Let new players pick any non-prime Warframe to start with.

[bobojoeho]

I disagree.  The main issue I have is that new players, or at least some of them, are going to pick research which frame is best.  Then they pick a normally hard-to-get frame and start with it.  Gauss would be a good example.  Saryn, too.  Frames like Vauban, Octavia, Khora, Wisp, and Mesa will be super common now.  This will likely result in more people quitting early game, due to boredom.  People would start with a frame way better than the current starting 3, and after a little while, they will still not have encountered any challenge.  They will likely then assume the game is just super easy cause they already completed all of Earth and Venus without blinking, and therefore quit cause of boredom.  Endgame players complain about the complete lack of challenge, and you are essentially letting new players have that too.  Ofc, they wont have galvanized mods and arcanes and whatnot, but compared to the levels of difficulty they start the game in, their frames will be way out of proportion power-wise.

[Tsukinoki]

On 2022-09-13 at 5:12 PM, Balegrim said:

Cons:
- May start with a frame intended to be earned by a quest or story creating negligible narrative challenges. 

I honestly couldn't think of too many cons considering the grind hill. Like there's enough of everything to just let players pick the one non-primed frame they think is interesting. And when they see multiple frames that interest them, they'll have additional grind goals to accompany the fun they are having on the one that really spoke to them as new players. 

Few other major Cons you're missing:
- Some frames require extensive modding to be useful/powerful.  Take for instance Loki.  He used to be a starter but was swapped out because while he does have a solid kit you need some mods in him to be useful and be able to survive and do stuff as you're rather limited when you don't have any mods at all.
Frames like that would just sour the experience of new players greatly

- On the other hand some frames are just too powerful for starter frames.  Even though he was just nerfed Wukong would still be quite a bit too powerful to just hand to a new player, and that could end up souring their experience once they start getting other frames.  Wisp is another frame that would be a bit too powerful to just give to a new player, I mean think of a new player going through the starting maps with a permanent 30 hp per second regen and constant AoE damage and stuns?
Sure those levels of power aren't bad when you're doing stuff later in teh game...but that is just way too much overkill early game.

- Some frames are just complex, and while they don't require extensive mods aren't that suited to new players.  Such as Xaku, or Limbo.  Think of a completely new player trying to figure out playing Limbo with zero experience at all with the game, and how that would teach him bad habits for every other frame....

-Some frames just don't touch on all the base mechanics of the game.  Nidus and Inaros don't have shields, Hildryn doesn't have energy.  Lavos has CDs on his abilities.
It should be fairly important that a starter choice for new players actually engages with the various mechanics of the game.

 

Honestly the three choices that warframe has laid out have been carefully considered and chosen for a reason.  They have simple kits, they don't require a ton of modding to be useful, they do fairly different things from each other.  They touch on all of the base mechanics of warframe.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

Speaking of the new player experience, can we finally give Vor a Warframe drop? As it's one of the first areas, Mercury should be a place where you get Volt, in the same way that the other starters are unlocked early on.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

On 2022-09-13 at 6:12 PM, Balegrim said:

Warframe has evolved to the point where unlocking every warframe would take quite awhile. More than players need grind, they need enthusiasm about playing the game to keep them engaged and fulfill the grind

Restricting new players to Mag, Excalibur, and Volt creates a system where they intuitively see three frames and think "this is it, huh? These are my warframes?" Who knows how long it takes before new players even realize there are more warframes to uncover, and by the time they do they might even be burned out playing with the equivalent of a base class in an action RPG they weren't super passionate about from the start. Picking your warframe is very much picking your play identity. This method absolutely obscures from players how much they should be excited about for too long in finding that identity. And really just turns the game into a lackluster or frustrating experience for people who are bad at research. 

I propose letting new players pick their starting frame from any non-prime frame with the exception of Umbral Excalibur. Here are what I feel to be the pros and cons. 

Pros:
- Creates a more engaging early game experience for players by letting them start with a frame that best fits their personality and playstyle reducing early grind burnout.
- Creates a more intuitive and informative experience about the game by showcasing just how many interesting possibilities exist from the start, and more intuitively prompts long term goals and curiosities (players more often being torn between multiple starter frames they love would be a great thing). 
- A more emotionally satisfying gameplay experience. 

-There are already tons of base frames one can be offered up with no real detriment to the game's economy or longevity. 
- Gives players more grind stamina which, lets face it, they will absolutely require to get anywhere in warframe for free. 

Cons:
- May start with a frame intended to be earned by a quest or story creating negligible narrative challenges. 

I honestly couldn't think of too many cons considering the grind hill. Like there's enough of everything to just let players pick the one non-primed frame they think is interesting. And when they see multiple frames that interest them, they'll have additional grind goals to accompany the fun they are having on the one that really spoke to them as new players. 

 

On 2022-09-14 at 12:46 PM, (PSN)Zero_029 said:

Gotta say hard no on pick any frame.

Not just lore/story implications but many frames could RUIN the game for new players as many frames are: "Complex"

Examples:

Equinox, Limbo, Protea, Lavos, Nidus, Xaku, Baruuk, and Grendel

Those frames alone (I didn't name them all) all have somewhat interesting/complex mechanics tied to them. (Admittedly Lavos might be the easiest of em.) And a player who can barely bullet jump will have a nightmare controlling/learning one.

Or they might choose a Warframe that is absolute trash. Like: Yareli

That said. I am ok with say...expanding the starter selection from 3 to 5.

Anyways, Specially 1 frame from each role/archtype.

Excalibur = A Balanced Jack of All Trades

Mag  = Utility 

Volt = DPS 

Frost or Atlus = Tank 

Oberon = Support 

Hell...add a 6th. But with a pop-up warning that it'll be akin to choosing hardmode.

Loki = Stealth / CC

Those alone would be a nice way to showcase the range and diversity of Warframes but without overwhelming the new player or risking them getting a frame they won't understand. 

Maybe instead of all the Warframes, we just make it so you can use the dojo ones. 

Those frames are very easy to unlock early on and are all pretty easy to use and understand and when built are easily clearing what is considered endgame. 

They have also made ember a "starting frame" as you can/used to get her from Amazon/twitch prime meaning any regular twitch user can start the game with her after the tutorial mission. 

[ScytodiDaedalus]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Speaking of the new player experience, can we finally give Vor a Warframe drop? As it's one of the first areas, Mercury should be a place where you get Volt, in the same way that the other starters are unlocked early on.

That could be one thing to improve on. While honestly, I think Boss drops shouldn't even be the way to unlock the Warframes. I don't think many people end up enjoying the experience of killing a boss, to know they have to kill it about 6 or 7 times before actually getting a Warframe they want.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

7 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

I think Boss drops shouldn't even be the way to unlock the Warframes. I don't think many people end up enjoying the experience of killing a boss, to know they have to kill it about 6 or 7 times before actually getting a Warframe they want.

I think that has less to do with the process and more the boss design. If we had good bosses (along the lines of Jackal or at least Jupiter's Alad V), the process of farming a boss would be a good way to incentivize the player actually learning how to fight that boss.

[PollexMessier]

The very first boss you fight in the game drops a part for Rhino
Rhino is not a starter frame.

Right there the game teaches you that you can obtain other frames besides the 3 you start with and most players will probably reach that boss in 1 or 2 days.

Also most new players arent gonna be able to look at the entire roster of 50 frames after first booting up the game and not be immediately too intimidated to even think. Which'll just be compounded when that happens again later at the point immediately after vors prize where a lot of players drop out for that exact reason already.

We could use a few more starter frames. I vote Frost just cus defense is far and away the hardest thing in the game when you start. And they bumped his drops up to Ceres a while back which was incredibly dumb. He use to be on mars. Probably should have another female frame. Maybe Valkyr to look like a female counterpart to Excalibur. That way having two casters doesn't seem so confusing. A male and female caster, a male and female warrior, and frost is a bit of an outlier. Maybe make him out to be a sort of defender support. which he basically is. Maybe make his 4 augment a default part of the ability to solidify that role more. Unfortunately Frost's female counterpart is Gara and she can't be a starter frame. But the players are almost immediately informed about her through Saya's vigil so at least they quickly figure that out.

Speaking of which... Saya's vigil rewards you with Gara's blueprint... you're forced to initiate that quest to progress to mars cus you have to go through Cetus, and most curious players will encounter that before they've progressed to Venus just exploring around earth. So that's another frame the game tells you about really early.

There's no issue with the way starter frames are handled and the fact that you need to earn other "classes" as you play. Many other games do something similar. Two that immediately come to my mind are Trove, being surprisingly similar to warframe in a lot of ways, and Code Vein, which takes a bit different of an approach but definitely has a similar feel to it's class and equipment systems. No piece of equipment or class strictly better than another, just different and more complicated styles of play slowly drip fed to you as you play through the game and learn the mechanics.

[PollexMessier]

22 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Speaking of the new player experience, can we finally give Vor a Warframe drop? As it's one of the first areas, Mercury should be a place where you get Volt, in the same way that the other starters are unlocked early on.

I think Vor should get Excalibur, Frost should be moved back to Mars, and Volt should be placed on Ceres.

It would actually make the most sense thematically to have jackal drop Volt because of all the electrical hazards during the fight. But Rhino's placed as the first accessible non starter frame for a reason.

[(XBOX)Varzin]

My friend and I have a tradition where every time we introduce someone to Warframe and they show enough interest to stick with it we buy them 1 normal frame of their choice. We do a quick run through the list showing off each one, describing each frame's general theme and how easy/hard the each frame is to get through gameplay, and let them pick one they like. That way they get to play as something they are personally interested in right out of the gate and get to have a bit more fun early on. So far the picks have been Hildryn, Khora, Oberon, and Ash. 

That said I don't think I can support letting all new players pick any frame as their starter. Some frames are more advanced than others and would not support a good new player experience. A new player picking something like Sevagoth as their ONLY frame to start with will probably have a more difficult time getting into the game than someone who picks Inaros or Revenant. With what I'm doing the player still has their standard starter to fall back on if they have too much trouble with whatever we buy for them.

[Grommile]

On 2022-09-21 at 7:45 PM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

we just make it so you can use the dojo ones. 

Dojoframes include Banshee (who is pretty finicky to make good use of) and Wukong (who is infamously gameplay-neutralizing, though this has been recently toned down).

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, Grommile said:

Dojoframes include Banshee (who is pretty finicky to make good use of) and Wukong (who is infamously gameplay-neutralizing, though this has been recently toned down).

Wukong is balanced now, and new players don't carry the zarr or tonkor. 

So it's really not op.

[Grommile]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Wukong is balanced now, and new players don't carry the zarr or tonkor.

Did they rein in Cloud Walker far enough to make the actual dedicated stealthframes better at Spy vaults than he is?

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, Grommile said:

Did they rein in Cloud Walker far enough to make the actual dedicated stealthframes better at Spy vaults than he is?

CW didn't change at all, so...

[Frendh]

On 2022-09-14 at 12:12 AM, Balegrim said:

I propose letting new players pick their starting frame from any non-prime frame with the exception of Umbral Excalibur. Here are what I feel to be the pros and cons. 

No.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

28 minutes ago, Grommile said:

Did they rein in Cloud Walker far enough to make the actual dedicated stealthframes better at Spy vaults than he is?

Considering at this point cloud walker is the biggest reason to use Wukong, I don't think that needs a nerf

[MaxTunnerX]

I agree with the main idea of the topic. Allow every non-prime frame to be chosen as a starter. I would show the basic 3 starter frames to newbies and have an "advanced" button with a warning message about how it might affect the players gameplay if chosen without knowledge. Perhaps add a short video of the frames demonstrating how they usually get played and how theyre different from the rest. Returning players will make a good use of it and newbies can decide what frame to pick based on their game knowledge (videos they had seen until then, articles they had read, info they had got from a friend etc.) or lack thereof.

[mycroft_]

DE wants your money in plat sales.

Most of all, they want new player money from new player plat sales.

This isn't going to change because it would affect DE's bottom line...even if it would make the game better.

[Balegrim]

I see a lot of posts stuck on criticizing the idea of making every frame available to new players. And never regarded thoughts to compromise moving away from that idea. 

 

I can understand even if I don't fully agree. I'm passed that. But have we really given it a fair look by suggesting out of all 50 frames there are not any others who would fill the role of being starter friendly AND offer some differences in play style without disrupting quests and balance? Like we can't give 2 or 3 more sensible options even? Though I think 5 more would be even better. 

I saw an above post saying people keep friends invested in the game by getting them a base frame they are more passionate about. All that tells me is new players are forcing themselves to compromise having fun so much they won't last long enough to get a new warframe they like within the intended time frame or explore long enough to know it exists.

[(PSN)M00n_Slippers]

I see no point in this. You can start getting additional frames very quickly. There are three available on Earth itself if I recall. If a new player somehow missed that collecting the frames is kind of the point of the game, then they would know just by looking in the market there is more and they can be obtained without plat, and they would really notice when they see people using more in multiplayer that there are frames beyond the starters. It takes most players quite a while just to max their first frames, and get enough mods to fill all the slots. This really seems like a solution in want of a problem? Like, I don't think I've ever heard a new player say 'I wish I could pick frames other than these three' Like at that point they don't even know what the frames they can get do, and what other frames out there can do, to have that kind of feeling. Giving them that kind of choice would just be needlessly overwhelming and confusing. The only change I can see is adding a female frame to the choices just to be an even split of two male, two female frame options, and the best choice for that would probably be Valkyr, as another early frame who is simple to use and has a good contrast of abilities to the other three.

[Bravojuliet4me]

I like most of what you said in the original post, but the truth is that new players have no idea what they are doing yet. They are just clicking buttons until something happens. This includes with character selections. Maybe instead of letting them be overwhelmed by choices and having no idea what to play, which will just result in multiple account making until they get the frame they want. Just show them a quick scroll down screen where there are many other warframes to pick from but some are locked in a similar way that classic arcade fighting games used to "grey out" locked characters or they slap a big red X over the picture to signal to the player that they can't pick them yet.

On 2022-09-21 at 8:10 AM, Tsukinoki said:

Honestly the three choices that warframe has laid out have been carefully considered and chosen for a reason.  They have simple kits, they don't require a ton of modding to be useful, they do fairly different things from each other.  They touch on all of the base mechanics of warframe.

I gotta agree with my man Tsukinoki here, I didn't have a clue what I was doing at first anymore than anyone else here did. Too many choices at the start just adds to the new player confusion experience.

[Balegrim]

I hear what you are both saying but this in no way addresses adding only 3-5 more frames as options. Many modern RPGs let players pick from SEVERAL starting classes. The idea players would be drowned out by having 5-6 to choose from instead of 3 is a stretch. 

 

And as mentioned it takes a long time to power up any Warframe. At all. Which makes a fun start critical. 

 

I would like to see a good counter to the idea that at least of 50 different frames, 3 or 4 more could not also be carefully considered for an informative new player experience and added to the new player roster to provide a broader selection of options a new player might find way more fun to stick with long enough to progress further. Especially when many RPGs these days give you 5 or 6 choices. 

[Bravojuliet4me]

I'm open to the idea of adding in new warframes to the starting pool. Honestly that's not what the problem is. New player confusion is what the problem is. If you do add in more warframes to the starting pool then those warframes need to be clearly labeled in a gamer language that is universally understandable among new players no matter what genre of game they came from before playing warframe. Example text: This warframe is typically used as a "Tank", "Spell caster" or "DPS", etc...

 

[Drasiel]

On 2022-09-14 at 9:53 AM, Darthplagueis13 said:

Loki actually used to be a starter but they replaced him with Volt because apparently they thought he wasn't a suitable beginner frame.

Fun fact: Loki actually replaced Volt as a starter back in single digit update days. At one point Volt's ult was was vastly overpowered and he got moved off the starters because he was too powerful for a starting frame, or at least that was the rumour going around. He was replaced with Loki who stayed there for a good bit but because ability mods were harder to get at the time and loki was more dependent on them than any other frame he was a really bad option as a starter. Lots of people started with loki, didn't get the  mods to make him fun, then quit because the frame "sucks" and "he doesn't deal any damage!".  This led to volt being put back as a starter again and brings us to current day.