Grineer that steal your weapons should actually use them

[Shatter_The_Sun]

With the introduction to Kahl, we know Grineer can use our weapons. Is it too far fetched to think those that steal them can use them?

Pressing X on the enemy that took the weapon would make you perform a parazon kill.

[Pizzarugi]

And then a Drahk Master steals your Kuva Zarr and proceeds to wipe your entire team in one shot.

[quxier]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

And then a Drahk Master steals your Kuva Zarr and proceeds to wipe your entire team in one shot.

Or better... stunlock everyone while you use Shield gates. Profit.

[Jivy]

Yeah, no

[-ODIN-SwoleChef]

6 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

And then a Drahk Master steals your Kuva Zarr and proceeds to wipe your entire team in one shot.

that would be funny as hell imo

[Shatter_The_Sun]

12 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

And then a Drahk Master steals your Kuva Zarr and proceeds to wipe your entire team in one shot.

I would love this. Would make fighting them more interesting.

 

6 minutes ago, Jivy said:

Yeah, no

Any reason why?

 

10 minutes ago, quxier said:

Or better... stunlock everyone while you use Shield gates. Profit.

This.

[Jivy]

1 minute ago, Shatter_The_Sun said:

Any reason why?

It would be dumb if your teammate just dies cause your weapon got stolen + it could be used to grief as well 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 4 minutos, Jivy dijo:

It would be dumb if your teammate just dies cause your weapon got stolen + it could be used to grief as well 

That's right mate.

[fo3nixz]

oh let him take a weapon thats modded for radiation..  err no thanks

[(XBOX)Helverin]

'member originial fights against Voidrig mechs? Or Bonewidow? Or Malice? Or a Rad Sister? Or a Trollmember getting a Rad Proc in the Void pulling a Bramma and yelling "DOdGe!!!!!"?

While none of these lovely scenarios actually steals the players weapon they demonstrate perfectly what would happen if enemies could use players modded weapons. Things like Bullet attractor or damage reflection are already bad enough but some mad grineer aimbot with... it doesnt matter. Even a fully modded mk-1 braton would end in a painful death. 

[Shatter_The_Sun]

53 minutes ago, (XBOX)Helverin said:

'member originial fights against Voidrig mechs? Or Bonewidow? Or Malice? Or a Rad Sister? Or a Trollmember getting a Rad Proc in the Void pulling a Bramma and yelling "DOdGe!!!!!"?

While none of these lovely scenarios actually steals the players weapon they demonstrate perfectly what would happen if enemies could use players modded weapons. Things like Bullet attractor or damage reflection are already bad enough but some mad grineer aimbot with... it doesnt matter. Even a fully modded mk-1 braton would end in a painful death. 

And I would love every second of it. 

[Learicorn]

On 2022-09-23 at 11:08 AM, Pizzarugi said:

And then a Drahk Master steals your Kuva Zarr and proceeds to wipe your entire team in one shot.

That's just making OP's point stronger tbh

Like that would be genuinely hilarious, i'd love it

[(PSN)gadgaurd]

I just imagined some random Grineer stealing my Incarnon form Laetum and just going to town on my squad, it'd be hilarious. Of course I'd brush it off Escanor style and just kill him and his friends with my Drifter but that would definitely shake up the mission for a few seconds.

[Pizzarugi]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)gadgaurd said:

I just imagined some random Grineer stealing my Incarnon form Laetum and just going to town on my squad, it'd be hilarious. Of course I'd brush it off Escanor style and just kill him and his friends with my Drifter but that would definitely shake up the mission for a few seconds.

Drahk Master after they steal your Phenmor

[DeadVoid118]

Firstly, Grineer don't use our weapons, we use Grineer (and Corpus) weapons. Every weapon Kahl has used is a Grineer weapon, excluding his stun grenade thingy which is custom built for Kahl and the Exergis, a Corpus weapon.

Secondly, enemies being able to use your weapons when they steal them sounds like a terrible idea for many reasons. For one, some weapons would need custom AI to even function, not every weapon is a 'fire directly at tenno' weapon. For two, either they massively nerf the damage, or this is just all the issues of self-damage with extra steps. Player health and enemy health are not comparable, and that means the damage of your gun is drastically different from the damage of their guns. If they massively nerf the damage, it will effectively be what it is now, just some enemies creating some noise before being sliced in half. If they don't nerf the damage, it would be terrible for fun. Sure, watching your weapon get stolen and murder your entire squad might be funny the first time if you're that kind of trollish person. It gets very old very quickly, in much the same way enemy bosses with stupidly-long invincibility phases get old, only worse.

[Jivy]

5 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

Firstly, Grineer don't use our weapons

Incorrect, in the tutorial some of them use the Lato

[DeadVoid118]

1 hour ago, Jivy said:

Incorrect, in the tutorial some of them use the Lato

True, there are Lancers that wield the Lato in one specific part of the game specially designed to on-board new players. I don't consider exceptions to make the rule.

[Grommile]

On 2022-09-23 at 2:52 PM, Shatter_The_Sun said:

Is it too far fetched to think those that steal them can use them?

So you want me to go back to glaive spam for Grineer missions?

[Shatter_The_Sun]

On 2022-09-25 at 8:51 PM, DeadVoid118 said:

Firstly, Grineer don't use our weapons, we use Grineer (and Corpus) weapons. Every weapon Kahl has used is a Grineer weapon, excluding his stun grenade thingy which is custom built for Kahl and the Exergis, a Corpus weapon.

Secondly, enemies being able to use your weapons when they steal them sounds like a terrible idea for many reasons. For one, some weapons would need custom AI to even function, not every weapon is a 'fire directly at tenno' weapon. For two, either they massively nerf the damage, or this is just all the issues of self-damage with extra steps. Player health and enemy health are not comparable, and that means the damage of your gun is drastically different from the damage of their guns. If they massively nerf the damage, it will effectively be what it is now, just some enemies creating some noise before being sliced in half. If they don't nerf the damage, it would be terrible for fun. Sure, watching your weapon get stolen and murder your entire squad might be funny the first time if you're that kind of trollish person. It gets very old very quickly, in much the same way enemy bosses with stupidly-long invincibility phases get old, only worse.

As for the AI. Most if not all guns function by shooting first and foremost. Things like the simulor and detonation weapons are the exception, not the rule. Both still function if you press the "Shoot" button and im entirely fine with that. No one said they had to be smart enough to know how to use the weapon. It would also make sense lore wise and given these weapons a bit of a "buff" due to them not really being usable when stolen.

As for your player vs enemy health point. I would be inclined to believe you if this was anything like self-damage. Self-damage was more of an issue when shield gating wasn't a thing and even then, it would still be a non-issue. We have 101 ways and then some of dealing with end game damage. Yes, those slash procs will one shot your ass. I am entirely fine with also giving the grineer your weapon with unleveled mods to make it more "fair".

I also dont think comparing invul phases of bosses to grineers stealing your weapon is a great comparison... 

[Mazifet]

everyone gangsta until the grineer steal your exalted weapon

[DeadVoid118]

3 hours ago, Shatter_The_Sun said:

As for the AI. Most if not all guns function by shooting first and foremost. Things like the simulor and detonation weapons are the exception, not the rule. Both still function if you press the "Shoot" button and im entirely fine with that. No one said they had to be smart enough to know how to use the weapon. It would also make sense lore wise and given these weapons a bit of a "buff" due to them not really being usable when stolen.

This isn't how games work. Yes, weapons fire when yout shoot. Some of them also have dropoff, bullet speed, and punchthrough. Still more have ammo limitations and reload speed as a drawback. Ignoring all these things blatantly makes hitscan weapons and weapons that trade ammo-related things away for a boost in power worse because a random Grineer can steal it and go to town. And yes, weapons that require detonation would be 'better'. But this isn't an actual buff to usability, instead it's the fact a random enemy in an absolute moshpit of enemies can take your weapon and start using it, which is just nonsensical. You know what the counter to such a thing is? Kill things faster. We don't need more incentive for that.

3 hours ago, Shatter_The_Sun said:

As for your player vs enemy health point. I would be inclined to believe you if this was anything like self-damage. Self-damage was more of an issue when shield gating wasn't a thing and even then, it would still be a non-issue. We have 101 ways and then some of dealing with end game damage. Yes, those slash procs will one shot your ass. I am entirely fine with also giving the grineer your weapon with unleveled mods to make it more "fair".

Forcing players to rely on shield-gating is a terrible idea at best. EHP mods exist, and not everyone wants to mess around with super-active shield-gating plays which are finicky at best. If you rely on health to survive, you almost certainly won't have a shield-gate to survive a blast from your own weapon, let alone the fact the enemy doesn't have to stop shooting once your shield-gate is over.

You being fine with that kind of situation only shows your preferences, not what's good for the game. Players should be allowed to survive with EHP, it's what it's there for.

3 hours ago, Shatter_The_Sun said:

I also dont think comparing invul phases of bosses to grineers stealing your weapon is a great comparison... 

You are correct, I think invulnerability phases are much more sensible. Both are still trash, though.

[(XBOX)THE NTT]

On 2022-09-25 at 4:00 PM, (PSN)gadgaurd said:

I just imagined some random Grineer stealing my Incarnon form Laetum and just going to town on my squad, it'd be hilarious. Of course I'd brush it off Escanor style and just kill him and his friends with my Drifter but that would definitely shake up the mission for a few seconds.

Well i'd presume they'd have to get it to incarnon form themselves, and since they have stormtrooper levels of accuracy, the chance of them doing that before you kill them is not so high...

[(XBOX)THE NTT]

On 2022-09-25 at 9:51 PM, DeadVoid118 said:

Firstly, Grineer don't use our weapons

They don't use our weapons because their superiors didn't give them our weapons and/or they have no way of crafting them on their own.  If they can steal them, that'd fix that problem.

[Shatter_The_Sun]

1 hour ago, DeadVoid118 said:

This isn't how games work. Yes, weapons fire when yout shoot. Some of them also have dropoff, bullet speed, and punchthrough. Still more have ammo limitations and reload speed as a drawback. Ignoring all these things blatantly makes hitscan weapons and weapons that trade ammo-related things away for a boost in power worse because a random Grineer can steal it and go to town. And yes, weapons that require detonation would be 'better'. But this isn't an actual buff to usability, instead it's the fact a random enemy in an absolute moshpit of enemies can take your weapon and start using it, which is just nonsensical. You know what the counter to such a thing is? Kill things faster. We don't need more incentive for that.

Forcing players to rely on shield-gating is a terrible idea at best. EHP mods exist, and not everyone wants to mess around with super-active shield-gating plays which are finicky at best. If you rely on health to survive, you almost certainly won't have a shield-gate to survive a blast from your own weapon, let alone the fact the enemy doesn't have to stop shooting once your shield-gate is over.

You being fine with that kind of situation only shows your preferences, not what's good for the game. Players should be allowed to survive with EHP, it's what it's there for.

You are correct, I think invulnerability phases are much more sensible. Both are still trash, though.

Yes, I understand there are things such as fall off, punchthrough, ect. This is already there in the code. They have access to all these values in realtime. It doesnt take much to feed in data and then give an AI a script to adjust accordingly. Not to mention, we can literally just do what I said before which is let them shoot it like they would shoot other guns. For lore reasons, it works fine.

I never said it was a buff to usability but I should have made myself more clear, so my apologies. Now what I neglected to add to my original post is that they should have a different way of stealing weapons that isn't immediate like it is now. They did it with the, "Hook Units" where you now have a sound and visual queue on when you get hooked and you have several ways to approach it now. You could in all honesty, make it the same. I like the idea of a tractor beam of sorts that is a bright red line that represents LoS between you and the enemy that is trying to steal your weapon. After a pause, you have to break LoS or it takes your weapon. Add in my previous suggestion of allowing your parazon to kill them immediately and boom. You have the foundation of a potential mechanic that gives you a chance before completely #*!%ing you over.

I agree that forcing players to rely on SG is terrible. It was only a suggestion to the myriad of ways to survive in this game. There has to be a line where it is the player's fault for dying. We have so many ways to avoid dying now that if the player isnt able to find that solution then they need to do more learning.

Funnily enough, DE, in their most recent Prime Time, are discussing bringing back self-damage which I think is fine as I never really saw an issue with it.

 

[DeadVoid118]

4 hours ago, Shatter_The_Sun said:

Yes, I understand there are things such as fall off, punchthrough, ect. This is already there in the code. They have access to all these values in realtime. It doesnt take much to feed in data and then give an AI a script to adjust accordingly. Not to mention, we can literally just do what I said before which is let them shoot it like they would shoot other guns. For lore reasons, it works fine.

It actually does take quite a bit. Every single calculation slows down the game. Multiply that by 50 units, and you get a lot of lag. It's why unit AI is often so simple and non-reactive, reactions are taxing on the computer. It's not particularly hard to program but is extremely hard to keep fast.

Letting them shoot it like they shoot other guns defeats the purpose. Now you just have a gimmicky enemy that doesn't actually do anything unless you're wielding the wrong weapon, in which case it destroys you and your whole team.

4 hours ago, Shatter_The_Sun said:

I agree that forcing players to rely on SG is terrible. It was only a suggestion to the myriad of ways to survive in this game. There has to be a line where it is the player's fault for dying. We have so many ways to avoid dying now that if the player isnt able to find that solution then they need to do more learning.

I disagree. We really don't have that many ways to avoid dying when we exclude Frame-specific abilities. In Steel Path, Adaptation + Health/Armor isn't going to be enough if you're not also killing very rapidly/constantly moving. The 'many' ways we have to survive are largely Frame-specific and I think it's extremely unfair to ask a player to play Revenant just because they don't like shield-gating. I also think it unfair to ask players to build for helminthed-in Null Star, which requires both an augment slot and ability duration to get to a good level of survivability. While we do have a focus school that gives invulnerability, it's practically the same thing as shield-gating in terms of gameplay, you have to constantly pay attention to it and constantly keep it on.

I think this would be solved if we had more Adaptation-like mods (pure damage reduction) that could stack with Adaptation, or more Helmnith abilities that give pure damage reduction (and aren't finicky in how they give this DR as Null Star and Eclipse are). However, as is, survivability remains an issue if you're not using shield-gating or specific frames. I do think it's an issue of balance, not the player, when you can spend 4 mod slots on trying to survive with EHP using the best mods for EHP and still fail pretty badly at it.

4 hours ago, Shatter_The_Sun said:

Funnily enough, DE, in their most recent Prime Time, are discussing bringing back self-damage which I think is fine as I never really saw an issue with it.

I am aware, and I hate it. Self-damage should never return, I remember well how nobody ever used launcher weapons and how they all sucked because aiming slightly wrong killed. The punishment for missing a headshot is less damage dealt. The punishment for missing an explosive shot with self-damage is death. These things are not comparable punishments in the slightest.