gun buff. All those things were locked behind content that your definition of midgame players wouldnt be able to do. Also like I said, Bramma and other weapons of similar power did fine without those things for about a year, so how is it suddenly a problem now when the game has simply taken the Bramma approach to other weapons of similar power? Because that is where the nerf is at, specific very powerful weapons getting tweaked individually regarding ammo. Old Bramma with only the basic old mods did more than fine with the economy we have now for more weapons.

The players that are midgame and have problems all of a sudden very likely tried to hitch a ride with others. There is no way that they've been at a point with the weapons that were affected mostly, where they killed effortlessly and then suddenly now face a wall due to lacking ammo.

[Mediloric]

23 hours ago, OniDax said:

The whole reason this is even an issue is because the core gameplay of Warframe is, quite frankly, bad. Warframe is a mediocre shooter. It's a mediocre melee action game. It's a mediocre spaceship game. It's a mediocre loot game. It's a mediocre story-driven game. What Warframe has going for it is the diversity of gameplay it offers, the unique art design (which is still hit or miss) and customization system (which lets you color different parts of the mesh), and the sheer amount of stuff it has (a lot of which is forgotten fodder content). But everything it does is mediocre at best, trash at worst, imo. DE has this problem of trying to balance the game and balance how players engage with their game, when the underlying reasons why players choose to engage with the game in a certain way have to do with how DE has designed Warframe.

DE needs take a look at why players do what they do in the game, and not just try to course correct player actions. And then they need to work to correct the thing that causes players to play the game the way they play. That starts with overhauling the core gameplay experience and bringing to the game a focus on gunplay and melee gameplay as the primary element to draw and keep players. Maybe the game shouldn't be all about collecting junk. Maybe the main reason to play the game should actually be the gameplay, not the loot, not the cosmetics, not the wackiness of the story: the core gameplay. DE should improve the core gameplay such that it is as good as it possibly can be.

That means overhauling animations, sound design, movement mechanics (not just bullet jumping and aim gliding but how the character moves), gunplay mechanics (how guns shoot, how recoil works, how weapon modification works, how aiming works - to include ADS which would open up more possibilities for gameplay, especially boss fights), melee mechanics (not just hack and slash but more involved block-and-parry-based melee gameplay, and not just player mechanics but enemy melee mechanics as well), enemy and friendly AI behavior, map design, mission design, etc. Instead of just adding more content to the game, DE needs to refine and rework the core gameplay experience first.

Then they can refine different weapon systems in the game to align with a modernized shooter and action melee gameplay experience. As long as Warframe includes 20-year-old, outdated gameplay mechanics and systems, DE won't ever be able to sufficiently balance the content in the game.

If I may be so blunt... Reading all this just sounds like you really dislike every element of the game, or the things that make Warframe... Warframe. 

I'm not saying you're wrong in your observations, there are parts that need to be improved but it's really sounding like you want a completely different game. 

 

[MqToasty]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, since there was no specific gun buff. All those things were locked behind content that your definition of midgame players wouldnt be able to do.

Where on earth did I make that claim?  Here, let me lay out a hypothetical scenario for you so maybe you can understand this:

A player reaches the midgame in the past year.  They played Arbis to collect and level a full set of Primary Galvanized Mods so they can build a viable KZarr for SP.  They use the KZarr to push into SP.  This update drops and they cannot progress in SP anymore because they run out of ammo.  They now have to go back and farm a KNukor, play a bunch of Arbis again to farm a set of Secondary Galvanized Mods, farm more Endo until they can rank up all the Secondary mods to support that KNukor.  They probably even need to farm some Forma and a bunch of affinity to get the KNukor ranked up and viable.  And guess what?  Maybe even this isn't good enough to supplement their KZarr and they have to go back and farm for a set of melee weapons.

They had plans for SP.  Maybe they were going to farm a max-ranked Secondary Arcane so they can build a good Secondary.  Maybe they were planning to farm some Steel Essence so they can get an Umbra forma and max out their favorite frame.  But now their plans have been pushed back for at least a few weeks as they can no longer farm SP and start wondering if this game is still worth the effort, and if anything they farm now will get nerfed in the future.  Is this this hard to understand?

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The players that are midgame and have problems all of a sudden very likely tried to hitch a ride with others. There is no way that they've been at a point with the weapons that were affected mostly, where they killed effortlessly and then suddenly now face a wall due to lacking ammo.

Why are you demonizing the players who are hit by this update?  Between your baseless accusation that they "very likely tried to hitch a ride with others" and the other, actual mid-game player's account about the struggles they are facing when soloing SP, I believe theirs.

[PrimalordialBob]

Just now, BLI7Z said:

Oh no, people have to farm! And to add hurt to the insult, they also have to use all the loadout now!! OH NOES

 

Anyway...

It's a PVE game, let people use what they want. There weapons don't affect you. In the end it's you that makes their weapons affect you. It's a you problem, not them

[Prexades]

Actually I think the game is in a much better state, now that a trio of AoE weapons is not the go to choice for every situation.

*hint*: The weapons were not removed and are still very powerful but as of right now you have to be a bit more tactical about its usage.

[PrimalordialBob]

1 minute ago, BLI7Z said:

I let people use whatever they want. You should say "DE should let people use what they want." It´s just funny that people now say that they have to farm and use all the loadout as if it were a problem. If something affects the game in an unhealthy way, and the devs fix it, then it affects me indirectly and I praise it. 

You don't let them use what they want though. Instead you berate them with sarcastic insults at their intelligence just because they used weapons you didn't like.

Quote

Oh no, people have to farm! And to add hurt to the insult, they also have to use all the loadout now!! OH NOES

This nerf affected the game in an unhealthy way. It nerfed player efficiency, so now you either respect your time less or dip.

[MechNexus]

3 minutes ago, PrimalordialBob said:

It's a PVE game, let people use what they want. There weapons don't affect you. In the end it's you that makes their weapons affect you. It's a you problem, not them

Except, uh...

It does effect other people. That was the entire point of the nerf. These weapons were pretty effortlessly wiping out massive chunks of enemies back to back, and paired with Wukong it could be done literally hands free - leaving very little for anyone else to do. Wasn't very fun.