Self Damage: My Thoughts

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

So in the most recent devstream they’ve brought up the possibility of self damage returning to AoE. I’m here to put my 2 cents in.

If and ONLY IF this has to come back I would like to bring up a few things. Not all AoE is equal. Putting this through as they’ve explained it will hurt many weapons that don’t need to be nerfed, at least not in this way. I’ll bring up a couple of examples.

Trumna: Primary fire has AoE, but it’s suuuuper small. What happens if a rogue enemy or friendly runs into your line of fire and you tear apart your health? And the secondary fire, it bounces everywhere. What happens if it bounces off a wall and comes your way? The Trumna is strong yes, but it’s fairly balanced. This would make the weapon not fun to play with at all.

Cedo: Not entirely sure if it’s listed as an AoE weapon. You can’t put firestorm on it. But I can stun myself if I’m too close to a disc detonation. If it is and this proposal effects it, like with the Trumna, you can’t control where the disc goes. This is even worse for this gun because the disc isn’t even designed for damage. It’s a primer for the primary fire. So you’re telling me that it’ll tickle enemies but if the disc comes close to me 75% of my health is gone?

These are only a couple of examples where this proposal would cripple what are otherwise fun guns to play. Key word there, fun. A topic that came up multiple times in the stream and previous streams.

If this change goes through I would ask that you meticulously go through every AoE weapon and cherry pick what weapons get this treatment. If that’s too much to ask for then at the very least set a minimum AoE limit an AoE must reach before it self damages. Like an AoE of 5 meters or more will have self damage, any less and there won’t be.

When this was brought up my heart sank. This would make a large category of weapons not fun to play. Weapons that are being caught in the crossfire when they really don’t need to be.

[Drachnyn]

DE once again about to prove that the only tool they know how to use is a sledge hammer. A % cap on self damage atleast gives some hope they are not completely lost in the sauce. Prior to the removal of self damage, there were a lot of weapons that were literally only good for killing yourself. They did basically nothing against enemies but because of how asymmetric damage in this game is had no problem killing yourself. With how chaotic someone can move into your firing line that sealed the grave on most weapons with self damage. Bramma broke out of that by being the first self damage weapon that had reasonable payoff.

A blanket reintroduction of self damage would be beyond stupid.

[fo3nixz]

Rip all the glaive users if u detonate by you.

 

[Yakhul]

I truly hope self damage doesn't get the thumbs up again. I'm sure all of the chroma and mirage lovers will cry blood and point guns at me for taking away their self buff mechanic, but self damage was NEVER good.

Then we got self CC, which was vastly better than self damage, and yet, people complained about it, somehow, even more than with self damage.

Honestly? at this point? It feels as if DE is being backed against a corner on the topic of the AOE weapons. Regardless of what they do with em, and the mechanics tied to them, there will be a vocal portion of the playerbase that will complain about it.

[Rantear]

Don't forget AoE Amps.

That would be a third nerf to them, as I fully expect them to deal way more self-damage than they ever did.

When introduced, self-stagger was added to a lot of weapons that never had self-damage in the first place, even though it was intended by design that they don't deal self-damage, I fully expect them to deal it after the change.

Also, there was no confirmation (at least I have not heard it) that self-stagger would be gone with this change, they might just do both, as currently AoE weapons already feel quite unplayable without very specific setups, and due to the fact that they even have those conversations, it seems that their intention is to make them as unplayable as possible.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

15 minutes ago, Yakhul said:

Honestly? at this point? It feels as if DE is being backed against a corner on the topic of the AOE weapons. Regardless of what they do with em, and the mechanics tied to them, there will be a vocal portion of the playerbase that will complain about it.

It's almost like they should have just left it alone instead of caving to the small amount of whiners who get left in the dust by higher MR players in void fissures. Imagine wanting balance in a PVE Horde shooter? People need to just shut the Hek up and stop trying to ruin everyone else's enjoyment of the game!

[--END--Rikutatis]

30 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Bramma broke out of that by being the first self damage weapon that had reasonable payoff.

That's not entirely correct tbh. There were a bunch of self-dmg launchers that were very powerful for the standards of those days. Like zarr, secura penta, even prisma angstrum with a riven, etc. You have to remember there was no Steel Path back then, those weapons were clearing rooms in regular star chart just like kuva bramma and kuva zarr did in SP afterwards. But still, very few ppl wanted to deal with the self dmg to reap the benefits of that AoE. Bramma was just so ridiculously overpowered compared to everything else that existed in the game until then that everyone freaked out and demanded self dmg to be removed so they could use it. And Steve gave in to the demands.

[DeadVoid118]

I don't think self-damage should ever return. If it absolutely has to, which I don't think is the case, the only way I would ever come close to accepting it is if weapons started showing the AoE of their attacks while you're aiming so you can know when you're going to hit yourself, and still it would be terrible.

Please, DE, don't ever put self-damage back in.

[--END--Rikutatis]

Personally I don't think % self dmg is the best way to nerf launchers. It'll adversely affect some weapons and frames more than others and it can be cheesed very easily with heals like gloom. I think adding LoS checks like they did with melee would be better. So explosions stop going thru walls and ceilings. 

[Mieo_Mio]

As a Mirage main, I support self-damage regardless. When they initially devstreamed  the announcement of self-damage removal I knew it was going to get out of control. In a way I also felt it was also going to be reinstated eventually.  I didn't see all of the devstream so I have to look at it later, but even moderate self damage is a good thing imo.  If you're going to have to think twice before detonating at your feet or the wall in front of you, I can't understand why players might think this might be a bad idea. (short of a player getting in front of you.) I give it a thumbs up.

[Numerikuu]

It depends on how they go about doing it really. As long as self-status procs aren't part of it then sure, otherwise we'll see the return of radiation proc trolling.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I'm against the re-introduction of self-damage under any circumstances, and I don't even use AoE weapons. It's basically friendly fire, except the logic that's being applied to this should make it kill your team mates as well... but you'd never add that... for good reason (except for radiation hazard sorties... but we all know how "fun" those are). Self-damage doesn't make game-sense. Sure, it makes "real world sense"... but this game doesn't really care about that.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

3 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

It depends on how they go about doing it really. As long as self-status procs aren't part of it then sure, otherwise we'll see the return of radiation proc trolling.

this. in true forum fashion, people are already panicking about what *might* happen.

I for one am OK with it coming back, it's just a question of making it more forgiving than it was originally. personally I'd advocate for a "three strikes, you're out" system: the first time you take no damage, the second time is capped to 50% of your health, and the third is uncapped, so it can be lethal. there would be a cooldown of a few seconds inbetween "strikes", so if you lay off the careless AoE spam for a second, you won't be in danger: it's only if you try to recklessly spam it, which is a player problem, there's no other way to say it.

as for small AoEs, just allow those to not have self harm, it's not worth the trouble and it would be detrimental to the strike system I proposed, whcih is intended for those wide-radius weapons like Kuva Bramma, Kuva Zarr etc.

 

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

RIP scourge, high RoF with small AoE, seems like a deathtrap in a lot of situations

[Numerikuu]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

as for small AoEs, just allow those to not have self harm,

Just now, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

RIP scourge, high RoF with small AoE, seems like a deathtrap in a lot of situations

That's my only other concern with it returning considering many weapons have a small AoE to them. I can see it now... you throw down your speargun, only for it to kill you in the process 🤣

[Yakhul]

52 minutes ago, DeadVoid118 said:

I don't think self-damage should ever return. If it absolutely has to, which I don't think is the case, the only way I would ever come close to accepting it is if weapons started showing the AoE of their attacks while you're aiming so you can know when you're going to hit yourself, and still it would be terrible.

Please, DE, don't ever put self-damage back in.

Or, you know...

Make the AOE weapons truly ultimate. Make it so that all of the drawbacks of using an AOE weapon, will be shadowed by the sheer damage they can deliver.

Limited ammo, limited ammo drops, dangerous to yourself should you aim em at the floor like a monkey, but hey, at least, they will obliterate ANYTHING that it touches. Those pesky eximus units? just aim, and eximus gets deleted, whats overguard for an AOE weapon anyways?

[devildevil21]

% HP dmg on self damage is dumb. Warframes with shields including rhino, nezha, wisp's 2nd, revenant, etc, all will be able to skip that mech, so AoE players will simply migrate to different warframes. If protective shields don't protect against dmg and it still deals hp% dmg, then hp regen warframes will shine, especially wisp since her 1 buffs hp regen. Unless they make the HP dmg % insanely high (like 80% or so, to out-heal most hp regen skills), self damage coming back is doomed to fail.

[Skoomaseller]

please god I hope they take your advice. but given their track record I'm not sure if it'll end well

[Hardwood]

Self damage sucks and the fact that we might get it back because people are such whiny little *@##$es over this pretend AoE 'nerf' is ridiculous.

[L3512]

In before DE forget multishot or cluster munitions and the percent base damage just frags everyone anyway.

Also RIP Epitaph as a primer and a whole host of other weapons because why deal with Bramma, Zarr and Ogris directly when you can dish collateral out everywhere.

[SiriSnugglebottoms]

I think self-damage is a splendid idea. The only problem with it is it seems very inconsistent to only add it to weapons so we should also add self-damage and self-stagger to abilities as well so the people who circumvent the problem can show how hypocritical they are.

[GSDAkatsuki]

I don't mind them bringing back self-damage, just don't bring it back without rebuffing the AOE weapons from all the nerfs they took since DE conflictingly removed no self damage with no real downsides. If self-damage were to come back, they need to get rid of the AOE damage % radius and rebuff the ammo economy. 

[Zimzala]

This will be fun.

[Champagne_23]

So the power phantasy is dimmed down.. again.

I don't know why they don't embrace the arsenal being as OP as possible and work on the damn content so we can actually have a reason to adjust the weapons not just force the usage down, which is insanely ridiculous.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

With DEs version of co-op and how enemies move and spawn, bringing self damage back would be a mess.