Self Damage: My Thoughts

[Danielw8]

instead of aoe changes and attacking aoe everytime in every single meta, what about if you change how the game works and im not sorrounded by 30 enemies in a single room at first 15 seconds of survival sp, or what about if instead of killing 180-220 enemies in exterminate mission you make just max 50 enemies but very strong enemies at that point you cant kill it with your bramma because you will run out of ammo

We went from catchmoon, to melee and now in to weapons with aoe nerf. Want people using smg and snipers in daily missions? make them worth to use

We are using single target weapon for only specific boss kills like liches, eidolons or profit taker, and guess why? they not need dmg buff (recent headshot multiplier) they actually at this moment hits really hard, they actually have more damage than aoe

Rubico prime hits by 1 or 2 million slash damage at first 2 min of survival, i cant do that with bramma, why i still using bramma? i cant deal with many enemies killing it one by one even if its one shot for all of them

Check your game guys, for once devs need play the game and you will see where is the problem.. Khal mission its a good example how warframe need to be, max 50 enemies kills in a 20min run with different puzzles and objetives..

[TeaHands]

If they do go with % Self Damage. I think they should add a 1-2 second cooldown period for you to not take anymore self damage to prevent abuse and unpredictable explosions like Trumna's alt.

[(XBOX)THE NTT]

12 minutes ago, Champagne_23 said:

So the power phantasy is dimmed down.. again.

I don't know why they don't embrace the arsenal being as OP as possible and work on the damn content so we can actually have a reason to adjust the weapons not just force the usage down, which is insanely ridiculous.

impossible. You can't just keep giving power creep and say "well make tougher enemies"
because then people complain that don't have those weapons or that meta "oooohh the content is too hardz"

and worse, any new weapons again have to be more powerful than the existing, or people whine "all the new stuff sucks and is just fodder" so they introduce more powerful stuff
then players complain the content is too easy.

Probably need to stick a fork in it, call it done, and release warframe 2.0 or soulframe and start from ground zero and have another 8 year run of constant power creep.

 

[Yakhul]

35 minutes ago, SiriSnugglebottoms said:

I think self-damage is a splendid idea. The only problem with it is it seems very inconsistent to only add it to weapons so we should also add self-damage and self-stagger to abilities as well so the people who circumvent the problem can show how hypocritical they are.

If and ONLY IF the weapon damage output is GREAT, i would reconsider the idea that self damage is a good idea.

But in reality, it isn't, it never was, it never will, as long as they pose more of a threat TO US than to the enemy.

Before self CC, you would see people running with things like Tonkor, Ogris, and other popular AOE weapons, shooting a lvl 70... yes a lvl 70 enemy, which by all means is still "weak", and it barely ticked it, while you were blasted away. Sure, i argued that you still had self revives, but that wasn't the issue. The issue is, the enemy is still standing, after using a clearly POWERFUL weapon against em, while you just ate space dust.

The Kuva Bramma broke the mold, and for a brief moment, it was the best representation of what an AOE weapon with self damage should be: Big Risk = Big Rewards. The Kuva Bramma dished INCREDIBLE damage, while being ABSURDLY dangerous to use, as its AOE was huge, the biggest one of all AOE weapons at the time.

And then self CC replaced the self damage, which was a great thing. But only for a minor vocal minority, this change meant that the game was "unplayable" to them, I'm talking about the Chroma mains, that used the Hikou with the mod Concealed Explosives, to deal self damage to them, buffing their Vex armor without the need to have enemies hit em. They argued that because self damage benefited A SINGLE WARFRAME, it should stay, while the other 48 warframes could just suck it.

So why keep a mechanic that hurted everyone, for the sake of a single frame? There was no reason. So, into the trash it went to make company to Super Jump and old Wukong.

TLDR: Self damage will never be good, in the current state DE explained it. For it to even merit to return, we need to have big risk = big rewards

[Champagne_23]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)THE NTT said:

impossible. You can't just keep giving power creep and say "well make tougher enemies"
because then people complain that don't have those weapons or that meta "oooohh the content is too hardz"

and worse, any new weapons again have to be more powerful than the existing, or people whine "all the new stuff sucks and is just fodder" so they introduce more powerful stuff
then players complain the content is too easy.

Probably need to stick a fork in it, call it done, and release warframe 2.0 or soulframe and start from ground zero and have another 8 year run of constant power creep.

I imagine is not easy but the constant approach to slow the players down is also not ok, and people complaining about too hard enemies should not be always pleased, you need to have some equipment to strive for so you can face harder content.

I mean, they did this to themselves, for example release a kuva zarr with bramma dominating the usage charts already, envoy, aoe alt fires, like they were promoting aoe. And now, let's take an 180 because they are too stronk..

 

If they add self damage, there are a lot of ways to mitigate that, healing abilities, arcanes & warframes, and you are not going to guess what's next in line for "balance".

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

I have said this was the needed change for the fighting the new meta thats being so baddly abused and making afk play and farming such a problem.  the percentage self damage sounds more like what the change should of been back when they removed it entirely to begin with.  even when there was fewer frames with self healling options.  quite litterally seems the best option maybe partially roll back some of the ammo changes on a few of the weapons as a few they seem to have gone a bit over zelous on the changes. 

[DeadVoid118]

1 hour ago, Yakhul said:

Or, you know...

Make the AOE weapons truly ultimate. Make it so that all of the drawbacks of using an AOE weapon, will be shadowed by the sheer damage they can deliver.

Limited ammo, limited ammo drops, dangerous to yourself should you aim em at the floor like a monkey, but hey, at least, they will obliterate ANYTHING that it touches. Those pesky eximus units? just aim, and eximus gets deleted, whats overguard for an AOE weapon anyways?

No thanks. They did that already when self-damage was a thing, and nobody used them with good reason.

If you miss a headshot, you do less damage. If you miss your self-damaging explosive shot, you're dead. That's a very big difference.

[EdinaMonsoon]

i guess i won't need to worry about PSF anymore?

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

They already have a way to nerf launchers which is ammo. 

Now they just need to double down on it with some QoL changes. No empty slots so you always have another gun or melee to use. Affinity is equal for all weapons, and not split between all categories. Or if a weapon is maxed, all the xp is dumped into the remaining weapons. Etc. Make it rewarding to have a full loadout. 

[FA22_RaptoR]

I dunno, if they're so worried about launchers being spammed everywhere, why not bring back the arming distance feature like the Acceltra and Kuva Tonkor used to have? That would prevent people from just running around spamming AOE at their feet, but keep them useful for even medium to long range usage without having to annihilate their usage?

Not saying this is the right idea, but I never had any issues back when the ol' Tonk had the arming distance. Was endless lulz to narf an enemy in the face - point blank - with a dud grenade and knock them over :p

[-Moctezuma-]

3 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

please god I hope they take your advice. but given their track record I'm not sure if it'll end well

I hope they bring self damage back 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

18 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

I hope they bring self damage back 

If they do it will be % based. So still won’t matter, it’ll just invalidate Prime sure footed..so why make the effort? 

[nslay]

Ah yes... we'll watch players abuse Chroma again. It's perfectly normal to self-damage yourself with Hikou Prime to buff your armor and damage.

[trst]

Important to note that they explicitly said they're not committing to any changes and are just discussing what they've been looking into potentially doing should they need more. As data and usage stats are still too volatile so they don't exactly know where everything is settling at.

Also the specifics they did mention was making it percent based, with the most self damage mentioned being 75% of your max health, and that diminishing with damage falloff. As well it being reduced further if you hit an ally or something. And on top of it all self CC is being removed entirely so players who can't not shoot themselves don't need P.Sure Footed.

 

Personally I'm more surprised it took this long for them to look at returning it. As even pre-self damage removal it was a genuine skill issue to blow yourself up and you still had ways to bypass it with abilities that make you invulnerable. If players want to insist on only shooting enemies two meters in front of them then they'll be punished for refusing to get better. And those who continue to refuse to improve will likely be able to switch to a frame that removes the interaction entirely yet again.

And even if players are somehow unlucky enough for others to repeatedly jump directly into your shots it's not like going down is even a detriment. We have 4-6 self revives, potentially infinite with Last Gasp, that aren't even utilized due to how weak enemies are throughout the entire game. Having 6+ second chances is pretty generous for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place.

 

All in all just like the ammo changes it'll do absolutely nothing to the efficiency and effectiveness of AOE for anyone who puts any amount of thought into how they play/build. At best it'll stop players from having a boss fight with their own feet throughout an entire mission. Unless they don't make it bypass ability effects then the entire system can be, once again, disabled by your frame selection and players will continue fighting their own feet.

But hey, if they leave in immunity via abilities then at least it might be a nice bump to Revenant's PA sales. Also it'll be fun to see the wave of complaints over DE "invalidating" players investing into P.Sure Footed.

[nslay]

6 minutes ago, trst said:

Also it'll be fun to see the wave of complaints over DE "invalidating" players investing into P.Sure Footed.

As long as harpoons and knockdowns from enemies are ignored with P.Sure Footed... Endo well spent.

[trst]

11 minutes ago, nslay said:

As long as harpoons and knockdowns from enemies are ignored with P.Sure Footed... Endo well spent.

Yeah, but it would be reasonable to consider that things have multiple functions. Which seems to a line of thought that never enters the headspace of the the types who always say their investments were "invalidated".

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter said:

So in the most recent devstream they’ve brought up the possibility of self damage returning to AoE. I’m here to put my 2 cents in.

If and ONLY IF this has to come back I would like to bring up a few things. Not all AoE is equal. Putting this through as they’ve explained it will hurt many weapons that don’t need to be nerfed, at least not in this way. I’ll bring up a couple of examples.

Trumna: Primary fire has AoE, but it’s suuuuper small. What happens if a rogue enemy or friendly runs into your line of fire and you tear apart your health? And the secondary fire, it bounces everywhere. What happens if it bounces off a wall and comes your way? The Trumna is strong yes, but it’s fairly balanced. This would make the weapon not fun to play with at all.

Cedo: Not entirely sure if it’s listed as an AoE weapon. You can’t put firestorm on it. But I can stun myself if I’m too close to a disc detonation. If it is and this proposal effects it, like with the Trumna, you can’t control where the disc goes. This is even worse for this gun because the disc isn’t even designed for damage. It’s a primer for the primary fire. So you’re telling me that it’ll tickle enemies but if the disc comes close to me 75% of my health is gone?

These are only a couple of examples where this proposal would cripple what are otherwise fun guns to play. Key word there, fun. A topic that came up multiple times in the stream and previous streams.

If this change goes through I would ask that you meticulously go through every AoE weapon and cherry pick what weapons get this treatment. If that’s too much to ask for then at the very least set a minimum AoE limit an AoE must reach before it self damages. Like an AoE of 5 meters or more will have self damage, any less and there won’t be.

When this was brought up my heart sank. This would make a large category of weapons not fun to play. Weapons that are being caught in the crossfire when they really don’t need to be.

Agreed.

5 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

DE once again about to prove that the only tool they know how to use is a sledge hammer. A % cap on self damage atleast gives some hope they are not completely lost in the sauce. Prior to the removal of self damage, there were a lot of weapons that were literally only good for killing yourself. They did basically nothing against enemies but because of how asymmetric damage in this game is had no problem killing yourself. With how chaotic someone can move into your firing line that sealed the grave on most weapons with self damage. Bramma broke out of that by being the first self damage weapon that had reasonable payoff.

A blanket reintroduction of self damage would be beyond stupid.

>sledgehammer.

 

Yup exactly. I was happy to hear talk of it being percentage based at least. 

5 hours ago, Rantear said:

Don't forget AoE Amps.

That would be a third nerf to them, as I fully expect them to deal way more self-damage than they ever did.

When introduced, self-stagger was added to a lot of weapons that never had self-damage in the first place, even though it was intended by design that they don't deal self-damage, I fully expect them to deal it after the change.

Also, there was no confirmation (at least I have not heard it) that self-stagger would be gone with this change, they might just do both, as currently AoE weapons already feel quite unplayable without very specific setups, and due to the fact that they even have those conversations, it seems that their intention is to make them as unplayable as possible.

I dont know why they allowed aoe to be the way it was as long as it was and all of a sudden want to bust out not just the nerf bat but as was pointed out, the nerf sledgehammer. 

And they sound genuinely excited anout the possibility of nerfing AOE further. Why? 

 

Is AOE that out of control now? Still? I dont see how i dont see them getting used that often anymore.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

If they do then they better undo the "nerfs" to weapons like Battacor that were added with self stagger.  Battacor NEVER did self damage... but when they switched from self damage for AoE, they inexplicably made changes to Battacor's alt fire and added knockback/stagger.

Battacor is a perfect case for a high power single target weapon that will also die if self damage comes back and its changes not appropriately reversed.   The alt laser's AoE was never enough to justify any changes at all.    

Personally I think self-damage is dumb.  I never touched AoE until its removal because of how bad it was.  No room clearing potential is worth potentially 1 hitting yourself at every step... especially when said room clear can be achieved with frame powers lol.  

Removal of self damage was one of the best things to ever happen to the game, and largely removed the hyper focus on AoE frames... guess what's going to happen over time now... back to whining about how x frame isn't viable in the light of AoE frame of the day.   The last 3 or so odd years I have seen greater frame diversity than ever, at the cost of some weapon diversity.  It felt like a good tradeoff to me. 

Not to mention the silly dissonance between "realism."  Why can't I shoot myself with a gun?  Why can't I blow myself up with explosive abilities?  Why can't other players injure me?  In 99% of cases we aren't capable of damaging ourselves, that should be consistent imo.  Why is AoE the only one that has to pass the "realism" check?

Beyond all that, Warframe never handled self damage right.  Atleast in other games where rockets etc. have self damage, you can usually survive the shot, albeit in critical state.  There is 0% chance of that happening with WF math.     

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, -Moctezuma- said:

I hope they bring self damage back 

I don't. it was killed off for good reason.

[ReddyDisco]

We've come full circle from 2020 removal of self damage to readding it in 2022(or 2023). No risk aoe spamming was bound to end someday, it was inevitable. Atleast this time you don't one shot yourself with it being percentage based

[CopperBezel]

  

4 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

instead of aoe changes and attacking aoe everytime in every single meta, what about if you change how the game works and im not sorrounded by 30 enemies in a single room at first 15 seconds of survival sp, or what about if instead of killing 180-220 enemies in exterminate mission you make just max 50 enemies but very strong enemies at that point you cant kill it with your bramma because you will run out of ammo

Yep. This is the key thing. AoE weapons are the meta for a reason, because the game is designed in a way that incentivizes those weapons. There's even a reason the game is a horde shooter, which is that enemies are different colors of targets instead of having any unique gameplay attached to them. Once in a while they've introduced exceptions, the Nully, Ancient, and Nox in the olden days, and now the reworked Eximus. But the main deal of the Eximus is just being immune to half our ability casts, and we still need rooms full of mobs to make our magic abilities relevant. For fewer enemies to work, you'd need smarter ones that require individual attention, and that's not what any frame's ability kit is built around. Imagine if enemies were smart enough not to step into Nezha's fire trail or it was a rare occasion you could get three in an Accumulating Whipclaw or Spectrosiphon. 

Eh, maybe Loki's ability kit. He hasn't had a rework since the game was five enemies in the room at a time, four damage elements, and no operators or bullet jump. He'd fit in fine.  

You know, I actually really like the Laetum and those kinds of very gamey mechanics, but it's representative of where we're at that a gun exists that's AoE, but requires a couple of headshots to unlock before you can use it.

11 minutes ago, (PSN)N7_Dredgen said:

If they do then they better undo the "nerfs" to weapons like Battacor that were added with self stagger.  Battacor NEVER did self damage... but when they switched from self damage for AoE, they inexplicably made changes to Battacor's alt fire and added knockback/stagger.

They did it with all radial damage, and it's very hard to hit yourself with the radial damage of the Battacor and never results in a full knockdown. The needless nerf to the Battacor was giving the laser an obscenely high falloff within its tiny radius. If you ball up some enemies in an Ensnare and drop the charge shot on them, it kills the guy in the center and scuffs the other guys' armor. It's not even an unusually good gun, it's just cool, I don't know why they had to do that to my baby. The projectiles are just the right size, like half the size of the Fulmin's, and just fast enough, bit like the Supra. Part of why I was so happy with the Nataruk is that it almost has a bit of family resemblance in projectile style. 

Anyway, I was a fan of the fact that the self-damage replacement was consistently applied to all AoE. Like, why should it be a quirk of this or that gun whether I can walk through the explosions? Gotta be consistent to feel like there's rules to the gameplay at all. And just a bit before they removed self-damage, they dumped a bunch of AoE weapons on us that all came with arming distance, the Kuva Tonkor, Akarius, and Acceltra, which was an other attempt to spot-fix the problem without fixing the problem. Not helping anything. It's fun when guns have their own unique mechanics, it's not fun when they have their own independent game logic.

My favorite was that the Staticor, having long been the one AoE weapon that didn't have self-damage (it had in the ancient times but hadn't since), and having been remembered only because a month or two before it had its regular shot's AoE radius buffed for no apparent reason, got self-damage added to its charge shot for one day?

5 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

Atleast this time you don't one shot yourself with it being percentage based

Yeah, we're not going back to the before times here, this was one of the solutions to the self-damage problem that people were talking about before self-damage was removed. I think the percent-based system could be fine if it's implemented well, and consistently. I personally hope it doesn't mean removing the stagger, because % damage alone isn't going to slow down every strategy (and literally doesn't slow you down shooting like stagger does) but the two together give players something they're always going to have to work around somehow.

[Ethorin]

...here's a question... how many people with a big powerful launcher aren't also at the point of the game where they have on demand full heals to render any form of self damage that isn't "you dead now" irrelevant?

 

Anyone else remember when the Tonkor had capped self damage?

[Enxchiol]

And then ofcourse there is the issue of fire rate and multishot. My Akarius build fires 8 rockets with a single click. If every one of those did 75% health dmg at point blank, then even at falloff range, it would probably instantly delete me. 

 

Perhaps this should be a case by case base, every weapon has a stat for self damage taken, things like the Bramma could have the 75% but things like Cedo and Trumna should have 0-25% for example. 

[Enxchiol]

Oops accidentally posted twice, ignore this

[Danielw8]

3 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Yep. This is the key thing. AoE weapons are the meta for a reason, because the game is designed in a way that incentivizes those weapons. There's even a reason the game is a horde shooter, which is that enemies are different colors of targets instead of having any unique gameplay attached to them. Once in a while they've introduced exceptions, the Nully, Ancient, and Nox in the olden days, and now the reworked Eximus. But the main deal of the Eximus is just being immune to half our ability casts, and we still need rooms full of mobs to make our magic abilities relevant. For fewer enemies to work, you'd need smarter ones that require individual attention, and that's not what any frame's ability kit is built around. Imagine if enemies were smart enough not to step into Nezha's fire trail or it was a rare occasion you could get three in an Accumulating Whipclaw or Spectrosiphon. 

Eh, maybe Loki's ability kit. He hasn't had a rework since the game was five enemies in the room at a time, four damage elements, and no operators or bullet jump. He'd fit in fine.  

You know, I actually really like the Laetum and those kinds of very gamey mechanics, but it's representative of where we're at that a gun exists that's AoE, but requires a couple of headshots to unlock before you can use it.

Doing smart npcs its quite hard because warframes are to fast and the parkour its a thing, they cant really "hide and get cover", the only way to make it harder and smarter its giving them fast movements (flying right to left, dash, rolling back)

the core gameplay need a deep rework, and that rework need to be tested for specific time in open beta test, you cant also jump from 200 enemies to 50 just like that, its way to agressive. Again, i have all warframes all weapons 90% of them with formas, and i allways end using bramma nukor stropha for daily missions even if its steel path, the game its quite extreme we have tons of enemies or ignore enemies and run to extraction (spy, capture, hive or even defection)