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Let new players pick any non-prime Warframe to start with.


Balegrim

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Warframe has evolved to the point where unlocking every warframe would take quite awhile. More than players need grind, they need enthusiasm about playing the game to keep them engaged and fulfill the grind

Restricting new players to Mag, Excalibur, and Volt creates a system where they intuitively see three frames and think "this is it, huh? These are my warframes?" Who knows how long it takes before new players even realize there are more warframes to uncover, and by the time they do they might even be burned out playing with the equivalent of a base class in an action RPG they weren't super passionate about from the start. Picking your warframe is very much picking your play identity. This method absolutely obscures from players how much they should be excited about for too long in finding that identity. And really just turns the game into a lackluster or frustrating experience for people who are bad at research. 

I propose letting new players pick their starting frame from any non-prime frame with the exception of Umbral Excalibur. Here are what I feel to be the pros and cons. 

Pros:
- Creates a more engaging early game experience for players by letting them start with a frame that best fits their personality and playstyle reducing early grind burnout.
- Creates a more intuitive and informative experience about the game by showcasing just how many interesting possibilities exist from the start, and more intuitively prompts long term goals and curiosities (players more often being torn between multiple starter frames they love would be a great thing). 
- A more emotionally satisfying gameplay experience. 

-There are already tons of base frames one can be offered up with no real detriment to the game's economy or longevity. 
- Gives players more grind stamina which, lets face it, they will absolutely require to get anywhere in warframe for free. 

Cons:
- May start with a frame intended to be earned by a quest or story creating negligible narrative challenges. 

I honestly couldn't think of too many cons considering the grind hill. Like there's enough of everything to just let players pick the one non-primed frame they think is interesting. And when they see multiple frames that interest them, they'll have additional grind goals to accompany the fun they are having on the one that really spoke to them as new players. 

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The biggest con and the reason DE are unlikely to do something like this is that allowing any frame would be disruptive to the new player experience and onboarding.  The new player experience is vital to Warframe's survival as a game, and unfortunately it's already Warframe's biggest problem, because it's the point at which the most players quit the game and never come back.  DE wants to create a foundation for new players that allows them to come into Warframe and learn what the game is at a baseline while not being overwhelmed.  To do that, DE does their best to carefully control that new experience, and that includes the frames that players could be playing as.

If a player could choose any frame, onboarding becomes more complex and suffers.  If the player chooses Lavos or Hildryn, that's going to mean they can't be taught about energy.  If they choose Inaros, it's going to mean they can't be taught about shields.  If it's Nidus, they may have trouble learning that health orbs heal you (since Nidus may have already healed himself).  If it's Zephyr, they're going to think her floaty jump is what all Warframes do, and the same for Nezha's sliding.   Limbo's dodge puts him in a dimension where he can't attack enemies, and his first ability puts them in a dimension where he can't attack them either.  Ivara's first ability is a toggle, which would make teaching players about ability usage much more complicated than it already is. 

Mag, Excalibur, and Volt have been selected as starters because they do a good job of representing the baseline of the Warframe experience, while also providing different enough experiences that players can choose their own flavor of that experience.

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36 minutes ago, Balegrim said:

Warframe has evolved to the point where unlocking every warframe would take quite awhile. More than players need grind, they need enthusiasm about playing the game to keep them engaged and fulfill the grind

Restricting new players to Mag, Excalibur, and Volt creates a system where they intuitively see three frames and think "this is it, huh? These are my warframes?" Who knows how long it takes before new players even realize there are more warframes to uncover, and by the time they do they might even be burned out playing with the equivalent of a base class in an action RPG they weren't super passionate about from the start. Picking your warframe is very much picking your play identity. This method absolutely obscures from players how much they should be excited about for too long in finding that identity. And really just turns the game into a lackluster or frustrating experience for people who are bad at research. 

I propose letting new players pick their starting frame from any non-prime frame with the exception of Umbral Excalibur. Here are what I feel to be the pros and cons. 

Pros:
- Creates a more engaging early game experience for players by letting them start with a frame that best fits their personality and playstyle reducing early grind burnout.
- Creates a more intuitive and informative experience about the game by showcasing just how many interesting possibilities exist from the start, and more intuitively prompts long term goals and curiosities (players more often being torn between multiple starter frames they love would be a great thing). 
- A more emotionally satisfying gameplay experience. 

-There are already tons of base frames one can be offered up with no real detriment to the game's economy or longevity. 
- Gives players more grind stamina which, lets face it, they will absolutely require to get anywhere in warframe for free. 

Cons:
- May start with a frame intended to be earned by a quest or story creating negligible narrative challenges. 

I honestly couldn't think of too many cons considering the grind hill. Like there's enough of everything to just let players pick the one non-primed frame they think is interesting. And when they see multiple frames that interest them, they'll have additional grind goals to accompany the fun they are having on the one that really spoke to them as new players. 

It'll just result in choice overload and overwhelm new players if we give them 50 options to choose from right at the beginning, even 10 is kinda pushing it

Excalibur, Mag, and Volt do just fine. Players who just first started the game 15 seconds ago aren't going to be scheming out their next grind run, their going to want to play and get used to the game, which the starter trio do magnificently. Even veterans play them from time to time because their fun warframes to just dive in and screw around with, that's what new players want when they get a new game

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Gotta say hard no on pick any frame.

Not just lore/story implications but many frames could RUIN the game for new players as many frames are: "Complex"

Examples:

Equinox, Limbo, Protea, Lavos, Nidus, Xaku, Baruuk, and Grendel

Those frames alone (I didn't name them all) all have somewhat interesting/complex mechanics tied to them. (Admittedly Lavos might be the easiest of em.) And a player who can barely bullet jump will have a nightmare controlling/learning one.

Or they might choose a Warframe that is absolute trash. Like: Yareli

That said. I am ok with say...expanding the starter selection from 3 to 5.

Anyways, Specially 1 frame from each role/archtype.

Excalibur = A Balanced Jack of All Trades

Mag  = Utility 

Volt = DPS 

Frost or Atlus = Tank 

Oberon = Support 

Hell...add a 6th. But with a pop-up warning that it'll be akin to choosing hardmode.

Loki = Stealth / CC

Those alone would be a nice way to showcase the range and diversity of Warframes but without overwhelming the new player or risking them getting a frame they won't understand. 

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Zero_029:

Gotta say hard no on pick any frame.

Not just lore/story implications but many frames could RUIN the game for new players as many frames are: "Complex"

Examples:

Equinox, Limbo, Protea, Lavos, Nidus, Xaku, Baruuk, and Grendel

Those frames alone (I didn't name them all) all have somewhat interesting/complex mechanics tied to them. (Admittedly Lavos might be the easiest of em.) And a player who can barely bullet jump will have a nightmare controlling/learning one.

Or they might choose a Warframe that is absolute trash. Like: Yareli

That said. I am ok with say...expanding the starter selection from 3 to 5.

Anyways, Specially 1 frame from each role/archtype.

Excalibur = A Balanced Jack of All Trades

Mag  = Utility 

Volt = DPS 

Frost or Atlus = Tank 

Oberon = Support 

Hell...add a 6th. But with a pop-up warning that it'll be akin to choosing hardmode.

Loki = Stealth / CC

Those alone would be a nice way to showcase the range and diversity of Warframes but without overwhelming the new player or risking them getting a frame they won't understand. 

Loki actually used to be a starter but they replaced him with Volt because apparently they thought he wasn't a suitable beginner frame.

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Opening up the options completely is problematic, but I think new people would appreciate a few more choices.  It's tricky to figure out which ones though.  They should be simple, not too weak or OP, probably shouldn't have huge impact on farming...and not make it more of a sausage fest. :P

Maybe Mirage, Loki, and Valk?  Perhaps Banshee and Nezha instead or in addition? Rhino? Wukong?

 

 

 

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vor 18 Stunden schrieb Balegrim:

Warframe has evolved to the point where unlocking every warframe would take quite awhile. More than players need grind, they need enthusiasm about playing the game to keep them engaged and fulfill the grind

Restricting new players to Mag, Excalibur, and Volt creates a system where they intuitively see three frames and think "this is it, huh? These are my warframes?" Who knows how long it takes before new players even realize there are more warframes to uncover, and by the time they do they might even be burned out playing with the equivalent of a base class in an action RPG they weren't super passionate about from the start. Picking your warframe is very much picking your play identity. This method absolutely obscures from players how much they should be excited about for too long in finding that identity. And really just turns the game into a lackluster or frustrating experience for people who are bad at research. 

I propose letting new players pick their starting frame from any non-prime frame with the exception of Umbral Excalibur. Here are what I feel to be the pros and cons. 

Pros:
- Creates a more engaging early game experience for players by letting them start with a frame that best fits their personality and playstyle reducing early grind burnout.
- Creates a more intuitive and informative experience about the game by showcasing just how many interesting possibilities exist from the start, and more intuitively prompts long term goals and curiosities (players more often being torn between multiple starter frames they love would be a great thing). 
- A more emotionally satisfying gameplay experience. 

-There are already tons of base frames one can be offered up with no real detriment to the game's economy or longevity. 
- Gives players more grind stamina which, lets face it, they will absolutely require to get anywhere in warframe for free. 

Cons:
- May start with a frame intended to be earned by a quest or story creating negligible narrative challenges. 

I honestly couldn't think of too many cons considering the grind hill. Like there's enough of everything to just let players pick the one non-primed frame they think is interesting. And when they see multiple frames that interest them, they'll have additional grind goals to accompany the fun they are having on the one that really spoke to them as new players. 

Nah. I wouldn't mind them throwing in a few more, but:

1: Granting a choice of all 50 would be confusing and overwhelming for new players. It's better to have a small selection with very clearly defined playstyles.

2: Many frames are difficult to learn or vary drastically from how the vast majority of the roster functions (such as frames like Lavos or Hyldrin who have alternate ability ressource systems) and thus don't make for a good early game learning opprtunity or are just unreasonable for a new player to properly build (such as Grendel).

3: Quite a few of the frames are tied to certain missions and story aspects (i.e. Harrow, Gara, Chroma, Inaros, Sevagoth, Nidus, Caliban or Titania) and it would be incredibly awkward to finish a quest just to get a blueprint to build the frame you started with or have parts of the plot spoiled to you.

They could throw in one or two of the frames that are just randomly assigned farms with no story significance, such as Oberon (though his passive would be quite weird since you don't start with a companion), Rhino (though I think he really is in a good spot progressionwise as the first farmable frame), Hydroid or Nova, but all 50 would just be a detriment to the games progression.

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31 minutes ago, Darthplagueis13 said:

Loki actually used to be a starter but they replaced him with Volt because apparently they thought he wasn't a suitable beginner frame.

I know. And they aren't wrong tbh.

But that's why I listed him as a "Hardmode" of sorts.

Kind of akin to the statless choice in soulsbourne games.

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1 hour ago, Darthplagueis13 said:

Loki actually used to be a starter but they replaced him with Volt because apparently they thought he wasn't a suitable beginner frame.

As someone who's first Warframe was Loki, they were entirely correct, he's awful as a newbie.

 

I think I might still have him left at mastery 26 because I was that traumatized.

 

Starting with Loki is hell.

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Well, at the very least can we all agree they could open up more than 3? Like would that be reasonable at this point in the game? 

I don't think it's entirely without merit to say a lot of players are probably having a much worse time than they could be if they had a few more different frames to choose from that better fit their personalities and playstyles. Even if they didn't pick something like Lavos or Hildryn. 

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5 hours ago, Balegrim said:

Like would that be reasonable at this point in the game? 

what does this mean? 

like...everyone starts the game in the same situation as ages ago. 

it's not like that by DE adding more frames the beginning gets harder or the need for different starters arises. 

we can talk about more useful mods for beginners, that i would agree with. 

but frames? it doesn't change anything. 

you can even start with Styanax, without any amount of barely useful mods he will be deleted anyways. 

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6 hours ago, Balegrim said:

Well, at the very least can we all agree they could open up more than 3? Like would that be reasonable at this point in the game? 

While more options are always nice, how is a new player going to judge which frame to use? The hints in the descriptions aren't that informative and I know I mostly picked by "that looks kinda cool" rather than any actual idea of what the game-play would be. Having some sort of mulligan system, or exposure to more playstyles before making a final choice might be better, but given how long it is before a player can really start to use a frame abilities, it's still going to be hard to give them a good base to make decisions from.

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Not gonna lie, there are a lot of RPGs that let you pick between several classes. 

I think there is a serious air of underestimating the intelligence of new players in general by suggesting they would be "overwhelmed" and lost by like 5 or 6 choices. And I think there are at least 6 warframes that it would be EASY to clarify with hints what sort of experience new players could expect. 

Atlas: A sturdy warframe who can't be knocked down that can summon golems and stone walls to block enemies. And overwhelm them with stone punches. 

Like that was one example and Atlas in a nutshell. I think people are making a bigger deal of this than it actually would be. 

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I think Valkyr and protea would be good starter choices

Protea will give new players access to a support frame right off the bat

and valkyr will help players explore melee combat as well

the starter frames we have now will be boring for new players because they are way too basic, warframe's current practice of giving 3 choices is very outdated in today's standard when you could pick any f2p mmo and get like 5 or 10 choices

treating new players like morons is a mistake that will kill player retention an alternative to OP's suggestion is to put the frames you don't pick in a questline and having them instantly crafted the moment you unlock them for example you started as excalibur so mag and volt will be starter quest rewards

warframe could also give questlines to unlock all the star chart frames like nova, frost and saryn because the game at it's current state does not tell new players how to get new frames

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18 hours ago, Neihel said:

I think Valkyr and protea would be good starter choices

Valkyr? Sure, why not.

Protea? Oh dear god no, that would be a terrible decision.

Not because of any questions of her suitability for new players, but because it's a pretty gigantic middle finger to the people who obtained her through the normal gameplay route. (And I say this as one of the people who looked at how you obtain her and went "nope".)

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Way too many frames have way too non-simple kits for a beginner, and it'd also clash with the opening Cinematics to have additional frame choices.

Not to say that Mag or Volt are particularly simple but like.... Let's say that we were only considering Tenno Dojo research Frames, and planetary/boss-fight bosses, the early mandatory ones to get to all of the important places and planets and stuff on the star-chart (so not like, Ropalolyst, and not Bounty-based or missions-with-drops-based Frames), and no Frames that are intrinsically lore-tied to the boss battle innately, or uncontestably thematically linked. That leaves, who?

Equinox (complicated and weird kit)
Nova (also hella weird stuff and non-intuitively modded)
Nyx (trivializes shield/armor, makes enemies play for you)
Nekros? (trivializes farming of basic resources which would undercut DE's profit via early plat or booster purchases)
Rhino (would probably get people addicted to Roar and Iron Skin, and also he's obtainable from venus, people don't have far to go to get him in the first place)
Loki (trivializes spy vaults, would allow players to not-learn how to be genuinely stealthy or careful, would screw you up if you never learned by the time you got to Drifter/Kahl gameplay)
Hydroid (honestly... Sure? He's obnoxiously gated behind MR8 or something to access Vay Hek, and it's an annoying AF boss fight)
Trinity (trivializes health and energy, would slow your gameplay pace instead of accelerate, since they lack significant offensive abilities)
Frost (if you don't count Lt. Kril's freezing and Vor's bubble shield as thematically linked to Frost. Also actively encourages a stationary playstyle, arguably)
Zephyr (so floaty and fundamentally different in parkour potential compared to all other frames)
Wukong (we just nerfed him because he plays the game too much for players, and is too hyper-mobile let's not. Also people wouldn't learn about Revives as much because of his 3 bonus Immortality lives, and he'd also be able to trivialize spy missions for new players.)
Nezha (slidey, proc immunity and DR instead of allowing player to learn about health and shields)
Banshee (players wouldn't understand Noise Levels until they got another frame)

Like..... It's bizarre how it works out, but Excalibur is just an auto-attack melee move, a basic CC that opens enemies up to finishers, a radial attack move, and then what is essentially just another melee weapon. Volt has just a physical(ish) shield, runs and melee's fast, and does a castable and AoE electric attack. Mag just pulls enemies close to her, close to each other, strips some defense, and does an AoE attack. They're fairly equivalent and simple.

If I was picking *across the board* (mostly minus Lore frames), I'd pick Hydroid as mentioned above, Atlas cuz it's just punch, freeze, boulder/wall-shield, and slow lumbering not auto-play-the-game-for-you temporary companions (if he wasn't a quest reward). Ash because his invisibility and teleports are far less trivializing than other frame's. Oberon for a basic 1 and 4, a defensive/offensive AoE, and a single source of heal that doesn't trivialize health. Mirage (maybe after getting nerfed so ESO isn't a free ride so easily taken in (elite) Sanctuary Onslaught.

It's simpler to just stick with the Cinematic's starters though.

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Excal is the killer. I've helped so many new players and so many people that picked Excal quit because he made the experience "boring". To be fair he is a very basic frame. Like way more than the other two and especially at the start, only has one real way to be played. He was the main frame I hoped they would rework and make a bit more complex. He's certainly a victim of the times. Of all the frames I go back to and play I personally never go back to excal. The people who picked Volt and Mag ended up enjoying the experience way more and could better learn those more advanced frames

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On 2022-09-13 at 11:12 PM, Balegrim said:

Picking your warframe is very much picking your play identity.

DE:risa-risitas.gif

 

... They already stated that any equipment are just tools to be used. Some people like to restrict themselves to a single Warframe, and I know it because that's what I still do...

However, new players shouldn't have access to Wukong as the starting Warframe. The available choices represent 3 different approaches to the game. Plenty more becomes available the longer they progress... But they're not identities, they're tools and always have been tools to be used. The Operator, however, IS the identity.

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It'll never happen. Quest frames would be screwed up. Some of the quests are much simpler than others, but already having the frame when going into the quest for the first time would ruin the experience they could provide. Not to mention people complaining that they "Had to do quest X" because it was a prerequisite for something else and they already had the frame.

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