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Balancing conditional damage mods/arcanes with constant damage mods


Juthoth

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I have played Warframe for so many years now that I have seen the evolution of how mods work. From just regular damage to exponential Condition Overload to the current state where conditional damage mods/arcanes make constant damage mods pretty much useless in most instances. (higher lvl content)

For the longest there has been a problem in Warframe with "mandatory" mods and "recent" additions have achieved what they sure were intended to to i.e. making damage mod non mandatory, often useless outside cases were you cannot proc the conditions. While this might be better than before this has its problems. I think we should have reason to use Serration with Galvanized Aptitude and Primary Arcanes.

While now it is usually always worse than multishot, elemental, and critical mods. I have an idea that might make it more in line with the multishot and such.

 

Example of how this would work:

Serration now: +165% damage additive with Primary Merciless ect.

My version of Serration: 130% additive with Primary Merciless ect. and +30% multiplicative with Primary Merciless, etc. (values are just to demonstrate they may be lower or higher)

 

Now when conditional damage buff is not present, this would give +169% damage (130%*1,3) and in case where we have conditional damage mods, this is essentially slightly worse version of faction mods with lower value and no double dipping with damagin status effects. With approppriate values this would not raise damages too much, but would make damage mods usable again even in higher level content.

 

I think this would increase the enrich modding system while not causing too much power creep.

 

Comments? Flaws? Would you support this?

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9 minutes ago, Juthoth said:

I think this would increase the enrich modding system while not causing too much power creep.

 

Comments? Flaws? Would you support this?

To me it seems less like enrichment and more like needless complication.  To a system that's already plenty complicated.  And I don't really understand the appeal of  "Justice for Damage Mods" anyway.  They're just mods--I doubt they brood over their fall from grace. :P

They're still sometimes useful by the way.  Compared to before where they were an auto-slot 99% of the time, "sometimes useful" is quite refreshing.

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I don't think this is necessary ,

Condition mods are fine where they are and so are base damage mods , 

And merciless is also only one arcane , there are others that can be used with more effectiveness with base damage mods.

I am personally of the opinion that the game needs fewer multipliers , not more.

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30 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

To me it seems less like enrichment and more like needless complication.  To a system that's already plenty complicated.  And I don't really understand the appeal of  "Justice for Damage Mods" anyway.  They're just mods--I doubt they brood over their fall from grace. :P

They're still sometimes useful by the way.  Compared to before where they were an auto-slot 99% of the time, "sometimes useful" is quite refreshing.

I do understand your perspective, but I guess we can agree to disagree on this. I personally dont find this complicated, but cannot obviously speak for every one.

My intension was not to make justice movement for damage mods but rather give suggestion that might improve gameplay. :D 

I can think offew good reasons to do this.

1. It would effectively allow lazy players such as myself to not lose 1/3 of potential damage output wgen not bothering to use faction mods (primed).

2. Now that damage is no longer wanted in rivens it narrows down the good rolls making good riven rolls even more rare than they are now and inflating the prices. (I personally dont really engage in riven trading, but I have heard enough to know how toxic it can be)

3. Now that DE seems to be making bosses vulnerable to status effects, this removes usage of constant damage mods in favour of condition overload type mods in boss fights as well. (I do support bosses being vulnerable to statuses so it does not narrow gameplay too much)

 

I'm sure I could think of other given more time, but I think these are good reasons too. I would like to hear ofcourse if someone could come up with counter examples in which this would make gameplay worse.

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7 minutes ago, shut said:

The last thing this game needs is more multiplicative damage boosts.

Fair enough. I kind of feel that there are so many multipliers that one here or there would not make much of a difference and if there is potential benefits id dont see it as too much of a complication.

9 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I don't think this is necessary ,

Condition mods are fine where they are and so are base damage mods , 

And merciless is also only one arcane , there are others that can be used with more effectiveness with base damage mods.

I am personally of the opinion that the game needs fewer multipliers , not more.

Well currently only primary arcane not giving damage is one givin reload and unfortunately one can rarely justify adding reload in place of damage. I guess more balanced arcane selection might fix this somewhat, but there is also possibility that they would make some other mods unusable.

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19 minutes ago, taiiat said:

giving "every Mod" two versions of the same Stat is adding a lot of complexity to figure out what you're doing with your Mods.

eh.

I was not thinking of doing two versions of same stat for every stat. Just mods with base damage. I m not suggesting one solution to fix all the imbalance but rather little changes here little there.

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18 minutes ago, Juthoth said:

Fair enough. I kind of feel that there are so many multipliers that one here or there would not make much of a difference and if there is potential benefits id dont see it as too much of a complication.

Quite the opposite, actually! Introducing more and more multipliers will never have any kind of "diminishing returns" effect, since they all just, well... multiply each other. The 1.3x damage will straight-up multiply your final damage by 1.3x, regardless of how many other obscenely strong multipliers are active. (Assuming that it isn't made additive to bane mods or something.)

One of WF's biggest problems right now is the sheer number of different multiplicative damage sources that we have. A coordinated team (and even some solo builds) can combine them together in all sorts of wacky ways to easily break the integer-overflow barrier, which makes it fundamentally impossible for DE to design bosses without having to resort to invulnerability phases / damage attenuation / etc.. Like, a boss with 999999999 health and 999999999 armor would be impossible to beat for most casual players, and people will easily find methods of consistently oneshotting it anyways. In the end, nobody has a fun and engaging boss fight experience. (I'm kind of going off on a tangent here, but my point is that we need fewer multipliers, not more.)

 

I actually quite like the current situation with +Damage mods (Serration, Primary Merciless, etc)-- the Primary/Secondary arcanes introduce enough damage that base damage mods are no longer a strict requirement, but the base damage mods still give a substantial enough boost to be viable on many builds. This is the ideal situation IMO-- they're still worth using, but without being mandatory. Which means more build variety!

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8 minutes ago, Juthoth said:

Well currently only primary arcane not giving damage is one givin reload and unfortunately one can rarely justify adding reload in place of damage. I guess more balanced arcane selection might fix this somewhat, but there is also possibility that they would make some other mods unusable.

I probably missed the part where you were specifically talking only of primary arcanes,

Why primary only ? Why not others , do you not want the changes to apply to secondary mods ?

Besides , There are many more beyond damage mods , but if we keep having these multipliers those will never be used either.

As to your other points.

1)Your preference to be lazy is not sufficient reason according to me for this change.

2)Rivens should not be used for reference cause of how random and fickle they can be.

3)And DE is making bosses "attenuated" so things that ramp up damage over time will actually be less effective compared to upfront damage options.

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21 minutes ago, shut said:

Quite the opposite, actually! Introducing more and more multipliers will never have any kind of "diminishing returns" effect, since they all just, well... multiply each other. The 1.3x damage will straight-up multiply your final damage by 1.3x, regardless of how many other obscenely strong multipliers are active. (Assuming that it isn't made additive to bane mods or something.)

One of WF's biggest problems right now is the sheer number of different multiplicative damage sources that we have. A coordinated team (and even some solo builds) can combine them together in all sorts of wacky ways to easily break the integer-overflow barrier, which makes it fundamentally impossible for DE to design bosses without having to resort to invulnerability phases / damage attenuation / etc.. Like, a boss with 999999999 health and 999999999 armor would be impossible to beat for most casual players, and people will easily find methods of consistently oneshotting it anyways. In the end, nobody has a fun and engaging boss fight experience. (I'm kind of going off on a tangent here, but my point is that we need fewer multipliers, not more.)

 

I actually quite like the current situation with +Damage mods (Serration, Primary Merciless, etc)-- the Primary/Secondary arcanes introduce enough damage that base damage mods are no longer a strict requirement, but the base damage mods still give a substantial enough boost to be viable on many builds. This is the ideal situation IMO-- they're still worth using, but without being mandatory. Which means more build variety!

You got it wrong. Mods would not multiply each other. Say adding blaze and point blank together would be additive in each damage category. Say blaze is 45 and 15 and point blank 65 and 25 Then it would be 110%*1,4=154% for example. 

 

Well I think base damage mods feel underwhelming, (I agree better than mandatory though)

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25 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I probably missed the part where you were specifically talking only of primary arcanes,

Why primary only ? Why not others , do you not want the changes to apply to secondary mods ?

Besides , There are many more beyond damage mods , but if we keep having these multipliers those will never be used either.

As to your other points.

1)Your preference to be lazy is not sufficient reason according to me for this change.

2)Rivens should not be used for reference cause of how random and fickle they can be.

3)And DE is making bosses "attenuated" so things that ramp up damage over time will actually be less effective compared to upfront damage options.

Primary was to point out problem since having critical arcane for secondary lessens the problem imo.

 

Well points were meant partially light hearted and personal like your answers. They were just examples and. Your third point is a good point though. (with exeption where you can ramp up from mobs around the boss).

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Well responses have been overwgelmingly negative so I might ask about another matter connected to this. 

 

Multishot is and has always been stronger than base damage. Why did DE aimed at remowing base damage mods from mandatory list but multishot is more mandatory than ever?

 

Should they do something similar to multishot or make multishot consume more ammo?

 

Just throwing ideas in the air hoping that it might lead to system improving in one way or the other.

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37 minutes ago, Juthoth said:

Well responses have been overwgelmingly negative so I might ask about another matter connected to this. 

Don't be down , i am sure there will be players that agree with you as well. It's still early in the discussion.

37 minutes ago, Juthoth said:

Multishot is and has always been stronger than base damage. Why did DE aimed at remowing base damage mods from mandatory list but multishot is more mandatory than ever?

 

Should they do something similar to multishot or make multishot consume more ammo?

 

Just throwing ideas in the air hoping that it might lead to system improving in one way or the other.

Some time ago i had proposed changes to many mod options including multishot and elemental (the two most mandatory of modding choices for damage) 

For multishot i had recommended it use ammo from your max ammo pool and elemental damage replace part of your base damage or be a seperate instance of multishot , to make it more balanced.

But the discussion highlighted how ammo is already plentiful so it wouldn't matter and players would just use fire rate mods if it took ammo from current magazine.

Now that ammo is actually a decent balancing point , it could be a good counter.

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11 minutes ago, Juthoth said:

You got it wrong. Mods would not multiply each other. Say adding blaze and point blank together would be additive in each damage category. Say blaze is 45 and 15 and point blank 65 and 25 Then it would be 110%*1,4=154% for example. 

I mean... isn't that literally a final damage multiplier that simply gets higher and higher with more base damage mods? (e.g. in your example, the +15% and +25% components from Blaze and Point Blank)

Like, I get that the base values of each mod will be ~the same or slightly nerfed on their own, and this multiplicative effect would be restricted behind adding multiple base damage sources... but the end effect of this is simply more multiplicative damage, which is the opposite of what the game should be doing. (As others said, it's also needlessly complex for a game with an already-complex damage system.)

 

1 minute ago, Juthoth said:

Multishot is and has always been stronger than base damage. Why did DE aimed at remowing base damage mods from mandatory list but multishot is more mandatory than ever?

 

Should they do something similar to multishot or make multishot consume more ammo?

 

Just throwing ideas in the air hoping that it might lead to system improving in one way or the other.

Also, yeah, I agree 100%. Not with the consuming-more-ammo thing specifically, but that multishot should always have had some downside associated with it so that it's not a strict requirement on virtually every build (including utility weapons).

I've always thought it would be fun for multishot to introduce more projectiles, but at the cost of increased spread-- so, essentially, giving weapons a more shotgun-like role. Or giving a multiplicative final damage reduction that's almost enough to offset the number of projectiles, which means more consistent damage and more procs. (And rebalancing enemy scaling around this, of course.) Not the most well-thought-out ideas, but I'm also just spitballing here.

 

At this point, though, I honestly wouldn't be mad if multishot stayed the way it currently is. The game is already balanced around the fact that everyone has multishot on their weapons; changing how it works would cause a huge ruckus in the community only for a bit more flexibility on one mod slot.

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11 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Don't be down , i am sure there will be players that agree with you as well. It's still 3arlyvun the discussion.

Some time ago i had proposed changes to many mod options including multishot and elemental (the two most mandatory of modding choices for damage) 

For multishot i had recommended it use ammo from your max ammo pool and elemental damage replace part of your base damage or be a seperate instance of multishot , to make it more balanced.

But the discussion highlighted how ammo is already plentiful so it wouldn't matter and players would just use fire rate mods if it took ammo from current magazine.

Now that ammo is actually a decent balancing point , it could be a good counter.

Thanks for the encouragement, but I m not takin it too heavily. I m not that invested in this suggestion. Just throwing ideas in the air. :)

 

Sounds good to me. Making multishot essentially multiplicative fire rate instead of multiplicative damage would already be improvement. Maybe balance shotgun ammo based on how much innate multishot they have etc.

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12 minutes ago, shut said:

I mean... isn't that literally a final damage multiplier that simply gets higher and higher with more base damage mods? (e.g. in your example, the +15% and +25% components from Blaze and Point Blank)

Like, I get that the base values of each mod will be ~the same or slightly nerfed on their own, and this multiplicative effect would be restricted behind adding multiple base damage sources... but the end effect of this is simply more multiplicative damage, which is the opposite of what the game should be doing. (As others said, it's also needlessly complex for a game with an already-complex damage system.)

 

Also, yeah, I agree 100%. Not with the consuming-more-ammo thing specifically, but that multishot should always have had some downside associated with it so that it's not a strict requirement on virtually every build (including utility weapons).

I've always thought it would be fun for multishot to introduce more projectiles, but at the cost of increased spread-- so, essentially, giving weapons a more shotgun-like role. Or giving a multiplicative final damage reduction that's almost enough to offset the number of projectiles, which means more consistent damage and more procs. (And rebalancing enemy scaling around this, of course.) Not the most well-thought-out ideas, but I'm also just spitballing here.

 

At this point, though, I honestly wouldn't be mad if multishot stayed the way it currently is. The game is already balanced around the fact that everyone has multishot on their weapons; changing how it works would cause a huge ruckus in the community only for a bit more flexibility on one mod slot.

Yes it would but you would be using multiple modslots to get same effect as faction mod in terms of dps.

 

Well I think multishot is bigger problem than damage was at its worst since there is nothing comparable to it in effectiveness whether you want damage, status instanses or in particular damage attenuation in newer bosses.

 

Argument that it would cause a ruckus and has been like that for so long is something that you could have made same argument against making base damage mods non mandatory if not useless. Besides you really have two multishot mods (especially with pistols) or even three if you count possible riven.

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I see serration and other flat damage mods as a form of progression, new players get flat damage mods very early and which will carry them through the starchart with ease, galvanized mods come from arbitrations which is next step after completing the star chart. They can use galvanized mods in places where serration falls off (steel path).

The system is fine imo

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1 hour ago, Juthoth said:

Should they do something similar to multishot or make multishot consume more ammo?

I always thought multishot should come with reduced ammo economy or reduced accuracy.  Both of these have some major issues though.  Reduced accuracy would have little effect on some weapons, no effect at all on others, and be a positive on a few.   Ammo economy would have wildly variable effects too.  I gotta say though, it's pretty fun to think about big ammo overhauls  right now!

Both possibilities would be copying RoF's downsides to a degree too, which isn't that interesting. 

Another option: tie multishot to damage penalties.  Example: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Shrapnel_Rounds.   Balance it in such a way that multi is the obvious choice for status application, but a tougher decision otherwise.   But it makes my head hurt imagining the the fallout from that and DE trying to get it right.

It really makes little sense to me to do something like that in isolation.  Might as well go Damage 3.0 and really do some good.  Or screw things up completely.  Why settle for half measures?

44 minutes ago, Juthoth said:

Argument that it would cause a ruckus and has been like that for so long is something that you could have made same argument against making base damage mods non mandatory if not useless.

That freaky fixation with base damage mods is showing again,  lol.  But...   freak nightcap GIF by Pop TV

The thing is, DE didn't nerf them directly.  They nerfed them indirectly by introducing even more and better sources of base damage.  So the only ruckus came from a few people concerned about balance and some players who'd invested heavily in damage rivens and saw the value crash.

 

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4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I always thought multishot should come with reduced ammo economy or reduced accuracy.  Both of these have some major issues though.  Reduced accuracy would have little effect on some weapons, no effect at all on others, and be a positive on a few.   Ammo economy would have wildly variable effects too.  I gotta say though, it's pretty fun to think about big ammo overhauls  right now!

Both possibilities would be copying RoF's downsides to a degree too, which isn't that interesting. 

Another option: tie multishot to damage penalties.  Example: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Shrapnel_Rounds.   Balance it in such a way that multi is the obvious choice for status application, but a tougher decision otherwise.   But it makes my head hurt imagining the the fallout from that and DE trying to get it right.

It really makes little sense to me to do something like that in isolation.  Might as well go Damage 3.0 and really do some good.  Or screw things up completely.  Why settle for half measures?

That freaky fixation with base damage mods is showing again,  lol.  But...   freak nightcap GIF by Pop TV

The thing is, DE didn't nerf them directly.  They nerfed them indirectly by introducing even more and better sources of base damage.  So the only ruckus came from a few people concerned about balance and some players who'd invested heavily in damage rivens and saw the value crash.

 

 

What? :D I guess this is it when people respond without reading the context. :D

 

First part of the post was reasonable consideration of aspects in my opinion, but the latter? Where did I state that they should be nerfed "directly". I was talking initially:

5 hours ago, Juthoth said:

Should they do something similar to multishot or make multishot consume more ammo?

I asked if they would be given similar treatmen or ammo consumption and then to call refering to the base damage changes in the thread that talks about it in the title freaky fixation? :crylaugh: 

 

You getting so passive-agressive about something like that makes it seem like this is really touchy subject to you for some reason. Talk about freaky obsession. 

 

I said that to oppose changing multishot (for example adding arcanes that give you +200 multishot from kills or adding increased ammo consumption) based on it causing ruckus is akin to making same argument you could have made about indirect nerfs to base damage. It was response to this:

5 hours ago, shut said:

At this point, though, I honestly wouldn't be mad if multishot stayed the way it currently is. The game is already balanced around the fact that everyone has multishot on their weapons; changing how it works would cause a huge ruckus in the community only for a bit more flexibility on one mod slot.

 

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5 hours ago, Juthoth said:

First part of the post was reasonable consideration of aspects in my opinion, but the latter? Where did I state that they should be nerfed "directly". I was talking initially:

Ah, gotcha.   You did say "or" though.

5 hours ago, Juthoth said:

I said that to oppose changing multishot (for example adding arcanes that give you +200 multishot from kills or adding increased ammo consumption)

Yeah, that makes things more clear.  Although you said "or" again, which is confusing.  Wouldn't it have to be both?  Can you explain further?  Would it be something like adding ammo consumption to multi mods but not to the new multi arcanes? 

 

6 hours ago, Juthoth said:

You getting so passive-agressive about something like that makes it seem like this is really touchy subject to you for some reason. Talk about freaky obsession. 

I was only intending to be playful, not passive aggressive or rude. :/  I apologize for offending you.

 

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