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DE is slowly changing the pace of Warframe, and that's a good thing


-Moctezuma-

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It is clear to me that DE is up to something, with the recent AOE nerf, and the introduction of more complex slower paced missions in which you require to use your brain and not just clear thru everything as usual, it shows that DE wants to slowly change the pace of Warframe to a slightly more slowed pace Gameplay.

- In regards to the new Kahl garrison mission, it is not 100% perfect and it has many flaws, like the sluggish and tedious movement that Kahl has, for example you cannot perform a slam attack, when you get knocked down by enemies it takes like 4 seconds to get up, etc, but the base concept and idea behind these missions are great, it's mostly impatient people who dislike the concept of taking the time to figure out puzzles and sneaking past enemies, it is a nice break from the regular Warframe gameplay (which requires 0 brainpower), 

- some people are happy that Warframe is moving towards a slower paced gameplay, and others are angry and "qutting" the game over it, I don't think many people realize both can co-exist, Warframe is a BIG and diverse game, and the upcoming Duviri Paradox will expand that diversity with operator-horse  gameplay, not all of Warframe has to be centered on Warframes themselves, I support improving Kahl garrison missions, but outrigth removing the stealth and complex part of it, only to turn it into a goofy extermination mission wouldn't be the best idea,     take for example The New War Kahl segment, sure it is epic at first, but it's a short segment, if it was way longer, it would have gotten boring and repetitive because you are very limited with the slow movement and equipment kahl has, aswell as abilities, which is why I believe a diferent aproach (like the one DE took) was necessary

- We also have to realize that a lot of the recent Kahl garrison complains, have been because some people are desperate and only care to get the Chip rewards, apparently for them, finishing the mission in 15 minutes is impossible on the first run (ignoring the fact that you can run the mission as much times as you want, for 4 days), or they also don't figure out that you can shock any enemy, including deacons, with the veilbreaker shock ability, making the mission a breeze, critical thinking isn't something a player does regularly on Warframe, which is why it is understandable some people will complain about this

- The Concept and idea behind Narmer "stealth" missions is great, the execution, however, is not, Some waypoints in the minimap simply don't make sense, finishers being non existant against moas makes no sense, since you are trying to go stealthy, and please, make the Cameras look actually like Cameras and not floating propaganda machines (I mistaken them for the propaganda machines in Archon hunt missions), I think DE should take inspiration from the Deus Ex games for these type of stealth sections               

- I think DE should allow for 2 ways to get what chip offers in the Kahl camp, you don't want to play the difficult and complex Kahl missions to get those rewards? well you can get them in other non kahl missions , instead it would be in regular Warframe missions,  but of course the way to get those things would be RNG. and low RNG, that's the tradeoff, if you don't wanna play them missions,  here is another way to get em, of course it may take longer to get those items that you want because of RNG

- And MOST IMPORTANTLY, this is just 1 out of 3 missions that Kahl has, the rest won't be stealthy like this, so settle down and chill out with "I am quitting the game!" over one mission type....

sV5h3Y2.png

 

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I feel like the problem cropping up with slower missions like Kahl's is that it's part of the mainline, rather than an alternate route. It's not like, "you can RNG grind Styanax in this Exterminate mission, or you can do these slower-paced missions with guaranteed reward progression". It's "if you want Styanax, you play the slow mission". Opinions don't tend to be quite as favourable when a player is railroaded into that kind of a shift.

2 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

I don't think that both styles, slow and fast, can coexist, a game needs to have its own identity, trying to please everyone, results in not pleasing anyone, for me warframe is just turning into a patchwork box, and worse with several holes and lack of polish.

Much as I might otherwise agree on the identity thing, it's been a patchwork since Spy and Exterminate took up space in the starchart. At this point, the patchwork and developer experimentation is the identity.

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35 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

I also wonder what the long term look for Warframe is. 🤔

There is a pretty obvious reason Steve and some OG devs left to make Soulframe, Warframe is a castle built upon the ruins of another castle, which in turn was built upon the ruins of another castle, or atleast that' how steve explained Warframe in an interview

If the devs wanted to fix the major problems that Warframe has, such as the lack of difficulty which is caused mainly by how powerful and fast we are, they would have to remove and replace a looot of stuff, starting from scratch, which would result in community outrage, so they decided to leave and start from scratch with a new game, and I don't blame them

Rebecca is now left with a difficult job, the future of warframe is uncertain

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3 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I feel like the problem cropping up with slower missions like Kahl's is that it's part of the mainline, rather than an alternate route. It's not like, "you can RNG grind Styanax in this Exterminate mission, or you can do these slower-paced missions with guaranteed reward progression". It's "if you want Styanax, you play the slow mission". Opinions don't tend to be quite as favourable when a player is railroaded into that kind of a shift.

Much as I might otherwise agree on the identity thing, it's been a patchwork since Spy and Exterminate took up space in the starchart. At this point, the patchwork and developer experimentation is the identity.

If experimentation is identity, then we will always live with an unfinished and polarized game, a rather sad fate for me.

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1 minute ago, RafMatador22 said:

If experimentation is identity, then we will always live with an unfinished and polarized game, a rather sad fate for me.

To this, I have two thoughts:

1. Being that it's a game-as-a-service, is it ever really finished?

2. Experimentation, to me, begets science: knowledge and wonder and curiosity. Sure, it's not a fine art, there's no finished product, no clean lines to appreciate. But I think there's still an artistry to it, the willingness to push the edge and try sometimes crazy things.

Of course, I'd still very much love if they could rehash a lot of things, put more polish in, glue more pieces together, trim off some unnecessary tidbits so that the front-to-back experience feels much cleaner and cohesive. But I also think, if they did something like that, it would be something for a finale, a capstone on the Warframe project. Like, no more updates, here's the executable download, have fun with our history. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see that kind of polish happening unless it was the end.

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I often describe the problem in warframe as a low tactics high strategy problem. The game at present is very non-interactive. You have a strategy that starts at the loadout and missions are mostly about executing it. Slowing the pace of the game a little creates some space for tactical decisions. The recent changes to eximus do the same. They tried to do it with the enemies in Deimos a little, but the payoff isn't really there. Players in general are really resistant to anything that makes them deviate from their strategy mid mission.

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33 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

you can RNG grind Styanax in this Exterminate mission, or you can do these slower-paced missions with guaranteed reward progression". It's "if you want Styanax, you play the slow mission". Opinions don't tend to be quite as favourable when a player is railroaded into that kind of a shift.

I agree with this, and I think DE should add a regular non kahl mission way to get those things, of course it MAY take longer because of the RNG, but that's the trade off, you don't want to play slow and difficult Garrison kahl missions? well here is another way.

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1 hour ago, -Moctezuma- said:

- I think DE should allow for 2 ways to get what chip offers in the Kahl camp, you don't want to play the difficult and complex Kahl missions to get those rewards? well you can get them in other non kahl missions , instead it would be in regular Warframe missions,  but of course the way to get those things would be RNG. and low RNG, that's the tradeoff, if you don't wanna play them missions,  here is another way to get em, of course it may take longer to get those items that you want because of RNG

I do not see an alternative path to get styanax or other garrison gear being implemented,

cause there is already an alternate path - the platinum path.

Not pretty , but we know why this exists,

1 hour ago, -Moctezuma- said:

It is clear to me that DE is up to something, with the recent AOE nerf, and the introduction of more complex slower paced missions in which you require to use your brain and not just clear thru everything as usual, it shows that DE wants to slowly change the pace of Warframe to a slightly more slowed pace Gameplay.

I feel they have started it since previous tenno con or ever since they introduced Orphix missions, where the gameplay is focused away from warframes for a significant chunk of the mission time cause they realised how difficult it was to build around the thousands of combinations of frame and weapon interactions.

And yes , the mission is not perfect , it is also not warframe as we know it.

It would be better as an invasion+ kind of a setup where you start the mission as kahl and you are responsible for disabling the orphix fields to then move into the regular gameplay ,

its still early so we might see that,

 

 

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38分钟前 , 0_The_F00l 说:

I do not see an alternative path to get styanax or other garrison gear being implemented,

cause there is already an alternate path - the platinum path.

Not pretty , but we know why this exists,

I feel they have started it since previous tenno con or ever since they introduced Orphix missions, where the gameplay is focused away from warframes for a significant chunk of the mission time cause they realised how difficult it was to build around the thousands of combinations of frame and weapon interactions.

And yes , the mission is not perfect , it is also not warframe as we know it.

It would be better as an invasion+ kind of a setup where you start the mission as kahl and you are responsible for disabling the orphix fields to then move into the regular gameplay ,

its still early so we might see that,

 

 

Orhpix is a total failure because they want you to player without warframe, but the alternative (necramech) at that time was locked behind like 10 hours grind wall in Deimos. When Orphix Venom was first introduced, if you do not have a necramech, the mission basically tells you to f off. 

The necramech issue was not resolved until after some time of TNW. The railjack Orphix *should work* this time, but DE messed up the spawn timer and the game mode again becomes unplayable. 

That's why the mini-Orphix known as void cascade was so popular. It is fast pace and intense. There is no pre-requisite. The spawn timer is just right. The reward is good. It is everything that Orhpix failed. 

I agree with your observation that DE is moving away from our usual arsenal when building challenges. Two pronged approaches - harder contents in Zariman and Archon sortie for your usual arsenal, and alternative play style in Kahl mission and in the future Duviri Paradox. I like both of them. 

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19 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Orhpix is a total failure because they want you to player without warframe, but the alternative (necramech) at that time was locked behind like 10 hours grind wall in Deimos. When Orphix Venom was first introduced, if you do not have a necramech, the mission basically tells you to f off. 

The necramech issue was not resolved until after some time of TNW. The railjack Orphix *should work* this time, but DE messed up the spawn timer and the game mode again becomes unplayable.

I dont want to defend or denounce orphix venom itself ,

just highlighting it was when they started betting on non warframe gameplay (some would argue they started with eidolons , but that doesnt disable war frames , just makes it relatively useless).

22 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

That's why the mini-Orphix known as void cascade was so popular. It is fast pace and intense. There is no pre-requisite. The spawn timer is just right. The reward is good. It is everything that Orhpix failed.

Lets not forget it came on the trail of focus rework , if we were still on the old focus that may be just as annoying, if the focus rework came with orphix it may have been recieved similarly.

23 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

I agree with your observation that DE is moving away from our usual arsenal when building challenges. Two pronged approaches - harder contents in Zariman and Archon sortie for your usual arsenal, and alternative play style in Kahl mission and in the future Duviri Paradox. I like both of them. 

I do like em , challenging content for those that want to engage with the game,

And for those that dont like em ... too bad i guess , cant please everyone , good thing they still have everything else in between.

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3 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

- And MOST IMPORTANTLY, this is just 1 out of 3 missions that Kahl has, the rest won't be stealthy like this, so settle down and chill out with "I am quitting the game!" over one mission type....

I am 100% convinced that most of Veilbreaker's blowback has been from starting out on the wrong foot.

"Oh this isn't Warframe, why can't I use Warframes?" Normally I think this is asinine, but they have a point during stealth. Kahl combat feels like Warframe combat, but Kahl stealth is nothing like Warframe stealth. Warframe stealth is about abusing abilities, silent weapons, and sheer speed. Kahl stealth is much more "classic" video game stealth: learning map layouts, enemy patrols, and most importantly patience.

I'm fine with a change of gameplay, but since hindsight is 20/20 they should have weaned the fanbase into it better.

I mean look at the other two missions:

3 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

sV5h3Y2.png

 

Why not reverse the order? Why not save Chipper from the Murex  -- a big combat mission to win us over on this new gameplay format -- then build his Thumper, then use THAT at the end of the sneaky sabotage? Call it down as our hammer of justice to smash up some Deacons

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3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

2. Experimentation, to me, begets science: knowledge and wonder and curiosity. Sure, it's not a fine art, there's no finished product, no clean lines to appreciate. But I think there's still an artistry to it, the willingness to push the edge and try sometimes crazy things.

For me, a major appeal of Warframe is specifically that DE are willing to experiment, rework, and just plain be weird. It makes it feel more like the game is what the devs want to make, regardless of expectations. To me, if they just focused on the core warframe gameplay to the exclusion of all others, it would be a much less interesting game.

Would I appreciate a bit more polish? Certainly. But never at the expense of creativity.

31 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

 

Why not reverse the order? Why not save Chipper from the Murex  -- a big combat mission to win us over on this new gameplay format -- then build his Thumper, then use THAT at the end of the sneaky sabotage? Call it down as our hammer of justice to smash up some Deacons

Setting aside the logistical issues of getting a thumper into such an enclosed space, I feel it's worth pointing out that we already get two full combat missions with Kahl prior to Sneaky Sabotage, in his segments of The New War and Veilbreaker. I think putting the mission with the greatest deviation from the two prior ones (being a stealth mission where you don't get a firearm until the penultimate section) right in the middle makes sense in order to show the potential variance in the missions.

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3 hours ago, RafMatador22 said:

I don't think that both styles, slow and fast, can coexist, a game needs to have its own identity, trying to please everyone, results in not pleasing anyone, for me warframe is just turning into a patchwork box, and worse with several holes and lack of polish.

It's actually easy for it to coexist

It already does. Exterminate has a different pace to Defense which has a different pace to Interception which has a different pace again to Mobile Defense ... etc etc. All of which feel different  to the new missions on Zariman. 

Mission type is what should determine the gameplay pace and feel, not some misguided notion that all content has to feel exactly the same. 

People will play the content they enjoy best. But sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone and try something new to get a new reward. If you don't like it, do the base minimum to get what you need and never touch it again

I'd much rather see DE get creative with wildly different mission structures as it keeps the game feeling fresh, even if the mission isn't entirely to my taste. 

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Doing archon hunts in rescue mission, someone mr25 in my pubs failed 3 times in a row trying to hack a door. I did it in the last seconds by spamming X being behind of him, and i already knew i he was going to fail again

This is funny yea, but its also pretty good for warframe players need at least a little of challenge and a decent chance to fail missions.

One thing i dislike so much, searching bugged kdrives clipping the ground and searching bodies around the map for the next hour. And being honest after zariman plume farming, adding this "mechanic" in to khal mission its a bad choice but anyways the core mission its solid i needed to check what is happening around and think for these puzzles. Reminds me to resident evil 3 or silent hill puzzles..

Anyways rewards are garbage and im not that hyped by these archon shards, yea adds you more power but its not necessary at this point of the game

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It isn't new though.

Walking around the crime scene was the same.

You have to click something and we are going to hide it, and I still maintain the 'evidence' items had a spawn timer on them, just to stall and waste time.

It wasn't enough to block you from jogging or running, they decided to actually remove the items from spawning, exclusively to waste time.

There isn't any meaningful gameplay, challenge or lore behind it.

 

It's kind of like forcing you to watch cutscenes. What is the confidence level in their content that is forced down your throat.

... which ironically is what ruins it.

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5 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

It is clear to me that DE is up to something, with the recent AOE nerf, and the introduction of more complex slower paced missions in which you require to use your brain and not just clear thru everything as usual, it shows that DE wants to slowly change the pace of Warframe to a slightly more slowed pace Gameplay.

And yet new "more complex slower paced missions" are lacking basic logic and functions, as you describe later in your post. A.k.a. they are half-a. Maybe, if players were given solid gameplay from the start, they would like it more?

5 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

critical thinking isn't something a player does regularly on Warframe, which is why it is understandable some people will complain about this

Indeed... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/critical

lol, neither do "yes" people.

--------------

4 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

If the devs wanted to fix the major problems that Warframe has, such as the lack of difficulty which is caused mainly by how powerful and fast we are, they would have to remove and replace a looot of stuff, starting from scratch, which would result in community outrage, so they decided to leave and start from scratch with a new game, and I don't blame them.

No offense, but:

5 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

critical thinking isn't something a player does regularly on Warframe

I mean, I don't want Soulframe to fail, but eventually they will "ruin" it as they "ruined" Warframe.

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2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

"Oh this isn't Warframe, why can't I use Warframes?" Normally I think this is asinine, but they have a point during stealth. Kahl combat feels like Warframe combat, but Kahl stealth is nothing like Warframe stealth. Warframe stealth is about abusing abilities, silent weapons, and sheer speed. Kahl stealth is much more "classic" video game stealth: learning map layouts, enemy patrols, and most importantly patience.

The mission is perfectly doable at Kahls slow sprint speed, running up to deacons and stunning them with the third ability, no stealth or patience required.

 

5 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

- And MOST IMPORTANTLY, this is just 1 out of 3 missions that Kahl has, the rest won't be stealthy like this, so settle down and chill out with "I am quitting the game!" over one mission type....

Yes the same three missions that will be cycled through every week, best case for us is that there are different secondary objectives and it takes a few cycles to get completely boring, worse case is the collectibles just spawn in different places.

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for me, the Kahl gameplay is at it's best when he has firepower: it's about the only thing that lets him efficiently compete with what are otherwise enemies meant for Tenno. I did the sabotage and it was alright, but nowhere near as enjoyable as his New War Debut or Veilbreaker's Intro Quest was. I'm sure I'm not the only one that likes to see Kahl doing what he does best: wielding big grineer weapons and slaying armies of Narmer, not sneaking around with nothing but a machete. if it was Drifter having to be stealthy again, I'd be fine with it, but even thoguh Kahl can sneak, I don't feel like he should have to, at least not that often.

that said I'm sure the other 2 missions will hopefully be a lot more action-oriented. I thought there'd be more than just 3 though.. but who knows maybe more will get added in future. this is all just my opinion, and I've never really been a fan of "no guns, stealth only" in games where it isn't really designed that way from the start: stealth as a whole is long overdue a rework, but that's another issue entirely..

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Duviri Paradox aside, I really want them to slowly but surely fix some of the game's issues, bugs, designs, and stuff. I don't mind how long it takes, I also don't mind fewer contents with slower release, I prefer a polished game. Changing AoE and Wukong is a step in the right direction. 

I put faith in the new developer team. 

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7 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

It is clear to me that DE is up to something, with the recent AOE nerf, and the introduction of more complex slower paced missions in which you require to use your brain and not just clear thru everything as usual, it shows that DE wants to slowly change the pace of Warframe to a slightly more slowed pace Gameplay.

We must have played two very different missions if you found complexity anywhere or the need to use your brain. Kahl was already slow enough as a gameplay addition to change the pace in a good way. The Sneaky Sabotage had nothing of that. It felt like playing your avarage sabotage or spy mission at a slower pace. I didnt even feel like I was playing badass Kahl from the TNW/Veilbreaker quests.

It was neither difficult nor complex, just slow and boring. I hope the upcoming missions will be much better and by much I mean much. As you said, sneaky sabotage may not be 100% perfect and it has many flaws, so me it's more that it isnt even 10% perfect and overshadowed with flaws in so many ways. From lacking Kahl combat to being some scavanger mini-game that makes no sense lorewise, to progression halting bugs that you wont experience until the very very last step. When you might have already spent 20 minutes rummaging through the map finding all those pointless side objectives, that you then get no benefit from since you need to abort the mission.

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4 hours ago, Corvid said:

Setting aside the logistical issues of getting a thumper into such an enclosed space,

That didn't stop them from giving you an orbital strike

4 hours ago, Corvid said:

 I feel it's worth pointing out that we already get two full combat missions with Kahl prior to Sneaky Sabotage, in his segments of The New War and Veilbreaker. I think putting the mission with the greatest deviation from the two prior ones (being a stealth mission where you don't get a firearm until the penultimate section) right in the middle makes sense in order to show the potential variance in the missions.

I guess if you're not worried about the optics of your new game mode that would make sense. Everything in life is a trade off

2 hours ago, L3512 said:

The mission is perfectly doable at Kahls slow sprint speed, running up to deacons and stunning them with the third ability, no stealth or patience required.

Kinda missing my point, you need to have memorized the map and patrols to do that, which is how stealth works in other stealth games

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