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It's 2022 and the default form of trading with other players is still an IRC chatroom with no search function.


Anpoca

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On 2022-09-27 at 4:56 PM, Steel_Rook said:

Comments like these always make me scratch my head. They show up pretty much every time trade comes up in discussion and I always have to wonder... You ARE aware that Warframe.market exists, right? Warframe already has an auction house - including actual auctions for Liches and Rivens. It's just a third-party grey market which DE can't control or police. All of the fearmongering about how awful an auction house would be for Warframe's precious economy are somewhat undercut by there actually being an auction house already.

Warframe market isn't an in-game action house. You need to know that it exists, you need to be online to make trades, you can't sell stuff while doing a mission. It's still inconvenient.

If Warframe market = Warframe auction house, then you already have an auction house so stop asking for it.

Warframe market aids in trading, but it doesn't allow you to just dump your inventory and wait for plat to flow in. You still need to engage with other users, you still have to travel to a Dojo.

Also, you can't bot or exploit Warframe market in any way, because it doesn't allow to make trades, you still need to players to meet at the trading post.

 

On 2022-09-26 at 7:48 PM, Anpoca said:

You need ducats, don't you? There's a prime part sink in the game already. There's plenty of people out there buying and selling primed garbage because they can't get enough ducats on their own. 

And what do you do with those ducats? You mostly buy mods, skins, sometimes a weapon, all of those things you only need 1 of. People do buy Prime garbage, but that's what it is, Prime garbage, parts that go for 2 plat per piece, because you don't need that many ducats.

 

On 2022-09-28 at 1:44 PM, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

Have you seen the Riven economy? Market fluctuations happen on the reg' with disposition balance changes. Vaultings & Prime Resurgence play a big role in the economy as well. Even Acolyte mods were more difficult to get prior to Steel Path. DE always had a direct impact on the market. Convenient trading (oh lord, the horror) would probably cause a slight drop in prices, for a time, but the status quo would eventually return. All this panic over something that has happened time & time again is pointless.

None of what you've said is relevant. Rivens are only a tiny part of tradable goods in Warframe, and sure god rolls would still be valuable, because those have very low "drop" chances, so there isn't that many of them. But average Rivens would become worthless just like anything else.

And no, prices wouldn't climb back up, only god roll Rivens and Arcane Helmets would have any real value, everything else would just end up in a race to the bottom, where everything is worth 1 plat.

AH isn't a novel idea, games tried it before, and that's how it always goes. Everything that isn't either in limited supply or exceedingly rare is completely worthless.

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1 hour ago, markus230 said:

If Warframe market = Warframe auction house, then you already have an auction house so stop asking for it.

"You can work around this bit of bad game design, so stop asking for an official fix." That line of thinking doesn't work for me. Just because a thing exists doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be improved. Especially when it exists are an unsanctioned third-party service. Offer most people who ask for an Auction House to just implement Warframe Market but officially in the game and most if not all of them would be happy with it. I'm willing to bet real money on that.

Did we need a new version of Prime Vault? No, but Prime Resurgence is still better. Did we need a new version of melee? Not necessarily, but Melee 3.0 is still better. I could go on, but my point is this: "Just be happy with what you have and stop asking for anything better" is a tremendously anti-consumer stance that doesn't benefit anyone. In fact, I'd go as far as to ask you to please stop telling people to not advocate for new and improved features.

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2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

most if not all of them would be happy with it

The element of market friction that stops me using the trading system and makes me wish WF had an auction house is not "there is no official in-game price tracker".

It's "I have to be online at the same time as the person I want to buy something from/sell something to".

As long as the latter applies, I can't be bothered with the trade system.

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5 hours ago, Grommile said:

As long as the latter applies, I can't be bothered with the trade system.

Lol. I'll just leave the account online if the system only sells things when the account is online. On the other hand, as a buyer, I want to push 2 buttons rather than spend 2 to 30 minutes to buy an item at the market price. It's not eve online for you to waste my time when I can spend it on headshots.

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On 2022-09-26 at 10:47 AM, Anpoca said:

Trading in this game is a pain: We can either try to use the trade chat, which is a rapidly scrolling chat box with no indexing or search functions that feels like being in the middle of a 1920s stock exchange, or we can go stand around in Maroo's bazaar for hours. Neither is a good way of conducting business. In fact, trading ingame is so awful that warframe.market emerged to facilitate item exchanges between players. However, it's still clunky (send a message -> go to their dojo -> use the sub-par trading interface) and still struggles with non-fungible goods like rivens and liches, since it can't enforce an end date to their auctions. 

As a player, it feels like the game has accrued a series of mechanics meant to encourage player trading (primes, syndicates, rivens) and yet, the trading experience is painful. I don't think anyone finds the trade chat useful, fun or charming. 

WoW had an auction house in two thousand and four. Why can't we? It would even be a good reason for players to visit relays! Even if it were to be used exclusively for riven trading, it would be a vast improvement over what we currently have. 

Trading is not supposed to be easy with a trading house. If all players can sell everything in the game, the farming nature of the game will be destroyed and no one buys platinum at the end. Go buy up your Plat boy. Support the dev teams. Stop asking an auction house that will just destroy the revenue of the game. 

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18 hours ago, markus230 said:

None of what you've said is relevant. Rivens are only a tiny part of tradable goods in Warframe, and sure god rolls would still be valuable, because those have very low "drop" chances, so there isn't that many of them. But average Rivens would become worthless just like anything else.

Context, please. Relevance is decided by more than one person.

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16 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

"You can work around this bit of bad game design, so stop asking for an official fix." That line of thinking doesn't work for me. Just because a thing exists doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be improved. Especially when it exists are an unsanctioned third-party service. Offer most people who ask for an Auction House to just implement Warframe

Your argument was that Warframe market is an auction house, it's not. An AH wouldn't be just Warframe market but more convenient, because that's not what an AH is. You want entirely different system, at the same time you are using false equivalency to push for it. Warframe market is more of a trade chat that you can see all at once than an AH. You can't buy or sell anything through Warframe market, all you can do on there is browse offers.

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Market but officially in the game and most if not all of them would be happy with it. I'm willing to bet real money on that.

Then you'd loose your money, because when people ask for AH, they ask for AH, not for in-game Warframe market. Besides, in-game Warframe market would probably be less convenient than the website we use now, because you can have that website open anytime you want, you don't have to leave a mission to check Warframe market, you don't even have to log into Warframe.

Quote

Did we need a new version of Prime Vault? No, but Prime Resurgence is still better. Did we need a new version of melee? Not necessarily, but Melee 3.0 is still better. I could go on, but my point is this: "Just be happy with what you have and stop asking for anything better" is a tremendously anti-consumer stance that doesn't benefit anyone. In fact, I'd go as far as to ask you to please stop telling people to not advocate for new and improved features.

You know what's the difference between an AH and the things your mentioned? The things you mentioned were actually good for the game, AH would make the game worse, therefore it shouldn't exist.

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Just now, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

Context, please. Relevance is decided by more than one person.

I explained to you why your comment was irrelevant in the same piece of text that you quoted. Rivens are just a part of the economy, pointing at Rivens and saying "those are gonna do fine" changes nothing, because you are ignoring the fact that everything else will be worthless.

All the other stuff you mentioned is in unlimited supply, just time gated, so it would be just as worthless as anything else (besides god-roll Rivens and Arcane Helmets)

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1 hour ago, markus230 said:

Your argument was that Warframe market is an auction house, it's not. An AH wouldn't be just Warframe market but more convenient, because that's not what an AH is. You want entirely different system, at the same time you are using false equivalency to push for it. Warframe market is more of a trade chat that you can see all at once than an AH. You can't buy or sell anything through Warframe market, all you can do on there is browse offers.

Word to the wise - don't tell other people what they want, especially when you're not actually reading their posts very carefully. What I want is Warframe.narket in-game. Nothing more, nothing less. Warframe.market works perfectly well, except it tends to forget my account details, delete my account if I've been inactive for a long enough time, allow players to set themselves as Online when they aren't, allow players to list items that they don't have, etc. That's not the site's fault - there's only so much a third-party service can do without access to an API.

Again, you're splitting hairs. Call it an Auction House, call it a Black Market, call it an Exchange. Hell, call it Santa Claus for all I care. I'm not interested in a World of Warcraft auction house because I'm not interested in screwing around with actual auctions. I'm simply interested in an automated system which directly connects seller to buyer without having to tab out of the game and risk soft-locking myself into a permanent black screen. That's what I want.

 

1 hour ago, markus230 said:

Then you'd loose your money, because when people ask for AH, they ask for AH, not for in-game Warframe market. Besides, in-game Warframe market would probably be less convenient than the website we use now, because you can have that website open anytime you want, you don't have to leave a mission to check Warframe market, you don't even have to log into Warframe.

Citation needed. I've seen dozens if not hundreds of these discussions over the years. There have been occasional people who'll accept nothing short of trade automation, but they're fairly few. The vast majority seem pretty happy with Warframe.market, but for the issue of it being a third-party service. Yes, my claim is anecdotal. So is yours. Unless you have something to back yours up, I see no reason to consider it over mine. This very thread shows little to no sign of requests for your specific version of an Auction House.

Again - I'm willing to bet money that an in-game implementation of Warframe.market would be sufficient for the vast majority of the people otherwise asking for an "Auction House."

 

1 hour ago, markus230 said:

You know what's the difference between an AH and the things your mentioned? The things you mentioned were actually good for the game, AH would make the game worse, therefore it shouldn't exist.

Yes, you've asserted this repeatedly. What you haven't done is back that up in any way. I'm not expecting peer-reviewed research papers, obviously (though I'll accept them if you have any). A simple explanation would suffice. Connect the dots for me. How do we go from "Auction House by some definition" to "make game worse". The only hint of an argument seems to be "People won't buy Plat any more." but that itself doesn't seem founded to me.

Less friction in conducting transactions means more transactions are done. Increased demand will likely lead to increased supply, which in my experience brings stability to the market. The more traffic the market sees, the less each individual person can influence it. Increased competition tends to mean less price-gouging and lower prices across the board. There is a danger of a race to the bottom, but that should stabilise itself based on the amount of supply. So generally, lower prices and more Plat in circulation.

Does that mean that people will buy less Plat? I personally feel it's the opposite. Cheaper goods means players have more purchasing power, means players are encouraged to purchase more. Players who might have previously chosen to grind for, say, Inaros Prime on Prime Resurgence because they don't feel like dropping 250 Plat on it might be willing to buy it instead for 100-150 Plat. With the Plat saved on that transaction, players might also be more inclined to make small-value purchases. Lua lenses, perhaps, or cheap Rivens. Small-value transactions on the player market also makes it easier to justify small-value purchases on the official Market. Things like Forma, Orokin Catalysts/Reactors, slots and so on. If I'm getting everything off the player market for cheap, why not buy a few consumables, instead of grinding for them and waiting 23 hours?

This is precisely what happened to me. Since I started using Warframe.market, I've spent a frankly unjustifiable amount of money on this game - somewhere between €700 and €800. It's way, way, WAAAY too grindy to bother earning everything, but actually buying most things is pretty cheap. Plus most of those are permanent upgrades. Compare this to For Honour, where a single Emote could cost me the equivalent of €5-€10. I've spent money on that game, too, but a LOT less - because I buy a lot less from it.

It's the Steam Sale syndrome. People will spend far more money in total shopping on discount than they will buying expensive products because they perceive the value they get in return to be much higher then. Keeping prices high and the market moving is better for the game, as far as I'm concerned.

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You wanna keep beating that dead horse, go on, ignore the fact that the horse is long gone at this point, it has been completely pulverized years ago. I'm sure your posts will be the final push that will make DE add AH to the game after almost 10 years.

Good luck, I'm out

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hace 10 horas, George_PPS dijo:

Trading is not supposed to be easy with a trading house. If all players can sell everything in the game, the farming nature of the game will be destroyed and no one buys platinum at the end. Go buy up your Plat boy. Support the dev teams. Stop asking an auction house that will just destroy the revenue of the game. 

This is a wildly unsubstantiated claim that follows shaky logic. Let's break it down:

  1. I, as a generic hypothetical player, need plat to buy something from another player. Let's say it's an Augur Secrets, which costs 20p. The cost in plat with the current system is high, which means I need more of it. This means I can either spend more IRL money or I can sell stuff to other players to get those 20p. 20p, in IRL money, if I buy the smallest possible amount, 20p is ~1.12€ for me. It's not a lot of money, but... for a single mod? a single ingame item that won't significantly improve my experience and doesn't even look cool? A bit pricey, so I'm not going to spend any real money on that. Why should I, when I can just sell a couple of augment mods that I got for free from playing the game? Conclusion: The exchange rate from IRL money to stuff is disfavorable, so I won't buy it. 
  2. Let's accept the premise that facilitating trade will crash market prices. The same Augur Secrets would cost 2p, and the same syndicate mods would cost 1p. My stuff is worth less plat, but so is the stuff I want to buy. My pucharsing power remains roughly the same. I can still trade 2 syndicate mods for your Augur Secrets OR I can chech how much would that mod cost me in IRL money. eleven cents. Would I spend eleven cents on a single mod? Sure.
    1. It logically follows, then, that I, as an hypothetical player, would be more likely to whale it out and spend real money on stuff other players have so I get to skip the grind. would farm less, but that's entirely my prerrogative.  However, the stuff I'd buy doesn't magically come into existence, does it? Someone has to farm it. 

 

Furthermore, if we accept the premise that facilitating trade would crash the market, doesn't that mean that current market prices are artificially inflated due to a fabricated scarcity? What you're saying is that currently player trading is an oligopoly, where sellers get to charge higher prices because supply is artificially squished. Why are you afraid of breaking up the oligopoly? Are you afraid you won't be able to overcharge other players anymore? Is that it?

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hace 4 horas, markus230 dijo:

You wanna keep beating that dead horse, go on, ignore the fact that the horse is long gone at this point, it has been completely pulverized years ago. I'm sure your posts will be the final push that will make DE add AH to the game after almost 10 years.

Good luck, I'm out

If you know deep within your heart that DE will never do the thing you don't like, why even bother coming to the forums? We're here in the feedback section, giving feedback about something in the game that we feel needs improving. This keeps popping up time and time again despite the devs having said that they didn't want to change the system, because enough people feel strongly enough about the issue. Coming to the feedback section to say "nah mate don't bother" is not a productive thing to do. 

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4 hours ago, markus230 said:

You wanna keep beating that dead horse, go on, ignore the fact that the horse is long gone at this point, it has been completely pulverized years ago. I'm sure your posts will be the final push that will make DE add AH to the game after almost 10 years. Good luck, I'm out

It's a discussion forum. I'm here to discuss. If you don't feel like discussing the matter then that's fine. You're free to vacate the thread and not do so. Nobody would think less of you, and I mean that sincerely. You don't owe any of us your time or effort. By the same token, however, I'm free to stay and discuss if interest exists - which it evidently does. Where you lose the moral high ground is overstepping your own bounds and attempting to make me stop discussing.

It's also a pretty bad look. You've repeatedly moved the goal posts, gotten hung up on word games and definition games, continually rejected the definitions offered and now shifted topic entirely. DE will probably not add an Auction House by any definition into the game. Fair enough. There's still merit in discussing the matter. Maybe one of these days, someone will actually produce a meaningful argument for why it's a bad idea beyond "trust me bro".

Ah, well. You have a nice life.

 

11 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Trading is not supposed to be easy with a trading house. If all players can sell everything in the game, the farming nature of the game will be destroyed and no one buys platinum at the end. Go buy up your Plat boy. Support the dev teams. Stop asking an auction house that will just destroy the revenue of the game. 

I saw this post before but didn't get to address it. Could you please elaborate? Let's ignore the issue of whether "the framing nature of the game" is actually a good thing and examine this purely within the context of what generates money and good will for DE. How is easier trading and a larger volume of trades bad for either profit or PR?

No player can sell anything without another player to buy it. Plat doesn't come out of nowhere. Every bit of plat in the game exists because someone paid money to get it (well, and from the occasional giveaway). It's not the game giving you Plat when you sell. It's another player who either bought it or got it from someone else who bought it, etc. If you're selling, someone's buying and there's always real money at the end of that chain.

That's also assuming that every player is cheap - that every player would grind for items, sell those items and use that Plat if they could. This isn't the case. By and large, Platinum in the market flows in one direction. Certain players (whales, like myself) are far more likely to pay money for Plat and pay Plat for goods. Certain other players (whom my friend jokingly nicknamed "krill" for that is what whales feed on) are far more likely to grind for their items and grind for their plat, to then spend it on either more items or Plat sinks in the Market. Plat flows from money to whales, to krill, to sinks. The more transactions that happen, the more Plat whales end up buying and the more Plat gets syphoned off the system via sinks.

That's the F2P model in a nutshell. A small subset of the playerbase pay for the entire playerbase. The more avenues you give these players to spend money, the more money they'll generally spend - within reason.

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On 2022-09-28 at 7:52 AM, Steel_Rook said:

That doesn't really address my point, though. An auction house already exists. Just not in the game. You can't argue about how Warframe's economy would be destroyed by a thing which already exists.

This is honestly a better point than the one I made, and also reinforces my point.  I do 90% of my trading through the market site.  It's so much better than trade chat.  It not only has not destroyed the economy, but it has (like I said it would.) increased how much I trade.  I got probably close to 10 messages yesterday, and have already had 3 today from people wanting to buy stuff and I've been online for like an hour and a half.  And I don't have much plat.  Because the plat I make usually ends up out of circulation because I buy cosmetics and boosters with it.  People like me do what the system requires in order to work in DE's favor:  take plat out of circulation through the game's market.

If there wasn't a cap on trades, and items could be listed and then sold automatically through an auction house, I would probably list more items, including some that I don't list now because they aren't worth enough plat for me to take the time to make the trade.  That's more plat getting taken out of circulation.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

This is honestly a better point than the one I made, and also reinforces my point.  I do 90% of my trading through the market site.  It's so much better than trade chat.  It not only has not destroyed the economy, but it has (like I said it would.) increased how much I trade.  

The problem is that  thread, Warframe Market cannot destroy the economy. WM forms it. Without this site, there are no market prices, because people cannot have a normal analysis. To know how much you need to sell the thing, you must write what you want to buy this thing to find out how much it is cost. This is a full ass.

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