Issue with archon flow

[Kegnor97]

So, we got archon mods, most of them are great imo even though intensify is super inconsistent at the moment on which abilities it does and does not work, however archon flow seems to fall behind the others, I mean, the rest of the mods can trigger somewhat reliably but flow is the only one with a chance to be triggered, and on top of that it has a cool down, so the game is offering us a more draining version of primed flow for an effect that is bearly activated, this is specially notable with aoe abilities that can give you more energy orbs frim normal kills than the ones given by this mod, I think it would help if the cool down was reduced/eliminated or the chace of activating was higher

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

17 minutes ago, Kegnor97 said:

 bearly 

"Barely" but yes this is by far the weakest Archon Mod.

Changing it to 10% only or cooldown only would be better.

Or keep the restriction and make it on kill with a cold status afflicted 

[Neihel]

idk why DE went ultra safe with flow when these 3 mods exist without cooldown but now they are too stingy with an end game mod when there's better mods for energy

some people may question the usefulness of the 3rd mod but you can give dethcube an AOE weapon that should hit 10 targets or more

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

If you want some use for this mod, it does work on Exalted weapons that deal cold damage. You have to drop Viral, but it can be a good source of energy if you were already running Primed Flow.

[Leqesai]

22 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

If you want some use for this mod, it does work on Exalted weapons that deal cold damage. You have to drop Viral, but it can be a good source of energy if you were already running Primed Flow.

Dropping Viral in favor of an energy orb every 10s?

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

 

DING DING DING We have a winner! Meme of the Day!  Now if you REALLY want to impress your friends at one of Baro's Parties...What is the name of the Character that Pee Wee is laughing at?  (Hint: Same name of a country in Europe)

While the Jeopardy theme is playing and we wait for the Daily Double to be answered...

I am in agreement with the OP, Archon Flow is basically trash and pointless considering it costs more Capacity points then Primed Flow and it's a chance for ONE Energy orb to drop from Powers that do Cold Damage, that's not reliable enough for me to squeeze it into a build of my Frost.  Why a cool down anyways, it's not like the energy orbs are going to be raining down on me if there wasn't a cool down.  Someone was half asleep at the brainstorming meeting when they thought this Mod was Amazing and so worth it!

The Archon Stretch Mod does work well with Gyre, and I'm sure Volt and others too, but haven't tried it out on them yet.

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

Bonus Round Question: What was the name of Pee Wee's dog in the movie Pee Wee's Big Adventure? (The Meme above is from the same movie)

[Leqesai]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

DING DING DING We have a winner! Meme of the Day!  Now if you REALLY want to impress your friends at one of Baro's Parties...What is the name of the Character that Pee Wee is laughing at?  (Hint: Same name of a country in Europe)

While the Jeopardy theme is playing and we wait for the Daily Double to be answered...

I am in agreement with the OP, Archon Flow is basically trash and pointless considering it costs more Capacity points then Primed Flow and it's a chance for ONE Energy orb to drop from Powers that do Cold Damage, that's not reliable enough for me to squeeze it into a build of my Frost.  Why a cool down anyways, it's not like the energy orbs are going to be raining down on me if there wasn't a cool down.  Someone was half asleep at the brainstorming meeting when they thought this Mod was Amazing and so worth it!

The Archon Stretch Mod does work well with Gyre, and I'm sure Volt and others too, but haven't tried it out on them yet.

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

Bonus Round Question: What was the name of Pee Wee's dog in the movie Pee Wee's Big Adventure? (The Meme above is from the same movie)

Francis and Speck off the top of my head...

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Francis and Speck off the top of my head...

Yes and Yes! OMG My new BFF! Lol   I am a long time fan of Pee Wee and collector of his crap...errr... I mean Memorabilia and even have a original Talking Pee Wee Doll ( you pulled a string to make him speak) and complete old skool VHS Tape set of his entire series.  Glad to know I'm not the only person in these forums receiving AARP invitations in the mail, much to my chagrin.  

On the topic of Archon Mods,  it didn't occur to me until recently aquiring the Archon Vitality,  I can't use the Mod because it would replace Umbra Vitality which means I lose the set bonus on my Lavos and without doing the Math and testing in the Simulacrum, I'm not sure the "double-dipping" of Heat damage is worth the loss in bonus.  Have you (or anyone else) tested the results of Archon Vitality and it's a game changer and worth the loss of the Umbra Set Bonus?  During the Archon Hunt I find it very handy to have the extra bonus against the Sentients and don't know if all the Archon Vitality Mod hype is worth it?  Clearly you are a wise man with excellent taste, so any morsel of advice you could throw my way would be most appreciated! 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[Kegnor97]

En 27/9/2022 a las 16:25, (XBOX)sinamanthediva dijo:

Yes and Yes! OMG My new BFF! Lol   I am a long time fan of Pee Wee and collector of his crap...errr... I mean Memorabilia and even have a original Talking Pee Wee Doll ( you pulled a string to make him speak) and complete old skool VHS Tape set of his entire series.  Glad to know I'm not the only person in these forums receiving AARP invitations in the mail, much to my chagrin.  

On the topic of Archon Mods,  it didn't occur to me until recently aquiring the Archon Vitality,  I can't use the Mod because it would replace Umbra Vitality which means I lose the set bonus on my Lavos and without doing the Math and testing in the Simulacrum, I'm not sure the "double-dipping" of Heat damage is worth the loss in bonus.  Have you (or anyone else) tested the results of Archon Vitality and it's a game changer and worth the loss of the Umbra Set Bonus?  During the Archon Hunt I find it very handy to have the extra bonus against the Sentients and don't know if all the Archon Vitality Mod hype is worth it?  Clearly you are a wise man with excellent taste, so any morsel of advice you could throw my way would be most appreciated! 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

I do have an archon build on lavos, but I did not get make an umbra build for him before so I can't compare, other than that I use it in frames that I would not have put an umbra build anyways (like protea), other than that mrwarframeguy made a meme build with it using mag's armor strip and nova's neutron star augment

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I honestly find all of the archon mods to be fairly underwhelming.  The legitimate use cases for most of them are extremely limited.

 

The frames these actually work with, combined with cost to use them, they could make these mods 10x stronger and it wouldn't break the game.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Honestly? I find that there's some specific uses for this, just like there are for the other ones. And in those cases it's very useful once you get to the point where consistent energy gain is most important; missions with high level and high enemy density.

The enemy density is the tipping point, because the RNG for regular Orbs still doesn't give us enough to run a frame without other forms of Energy gain, but having an bonus 10% on all enemies in the area? Makes it way more consistent. Specifically because to this day nobody has worked out what the actual Orb Drop Chance is on anything other than Sniper and Eximus Units. Eximus is 100%, Sniper units is 10.85%. So making every enemy in range have a 10% is surprisingly effective.

So enemy density and the function of being able to apply this to all enemies in range is the key, right?

For example, the frames that can use it for its intended purpose innately are Frost and Gauss. Both of them are great for coating the entire area in cold procs, and both have the tech for 100% armour strip to enable consistent killing right up through the levels.

And a frame that can actually use it, despite the kit not appearing to, is Zephyr. While the Tornado ability description says that it inherits the damage type of the highest damage you deal, it specifically also transfers your weapon's Damage, Crit Chance and Status Effects to all enemies it hits when you shoot the funnels. Surprisingly this damage transfer actually counts as Tornado having dealt the damage, so any Status you proc from that damage counts as the Ability causing the Status.

Taking a Primer, such as the Epitaph (with its innate guaranteed Cold procs on the AoE) can spread that Cold proc through the Ability to enemies for the Archon mod priming. Considering the Cold on that is innate, and isn't affected by the damage type you put on, then being able to keep a Viral primer that also does the Cold procs is very useful in this case, right? Then you explode the enemies with the regular Tornado damage/crit scaling, and you've got more Energy in the same way the other two frames can get it.

My point is that these Archon mods don't always appear to be all that useful, outside of the immediate ones like Archon Vitality, but on the frames they work with? They work well.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

the frames that can use it for its intended purpose innately are Frost and Gauss.

Gauss doesn't have the damage to really back it up. His hard hitting damage is Blast or Heat, not Cold.
Frost only if you can chain together explosions I guess, but those are dependent on Avalanche being the one killing. Globe does true damage so no cheating there.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And a frame that can actually use it, despite the kit not appearing to, is Zephyr. While the Tornado ability description says that it inherits the damage type of the highest damage you deal, it specifically also transfers your weapon's Damage, Crit Chance and Status Effects to all enemies it hits when you shoot the funnels. Surprisingly this damage transfer actually counts as Tornado having dealt the damage, so any Status you proc from that damage counts as the Ability causing the Status.

It doesn't consider the Tornado as having done the damage/procs. Transferred damage is still counted as the weapon doing it. The Tornadoes themselves need do the damage type/proc to count for the Archon mods, making them fine (Archon Stretch works well) to outright bad (Archon Flow, have fun getting Tornadoes to kill by themselves).

Archon Continuity lands pretty squarely on the bad side, as Tornadoes innate status chance/application isn't great. Archon Vitality is poor as well since the base damage of Tornadoes is extremely low. Archon Flow gets the worst side of the deal, as it needs kills and and an "odd" damage type. Cold damage is a rarity to mod for, and weapons that have it innately have it swallowed by superior damage types typically.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Taking a Primer, such as the Epitaph (with its innate guaranteed Cold procs on the AoE) can spread that Cold proc through the Ability to enemies for the Archon mod priming. Considering the Cold on that is innate, and isn't affected by the damage type you put on, then being able to keep a Viral primer that also does the Cold procs is very useful in this case, right?

Comments like this really confuse me. If you tried it out, you'd quickly realize that Tornadoes inherit only damage types present on the weapon that hits the Tornado, not from procs. Hitting Tornadoes with an unmodded Epitaph's AoE makes them deal only Blast damage, not Cold.

It's doubly confusing since you are a self-professed Zephyr lover.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Gauss doesn't have the damage to really back it up.

True, but he can use it consistently. You don't need to have one-shot damage, you just have to kill them with the ability ^^

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

It doesn't consider the Tornado as having done the damage/procs. Transferred damage is still counted as the weapon doing it. The Tornadoes themselves need do the damage type/proc to count for the Archon mods, making them fine (Archon Stretch works well) to outright bad (Archon Flow, have fun getting Tornadoes to kill by themselves).

I have literally tested it doing so. The ability counts for triggering weapon arcanes, yes, but the transferred damage also triggers the mods. I've tried this with weapons that are modded with Viral/Electric, where the Viral is higher damage so the Tornado doesn't gain Electric damage, but the Status procs from the hit. This triggers Archon Stretch.

Same with going Magnetic/Toxin, so the Tornado stays Magnetic, but the Toxin triggers a Corrosive status from Archon Continuity.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Comments like this really confuse me.

Tornado's 2021 update allowed Status to be transferred through Tornado as well as Crit. The raw Damage is spread to everything present, which dilutes it down a bit, but the Status that your weapons proc is transferred un-diluted, so it has the same status chance per enemy as hitting them directly.

The only downside to Tornado these days is that it can't proc Head Shots for other mechanics ^^

[Kegnor97]

hace 4 horas, Birdframe_Prime dijo:

For example, the frames that can use it for its intended purpose innately are Frost and Gauss. Both of them are great for coating the entire area in cold procs

As I said, with aoe abilities you get more energy orbs from regular kills than from the mod because of the cooldown

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

38 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

True, but he can use it consistently. You don't need to have one-shot damage, you just have to kill them with the ability

Once you've started his loop, it becomes more and more difficult to deal meaningful cold damage. Cold Sunder is still extremely weak, so you'd end up with a Catch 22; You need to spam Cold Sunder to trigger Archon Flow to get more energy, but you wouldn't need to spend the energy to spam just Cold Sunder if you weren't trying to trigger Archon Flow.

7 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I've tried this with weapons that are modded with Viral/Electric, where the Viral is higher damage so the Tornado doesn't gain Electric damage, but the Status procs from the hit. This triggers Archon Stretch.

What's likely happening in your testing is that you are shooting a a group of tornados. Shooting a Tornado transfers damage and procs electric on an enemy, which hits a 2nd "untainted" Tornado, which changes to electric damage, which then damages an enemy, triggering Archon Stretch. If you use a single Tornado, it becomes immediately obvious that transferred electric damage by itself doesn't trigger Archon Stretch. Have a video.

If you have sufficient enemy density, you can override the initial damage type shot into Tornadoes to electric via all the electric procs pinging the Tornadoes for more damage than what your weapon shot in (not hard to do). But that's not the transferred damage proccing it, it's the damage type of the Tornadoes themselves.

19 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Same with going Magnetic/Toxin, so the Tornado stays Magnetic, but the Toxin triggers a Corrosive status from Archon Continuity.

Sure. Got a video? I do. It would beg to differ.

Plenty of Toxin procs, but 0 Corrosive procs, how strange.

I welcome evidence that shows what I have said to be incorrect.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

*snip

Nice video, thanks for the 411.  So my take away from all your "evidence" is what precisely? I'm going to assume you are in agreement that Archon Flow is not really worth using in a build.  The results are lack-luster and there are better and/or more efficient and productive methods to obtain Energy. Is this a correct analysis of your opinion of Archon Flow?

Thank you for taking the time to explain in detail the funky quirks of Zephyr and the not so useful Archon Flow.

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

40 minutes ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

So my take away from all your "evidence" is what precisely?

Take away from my tangent above is that Archon mods (especially Archon Flow) don’t syngerize particularly well with Zephyr’s Tornadoes (with the exception of Archon Stretch).

42 minutes ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

The results are lack-luster and there are better and/or more efficient and productive methods to obtain Energy. Is this a correct analysis of your opinion of Archon Flow?

Yes, more or less.