AoE is nerfed, but Aimbot gets a pass?

[nslay]

31 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

For one, it requires aiming as the reticle shrinks more as the longer the ability is activated

Yeah, that's why you tap 4 again and get the giant reticle. Yes, Mesa is very easy to play. Mesa is very easy to nuke with.

32 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

it has LoS checking and it locks Mesa in place

This isn't really as much of a limitation that you think it is. And there is really no meaningful limitation in her 4 at all... not even the reticle is much of a limitation. Because through mod magic, focus schools, arcanes, etc... base costs and drain costs are largely negligible. So you can just recast 4 and just continue on nuking like nothing happened. You should not be moving the camera around with the tiny reticle.

36 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Mesa's PM is hard to be automated and on top of that isn't particularly low effort compared to other nuke warframes.

I can't understand how you can seriously write this. You must be trolling or something. Mesa is very low effort. Stand on the Defense target and tap 4 periodically and hold LMB. Are you kidding me? This is "effort" to you? OK, I guess you might have to get off the Defense target and pick up some energy orbs...

34 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

In low level mission it's not ultra effective because of how the ability works

Once upon a time, she was used in a lot of low level missions (e.g. Void Fissures) to dominate in kills.

[Marvelous_A]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

Yeah, that's why you tap 4 again and get the giant reticle. Yes, Mesa is very easy to play. Mesa is very easy to nuke with.

This isn't really as much of a limitation that you think it is. And there is really no meaningful limitation in her 4 at all... not even the reticle is much of a limitation. Because through mod magic, focus schools, arcanes, etc... base costs and drain costs are largely negligible. So you can just recast 4 and just continue on nuking like nothing happened. You should not be moving the camera around with the tiny reticle.

I can't understand how you can seriously write this. You must be trolling or something. Mesa is very low effort. Stand on the Defense target and tap 4 periodically and hold LMB. Are you kidding me? This is "effort" to you? OK, I guess you might have to get off the Defense target and pick up some energy orbs...

Once upon a time, she was used in a lot of low level missions (e.g. Void Fissures) to dominate in kills.

A lot of warframe nukes are just press and forget or just spam 4. PM is not one of them. In the same low level mission, PM will use more time to clear the game, simple fact. Toggling on-off and turning camera objectively cost you time compared to like Mag's Crush and Volt's Discharge and none of them needs LoS.

 

Which make me wonder why is it about Mesa and not like every other AoE warframes, or just you need a scapegoat to justify the AoE nerf whine.

[nslay]

33 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

A lot of warframe nukes are just press and forget or just spam 4. PM is not one of them. In the same low level mission, PM will use more time to clear the game, simple fact. Toggling on-off and turning camera objectively cost you time compared to like Mag's Crush and Volt's Discharge and none of them needs LoS.

I don't care if you think Mag's Crush or Volt's Discharge is somehow easier to use or if it's the difference between 1 button or 2 buttons. This ability is "low effort" and has absolutely no meaningful limitations. If you have the right build, you don't have to worry about energy and therefore the reticle (which is supposed to limit you). When the reticle gets small, you recast it. It doesn't cost very much to use.

Peacemaker is a bad, boring and OP ability that steals kills in pubs and it has always has been this way. Whatever limitations you think the ability has exists entirely on paper alone. In practice, this thing is crazy powerful that surpasses the AoE meta with no real limitations. All enemies visible in a 50m radius? Yeah, take that Xoris with your 12m explosion radius! You keep talking about LoS... it doesn't really matter that much in practice my dude! Do you put punch-through mods on weapons just to shoot enemies through walls? No? I didn't think so. You probably don't really care about shooting enemies through walls. And to counter your, "Oh, but I can shoot through other enemies with punch through", Mesa can pick off a line of enemies one-by-one just as easily with her crazy high fire rate! This is a non-issue.

EDIT: Xoris with Heavy Attack and Volatile Quick Return is apparently 12m... and while I think Xoris is not the greatest Glaive, it has an impressive explosion radius.

[Marvelous_A]

Just now, nslay said:

I don't care if you think Mag's Crush or Volt's Discharge is somehow easier to use or if it's the difference between 1 button or 2 buttons. This ability is "low effort" and has absolutely no meaningful limitations. If you have the right build, you don't have to worry about energy and therefore the reticle (which is supposed to limit you). When the reticle gets small, you recast it. It doesn't cost very much to use.

Peacemaker is a bad, boring and OP ability that steals kills in pubs and it has always has been this way. Whatever limitations you think the ability has exists entirely on paper alone. In practice, this thing is crazy powerful that surpasses the AoE meta with no real limitations. All enemies visible in a 50m radius? Yeah, take that Xoris with your 11m explosion radius! You keep talking about LoS... it doesn't really matter that much in practice my dude! Do you put punch-through mods on weapons just to shoot enemies through walls? No? I didn't think so. You probably don't really care about shooting enemies through walls. And to counter your, "Oh, but I can shoot through other enemies with punch through", Mesa can pick off a line of enemies one-by-one just as easily with her crazy high fire rate! This is a non-issue.

To be honest I know this thread isn't about Mesa. So I don't think people's thoughts about Mesa matters for this thread at all.

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Marvelous_A said:

To be honest I know this thread isn't about Mesa. So I don't think people's thoughts about Mesa matters for this thread at all.

When people write "aimbot", I think Mesa. But there are probably others. Thermal Sunder was mentioned earlier and this isn't even technically an "aimbot".

[-Moctezuma-]

11 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

To be honest I know this thread isn't about Mesa. So I don't think people's thoughts about Mesa matters for this thread at all.

I made this thread refering to mesa specifically

[AzureScion]

Mesa's peacemaker is pretty low effort but 

 

Low effort ≠ no effort

 

Which is what Wuzarr meta was.

[-Moctezuma-]

2 minutes ago, AzureScion said:

Which is what Wuzarr meta was.

Still similar and does not invalidate our points

[XaoGarrent]

On 2022-09-21 at 11:02 PM, cute_moth.npc said:

In most of the video gaming world, skills like Mesmer Skin, Vortex, Peacemaker, Strangledome, Warframes like Octavia and Saryn, concepts like operators being able to become invulnerable for a minute at a time and many other Warframe concepts would result in the intern / developer that implemented the idea having to find a new job immediately lol. They're basically skills that are literally unable to work within the framework of a balanced, curated game and destroy any semblance of a developer having a handle on game design.

But this is WARFRAAAAME ^^

Interestingly, most of the gaming industry is also producing garbage.

I wonder if the fact most developers today produce slow, boring, masochistic garbage is related to the absolute dumpsterfire that is gaming in the current year, HMMMM.

I play Warframe specifically because it's not some "balanced" game by Blizzard, or just as bad, one of the many, many shallow games by small studios, such as DRG, that is rapidly spinning around the drain of a toilet bowl. (Seriously, the last thing a game with the mechanical depth of a petri dish needs is a thinly veiled skinner box)

I would appreciate if loud minorities would stop encouraging game developers to nerf or destroy everything that makes their game fun, thank you.

[cute_moth.npc]

5 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Interestingly, most of the gaming industry is also producing garbage.

I wonder if the fact most developers today produce slow, boring, masochistic garbage is related to the absolute dumpsterfire that is gaming in the current year, HMMMM.

I play Warframe specifically because it's not some "balanced" game by Blizzard, or just as bad, one of the many, many shallow games by small studios, such as DRG, that is rapidly spinning around the drain of a toilet bowl. (Seriously, the last thing a game with the mechanical depth of a petri dish needs is a thinly veiled skinner box)

I would appreciate if loud minorities would stop encouraging game developers to nerf or destroy everything that makes their game fun, thank you.

Why can't I even make a satirical post that's literally celebrating warframe without having several people that are so rabid for one game that they half read it and then have to go out of the way to ignore its context and try and rope me into a salty argument? ^^;

I mean you do you! I'm going to go to sleep now though lol. Not all other games are trash.

[XaoGarrent]

3 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I'm going to go to sleep now though lol. Not all other games are trash.

No, just about... 98% of them. You do you, and go play that trash. Nobody said you can't like objectively bad things. :D

[-Moctezuma-]

2 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

No, just about... 98% of them. You do you, and go play that trash. Nobody said you can't like objectively bad things. :D

[XaoGarrent]

So funnay skull gif eks dee XD

I was going to just link Pennywise, but I couldn't find a good image that wasn't obnoxiously hueg, so...

[AzureScion]

36 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

Still similar and does not invalidate our points

Nope theyre different. Like I said before Mesa does not allow the player to make sandwich while playing a mission. Wukong did. 

They're trying to get rid of automation not low effort-ness. At least not now.

[XaoGarrent]

1 minute ago, AzureScion said:

Nope theyre different. Like I said before Mesa does not allow the player to make sandwich while playing a mission. Wukong did. 

They're trying to get rid of automation not low effort-ness. At least not now.

Maybe not make a sandwich, but I have literally played Mesa with one hand, while eating a sandwich.

[AzureScion]

4 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Maybe not make a sandwich, but I have literally played Mesa with one hand, while eating a sandwich.

I have also played Gauss with one hand. Playing with one hand still glues you to the computer. Pressing buttons, clicking mouse, aiming, etc.

 

Wukong only needed one button to press at the start of the mission and you are free to do whatever you please for the remainder of the mission until you then cloud to finish when the mission is over.

 

If we're talking about AoE being disruptive, it still kinda is. But it requires more effort now.

[XaoGarrent]

11 minutes ago, AzureScion said:

I have also played Gauss with one hand. Playing with one hand still glues you to the computer. Pressing buttons, clicking mouse, aiming, etc.

 

Wukong only needed one button to press at the start of the mission and you are free to do whatever you please for the remainder of the mission until you then cloud to finish when the mission is over.

 

If we're talking about AoE being disruptive, it still kinda is. But it requires more effort now.

You're trying to establish some subjective, arbitrary distinction between the cheese that's already been nerfed, and the cheese you like, in hopes said distinction (of no consequence) gets memed enough that the devs are afraid to touch your favorite toys.

Being the cynical but equitable person I am, it's my belief that if one person's fun gets kneecapped, everyone else should suffer with them. Yay equity!

So I'm going to rain on this parade, and spell the reality out here: On a scale of 1 to 10, in terms of effort, Wukong is a 1 and Mesa is a 1.100005.

Neither of them are special. If one of them can trivialize a certain piece of content, not only can the other, but so can half the other frames in the game, with maybe fractionally more effort.

Warframe is a gear game. That's just how things work. Progression and success is not like Devil May Cry, or Mega Man, where progression is shallow, and raw skill and practice decides outcomes. It's more like a JRPG. It rewards time and theory crafting, not skill and effort. What you bring to the fight and when you use it matters more than the effort you put in, with some exceptions.

The abject fact of the matter is that making changes and balancing around interactivity has never made sense (for the reasons they claim, anyway), because the game's overall design simply isn't built like that, and Warframe would have to be completely reworked from the ground up for such a design philosophy to even make sense.

At which point, it wont even be the same game.

You want proof of this?

Ask yourself why they designed Kahl's content the way they did.

[AzureScion]

18 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

You're trying to establish some subjective, arbitrary distinction between the cheese that's already been nerfed, and the cheese you like, in hopes said distinction (of no consequence) gets memed enough that the devs are afraid to touch your favorite toys.

Being the cynical but equitable person I am, it's my belief that if one person's fun gets kneecapped, everyone else should suffer with them. Yay equity!

So I'm going to rain on this parade, and spell the reality out here: On a scale of 1 to 10, in terms of effort, Wukong is a 1 and Mesa is a 1.100005.

Neither of them are special. If one of them can trivialize a certain piece of content, not only can the other, but so can half the other frames in the game, with maybe fractionally more effort.

Warframe is a gear game. That's just how things work. Progression and success is not like Devil May Cry, or Mega Man, where progression is shallow, and raw skill and practice decides outcomes. It's more like a JRPG. It rewards time and theory crafting, not skill and effort. What you bring to the fight and when you use it matters more than the effort you put in, with some exceptions.

The abject fact of the matter is that making changes and balancing around interactivity has never made sense (for the reasons they claim, anyway), because the game's overall design simply isn't built like that, and Warframe would have to be completely reworked from the ground up for such a design philosophy to even make sense.

At which point, it wont even be the same game.

You want proof of this?

Ask yourself why they designed Kahl's content the way they did.

Doesn't matter which frames I like or I don't, I'm just stating the fact and the reasoning why they did this change. It's not subjective at all, it's the truth. I prefer active frames like Gauss, Mag, or Nova because I prefer playing the game and using my frames as a supplement over my guns vs ability spamming or automated gameplay. I never said I liked Mesa or hated Wukong. In fact design wise I love both.

Oh and your scaling is way off. If Mesa was a 1.10000005 like you said, Wukong is a 0.00000000001. That's how braindead he is. 

And yes, every frame can clear any contents easily at this stage of the game. If we're talking about Mesa, there's also Saryn, Ember, Volt discharge, Xaku, etc which also require very low effort but at least they still require them. One effort is better than none at all. 

Warframe may not reward skill and effort, but it still requires them to a degree. Every game is. A sane team of developers would want you to actively engage in their game and interact with their elements. Wukong used to disable that. It is indeed a gears game, which is why they want you to try out hundreds of other gears (also why they made it so that you only require one copy of mod to be applicable to all your other gears) instead of sticking to the same frame and same weapon. Hence his high usage.

Making changes around interactivity has always been the goal of every game developers. Well at least other than those auto-play mobile RPGs. It always makes sense. Who knows, maybe nerfing Wukong and limiting ammo were the first step? Or second perhaps, with eximus now being stronger and all. They're taking things slowly. Like you said, Warframe needs a complete overhaul. That overhaul cannot happen in just one night. They need time to think things through and us as players need time to adjust to the changes. If Warframe suddenly becomes a completely different game then the backlash would've been ten times more severe than what we have right now.

Who knows, they might hit Mesa, Saryn, Ember and the likes in the future too. But they gotta take one step at a time. Watch how the changes affect the gameplay. But right now, the obvious outlier is already fixed.

Kahl mission is just a fun little side activity and was never intended to be the main focus of the game. Same goes for the upcoming Duviri. Maybe they're making prototypes and concepts for the upcoming soulframe I don't know. But they're experimenting on how to make more difficult challenges because the community has been crying about it for months but making a truly difficult fight is, frankly, IMPOSSIBLE with the current power that we have. So they take away that power. 

[Ethorin]

...You do Realize Mesa is post like, three nerfs aimed at stopping her from being Wukong.

 

She used to press 4 and leave it, then she pressed 4 and spun forever, then she pressed 4 and had the reticule, and Draco stopped being a defense and also stopped being the highest level defense in the game.

 

All of that was aimed at stopping Mesa's old botted press 4 to win style back when Exalted weapons used stat sticks and Peacemaker was flat out the best nuke in the game period end of story.

 

Mesa has been nerfed, and it worked, and the game has gotten lots stronger in the meantime to boot.

[XaoGarrent]

 You'd make a good lawyer, you know that?

3 minutes ago, AzureScion said:

Doesn't matter which frames I like or I don't, I'm just stating the fact and the reasoning why they did this change. It's not subjective at all, it's the truth.

You are plainly and obviously operating from a subjective standpoint, and this is entirely visible in the fact that what you're arguing is so tenuous as to be a misrepresentation of the truth so great as to completely divorce your position from abject reality.

There is simply no objective reasoning that can lead to your conclusions, without at the very least, starting with a subjective standard.

You're actually arguing that minute fractional differences make such a difference as to justify nerfing one frame over another. You're doing this because even you know that you're grasping at straws. Oh, and notice I said on a scale of 1 to 10. Not 0 to 10. Try to make sure you have your grade school math sorted before trying to correct someone. It's not clever.

Even if we accept the idea that there's even a ten percent difference in effort between Wukong and Mesa, which there isn't, that's still minuscule. You do realize the OP posted a gif demonstrating how wrong you are, right? Or I guess you consider holding down M1 and flipping your camera in circles a massive leap over Wukong? You do realize that nobody actually plays Wukong the way you suggest, because outside of a few niche cases, it doesn't actually work, correct?

This is what I mean about you operating from a place of subjectivity, I'm almost certain that if you recorded the APM of the average Wukong player, in practice, in real world, Steel Path conditions, it would be higher than Mesa just on account of Mesa's 4 locking the player in one place and forcing them not to move.

If Wukong deserves to get hit with a nerf stick, Mesa deserves to be jackhammered into the ground. That wouldn't be so good for player retention though, would it? As it turns out, some people play and like Mesa, interactivity be damned.

You can argue that Warframe requires skill and effort insomuch as you can argue any game does. I know for a fact you wouldn't be arguing that a cookie clicker requires skill and effort, but placing your cursor over a button and clicking it constantly is roughly slightly more than the amount of effort that Mesa takes during her, 4 oddly enough.

You know, now that I'm actually sitting here thinking about how things actually pan out in practice, no, Mesa is not more interactive than Wukong. She's less, because her kit doesn't even have a nerf stick you can choose to run around and hit people with. Her four instead roots you in place. That is NON INTERACTIVE BY DESIGN. Not even as a byproduct of some other design decision, but they literally designed Mesa's 4 to root her in place and completely negate the game's entire parkour system while active.

15 minutes ago, AzureScion said:

Making changes around interactivity has always been the goal of every game developers.

Goals are WIDELY varying between developers, and interactivity is not one commonly focused on, but rather a byproduct of other, much more tangible design goals. I'd go as far as to say games that focus on difficult inputs fort he sake of being more "interactive" or "skillful" are usually awkward and obnoxious to play. Which is, as an aside, why Platinum's spectacle fighters walk all over Capcom's. Capcom makes the player do more to achieve less, with no regard to what design and experience sacrifices that causes.

I digress... The point is that frames like Gauss work not because the goal was interactivity, but because the game play experience they were trying to design is sound. The go fast frame goes fast, in a game very much designed to reward and encourage the player to go fast. Who would have thought having synergistic design has good outcomes!?

On the same note, other designs may be equally sound, and require a fraction of the interactivity. Octavia is "as interactive as a foundry timer" and yet some people just want to run around playing music and shoot their gun, and that's exactly what she's designed to do.

...And FYI, I play Gauss too, so I can speak from experience that even Gauss isn't some bastion of interactive gameplay. Almost nothing in this game even vaguely compares to the complexity and effort required of the player in something like a fighting game, spectacle fighter, or maybe something like Monster Hunter. You are grasping at straws, and not even good ones. Most people don't want to play a game that takes as much effort as a fighting game. There are reasons that genre is so niche: Interactivity is stressful for many, many people.

I think I've made my point here. Your argument, whether you want to admit it, basically boils down to "I like this, and not that, and the things I don't like should be treated differently."

[(PSN)max141064]

2 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I play Warframe specifically because it's not some "balanced" game by Blizzard, or just as bad, one of the many, many shallow games by small studios, such as DRG, that is rapidly spinning around the drain of a toilet bowl. (Seriously, the last thing a game with the mechanical depth of a petri dish needs is a thinly veiled skinner box)

I would appreciate if loud minorities would stop encouraging game developers to nerf or destroy everything that makes their game fun, thank you.

8 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I think I've made my point here. Your argument, whether you want to admit it, basically boils down to "I like this, and not that, and the things I don't like should be treated differently."

 

[XaoGarrent]

29 minutes ago, Ethorin said:

...You do Realize Mesa is post like, three nerfs aimed at stopping her from being Wukong.

29 minutes ago, Ethorin said:

Mesa has been nerfed, and it worked, and the game has gotten lots stronger in the meantime to boot.

You do realize your first point is refuted by your closing statement, right?

When you say the game got stronger, that includes ways to buff the player through the roof.

In fact, one of the biggest issues with Wukong's 4 is that it can't benefit from certain types of mods that regular melee weapons can. This is a problem that Mesa's 4, perhaps ironically, suffers from much less.

(Fun Fact: I don't have a Wukong preset in the arsenal, as I played melee wukong. So I deleted it when they trashed his crit Iron Staff build indirectly)

Wukong is a frame made less interactive by his 4 being mediocre.

Mesa is a frame made less interactive by her 4 existing.

Nerfing frames that aren't "interactive" isn't going to make them more interactive. It's just going to make people stop playing them. ...Though, honestly, I suspect that's DE's real goal here anyway given what they did to the Kuva Zarr.

[stormy505]

On 2022-09-21 at 8:07 PM, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

why not remove Saryn or any other AoE ability? they can kill enemies through walls. /s

 

i really dislike the "Nerf this" "Remove that" mindset that this community seems to have.

 

 

It's still insane to me that people thought that the nerf complaints would stop at aoe weapons, people will find a way to hate whatever the meta is, all that nerfing accomplishes is the meta changes to something else people dislike and dev time is wasted.

[XaoGarrent]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

 

I'd appreciate if you didn't attempt to tear me down to your level of irrationality.

Fun isn't subjective. Nothing is subjective. Subjectivity is what you operate on when you don't know enough about reality to operate off good information.

I know it makes you feel good to think that a game you enjoy is magic, and if you know enough about this subject to really understand it, I bet it gives you a nice warm fuzzy feeling that we live in a wonderful non-deterministic universe where anything is possible... But no, everything is objectively quantifiable. It is fully possible for a developer to trash the fun of their game by making changes that sounded good based off some subjective thing they or you like or value.

This typically happens when developers and players take no effort to try and at least understand, and more importantly respect, what people like... Even if it's not entirely clear why they like it... Which in turn happens because they operate from a position that it's all just irrational to begin with, and don't even bother with objectivity as a result. "Fun is subjective" is a great way to screw up a perfectly good design, especially one that came about by accident rather than intention.

Anything that goes wrong and has a bad outcome was in fact perfectly predictable. Anything that goes right, the same. It can be difficult to pick out what exactly caused success, but it can be done. Just because you don't have the information or understanding to do so, doesn't mean it's "subjective." This attitude people have that the mere mention of "fun" means we're currently living in the land of pixie dust and unicorn mayonnaise is precisely what robs people of even 20/20 hindsight, let alone the ability to make good predictions.

Screwing up and then thinking the screwup is fine is... Well, it's a special kind of bad. There's a reason this meme exists:

It's actually very relevant here, because a lot of the busted stuff in the game comes about because something that was fine interacts really badly with some very much not fine design issues or power creep, that goes ignored at a time when it was much easier to correct.

The problems with Wukong, and launchers, and Mesa, and many, many other things are much deeper than simply swinging around a nerf hammer can fix. They will go unaddressed while the things that people actually enjoy go and get thrown into a dumpster, precisely because "fun is subjective."

[Corvid]

16 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Fun isn't subjective.

If there are things that I find fun that you don't, and vice versa, then it by definition is subjective, since its presence and absence is determined by the perception of subjects (IE: People). If there were no subjects, there would be no fun.

If we accept your premise that fun is somehow an objective trait of a given activity, what happens when we disagree that said activity is fun? Under this logic, only one of us can be correct (at most, as there is a possibility that we're both wrong), so how would you go about determining who is right?

Measuring dopamine levels (or other such neurotransmitters) wouldn't work, since they'd be different between the two of us even though we'd be doing the same thing.

Appealing to the majority opinion is just bringing in more viewpoints, not actually proving the veracity of either of the existing ones.

Since neither of the above methodologies work, which one would you use?