The Phantasma Prime looks to be nearly a straight downgrade from the original

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

It's a fairly mediocre upgrade yes.

You don't have any space for crit mods anyway; two galvanized mods, 3 elements, faction mod, fire rate, and free slot for ammo mutation/4th elemental + beam length/ammo mutation in exilus fills all 9 slots. Whatcha gonna drop for crit that isn't a net downgrade.

On the other hand, how do you meaningfully upgrade a weapon that is already near the top of the food chain.
Maybe start by not nerfing its ammo I guess.

[ReddyDisco]

It has decent crit damage, arcane avenger will be great on it, looking forward to melting things with it.

Ammo isn't an issue with shotgun mutation mods but that would need people to adapt and slightly change their builds which is of course impossible /s

[L3512]

2 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Wow....such negative energy for a weapon we haven't touched yet. By the way, did DE mention ammo maximum? Capacity is one thing but, with only a half second reload speed, I'm guessing the ammo maximum will be significantly higher than the base version. Also, the shots looked more like a beam shotgun, similar to the Phase. If this is true then actual ammo consumption might be much slower than the standard. Either way, save your energy for when you actually can use the weapon yourself.

Can you not read a stat screen?

15 in the mag and 77 total ammo, 15 ammo per pick up.

Regular Phantasma is 11 in the mag, 275 total ammo with 15 pick up.

Phantasma is already a beam shotgun otherwise it'd be rubbish.

 

Just had another look and it seems only Revenant gets a larger magazine size, so I guess the prime gets 11 for other frames. 

[Ethorin]

ummmmm...

 

BTW, did anyone actually watch the Prime Trailer where Phantasma P shoots primary and alt fire?

 

It's not a beam anymore.

[Kaiga]

8 hours ago, shut said:

I swear to god, yall acting like enabling crit builds on a weapon-- a weapon that was already strong without them, mind you-- is going to be anything other than a MONSTROUS DPS boost.

No.



This is a medicore increase to damage at best. Perhaps with some kind of riven'd build to make up for the massive ammo consumption, but you have to remember that DPS is meaningless if not sustainable. And because of the ammo changes, it is absolutely not, even the stock phantasma was having problems.
 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

My curiosity is piqued. Though I am hesitant to form any judgement yet, until I have hands on experience. I vaguely remember the Knell Prime stats were inaccurate. Not that these stats are unbelievable, I could see them being accurate... That Max Ammo decrease though... 

Since speculation can be fun though, in the mean time... For transparency sake, Phantasma is also a personal favourite of mine. Not just because I think its really powerful, I also really like shotguns, beam weapons, and weapons with gimmicks. Phantasma is like all those things. Plus it makes me feel like a Ghostbuster! 

I think many of the expressed concerns so far are valid. Yes, many of us will be able to overcome the limitations of the weapon, to maximise its potential damage and power, and min max it into an even beastlier version of a powerful weapon.... but... its very fair and natural that many people look forward to Primed versions of weapons, to be struct upgrades, no matter the play style, and jumping through hoops to get those benefits is a souring experience. 

Naturally there can be justifications, but there can always be justifications, for everything. Not every issue raised, needs to be shot down with a justification (some its just a matter of phrasing as well). Like vanilla Phantasma is a really powerful weapon, so making a Primed version, would be... it makes sense DE would want to be careful. Personally, I don't think there is much issue in a single target weapon being uber powerful, (though its a beam weapon, so the ability to swipe across enemies is easy) but sure. Then some could say... well the Alt is AOE, but eh... hypothetically, if they made the ammo that low, just because of the alt fire? Kind of sucks for those that use it as mostly a beam weapon. However lets say that with the crit changes, the weapon just shreds through enemies, way faster, and so ammo changes are to try and balance it that way? Eh, well that makes bit more sense to myself. Especially if the idea, is that the intent, is that players should be running some sort of max ammo mod in the Exilus slot. 

Just looking at some paper stats/numbers, personally not really sure whether it would be so much more powerful, it needs to be balanced this way, but like I said before, I'd personally wait to get some hands on experience. Do sort of wish some other stats were buffed though, because it was kind of nice having weapons you would build ignoring Crit, as they could lead to fun builds, but now, its probably more efficient to build for hybrid. Can at least wait and find out in a few days. 

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

14 hours ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

77 ammo? it can go through  its entire magazine in like 2 seconds. so it has like 5 seconds of ammo until it runs out?

talk about a useless weapon.

 

14 hours ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Yikes. That’s a pretty bad ammo dump. 

 

13 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

did the math and it will take 9 seconds to burn through all of the ammo.

yikes.

You guys will be fine...

I'm literally in steel path spamming the thing and I'm stuck at 275 ammo. As soon as I empty the mag it goes right back to 275. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Also just a reminder that eximus units drop ammo 100% of the time on death....

[Tiltskillet]

8 hours ago, Ethorin said:

ummmmm...

 

BTW, did anyone actually watch the Prime Trailer where Phantasma P shoots primary and alt fire?

 

It's not a beam anymore.

There's one part at 40:45 where it's shown firing a beam that looks identical to now.  They might have scrapped something together from the altfire for the other bits, maybe because recoil and a shotgun-type boom seems more dramatic.   I'll point out that it still has 12 RoF, which implies an auto trigger, but that's not remotely what's conveyed during those other animations.

I'm not going to say anything is impossible based on a trailer, but it would be pretty weird if they changed it to a conventional shotgun, since it will turn off some of the people who've been most looking forward to the weapon.  I'm trying to think of the last time they changed a prime so radically.  Probably Zhuge, which was 3 years ago.

[Ethorin]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

There's one part at 40:45 where it's shown firing a beam that looks identical to now.  They might have scrapped something together from the altfire for the other bits, maybe because recoil and a shotgun-type boom seems more dramatic.   I'll point out that it still has 12 RoF, which implies an auto trigger, but that's not remotely what's conveyed during those other animations.

hmmmm, having watched it again, you're right, it does seem to be a beam still, just used the alt fire a lot in very weird places.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

25 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm trying to think of the last time they changed a prime so radically.

The Corvas Prime comes to mind. They changed the Shotgun spread from the normal variant to something more akin to the Arca Plasmor.

It was a pretty bad change though because the Corvas was generally used in the Profit-Taker fight and the changes to the shot style with the Prime version meant you couldn't one tap the legs. Hek, sometimes it would do 0 damage to them due to collision detection issues. 

[BR31]

The vanilla gun already struggles with ammo, beam weapons really like their range exilus and in this case you have to run mutations. 
 

[0_The_F00l]

I think the phantasma prime will be similar to how they introduced Corinth prime ,

More of a sidegrade than an upgrade ,

The primary fire seems mostly unchanged ,but the alt fire looks a little different , also not sure how much ammo per shot it would take (maybe it will have a different mechanic as well) and how charging or not charging would make a difference , 

The max ammo reduction is a bit ... Ehh guess that's why it's a sidegrade.

But man , the discussions i am seeing , a weapon now being considered good or not on max ammo and it's pickup before it's even available to play with. Guess they really managed to set a good balance mechanic by limiting ammo :D

I will reserve judgement until i can see the final stats.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

12 hours ago, L3512 said:

Can you not read a stat screen?

15 in the mag and 77 total ammo, 15 ammo per pick up.

Regular Phantasma is 11 in the mag, 275 total ammo with 15 pick up.

Phantasma is already a beam shotgun otherwise it'd be rubbish.

 

Just had another look and it seems only Revenant gets a larger magazine size, so I guess the prime gets 11 for other frames. 

You're right, I didn't see the mag capacity line and thought 77 was the mag capacity. Thanks for pointing that out.

[shut]

8 hours ago, Kaiga said:

No.



This is a medicore increase to damage at best. Perhaps with some kind of riven'd build to make up for the massive ammo consumption, but you have to remember that DPS is meaningless if not sustainable. And because of the ammo changes, it is absolutely not, even the stock phantasma was having problems.
 

Sweetie, this might come as a bit of a shock to you, but that's showing unmodded DPS. Which is a completely meaningless number.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

15 hours ago, (NSW)Dingr said:

The increase in crit stats does NOT matter at all when the final stats are both extremely low.  If you saw any other gun with 11% Crit Chance and 1.9x Crit multiplier, you would give up on building for crit and go for status / raw damage instead.

Don't believe me?  Let's look at the the regular Kohm shotgun that has similar crit stats at 11% Crit Chance and 2.3x Crit multiplier.  What builds do people use for the non-Kuva Kohm?  That's right, raw status and raw damage!

Um, speak for yourself. I've always built my Kohm as a Hybrid because it tends to deal more damage that way.

Even if a gun has like 5% Crit, but high enough Fire Rate, with how much stuff that boosts Crit you can build for it.

We'll have to see, but considering the regular Phantasma melts enemies in a second or less, that ammo reduction might be on purpose.

[Rantear]

13 часов назад, ReddyDisco сказал:

Ammo isn't an issue with shotgun mutation mods but that would need people to adapt and slightly change their builds which is of course impossible /s

Sacrificing a mod slot for that surely wouldn't make it a straight downgrade when compared to a non-prime version /s

[Skaleek]

Now you guys are making me worry about all my shotgun ammo economy. Time to go test. Hope Boar P is okay. Was already pretty ammo starved before the ammo changes.

[shut]

41 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Sacrificing a mod slot for that surely wouldn't make it a straight downgrade when compared to a non-prime version /s

You raise an interesting point, so I popped a suboptimal build into my Phantasma and did some steel path survival with it. No ammo mutation, no Carrier, no damaging abilities, no other weapons. No external sources of ammo recovery, nothing dealing damage but Phantasma.

Most of the gameplay was just sliding around holding M1 in the general direction of enemies, without trying to aim for heads. I came out of that mission with a whopping 5% accuracy.

Not once did I notice my max ammo dipping below 260. Not ONCE.

 

Seriously. The Phantasma has no issues with ammo economy unless your build is doodoo, or unless you're going out of your way to miss shots. And in that case, feel free to slot some ammo mutation on the Phantasma Prime, because you'll have 100% slotted it on the regular Phantasma anyways.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

46 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Now you guys are making me worry about all my shotgun ammo economy. Time to go test. Hope Boar P is okay. Was already pretty ammo starved before the ammo changes.

 

Its not that bad, and really just depends on your play style, and what content you enjoy. Depending on that, you might not even notice. 

May also depend on what shotguns you like. 

I like playing Steel Path, and now we have Steel Path Fissures. I also like taking in mediocre builds into Steel Path Relic Fissures, because sometimes the B and C tier list weapons are more fun/interesting, but also means, I might run out of ammo before certain types of enemies do (started to realise Corrupted Nullifiers can be annoying in Steel Path, when they spawn in groups of 3, with an Arctic Eximus or are Eximus themselves, and if they shield dance with each other (their Nullifier fields overlap, so you can't do meaningful damage to one, without another playing guard)

Thats just a specific example for myself, where i can run out of ammo for my fav shotguns. There are alternative counter play and options for myself too, I could use a better Secondary thats got a fast fire rate if I want to use the Exergis. Maybe I shouldn't be running a level 3 Styanax, yadda yadda. 

Boar Prime is still pretty good, in my persobal estimation. Strun Prime as well, still good. 

Do you have the Felarx? Its a great shotgun too you might like (just build and mod and use it for its base form). 

[Rantear]

37 минут назад, shut сказал:

because you'll have 100% slotted it on the regular Phantasma anyways.

Bruh, you think people either have perfect accuracy or try to beat the Man out of the walls with nothing in-between?

It's a 72% decrease in total ammunition, or only 7 clips vs 25 clips, you'll start hurting for ammo with it way before you will with the regular one, not a fair comparison in the slightest, you'd also need to take into account reduced ammo drops in co-op.

41 минуту назад, shut сказал:

whopping 5% accuracy.

After seeing 6 digit accuracy ratings, I wouldn't trust that thing at all, lol.
It's very wonky with the multishot, which Phantasma has innately,

 

I've personally never used the gun, but I've seen people say that they hurt for ammo with it, so I kinda got concerned about that.

But overall, yeah, probably not that bad, but we better wait and see how the Prime version actually handles, there's been a few bad Prime releases, I hope it's not another one of them.

[shut]

4 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Bruh, you think people either have perfect accuracy or try to beat the Man out of the walls with nothing in-between?

It's a 72% decrease in total ammunition, or only 7 clips vs 25 clips, you'll start hurting for ammo with it way before you will with the regular one, not a fair comparison in the slightest, you'd also need to take into account reduced ammo drops in co-op.

You misunderstand-- I mean that people will 100% be using ammo mutation on the regular Phantasma IF they currently consume more ammo than they recover. Thus, switching to Phantasma Prime (which has slightly better consumption/recovery ratio, due to more damage and identical pickup size) isn't going to suddenly demand a mutation mod that the regular phantasma didn't already have equipped.

9 minutes ago, Rantear said:

After seeing 6 digit accuracy ratings, I wouldn't trust that thing at all, lol.
It's very wonky with the multishot, which Phantasma has innately,

Yeah, fair enough 😂

My aim is godawful, though, so my point was that even just W+M1'ing bodyshots with a suboptimal Phantasma build will easily keep your ammo topped up at all times. Without the need for mutation.

As you and others have already said, though, it's best to wait until we can actually test out the weapon before being all doom-and-gloom about it. There might be improved stats that we haven't seen yet (beam range, secondary fire stats, unique mechanics, etc).

[Circle_of_Psi]

So your crying cuz the weapon won't be OP and stupidly broken on release?

 

Man you must really hate the AoE Nerf huh?

[Rantear]

29 минут назад, shut сказал:

You misunderstand-- I mean that people will 100% be using ammo mutation on the regular Phantasma IF they currently consume more ammo than they recover. Thus, switching to Phantasma Prime (which has slightly better consumption/recovery ratio, due to more damage and identical pickup size) isn't going to suddenly demand a mutation mod that the regular phantasma didn't already have equipped.

You see, you forgot to take into account that people using regular Phantasma have the possibility of switching weapons, and that they would not need to use the bandaid mods.

It shouldn't be an alien concept that higher ammo reserves allow you to, well, reserve more ammo.

It's the same with a Prime one, but you can fully circumvent the need for ammo mods with the regular Phantasma far easier due to higher reserves, where as with Prime version you might feel more inclined to use such mods due to running out of ammo far more often as majority of ammo pick ups will simply get left behind.

It is of course only matters if you can't kill enemies efficiently enough with it to the point where you'll be gaining more ammo than you lose, but it still doesn't sound to me all that realistic that you can live off ammo pickups that only give you 15 ammo, and drop with like a ~40% chance. It might work in survival, but I doubt it'll be viable in other game modes where you can't just stand in one place and accumulate ammo pickups nearby.

[shut]

1 hour ago, Rantear said:

You see, you forgot to take into account that people using regular Phantasma have the possibility of switching weapons, and that they would not need to use the bandaid mods.

Swapping weapons means even more ammo recovery for the Phantasma. Which makes ammo less of an issue for the Prime. You do get how that makes ammo less of an issue for the Prime, right?

 

EDIT:

Let me be more clear-- I do understand that the higher ammo pool on the regular phantasma means that you can dump out damage for longer without needing to recover ammo or switch weapons. My entire point is that this is NOT a common situation. Like, in order for this to be worth considering, a player who uses the phantasma and nothing else needs to meet one of the following criteria:

1. Their Phantasma build is too weak to kill effectively, OR
2. Their Phantasma build is strong but they dump all ammo into empty space, OR
3. They literally refuse to pick up the bazillion nearby ammo drops (e.g. they stand in one spot the whole mission without equipping Vacuum), OR
4. They are fighting an extremely tanky enemy with no additional mobs to drop ammo.

The 4th case is understandable, e.g. someone might pick Phantasma over Phantasma Prime if they're fighting Steel Path Lephantis (or just regular Lephantis during early game) or something. But for the other 99% of the game, ammo will never be an issue unless they're doing something HORRIBLY wrong... and even then, they could simply solve all ammo issues in a heartbeat with a single freaking Exilus mod.