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Overguard "Threat" and Mesmer Skin recent buff


Venefik

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 The introduction of Overguard indirectly nerfed CC because Eximi are supposed to be a threat. I personally don't like Overguard and I think it is very unnecessary when we could just nerf the problematic abilities that are/were being abused. Important enemies, as far as I can remember, were already ability (and sometimes status) resistant or immune, anyways. But like some say, "suck it up and git gud". OK, it's probably for the best, right?

 One or two patches later, Mesmer skin (which is now even stronger than before overguard was a thing) gets a buff which basically allows Revenant to go back into ignoring Eximi, or rather most if not all enemies, like he used to. Equip Intensify and Augur Secrets and get a minimun 9 seconds of immortality, for a super expensive 50 energy.

 Is this balance? Eximi must be a threat to Banshee and killed in milliseconds, lest the heavy gunner punches 20 holes per second in your pretty banshee prime. But tank frame can press tank key and dance around 10 eximi?

 "But! But! My 20 stacks were vaporizing in an instant!"
 Yes, (no longer) a threat.

 Warframe is a good game. But Warframe would be a great game if it had less double standards and more actual balance. 👍

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Revenant's identity largely revolves around two things, Mesmer Skin and his thralls. Reave only really works well when combined with his thralls, and all 3 of those abilities combo very well with each other. The issue is Revenant is supposed to be an immortal frame, but all 3 of those abilities rely on a type of CC to be useful (Reave isn't CC, but refreshing Mesmer stacks and killing things with it require the thing be thralled). The buff was much needed to overcome overguard, otherwise Revenant had no identity and no useful abilities, especially in Steel Path which is considered the end game by most people.

Was this fair? No. Warframe has never been fair to gear. It was needed for Revenant, though, and with his prime coming up, I expected/hoped something to be done about his situation.

 

I'm of the opinion that good survivability should be incredibly easy to achieve on any frame. Players shouldn't have to worry about surviving, and this is something that can be done by using certain frames but I think that just ends up limiting player choice. Unfortunately, quite a few frames don't survive well in higher level content without abusing extremely sweaty and, in my opinion, somewhat exploitative gameplay with shield-gating and Rolling Guard. I think surviving with that kind of method is fine since it's extremely active, but I think you should be able to survive with the classic method of building EHP. Quite terribly, I think once you get into Steel Path it becomes apparent that without a 90% dmg reduction source you will die quite easily, and you probably want to stack two for 99% dmg reduction, especially if one is Adaptation which has to ramp up.

To that end, I think this would be solved with a better damage reduction ability in the Helminth. Null Star is kind of bad for a lot of reasons, but if you had something like Nezha's Warding Halo helminth-able into any frame, nobody would ever need to complain about survivability for even the worst of frames. This would also give people a reason to not just slot in Roar on every frame... at least the ones that want to play frames with bad survivability.

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You do know that his prime is coming? So it was expected. 

Banshee and other squishy frames sure can get some tweaks , no doubt about that. Also cc changes hit a lot of frames,
and i'm not sure when their kit will be adjusted. 

Not dying is not that rare these days, rev just became more lazy and close to what he was before the eximus rework. 

Armor plus hp builds also could get some love. Outside of damage reduction frames that way is really expensive in terms of slots and its viability. 

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When it comes to Revenant there is no consideration of balance.

The now current creative director has such a strong emotional attachment to him, given the fact that they made him, that they cried over him getting a deluxe, and his one shot being conveniently overlooked when DE was removing 1 shot mechanics from the game.

it’s a blatant act of favoritism that I called out the other week.

And honestly at this point IDK why they even bothered with the 1 second grace period. They could’ve just fully acknowledged how bad the charges system is for a tank ability and just removed the charges entirely and made it 10 seconds of invulnerability.

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He's pretty much just back where he was prior to the introduction of Steel Path and then later Eximus. He was designed to work that way more or less, though the implementation they used on him at start simply didnt allow him to scale with the 4 player max density you face in Steel Path even solo, or versus mobs immune to his mesmer stun. Prior to Steel Path his mesmer skin could last for full survival rotations without ever needing a rebuff, and that was with around 10 or so charges total.

And this eximus problem he had with mesmer skin isnt some new thing that was a result of them, it was there with any mob he faced that was immune to CC. It was one of the rude awakenings when taking him to Orb Vallis to farm toroids, the jackal mobs ripped through him in a second since the lack of the stun also removed the iframe tied to it that prevented multishot enemy attacks to be ignored beyond the first pellet that landed. The Jackal minigun just went through it in a second since all hits that follwed the first one counted and removed a charge each.

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7 hours ago, Venefik said:

Is this balance? Eximi must be a threat to Banshee and killed in milliseconds, lest the heavy gunner punches 20 holes per second in your pretty banshee prime. But tank frame can press tank key and dance around 10 eximi?

I'm not going to get into the main topic, but I'd think you could have chosen many better examples than Banshee.  Silence's suppression is even better against eximus than it was, and Sonar is one of the great ways to take down eximus quickly.  Even Sonic Boom is interesting, because it makes it easy gank the eximus when it gets all the trash out of the way.

 

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3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm not going to get into the main topic, but I'd think you could have chosen many better examples than Banshee.  Silence's suppression is even better against eximus than it was, and Sonar is one of the great ways to take down eximus quickly.  Even Sonic Boom is interesting, because it makes it easy gank the eximus when it gets all the trash out of the way.

 

 The only reason I used banshee as an example is because she used to have a build with limited range to control enemies with the silence mini stun, which I never really liked or used but read quite a few times about. I presume that no longer works since not being stunned is all a unit needs to at least instantly gate your shields. I just metioned her as an example of overguard impacting a warframe in a way. And I know that Silence is a very good ability, hence why its my favorite ability in her kit (despite the muffle sfx >.<). In all honesty, I really don't care about what a warframe can do indiviadually. I was just pointing out the huge fallacy in this "threat" or "challenge" that I've read about when we all know very well plenty of frames that can win while standing still. I just created the topic because I at least expected a few patches before the imense contradiction of "here is a buff to an already pretty good skill so it no longer has a weakness and you can ignore everything again".

 By the way I liked the sonic boom thing. At first, I found it annyoing since even though some special enemies resist the ragdoll, you still send them sliding across the map which was useful as a breathing room thingy. But now I know I can use it to isolate Eximi, specially the guardian ones. Thanks for the advice 😋

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 I agree with most replies here, I just hope we at least have the same consideration for other abilties that suffered hell with overguard. Mind Control comes to mind, since it's almost impossible to use it on most light eximi units since they usually evaporate as soon as they loose their larger overguard pools.

 Thanks for contributing to the discussion guys. 🙂 

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18 minutes ago, Venefik said:

 The only reason I used banshee as an example is because she used to have a build with limited range to control enemies with the silence mini stun, which I never really liked or used but read quite a few times about. I presume that no longer works

It still works, but it's a lot more challenging. 

 

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On 2022-09-14 at 6:21 AM, Venefik said:

 The introduction of Overguard indirectly nerfed CC because Eximi are supposed to be a threat. I personally don't like Overguard and I think it is very unnecessary when we could just nerf the problematic abilities that are/were being abused. Important enemies, as far as I can remember, were already ability (and sometimes status) resistant or immune, anyways. But like some say, "suck it up and git gud". OK, it's probably for the best, right?

 One or two patches later, Mesmer skin (which is now even stronger than before overguard was a thing) gets a buff which basically allows Revenant to go back into ignoring Eximi, or rather most if not all enemies, like he used to. Equip Intensify and Augur Secrets and get a minimun 9 seconds of immortality, for a super expensive 50 energy.

 Is this balance? Eximi must be a threat to Banshee and killed in milliseconds, lest the heavy gunner punches 20 holes per second in your pretty banshee prime. But tank frame can press tank key and dance around 10 eximi?

 "But! But! My 20 stacks were vaporizing in an instant!"
 Yes, (no longer) a threat.

 Warframe is a good game. But Warframe would be a great game if it had less double standards and more actual balance. 👍

I mean, a Revenant (the mythical creature) is literally unkillable, completely immortal. It just works you know. 

I guess you'll have to suck it up.

 

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On 2022-09-14 at 5:21 PM, Venefik said:

 The introduction of Overguard indirectly nerfed CC because Eximi are supposed to be a threat. I personally don't like Overguard and I think it is very unnecessary when we could just nerf the problematic abilities that are/were being abused. Important enemies, as far as I can remember, were already ability (and sometimes status) resistant or immune, anyways. But like some say, "suck it up and git gud". OK, it's probably for the best, right?

 One or two patches later, Mesmer skin (which is now even stronger than before overguard was a thing) gets a buff which basically allows Revenant to go back into ignoring Eximi, or rather most if not all enemies, like he used to. Equip Intensify and Augur Secrets and get a minimun 9 seconds of immortality, for a super expensive 50 energy.

 Is this balance? Eximi must be a threat to Banshee and killed in milliseconds, lest the heavy gunner punches 20 holes per second in your pretty banshee prime. But tank frame can press tank key and dance around 10 eximi?

 "But! But! My 20 stacks were vaporizing in an instant!"
 Yes, (no longer) a threat.

 Warframe is a good game. But Warframe would be a great game if it had less double standards and more actual balance. 👍

The mesmer skin could use a buff, but its kinda over tuned imo, could be a 0.5s, or i think 0.33s of invul time instead of 1s, since eximus units kinda less now, your cc on 2 still works on casual enemies.

 

Regarding to the eximus changes, my opinion is:

large area cc was very broken past days due to not even one can hurt u.

Now just delete eximus fast imo, its that simple, others still cant hurt you like always.

cc frames will always be ok like always, its just having a few potential threat only unlike past's pure braindead gameplays. People just dont want to use any of their brain power to do anything than carpet bombing and assimilate themselves into their definition of "power fantasy".

tbh, the nature of dps frames lacks any cc to get themselves a breathing room if you dont kill anything faster like normal (e.g ability nuke on SP, since all nuking abilities are severely weakened on SP.)

CC will always be more valuable when enemies get stronger.

that's why magus lockdown on operator is always so valuable and its a must to have.

And I agree with your last sentence.

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

I mean, a Revenant (the mythical creature) is literally unkillable, completely immortal. It just works you know. 

I guess you'll have to suck it up.

 

  ...That might be a reference or inspiration for Revenant. But it doesn't have anything to do with how the game is developed in the grand scheme of things.

 And Revenant is a name that references his Eidolon theme, because Eidolons are spectral Sentients. It doesn't have anything to do with actually being undead or immortal. And last I heard, Eidolons were pretty killable, no? Yes, dying. Something which literally doesn't happen to Revenant, unless of course you take afk playstyle into the next level and literally actually leave your pc in the middle of a mission. At which point, if you at least cast mesmer skin before leaving, you'll have plenty of seconds to think in case you feel like coming back.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Amolistic. said:

The mesmer skin could use a buff, but its kinda over tuned imo, could be a 0.5s, or i think 0.33s of invul time instead of 1s, since eximus units kinda less now, your cc on 2 still works on casual enemies.

 

Regarding to the eximus changes, my opinion is:

large area cc was very broken past days due to not even one can hurt u.

Now just delete eximus fast imo, its that simple, others still cant hurt you like always.

cc frames will always be ok like always, its just having a few potential threat only unlike past's pure braindead gameplays. People just dont want to use any of their brain power to do anything than carpet bombing and assimilate themselves into their definition of "power fantasy".

tbh, the nature of dps frames lacks any cc to get themselves a breathing room if you dont kill anything faster like normal (e.g ability nuke on SP, since all nuking abilities are severely weakened on SP.)

CC will always be more valuable when enemies get stronger.

that's why magus lockdown on operator is always so valuable and its a must to have.

And I agree with your last sentence.

 I don't have problems with overguard as in ingame (except for maybe the lighter, squishier units that have HUGE FAT overguard pools, I hate those), my problem is how overguard is a bandaid that was put over cc because DE probably doesn't feel like dealing with some player's BS complaining over gloom nerfs. This is bad because at one point or another, these abilities will break content again. And this is where my BIG problem comes into play. This causes generalized nerfs at some points. See how in a recent patch they removed from summons the ability to draw aggro from Archons? Why? Why razorflies, that spawn and in most cases, get immediately swatted, had to be nerfed? Of all things? Oh, right. Because Resonator exists and for some reason it was thrown into the summon category even though it doesn't have health or damage and is literally just a moving AoE. If, maybe, this very overtuned ability was just nerfed while it waits for an iteration of itself that isn't as broken, we wouldn't have had a second episode with it. And I wonder how many more of these episodes we'll have? Okayish and sometimes even pretty below average abilities getting the short end of the stick just so it's possible to contain one or two outliers.

 And the reason I assume that overguard was a way to avoid direct nerfs: Like I previously said, tanking skills exist. Stealth skills also exist. There are videos of stealth frames literally standing still while farming for Boreal headshots and finishing the mission in a pretty impressive and short amount of time, at least for content that is new.   And tanking skills, as we previously have seen with Revenant, are being buffed instead of rebalanced alongside CC.
 Huh? Did I miss something? Is it common sense that pressing a button to become immortal or undetectable is more challenging and engaging than pressing a button for mass control? I can't see how any of this makes sense.

 I agree with a lot of what you've stated as well. I don't hate Revenant or anything, and I don't mind him being a solid, survivable frame. He just so happens to be very absurd, and DE didn't even let the fresh cc corpses cool down before buffing him lmao. I mean, when overguard first released, even the Zymos got hit. Last time I tried using it, I got completely frustrated over the fact that the headshot mechanic didn't work because it's tied to a mini stun which Eximi would resist because of cc immunity. It's special swarm projectiles (the cool part about the weapon) would then not trigger. This is what I call a truly short end of a very salty stick. >:V

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On 2022-09-14 at 6:24 PM, Tiltskillet said:

It still works, but it's a lot more challenging. 

 

 So she WAS a good example. After all, all I meant to say is that Eximus are a threat to her because she is squishy, and she needs to be on her toes. Otherwise, she has no op skin skill to count on.

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18 minutes ago, Venefik said:

 I don't have problems with overguard as in ingame (except for maybe the lighter, squishier units that have HUGE FAT overguard pools, I hate those), my problem is how overguard is a bandaid that was put over cc because DE probably doesn't feel like dealing with some player's BS complaining over gloom nerfs. This is bad because at one point or another, these abilities will break content again. And this is where my BIG problem comes into play. This causes generalized nerfs at some points. See how in a recent patch they removed from summons the ability to draw aggro from Archons? Why? Why razorflies, that spawn and in most cases, get immediately swatted, had to be nerfed? Of all things? Oh, right. Because Resonator exists and for some reason it was thrown into the summon category even though it doesn't have health or damage and is literally just a moving AoE. If, maybe, this very overtuned ability was just nerfed while it waits for an iteration of itself that isn't as broken, we wouldn't have had a second episode with it. And I wonder how many more of these episodes we'll have? Okayish and sometimes even pretty below average abilities getting the short end of the stick just so it's possible to contain one or two outliers.

 And the reason I assume that overguard was a way to avoid direct nerfs: Like I previously said, tanking skills exist. Stealth skills also exist. There are videos of stealth frames literally standing still while farming for Boreal headshots and finishing the mission in a pretty impressive and short amount of time, at least for content that is new.   And tanking skills, as we previously have seen with Revenant, are being buffed instead of rebalanced alongside CC.
 Huh? Did I miss something? Is it common sense that pressing a button to become immortal or undetectable is more challenging and engaging than pressing a button for mass control? I can't see how any of this makes sense.

 I agree with a lot of what you've stated as well. I don't hate Revenant or anything, and I don't mind him being a solid, survivable frame. He just so happens to be very absurd, and DE didn't even let the fresh cc corpses cool down before buffing him lmao. I mean, when overguard first released, even the Zymos got hit. Last time I tried using it, I got completely frustrated over the fact that the headshot mechanic didn't work because it's tied to a mini stun which Eximi would resist because of cc immunity. It's special swarm projectiles (the cool part about the weapon) would then not trigger. This is what I call a truly short end of a very salty stick. >:V

yeah, i can understand and agree, cc could use some buffs too like revenant, at least give them something more to work around will be nice.

its kinda sad for other frames to be in this crossfire of summon changes too, same as the ammo changes everyone was talking and critiquing about.

also, sad for your zymos build. hope you can find a solution to play around it...

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Le 14/09/2022 à 13:22, BR31 a dit :

You do know that his prime is coming? So it was expected. 

I think you're right. Just before a new Prime release, the warframe gets a little buff.

il y a 5 minutes, Venefik a dit :

So she WAS a good example. After all, all I meant to say is that Eximus are a threat to her because she is squishy, and she needs to be in her toes. Otherwise, she has no op skin skill to count on.

Revenant is not the only frame that can ignore damage like that : Valkyr and Nyx can also do the same, but the energy cost will be greater and you'll lose some possibilities  of gameplay in return (Valkyr won't be able to use ranged weapons, and Nyx will get her speed reduced and will be unable to jump). Also, Shild gate can do the same thing, but the effort you need to shield gate is much greater than just using Mesmer Skin.

But I thing Mesmer Skin is really too much.

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5 hours ago, Venefik said:

So she WAS a good example.

If you like.  It would have better to have specified "...this very specific, little used, minimal range Banshee build" though. 

The paradox is that Silence is more valuable in her kit than ever.   It's just the reason that's so has also made minimal range Silence challenging for her.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Venefik said:

Huh? Did I miss something? Is it common sense that pressing a button to become immortal or undetectable is more challenging and engaging than pressing a button for mass control? I can't see how any of this makes sense.

Being unkillable doesn't help you complete the mission, or we'd all just crouch around in Operator mode a bunch. Warframe is a game far more about killing than about not dying. and half of the game involves keeping enemies off a defense target or capture point. Eximus Overguard is in a really good place right now IMO. It means every eximus unit is a threat you have to deal with right away, whether or not you're invulnerable while doing. 

The Mesmer Skin change doesn't undercut that, it just removes an unintended interaction. You can sit around being invincible against eximi like any other invulnerability a frame can enjoy, but it doesn't actually help you kill them. We have plenty of damage and debuff abilities and all of our weapons for that, but those have to be targeted. Which is no different from, say, Ancient Healers canceling Nezha's Divine Spears when I started playing in 2017, except that instead of being a piecemeal choice of which CC abilities affect or can be canceled by which heavies, it's a simple rule across the board.

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7 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Being unkillable doesn't help you complete the mission

Confused Little Girl GIF

 Archon hunts have just been released, where players get no revives during these missions. Some Narmer units can unleash light blasts that deal over 60k damage, and that is apparently AFTER the nerfs they took. If I'm playing some squishy frame, I am obviously going to look out for the beams that telegraph the attack and dodge. And even with the more durable frames: not having shield gating when you get hit by that, will down you even with high health and armor. There is no reason to sit there and face tank it. Meanwhile, immortal Revenant doesn't care, because by the time any hard hitting attack conects to him, a random bullet probably has already triggered the invul period. There is literally no reason to even move. What's the worst that can happen? Loose a stack 0,000002s sooner? Lmao. How can something like this NOT help you clear a mission? It is MUCH easier to kill enemies when you can ignore them when compared to when you are fighting for your life. And you can't deny that: it's the whole reason overguard exists in the first place.

 The thing is: normal enemies still couldn't harm him, where only Eximus were a problem. He was IMO in a good spot, because it was very similar to cc frames in regards to overguad. You said it yourself: Overguard is in a pretty good spot. And so, if Eximi should be a threat to all, what makes Mesmer Skin being less effective against them an "unintended interaction"? Even if he was bleeding stacks, every single stack is one less instance of damage. That is more time to attack, reposition, etc.
In fact, he was actually still in a better spot than most squishy frames, because even if Mesmer skin failed him, he could still count on his very large shield pool and Reave's own invul period.

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On 2022-09-14 at 5:21 AM, Venefik said:

 The introduction of Overguard indirectly nerfed CC because Eximi are supposed to be a threat. I personally don't like Overguard and I think it is very unnecessary when we could just nerf the problematic abilities that are/were being abused. Important enemies, as far as I can remember, were already ability (and sometimes status) resistant or immune, anyways. But like some say, "suck it up and git gud". OK, it's probably for the best, right?

 One or two patches later, Mesmer skin (which is now even stronger than before overguard was a thing) gets a buff which basically allows Revenant to go back into ignoring Eximi, or rather most if not all enemies, like he used to. Equip Intensify and Augur Secrets and get a minimun 9 seconds of immortality, for a super expensive 50 energy.

 Is this balance? Eximi must be a threat to Banshee and killed in milliseconds, lest the heavy gunner punches 20 holes per second in your pretty banshee prime. But tank frame can press tank key and dance around 10 eximi?

 "But! But! My 20 stacks were vaporizing in an instant!"
 Yes, (no longer) a threat.

 Warframe is a good game. But Warframe would be a great game if it had less double standards and more actual balance. 👍

That's how tank frames work. 

Dps characters do the most damage. 

Support characters heal and buff the team, which allows everyone to become much more powerful. 

Tank frames are hard to kill and in many cases are incredibly self sufficient. However they aren't as supportive or aggressive as the other two. 

That's how it is in any game with classes. This is nothing new. 

Don't believe me? Look at Warrior in FFXIV.

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11 hours ago, Venefik said:

Archon hunts have just been released, where players get no revives during these missions. Some Narmer units can unleash light blasts that deal over 60k damage, and that is apparently AFTER the nerfs they took. If I'm playing some squishy frame, I am obviously going to look out for the beams that telegraph the attack and dodge. And even with the more durable frames: not having shield gating when you get hit by that, will down you even with high health and armor. There is no reason to sit there and face tank it. Meanwhile, immortal Revenant doesn't care, because by the time any hard hitting attack conects to him, a random bullet probably has already triggered the invul period. There is literally no reason to even move. What's the worst that can happen? Loose a stack 0,000002s sooner? Lmao. How can something like this NOT help you clear a mission? It is MUCH easier to kill enemies when you can ignore them when compared to when you are fighting for your life. And you can't deny that: it's the whole reason overguard exists in the first place.

I think I'm probably replying to the bit I quoted from your previous post out of context. As concerns overguard, I think there really is a big difference between the enemies being immune to CC, and their not being immune to the fact that you're invincible or invisible. In the vast majority of mission types, you have objectives other than just surviving long enough to kill a boss. Like again, you can choose to be invisible and invulnerable at any time no matter what frame you're using with Operator mode - you're not going to be doing much else while you're at it - but being able to stun everyone in the room no matter who shows up is off the table now. If archons (who aren't eximi to begin with) are ignoring decoys now, that's BS and I hate it, which is totally unrelated to the fact that I beat Amar this week using Protea with Molt to keep him out of my damn face while I shot at him. 

I do think the fact that eximi could just delete Revenant's Mesmer Skin was a bad interaction, but I'm open to the idea that the solution is worse than the problem was.

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On 2022-09-14 at 9:23 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

When it comes to Revenant there is no consideration of balance.

The now current creative director has such a strong emotional attachment to him, given the fact that they made him, that they cried over him getting a deluxe, and his one shot being conveniently overlooked when DE was removing 1 shot mechanics from the game.

it’s a blatant act of favoritism that I called out the other week.

And honestly at this point IDK why they even bothered with the 1 second grace period. They could’ve just fully acknowledged how bad the charges system is for a tank ability and just removed the charges entirely and made it 10 seconds of invulnerability.

Why are you upset? Didn't you say that Revenant should be buffed? They buffed him so now Revenant no longer is threatened by arbitration drones or eximus heavy gunners. This is what you wanted, why are you upset?

Also developers are allowed to like things; it happens all the time. If you really think DE is impartial to every Warframe, why isn't Yareli as op as everyone else?

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On 2022-09-16 at 5:31 AM, Venefik said:

 So she WAS a good example. After all, all I meant to say is that Eximus are a threat to her because she is squishy, and she needs to be on her toes. Otherwise, she has no op skin skill to count on.

Literally nobody is braindead invincible like Revenant, your argument is trash, because he is definitely an exception since ages ago.

 

Edit: he was ALWAYS meant to be invincible, completely immortal and unkillable.

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