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It's 2022 and the default form of trading with other players is still an IRC chatroom with no search function.


Anpoca

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Trading in this game is a pain: We can either try to use the trade chat, which is a rapidly scrolling chat box with no indexing or search functions that feels like being in the middle of a 1920s stock exchange, or we can go stand around in Maroo's bazaar for hours. Neither is a good way of conducting business. In fact, trading ingame is so awful that warframe.market emerged to facilitate item exchanges between players. However, it's still clunky (send a message -> go to their dojo -> use the sub-par trading interface) and still struggles with non-fungible goods like rivens and liches, since it can't enforce an end date to their auctions. 

As a player, it feels like the game has accrued a series of mechanics meant to encourage player trading (primes, syndicates, rivens) and yet, the trading experience is painful. I don't think anyone finds the trade chat useful, fun or charming. 

WoW had an auction house in two thousand and four. Why can't we? It would even be a good reason for players to visit relays! Even if it were to be used exclusively for riven trading, it would be a vast improvement over what we currently have. 

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I've been thinking about it for a long time. To me it appears it could be 1 of the 3 things (or any of them in combination): laziness, greedyness or fear of responsibility.

1st is self-explanatory. Designing a convenient trading UI that's bug free, easy to understand, to use and can't be abused is hard.

2nd is also self-explanatory as easier trading will greatly decrease the pains for farming and grinding and will reduce the store-bought platinum demand.

But the 3rd requires in-depth explanation:
Improving the trading experience would greatly increase trading activity across the game. Right now the "person to person" form of trading acts as a massive gatekeep on the entire thing. Having to work through Trading Chat, Warframe Market and having to talk to people, even if only for business only, is a special type of a chore that not every person is ready for. Hell, i can only commit to it once every couple of months when i just get down bad for that plat.
Removing this human element gatekeeping will escalate trading across the entire thing. Trades will be happening faster and there will be waaaay more of them due to convenience. The entire market will undergo rapid restructuring of demand and supply, and especially prices (mostly a rapid drop across the board due to inflation of people who want to quickly dump their junk).

But this will also open the gate for more malicious activities such as price gouging, price manipulation, stock sniping (opportunistic traders seeking unfortunate auction listings where price is lacking a zero or two and "sniping" them only to re-sell them at the real price) and so on.
At this point i genuinely i believe that its somehow the latter DE is most afraid of. Their insistence on human contact seems to be just to make sure that people take trading very seriously and not as a automated stock-market shtick, which greatly reduces the number of unfortunate "trading incidents" and what not.

So for all intents and purposes... Literally the only good reason to introduce an auction house right now is player convenience. That's the only thing that will be improved. But everything else will take a hit and it just doesn't look like a good investment of development time for all the obvious reasons.

 

P.S. Wouldn't be surprised if someone at DE had a very unfortunate auction experience in some MMORPG or another in the past, hence their insistence to not bring it here.

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1. WoW isn't warframe. Can you solo literally everything in WoW? What is their monetization model? Is there a subscription? Can you flat out buy the premium currency from a website not run by chinese gold farmers?

2. Filters will drastically lower the chat speed. Even a simple "wtb" or "wts" will separate the two and give you time to decide what exactly it is you're doing, since you're post was just ranting and exaggerating. Do you know how filters work?

3. You do not have to stand anywhere for 3 hours. You can actually play the game.. throw out a few advertisements in trade chat between tweaking your arsenal or working on fashion etc. 

4. No one is obligated to buy your overpriced or oversaturated market items. Consider researching if your item is actually worth it and adjust your price accordingly.

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hace 21 minutos, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

 

1. WoW isn't warframe. Can you solo literally everything in WoW? What is their monetization model? Is there a subscription? Can you flat out buy the premium currency from a website not run by chinese gold farmers?

This is an inane argument. You can't buy prime parts from the market. You can't buy rivens from the market. Pretty much everything that gets traded between players for plat is traded between players because it can't be bought from the market. Making those trades easier or more convenient would increase the number of players actively trading which necessitates a larger amount of plat in circulation for trading. 

hace 25 minutos, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

2. Filters will drastically lower the chat speed. Even a simple "wtb" or "wts" will separate the two and give you time to decide what exactly it is you're doing, since you're post was just ranting and exaggerating. Do you know how filters work?

Oooo, filters. How wonderful. 🙄🙄🙄. IDK about you but micromanaging a filter sheet via a clunky interface isn't what I'd consider "fun" or "easy". It's stll essentially an IRC window with no search functionality. Just being able to list what we're looking to buy / sell without having to idle at Maroo's (you know, like warframe.market works currently?) would be an improvement, but no. We have to rely upon a third party to do so.

hace 35 minutos, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

3. You do not have to stand anywhere for 3 hours. You can actually play the game.. throw out a few advertisements in trade chat between tweaking your arsenal or working on fashion etc. 

There's only so much idle fashionframe busywork to do. Having the game open on one screen while I watch a show on the other screen isn't playing. And no, going back to the game every 120 seconds to paste my wts message again before returning to my show is not playing either. 

 

hace 39 minutos, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

4. No one is obligated to buy your overpriced or oversaturated market items. Consider researching if your item is actually worth it and adjust your price accordingly.

This would be a valid point if it weren't for the "PMO" messages that won't get an answer anyway because you're selling niche stuff or non-fungibles that most people won't be interested in, like rivens for non-meta weapons. There are buyers out there looking for those items, but in all likelyhood we won't ever meet each other because I choose to spend my limited playtime in missions, or they might be in a different region, or they choose to spend their playtime not looking at trade chat. 

 

If I wanted this experience I'd be playing Space Warlord Organ Trading Simulator.

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1 hour ago, Anpoca said:

Why can't we?

Because an AH would completely obliterate Warframe's economy. Most of the traded goods in Warframe have limited demand, but infinite supply (most people only need one Khora Prime, but you can farm infinite amount of Khora Prime sets). The only thing that prevents the economy from collapsing is the fact that it's inconvenient, so a lot of people don't participate in effect limiting the supply.

You can get away with infinite supply in AH if drop chances for traded goods are either very low (i'm talking fractions of % here), or if there is a sink for those goods (crafting mats). Warframe has neither of those and therefore AH can't function in Warframe.

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hace 1 hora, Artekkor dijo:

But this will also open the gate for more malicious activities such as price gouging, price manipulation, stock sniping (opportunistic traders seeking unfortunate auction listings where price is lacking a zero or two and "sniping" them only to re-sell them at the real price) and so on.
At this point i genuinely i believe that its somehow the latter DE is most afraid of. Their insistence on human contact seems to be just to make sure that people take trading very seriously and not as a automated stock-market shtick, which greatly reduces the number of unfortunate "trading incidents" and what not.

Well, then, why add so many mechanical incentives to trading if you're going to make trading painful? Vaulted stuff, old Baro items, rivens... Syndicates specifically forbid you from getting rewards from all six of them at any given time. You HAVE to trade for certain items. Why make it so painful?

Even if DE is dead set on forcing players to meet and trade one on one, there are still plenty of ways of making the experience better. 

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hace 5 minutos, markus230 dijo:

You can get away with infinite supply in AH if drop chances for traded goods are either very low (i'm talking fractions of % here), or if there is a sink for those goods (crafting mats). Warframe has neither of those and therefore AH can't function in Warframe.

You need ducats, don't you? There's a prime part sink in the game already. There's plenty of people out there buying and selling primed garbage because they can't get enough ducats on their own. 

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7 minutes ago, Anpoca said:

This is an inane argument. You can't buy prime parts from the market. You can't buy rivens from the market. Pretty much everything that gets traded between players for plat is traded between players because it can't be bought from the market. Making those trades easier or more convenient would increase the number of players actively trading which necessitates a larger amount of plat in circulation for trading. 

Oooo, filters. How wonderful. 🙄🙄🙄. IDK about you but micromanaging a filter sheet via a clunky interface isn't what I'd consider "fun" or "easy". It's stll essentially an IRC window with no search functionality. Just being able to list what we're looking to buy / sell without having to idle at Maroo's (you know, like warframe.market works currently?) would be an improvement, but no. We have to rely upon a third party to do so.

There's only so much idle fashionframe busywork to do. Having the game open on one screen while I watch a show on the other screen isn't playing. And no, going back to the game every 120 seconds to paste my wts message again before returning to my show is not playing either. 

 

This would be a valid point if it weren't for the "PMO" messages that won't get an answer anyway because you're selling niche stuff or non-fungibles that most people won't be interested in, like rivens for non-meta weapons. There are buyers out there looking for those items, but in all likelyhood we won't ever meet each other because I choose to spend my limited playtime in missions, or they might be in a different region, or they choose to spend their playtime not looking at trade chat. 

 

If I wanted this experience I'd be playing Space Warlord Organ Trading Simulator.

You left out the part where you can farm for these items. Do you have an issue with farming for prime parts and rivens?

You don't need a "sheet" to make a filter. If it's clunky then you're new, and need to take 2 seconds to familiarize yourself with the menu. On PS5, I press triangle, then R2 to bring up the keyboard, then type "wtb" then press circle to confirm. 

If you're watching TV instead of actually playing the game then you should maybe try actually playing and farming. You're playing a farming game, after all.... Are you maxed standing with Vox Solaris? Those arcanes might get you some fast platinum. 

 

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hace 52 minutos, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

You don't need a "sheet" to make a filter. If it's clunky then you're new, and need to take 2 seconds to familiarize yourself with the menu. On PS5, I press triangle, then R2 to bring up the keyboard, then type "wtb" then press circle to confirm. 

"If an abacus is clunky then you're new, and need to take 2 seconds to familiarize yourself with the beads." Nah, man. it just so happens I'm not living in 430 b.C. I prefer a calculator and I look down upon the regressive sorts that insist that an abacus is fine in this day and age, and blame me for not being proficient in outmoded arithmetric artifacts. Besides, if you are content with just filtering out "wts" it doesn't mean the rest of the world is. I need a sheet because I might be looking to buy rivens for particular weapons while also trying to find someone that's posting buy offers for vaulted relics, all the while excluding certain keywords.

 

hace 1 hora, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

Are you maxed standing with Vox Solaris? Those arcanes might get you some fast platinum. 

Yes, I am maxed with Vox Solaris. Why do you insist on trying to frame this issue as me wanting more plat? What I want is a calculator instead of an abacus.

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1 minute ago, Anpoca said:

"If an abacus is clunky then you're new, and need to take 2 seconds to familiarize yourself with the beads." Nah, man. it just so happens I'm not living in 430 b.C. I prefer a calculator and I look down upon the regressive sorts that insist that an abacus is fine in this day and age, and blame me for not being proficient in outmoded arithmetric artifacts. Besides, if you are content with just filtering out "wts" it doesn't mean the rest of the world is. I need a sheet because I might be looking to buy rivens for particular weapons while also trying to find someone that's posting buy offers for vaulted relics, all the while excluding certain keywords.

 

Yes, I am maxed with Vox Solaris. Why do you insist on trying to frame this issue as me wanting more plat? What I want is a calculator instead of an abacus.

Sounds like you're rushing and not accepting that this is your issue alone. Take it one day at a time instead of expecting 30 transactions to happen automatically in a day.

"Wtb rivens for x y and z, 100p each." Not that hard. 

"Wts vaulted relics." Also takes 1 second.

You can even pick 1 or 2 vaulted relics and say "wts neo z1 and lith h2 relic pmo" for example. 

Keep in mind these are examples....and not word for word advice. You'll have to use your imagination and decide what you personally want to type.

Either way, no trading reworks are coming any time soon, so I suggest working with what you have while you wait. It's gonna be awhile. 

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21 hours ago, markus230 said:

Because an AH would completely obliterate Warframe's economy.

Comments like these always make me scratch my head. They show up pretty much every time trade comes up in discussion and I always have to wonder... You ARE aware that Warframe.market exists, right? Warframe already has an auction house - including actual auctions for Liches and Rivens. It's just a third-party grey market which DE can't control or police. All of the fearmongering about how awful an auction house would be for Warframe's precious economy are somewhat undercut by there actually being an auction house already.

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9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Comments like these always make me scratch my head. They show up pretty much every time trade comes up in discussion and I always have to wonder... You ARE aware that Warframe.market exists, right? Warframe already has an auction house - including actual auctions for Liches and Rivens. It's just a third-party grey market which DE can't control or police. All of the fearmongering about how awful an auction house would be for Warframe's precious economy are somewhat undercut by there actually being an auction house already.

Theres a little historic event in Warframes past called "Dark sectors". Perhaps you've heard of it? The entire mess that occured from that system displayed exactly why an AH would be a nothing but a disaster.

From DDos'ing at oppurtune server timings to cartels developing and trading real world cash aswell as the influx of toxicity in the community.

The games entire functionality was destroyed by greed of the community. Which it was justifiably removed and never even hinted at coming back.

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The fact that it's not very convenient keeps the player economy under control.
If you've ever played a game with an in-game market you'll know prices of rare and desirable things have a tendency to balloon out of control, and everything else becomes next to worthless because it becomes way too easy to buy and sell things. Just look at trove's in game market, or what happened to Gaia online. They're a train wreck. Black Desert controls this by setting a minimum and maximum cost any given item can be sold for. But Black Desert is a predatory micro-transaction hell hole, and I really wouldn't trust DE with a system like this. Last I played elder scrolls online it controls this by also making it extremely inconvenient just in a different way. By only allowing guilds to set up shops in specific locations they have to out bid each other to use, so you only have access to whatever that guild happens to be selling at that location, and can only sell if you're in one of those guilds. That system is god awful. But it's been years since I played so I dont know how it is now. but none of those 3 allow trading premium currency. Every other game that does usually taxes it so the seller gets less than what the buyer pays so every transaction is a slight loss, and I hate that system.

Warframe's managed to find a really great balance where it's worth selling common but desirable things, and rare things can be bought at a reasonable price, without siphoning platinum out of circulation with a bs trade tax. Plus there's a few easy things to obtain that sell for very worthwhile prices just because not a lot of people think to sell them, so the supply is low. If you dig into the market you can find some seriously lucrative platinum grinds not a lot of people have noticed. With an in game market anyone can just put whatever spares they have up for sale all the time and things get out of hand really fast.

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On 2022-09-26 at 2:30 PM, Artekkor said:

2nd is also self-explanatory as easier trading will greatly decrease the pains for farming and grinding and will reduce the store-bought platinum demand.

Disagree.  If the game were to actually get the improvements that players ask for (like this, and others) I would be happier and more willing to spend money.  If I was able to trade easier, and knew it wouldn't be a chore, I would be more likely to buy more things, as well as sell more things.  Being happier, and more willing to spend money, while also being encouraged by a better trading system, would most likely result in an increase in purchases from the market by several types of players.  I would have more plat, I would spend more plat, and I would be more likely to think positively about plat, than seeing it as a hinderance.  

I've spent a bunch of money on this game in the past, when I was happier with it.  I'm not on a free ride.  But I'm not spending any money with DE right now because I'm not happy with things they're doing.  So right now, if I want something from the market I have to either spend money on plat (nope.) or I have to engage with trading.  I am going to do this as little as possible, and others will be doing the same thing.  Less plat moving around, less plat getting spent in the market and being removed from the economy.  

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9 hours ago, CarrotSalad said:

Theres a little historic event in Warframes past called "Dark sectors". Perhaps you've heard of it? The entire mess that occured from that system displayed exactly why an AH would be a nothing but a disaster.

That doesn't really address my point, though. An auction house already exists. Just not in the game. You can't argue about how Warframe's economy would be destroyed by a thing which already exists.

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hace 9 horas, PollexMessier dijo:

If you've ever played a game with an in-game market you'll know prices of rare and desirable things have a tendency to balloon out of control, and everything else becomes next to worthless because it becomes way too easy to buy and sell things.

This is flat out wrong. WoW's players have an incentive to trade among each other. Eve Online's entire economy and production chain is player driven. 

 

hace 9 horas, PollexMessier dijo:

The fact that it's not very convenient keeps the player economy under control.

I've seen this repeated like a mantra time and time again but honestly I don't see why is this the case. An inconvenient trading system is a boon to those that are willing to jump through the hoops and, since they're the among the few that actually offer goods, they get to charge exorbitant prices for said goods, but this is not "keeping the economy under control", it's artificially creating oligopolies. Furthermore, warframe.market already exists. Did it "destroy the economy"? Or rather, did it set market values for common goods so you can no longer try to scam someone asking for 120p for a Rubico prime set? Is this what you're afraid of? Not being able to overcharge anymore?

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On 2022-09-26 at 2:41 PM, markus230 said:

Because an AH would completely obliterate Warframe's economy.

Have you seen the Riven economy? Market fluctuations happen on the reg' with disposition balance changes. Vaultings & Prime Resurgence play a big role in the economy as well. Even Acolyte mods were more difficult to get prior to Steel Path. DE always had a direct impact on the market. Convenient trading (oh lord, the horror) would probably cause a slight drop in prices, for a time, but the status quo would eventually return. All this panic over something that has happened time & time again is pointless.

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3 hours ago, Anpoca said:

I am. Still, saying that something is not an issue because there's a third party grey market option that fills that niche is moronic. It's a grey market. 

.... wow... so if I've got this straight, you already know and use warframe market, and are just here complaining about the in-game systems out of general spite or something?

Like bruh... warframe market has been the solution.  For years, and YEARS and YEARS. And it WORKS GOOD. Everyone uses it. Everyone who isn't a clanless noob understands it's the solution.

As long as it exists why would they bother re-creating it in-game?

Like why are you out here creating a ruckus about trade chat? Like bruh.. yeah WE KNOW! We have known! We continue to know. And we all use warframe market. Nobody cares about trade chat. It's useless and messy and inefficient to say the least. Actually, to be totally honest, they should delete trade chat entirely and just show a link to warframe market.

The problem has been solved. Been solved for a LONG time now.

 

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This again? Is it already Wednesday?

For the record, this has come up and been answered before by the Devs themselves, on stream, at least twice.

No matter how good your reasons, no matter how practical you make it, DE just do not want to have any game-integrated trading that is not 'read the chat, find the offer, load into an instance with the other player so it can be monitored by the game servers, trade directly'.

They're fine with external websites setting up helpful functions to bypass the 'reading chat' bit, but everything else is exactly as they intend it to be. Both for their own preferences and for practical anti-cheat reasons.

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6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

An auction house already exists. Just not in the game. You can't argue about how Warframe's economy would be destroyed by a thing which already exists.

In an MMO, people expect an "auction house" to be a thing where you can either bid in something akin to an actual auction and get the goods automatically when the timer expires if you placed the winning bid, or pay a "buy it now" price and get the goods immediately.

That is not the service warframe.market provides.

warframe.market removes a certain amount of accidental market friction (the friction that arises out of not being able to see prices) from Warframe, but not the essential market friction inherent in the design of Warframe's trading system (where the transaction must occur in a certain prescribed way, in a certain set of locations, with both parties on line and in attendance, and players are limited to a double-digit number of trades per day).

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4 hours ago, markus230 said:

You wanna keep beating that dead horse, go on, ignore the fact that the horse is long gone at this point, it has been completely pulverized years ago. I'm sure your posts will be the final push that will make DE add AH to the game after almost 10 years. Good luck, I'm out

It's a discussion forum. I'm here to discuss. If you don't feel like discussing the matter then that's fine. You're free to vacate the thread and not do so. Nobody would think less of you, and I mean that sincerely. You don't owe any of us your time or effort. By the same token, however, I'm free to stay and discuss if interest exists - which it evidently does. Where you lose the moral high ground is overstepping your own bounds and attempting to make me stop discussing.

It's also a pretty bad look. You've repeatedly moved the goal posts, gotten hung up on word games and definition games, continually rejected the definitions offered and now shifted topic entirely. DE will probably not add an Auction House by any definition into the game. Fair enough. There's still merit in discussing the matter. Maybe one of these days, someone will actually produce a meaningful argument for why it's a bad idea beyond "trust me bro".

Ah, well. You have a nice life.

 

11 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Trading is not supposed to be easy with a trading house. If all players can sell everything in the game, the farming nature of the game will be destroyed and no one buys platinum at the end. Go buy up your Plat boy. Support the dev teams. Stop asking an auction house that will just destroy the revenue of the game. 

I saw this post before but didn't get to address it. Could you please elaborate? Let's ignore the issue of whether "the framing nature of the game" is actually a good thing and examine this purely within the context of what generates money and good will for DE. How is easier trading and a larger volume of trades bad for either profit or PR?

No player can sell anything without another player to buy it. Plat doesn't come out of nowhere. Every bit of plat in the game exists because someone paid money to get it (well, and from the occasional giveaway). It's not the game giving you Plat when you sell. It's another player who either bought it or got it from someone else who bought it, etc. If you're selling, someone's buying and there's always real money at the end of that chain.

That's also assuming that every player is cheap - that every player would grind for items, sell those items and use that Plat if they could. This isn't the case. By and large, Platinum in the market flows in one direction. Certain players (whales, like myself) are far more likely to pay money for Plat and pay Plat for goods. Certain other players (whom my friend jokingly nicknamed "krill" for that is what whales feed on) are far more likely to grind for their items and grind for their plat, to then spend it on either more items or Plat sinks in the Market. Plat flows from money to whales, to krill, to sinks. The more transactions that happen, the more Plat whales end up buying and the more Plat gets syphoned off the system via sinks.

That's the F2P model in a nutshell. A small subset of the playerbase pay for the entire playerbase. The more avenues you give these players to spend money, the more money they'll generally spend - within reason.

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