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(XBOX)ONI LawIiet

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(Some people, like me, are against these changes, and don't even use AoE weapons or Wukong, but despise the reasoning behind the changes.)

I *like* when other people are having fun.

I think the changes are not based on good metrics, and instead, are based on absurd "you *can* do this stupid braindead thing with something." leading to a kneejerk reaction with nerfs, and this is a pattern they have fallen into in the past, and I've disagreed with it at every step of the way. I disagree with the 3 design pillars they're using to decide here as well (at least, how they're applying it to these changes - on their face, they sound like good principles... I just don't see the proper application of them here.)

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8 minutes ago, MobyTheDuck said:

It still amuses me

-snip-

it amuses me that someone will come to a thread that's topic has NOTHING to do with AoE spam

but is rather the discussion of a blanket and undefinable term such as "disruptive" used to enact gameplay balance and the dangers there in

and still complain about AoE spam. . . 

 

way to go yo

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

(Some people, like me, are against these changes, and don't even use AoE weapons or Wukong, but despise the reasoning behind the changes.)

I *like* when other people are having fun.

I think the changes are not based on good metrics, and instead, are based on absurd "you *can* do this stupid braindead thing with something." leading to a kneejerk reaction with nerfs, and this is a pattern they have fallen into in the past, and I've disagreed with it at every step of the way. I disagree with the 3 design pillars they're using to decide here as well (at least, how they're applying it to these changes - on their face, they sound like good principles... I just don't see the proper application of them here.)

i like your thoughts and do agree with you on your reasoning, +1 from a singular individual you probably won't ever run into :P

i updated the OP to better reflect, +1

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by the way.

is anyone old enough to remember in the early 2000's when all the "insurgent" talk was going on, and how many laws and bills got passed invading our own privacy because we could go "of course, I don't have 1 insurgent friend I don't care, find em!" . . .those laws and measures did not go away did they. . .same thing

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The difference is you want to delete other players' items, time, money.

Then sit there afterwards in sadistic immaturity trying to troll and take your anger out on people. Salty tears bro!!!1

 

None of it is any kind of healthy or productive.

This idea of censoring other people, so you can have your safespace, is only going to make you aggressively more fragile and unstable.

You want to go the other route, have a higher stress tolerance, be able to cope and remain relaxed.

 

Alternately, if you are no longer able to participate in a group, then petition for a safe space game mode.

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32 minutes ago, MobyTheDuck said:

It still amuses me that AoE spammer will defend their position with "I'm having fun, you are the one that should play solo/search for a group".

Their mind melted so much due overdependence from AoE that if they aren't killing half of the map with a single shot of their weapon that for some reason had the same ammo economy as every other weapon in the game, they are "not having fun".

It feels they just can't grasp the points that DE made before these nerfs (all related to ammo economy, I might add) and think DE will eventually hunt and kill any "fun", because "theirs" was "killed".

Dominance - A couple AoE weapons accounted for more than half of the weapon usage in a HUGE part of the playerbase. We have literally HUNDREDS of weapons. 

Automation - AoE weapons requires NO skill. Spam at floor, spam at the walls, move to the next room, repeat.

Disruption - You join a game to PLAY it, and there is a guy just spamming his AoE weapon with no disregard to anything. There is nothing to shoot at, because the AoE already killed them in a different post code. No, the guy won't stop shooting, since he virtually will never run out of ammo. Your only options, leave and try to get another group or watch and do basically nothing.

A simple change to ammo made so their minds just glitch. "What do you mean I can't just shoot one weapon at the floor and kill the entire map? What do you mean I have to be careful with my ammo? What do you mean I have to use my SKILLS or my SECONDARY or even my MELEE?"

Do they think, "Maybe I got too comfortable with way of playing and should adapt now"? No, they go straight to "HOW DARE YOU RUIN MY FUN, I HOPE THEY RUIN OTHERS TOO!"

Absolutely spot on Moby

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26 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

(Some people, like me, are against these changes, and don't even use AoE weapons or Wukong, but despise the reasoning behind the changes.)

I *like* when other people are having fun.

I think the changes are not based on good metrics, and instead, are based on absurd "you *can* do this stupid braindead thing with something." leading to a kneejerk reaction with nerfs, and this is a pattern they have fallen into in the past, and I've disagreed with it at every step of the way. I disagree with the 3 design pillars they're using to decide here as well (at least, how they're applying it to these changes - on their face, they sound like good principles... I just don't see the proper application of them here.)

IF the changes were based on metrics the AoE would have been nerfed into the dirt Ayin! It's not kneejerk and DE are understandably concerned about this backlash! If you disagree with the design pillars it brings question as to why you would be playing the game never mind posting on a forum.

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29 minutes ago, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

it amuses me that someone will come to a thread that's topic has NOTHING to do with AoE spam

but is rather the discussion of a blanket and undefinable term such as "disruptive" used to enact gameplay balance and the dangers there in

and still complain about AoE spam. . . 

 

way to go yo

The topic of this thread is directly to do with AoE spam.

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)DISCOgnome83 said:

IF the changes were based on metrics the AoE would have been nerfed into the dirt Ayin! It's not kneejerk and DE are understandably concerned about this backlash! If you disagree with the design pillars it brings question as to why you would be playing the game never mind posting on a forum.

Why I'm playing this game? I like "Ninjas in space"... quickly dashing around, slicing and dicing all enemies that are in my way. I especially like that I get to use a twin-bladed polearm in a melee game that even slightly resembles what I'd want out of such a weapon (it's my favorite weapon type, and several characters in the books I'm writing use them.)

I posted the following in a post about the potential results of the AoE nerfs (unknown to what extent at the time.)
 

Spoiler

From my point of view, as someone who plays many games, and makes his own, and doesn't put all his eggs in one basket (not expecting everything out of a single game), Warframe has its unique traits that set it apart from the rest of the crowd. These are the selling points. These are the deciding points on why people play THIS game instead of THAT game.

When I consider Game Dev's decisions, I don't automatically assume they know best. They're flawed human individuals, just like me and you. They have imperfect data. They have to interpret the results of internal testing and metrics of player usage (but said interpretation is open to its own set of flaws, such as nobody can REALLY tell "WHY" people are doing what they're doing, or if they like what they're doing, even if they're doing it a lot, or a little.) That all boils down to best guesses, inferring meaning, biases, etc.

Then there are the trope-y reasons to make changes, like the oft repeated quote by Sid Meier of Civ fame, that "people will always optimize the fun out of everything if you give them the chance"... which is a point of view, and not a statement of fact... but because of how successful Civ was, and how "wise" it sounds, it's taken like some sort of game design fact. I think it oversimplifies the situation and actively discredits the fun that people have in optimization... they're not optimizing the fun "out of the game"... they're optimizing the fun "into the game." The same goes for his rule of buffing nor nerfing that is outlandishly annoying... as it promotes the sledgehammer-to-kill-a-fly problematic version of nerfing (that DE are prone to falling prey to... nuance isn't DE's strongest point)... and such advice that many Game Devs fall back on (his are just the most memorable and contentious that I can think of right off the top of my head).

So, with all that in mind, when I consider their decisions to nerf things, I'm usually against it because of Warframe's niche and selling points. Even if Warframe didn't start out in the category it is in now, it has worked its way into this position, mainly due to the monetization model. At some point they decided that they wanted to cater to the power fantasy (OK stop - the power fantasy presented in Warframe is that of being a "ninja in space" ... a one-man-army feared by all enemy forces, capable of infiltration and obliteration of whatever enemy forces they come up against. They are the elite of the elite, legendary warriors and saviors of a fallen empire that then fell to their hands. According to lore, one Warframe was capable of creating a planet-wide sandstorm, among other things. (as well as the whole void demon angle) This is the fantasy. Masters of gun and blade; the old ways.)

Warframe capitalizes on its strengths: swift movement, fast paced combat, and wiping out hordes of enemies with a wide variety of weaponry and styles of combat facilitated by the individual Warframes. When it steps outside this niche, toward things like slow-paced Tactical Squad-based shooters (such as Destiny, Call of Duty, etc), it goes against the core concepts that keep Warframe different from those entries, and actively diminish the style of play promoted by the systems in place within the game.

People can say all they like that it's not a horde shooter. They can say it started out as a slow moving game. That's not what Warframe has grown into, what it IS today. Whether or not the Devs wanted to move away from what it originally was, is something only they can answer (and by creating Soulframe, they may have done that, but they also acknowledge that the sort of game that they want(ed) to make doesn't fit in Warframe anymore.) The design decisions, balance decisions, and game design of Warframe have essentially been established now.

Much of it really comes down to the monetization method, in reality. They have to create "friction" in the gameplay that players can grease with their money, to make their progress more fluid. Pay for convenience. The primary way they do this, is through manipulation of drop rates. People have always been able to farm up new frames and weapons by completing missions, killing hordes of enemies for the materials, and waiting for 12hr-3day build times in the foundry... or they could outright buy fully built weapons and frames from the shop, or speed up the build times for things they have collected.

As this is a free to play game, MOST people won't be spending money to buy everything that is released, they'll farm it instead. The harder it is to farm, the more of these free to play players might be pushed over the fence "just once" to buy something here and there.

 

SO, due to the game design and its niche, things that are popular in Warframe are things that free to play players can use to farm stuff so they don't have to buy it with real money. The methods of obtaining things generally fall into two categories: drops from enemies / reward from mission completion.

*     In the case of "drops from enemies", that means killing hordes and hordes of enemies over and over in many missions (sometimes spending long hours in "endless" missions.) Anything that makes killing hordes of enemies easier and less tedious, will be welcomed as a good addition to the game. It fits the niche, it fits the power fantasy. It's a win/win for players. Obviously, this goes against the Dev's desires for players to spend their money instead...

*     In the case of "reward from mission completion", the same general rule as killing hordes as fast as possible usually holds true, since most mission objectives are to kill all the enemies as fast as possible. The longer you spend in those missions doesn't matter to your reward. Completion is all that matters. If more mission objectives didn't require killing hordes of enemies, such as stealth (spy missions, rescue missions), and assassination missions (bosses and demolysts), weapons that can kill hordes would be less beneficial, and stronger single target and silenced weapons would be more attractive, better choices, in different mission types, thus spreading the "meta" to include more variety.

 

Nerfs to AoE weapons and Warframe powers are heavy-handed ways to "force" people to not use things that are most effective in the game's design. They're not popular because they're "Over Powered" compared to single target weaponry. They're popular because they're effective in the game's design. The result that they're used a lot is a GOOD thing... the weapons were designed correctly to fit the type of game we're playing. They're not "garbage" weapons that just end up being "mastery fodder" because they're useless in the game's design, like most single target weapons.

Nerfing AoE because in co-op gameplay, they take kill opportunities away from team members... is not really appropriate, given the game design. In fact, the game's affinity earning system promotes letting other players kill things so all of your gear shares in the affinity, rather than just you using your particular piece of weaponry to level it up alone - and especially companion leveling, since without team kills or objective completion (such as opening spy vaults), pets rely on their own individual kills to gain affinity, which can take forever. And since drops from enemies are for all to pick up, it doesn't matter who killed the enemy to get that loot... there's no such thing as "kill stealing" like in MMO's, where the killer has dibs on the resulting loot from the kill.

I've never had my personal gaming experience "ruined" by party members completing the mission objectives. When I open up my missions to the public, it's because I want to accomplish the mission objectives in ways that are faster than going solo. I haven't been let down by that reasoning. I don't care what the end results page shows for kill counts, as long as it's a successful mission. When I get the itch to kill everything myself, and mission completion isn't my objective... I'll go solo for that type of fun. Both things are fun for different reasons... but people calling for AoE nerfs want their fun at the expense of the fun of others. Both sides could be argued as being selfish in this case, depending on perspective... however... You have to consider the game's design.

 

For Warframe to play to its strengths, it should not be nerfing AoE. I don't think the design pillars discussed in the recent Dev Stream 163 are compelling. I think they're short-sighted. I think they're anti-fun, and anti-Warframe.

* Dominance / Popularity - I've posted several times before about why I think this is a false flag for reasoning that something needs to be nerfed.

* Automation - The edge cases that they're using to justify nerfs based on this probably have better, harder-to-implement solutions... but who here thinks they'll take the time to address the real situation, and once it's addressed, roll back the temporary nerf that was meant to address it now? That has NEVER happened, in my experience. At the end, we're hit with a double or triple nerf, or more, depending on how many band-aids they want to apply to a situation before really getting to the heart of it.

* Disruption - This comes down to what they consider being disruptive. As I noted above, when I see missions being completed successfully, I don't count that as disrupting my gameplay - that is exactly the result I'm HOPING FOR - effective completion of objectives. People who are only concerned about their own personal experience and don't care about the completion of objectives, are the ones who call that disruptive (and I call that selfish.)

Design decisions that move Warframe closer to a tactical shooter like Destiny, and farther from the "Ninjas in Space" of Warframe, will always feel out of place to me, and I will flatly reject them and the reasoning behind them. They effectively try to pry Warframe out of its niche, and try to compete in realms that the game is not designed to be. If people want tactical shooter gameplay, they should go play games that make that their aim... and not try to change Warframe to be something it isn't.

 

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12 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

The difference is you want to delete other players' items, time, money.

Then sit there afterwards in sadistic immaturity trying to troll and take your anger out on people. Salty tears bro!!!1

 

None of it is any kind of healthy or productive.

This idea of censoring other people, so you can have your safespace, is only going to make you aggressively more fragile and unstable.

You want to go the other route, have a higher stress tolerance, be able to cope and remain relaxed.

 

Alternately, if you are no longer able to participate in a group, then petition for a safe space game mode.

Well this is some grade A bullS#&$. Censoring other people! They've been ruining the game for over a year now! Make me more aggressive, fragile and unstable? Listen I don't know what PhD pseudo-science psychological rock you've crawled out from but I reckon you should crawl back behind it fast. Yes I have a high stress tolerance as I live in the real world,

A petition for a "safe space game mode" doth not butter my parsnip one jot Surbuskien.

I reckon your a state owned civil servant or work in HR or something. HorseS#&$ like that which you peddle is not part of a solution, it's a big part of the problem. Keep peddling cause things have got so much better in recent times in reaction to left-leaning non-sensical babble like this.

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It's already been explained, and they said they weren't budging. It's up to you to accept it and take a breath.

I can copy/paste the EULA and ToS if you'd like. 

You can get mad a restaurant won't let you eat without shoes or a shirt, but it's their restaurant and you have to follow their rules, or make your own restaurant.

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On 2022-09-10 at 1:10 AM, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

sure

for clarification I will be responding to the blanket concept of ( AOE room clear and its nerf as a concept from the perspective of what this means as a whole ) and not in defense of any specific nerf, as the patch was almost perfect but the underlying problem of how this came to pass is concerning.

 

using a politically vague and safe word such as "disruptive" to cover up "warframes core gameplay" of kill lots of bad guys fast because a minority of players that have a laundry list of tools to group alone, or only with others of their specific choosing, decide that that particular method (i guess lets say Zarr) was personally an afront to them, as compared to the massive list of ways to clear a room.

not because it inhibited their control, altered their gameplay, or changed the way warframe was played.

no

it was because they just didnt like that particular flavor of room clear.

what did they do about this unreasonable but understandable human emotion?

 

THEY CRIED AND COMPLAINED FOR FUNDAMENTAL GAMEPLAY CHANGES

 

and got them

and this WILL continue.

 

we will continue to suffer changes to our daily lives in warframe, to our perks and loadouts, to what frames and guns work and don't, you wont know when and why, but know that it will be because someone you don't know, whom you will never see nor play with, didn't like that gun, or that warframe, or didn't want to farm, or thought that was too hard, or to easy. decided that something was disruptive for them, and that everyone else should change.

and the steam charts are everyone else.

 

that said i love most of the patch, the boreal fight sucks ass but the patch was great, shame about the precedent it sets.

 

 

This....

This is What the Original Post of this Thread Should Have Been....

On 2022-09-10 at 2:35 AM, MobyTheDuck said:

Dominance - A couple AoE weapons accounted for more than half of the weapon usage in a HUGE part of the playerbase. We have literally HUNDREDS of weapons. 

And The Majority Of Them Are Useless... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You cant Release 90% Of Weapons and then Blame players for the 10% that are actually Designed around the War Crime Simulator that Warframe is.... That's a Rigged Argument if ever I saw one 👀....

On 2022-09-10 at 2:35 AM, MobyTheDuck said:

Automation - AoE weapons requires NO skill. Spam at floor, spam at the walls, move to the next room, repeat.

Mate... Absolutely Nothing in Warframe Requires Any Skill.... Warframe has never been about Skill nor will it Ever Be About Skill.... That's just another Rigged Argument 👀....

On 2022-09-10 at 2:35 AM, MobyTheDuck said:

 

Disruption - You join a game to PLAY it, and there is a guy just spamming his AoE weapon with no disregard to anything. There is nothing to shoot at, because the AoE already killed them in a different post code. No, the guy won't stop shooting, since he virtually will never run out of ammo. Your only options, leave and try to get another group or watch and do basically nothing.

The Fact that this Continues to Happen in Survival Missions even when Players Split Up proves that The Issue goes Much Deeper than simply One player Hogging all the Fun for themselves....

What I find Funny is Railjack Already Solves Most Of These Issues but also Breaks when Attempting To Play it the Way it was Designed because of Engine Limitations....

On 2022-09-10 at 2:35 AM, MobyTheDuck said:

 

A simple change to ammo made so their minds just glitch. "What do you mean I can't just shoot one weapon at the floor and kill the entire map? What do you mean I have to be careful with my ammo? What do you mean I have to use my SKILLS or my SECONDARY or even my MELEE?"

You mean Saryn/Volt, The Staticor/Akarius Or The Old Spin To Win Meta ?

You're Deluded if you Think Warframe had never Been at Any Point a 1 Button Simulator.... It's Still is In this Update and you will See that Soon Enough ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On 2022-09-10 at 2:35 AM, MobyTheDuck said:

Do they think, "Maybe I got too comfortable with way of playing and should adapt now"? No, they go straight to "HOW DARE YOU RUIN MY FUN, I HOPE THEY RUIN OTHERS TOO!"

I mean... Isn't That Exactly what Happened ?

One Group Of Players wants the Game To force Their Playstyle On the Other Group.... Regardless of Which Group is Doing What You Can Not Deny this is Exactly what people Are Doing.... That's The Part about this Update thats Wrong.... AoE Users Have No Basis to claim that single Target Users that Their playing the Game the Wrong Way and Vice Versa..... So Suggest otherwise is Just Hypocrisy 👀....

 

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

...but the underlying problem of how this came to pass is concerning.

Truthfully, it was less concerning than it was predictable.

This isn't the first time DE has made changes to address pain-points/shortcomings in Co-Op—I don't think it's even the tenth. 

It doesn't necessarily have to be OP to get changed, it just needs to be proven to be a legit pain-point to the community or on the verge of becoming the de facto tactic.

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46 minutes ago, (PSN)Darkrya said:

This is troll post, the Op has barely a month old account.

This is a bait discussion, and not even a good one.

Don't waste your time here.

🗑 

ikr, multiple accounts, crazy story bro, weird. -_- (it literally auto logs this account and I don't care enough to change it) last thing i did on it was a free to play through with mag when the new player experience came out to test how it felt, not having prime sure footed was a smack to the face LOL

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I don't know what circle group of friends you're playing with but the general consensus is that people are more than happy with this update. Just so happens that people who were zombified by AoE weren't mature enough to accept changes so they decided to take a jab with negative reviews hoping DE would change instead of sucking it up and adapting. I read the reviews. Most of them are trolls or aggressive threats/death threats towards DE and no actual criticism posted. Shows which part of the playerbase are yapping on right now.

You don't see people reviewbombing DE when melee nerfs and TNW came out didn't you? Or at least not to this extent. 

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1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

(Some people, like me, are against these changes, and don't even use AoE weapons or Wukong, but despise the reasoning behind the changes.)

I *like* when other people are having fun.

I think the changes are not based on good metrics, and instead, are based on absurd "you *can* do this stupid braindead thing with something." leading to a kneejerk reaction with nerfs, and this is a pattern they have fallen into in the past, and I've disagreed with it at every step of the way. I disagree with the 3 design pillars they're using to decide here as well (at least, how they're applying it to these changes - on their face, they sound like good principles... I just don't see the proper application of them here.)

And nothing is wrong with anyone having fun. What's wrong is when that fun comes at the cost of everyone else's experience. Even if not everyone using AOE is exploiting to it's fullest the fact remains that every one of them can use it that way and plenty are going to end up doing it without even realizing it.

And yet the nerfs accomplish nothing other than making AOE users bring two AOE weapons into a mission and occasionally switching between them. If players had fun using AOE weapons throughout a mission they can continue to do exactly that. Anyone who's taking issue with this either needs to learn how to mod for damage, actually aim their shots towards enemies, or genuinely just wanted to automate gameplay instead of actually playing the game.

And the Wu nerfs didn't kill AFK Wukong. Instead of being infinitely breaindead throughout a mission he now plays like the other AFK frames Xaku and Octavia where now he too needs to occasionally do the bare minimum and return to doing nothing. All those players need to do is walk around and vacuum up some ammo. All while the rest of his abilities were either left alone or were buffed.

 

If anyone had their fun killed by these changes then their fun wasn't coming from playing the game in the first place.

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15 hours ago, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

***- Is something disrupting others from playing in their playstyle?***

/quote from design goals

 

 

EDIT: not about the contents of the patch.

topic about the dangers of using vague undefinable terms to enact abstract and massive gameplay changes based on an individual's personal preference that effect millions of others. 

 

 

 

alright you have got to tone that down and define it better, because that is selfish as well.

what's their playstyle? why are they mad?

is their playstyle braton only with no running and we all have to walk around and shoot when they do? that's not fair.

are they mad because of kills? if so why? do they feel THEY should get the kills? thats pretty selfish, so you want to group but only if YOUR carrying the others and not vice versa? 

is it hard solo? in that case YOU SHOULD NOT BE THERE if you cannot solo and group, and they carry you, say thank you.

 

AT WHAT POINT do you say switch to solo or that's just a you problem?

 

why are a loud minority allowed to dictate game design to masses they will never know or play with because they refuse to solo? 

 

limbo was disruptive, he put YOU the player in a state of play that was not your choice and HEAVILY effects gameplay, this happened constantly with one in the party and it required YOU the player to know how someone else's warframe worked and keep track of and counter effects because of how disruptive it was.

fighting for kills? how fast you clear a room? that's just gameplay and people being salty. well just use other guns or warframe abilities (thermal sunder) to once again clear a room, that's your gameplay, if people find warframes gameplay disruptive solo or dont play. 

Heres a hot take: 

 

The review bombing currently taking place might be vulgar in some cases but they represent opinions just as valid as opinions expressed here in the forums. 

 

11 hours ago, trst said:

And nothing is wrong with anyone having fun. What's wrong is when that fun comes at the cost of everyone else's experience. Even if not everyone using AOE is exploiting to it's fullest the fact remains that every one of them can use it that way and plenty are going to end up doing it without even realizing it.

And yet the nerfs accomplish nothing other than making AOE users bring two AOE weapons into a mission and occasionally switching between them. If players had fun using AOE weapons throughout a mission they can continue to do exactly that. Anyone who's taking issue with this either needs to learn how to mod for damage, actually aim their shots towards enemies, or genuinely just wanted to automate gameplay instead of actually playing the game.

And the Wu nerfs didn't kill AFK Wukong. Instead of being infinitely breaindead throughout a mission he now plays like the other AFK frames Xaku and Octavia where now he too needs to occasionally do the bare minimum and return to doing nothing. All those players need to do is walk around and vacuum up some ammo. All while the rest of his abilities were either left alone or were buffed.

 

If anyone had their fun killed by these changes then their fun wasn't coming from playing the game in the first place.

*playing the game the way you think it ought to be played, you mean.

 

"Waaaaah aoe users are ruining my fun" say the nerf herder crybabies.

Well by crying and screaming to mommy and daddy to take away everyone elses toys they ruined fun for a lot of people as evidenced by the reviews currently taking place.

The difference isnt in whos disrupting gameplay its who's being a hypocrite. 

 

And before you or anyone accuses me of being a bramma main or something no. What im most upset about is they nerfed ammo for every weapon in the game not *just* aoe and now im wondering if whatever investment i put into the new meta is gonna get S#&$ on or not. Because if so why bother.

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3 hours ago, BLI7Z said:

You still didn't explain why AoE spam with 1 botton, looking at the floor and not engaging with other aspects of the game isn't braindead.

You still didn't explain why would AoE nerf change the core Operator gameplay to the point it's almost unusable.

Keep in mind that most of Operator abilities are non-lethal. And the changes in AoE gameplay had impacted most of our Operator's damage-dealing kit.

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Funny thought: if AoE spammers went solo instead of griefing pubs with constant explosions, bright blinding lights, and robbing the rest of the squad of the gameplay killing 195 out of 200 enemies in missions (while the other 3 played walking simulator), there wouldn't have been call for nerfs. And here is OP saying the others should have gone solo.

Oh well.

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24 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

*playing the game the way you think it ought to be played, you mean.

 

"Waaaaah aoe users are ruining my fun" say the nerf herder crybabies.

Well by crying and screaming to mommy and daddy to take away everyone elses toys they ruined fun for a lot of people as evidenced by the reviews currently taking place.

The difference isnt in whos disrupting gameplay its who's being a hypocrite. 

 

And before you or anyone accuses me of being a bramma main or something no. What im most upset about is they nerfed ammo for every weapon in the game not *just* aoe and now im wondering if whatever investment i put into the new meta is gonna get S#&$ on or not. Because if so why bother.

Yes. Myself, many other players, and even DE think that one player shouldn't be allowed to forcibly take the gameplay from three other players. Anyone who thinks it's ok to negatively impact the experience of several other people just so that they can use their favorite toys are in the wrong.

And the only ones crying here are the players throwing tantrums because they're expected to do the bare minimum now. Ballas forbid that they need to swap weapons every other minute or so or need to walk towards ammo. Literally nobodies toys were ruined here.

As for every other weapon the only things that are running out of ammo now are weapons that already had no ammo economy to speak of. And even then those have all been massively buffed with the headshot changes and their ammo problems are all solved in the same ways AOE is. And even things that were relying on Merciless' max ammo can easily switch to Deadhead now which has become even easier to stack and gives an even larger headshot bonus. Leading to far better ammo economy than Merciless granted.

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16 minutes ago, Tenka_Isshin said:

You still didn't explain why would AoE nerf change the core Operator gameplay to the point it's almost unusable.

Keep in mind that most of Operator abilities are non-lethal. And the changes in AoE gameplay had impacted most of our Operator's damage-dealing kit.

I am not DE. So, it is impossible for me to answer that. I guess you will have to have patience and wait what they say about that.

Meanwhile, I asked something specific that can be answered by any player. But I got no answer. Funny. 

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I've never seen so many people deliberately -- and as obtusely as possible -- miss the point as in the run-up and shadow of this nerf.

"Woe is us, what even CAN be a playstyle that disrupts others?  Who can know the mind of other players, and if they are being disrupted?  Will they spite me for using a Braton because pub etiquette could be to use MK1 Strun???  Fate is truly a spinning wheel !"

 

If you delete most of the enemies in a mission before three normal people who are equipped with any of 300+ other weapons in the game, before they can apply damage, and especially if you switch weapons with them you're suddenly in their position, and they in yours, then maybe, just maybe, there's an overtuned outlier of a weapon that needs some adjustment.

Maybe!

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