The Phantasma Prime looks to be nearly a straight downgrade from the original

[Corvid]

When it comes to ammo sustainability, recovery is more important than capacity in the long run (as an aside, this is why I don't think the Merciless nerf is nearly as big a deal as some players are making it out to be). So long as you can reliably get enough drops to restock what you've spent (which in the Phantasma Prime's case is 1 ammo drop per magazine), it doesn't matter if your maximum reserve is 1 magazine or 10.

Since its damage stats have all been improved compared to its base version, Phantasma Prime is going to have an easier time killing enough enemies to achieve that sustainable drop rate.

[ReddyDisco]

12 hours ago, Rantear said:

Sacrificing a mod slot for that surely wouldn't make it a straight downgrade when compared to a non-prime version /s

a real shame indeed, if only a slot existed for utility purpose like ammo, if it one day gets added we should name it exilus /s

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, ReddyDisco said:

a real shame indeed, if only a slot existed for utility purpose like ammo, if it one day gets added we should name it exilus /s

I keep seeing this argument, that this mods negates the nerf.  That mod negates the mods I'm already using in those slots.  That means i have to lose utility or damage to put this ammo mod on, which...  is a nerf, and not a negated one.

[ReddyDisco]

28 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I keep seeing this argument, that this mods negates the nerf.  That mod negates the mods I'm already using in those slots.  That means i have to lose utility or damage to put this ammo mod on, which...  is a nerf, and not a negated one.

Utility doesn't have damage, hence why it's called utility. Only other mod you'd use there is beam length, phantasma has great beam length of 20m.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

18 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

Utility doesn't have damage, hence why it's called utility. Only other mod you'd use there is beam length, phantasma has great beam length of 20m.

Oh, good, you're modding my weapons for me now?  I don't want to be corralled into a bandaid mod to fix a senseless nerf.  I want my 50m beam.

[ReddyDisco]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Oh, good, you're modding my weapons for me now?  I don't want to be corralled into a bandaid mod to fix a senseless nerf.  I want my 50m beam.

Woah, i was just listing the most used mods there, don't take it so personally.  you can get back to whining, gl

[Rantear]

13 часов назад, shut сказал:

Swapping weapons means even more ammo recovery for the Phantasma. Which makes ammo less of an issue for the Prime. You do get how that makes ammo less of an issue for the Prime, right?

You really didn't need to write anything, as I've said it myself:

14 часов назад, Rantear сказал:

It's the same with a Prime one, but you can fully circumvent the need for ammo mods with the regular Phantasma far easier due to higher reserves, where as with Prime version you might feel more inclined to use such mods due to running out of ammo far more often as majority of ammo pick ups will simply get left behind.

 

13 часов назад, shut сказал:

My entire point is that this is NOT a common situation.

Well, your entire point is entirely an assumption made after trying it out in a single game mode.

Might as well try it out in a Simulacrum at that point.

 

13 часов назад, shut сказал:

in a heartbeat with a single freaking Exilus mod.

4 часа назад, ReddyDisco сказал:

a real shame indeed, if only a slot existed for utility purpose like ammo, if it one day gets added we should name it exilus /s

Assuming you don't use the Exilus mod already, Sinister reach always feels mandatory for beam weapons, as none have adequate range.

It's even worse in case of Phantasma, as it has a secondary explosive fire mode, which will most likely start dealing self-damage in one of the next updates, meaning low range is even less adequate to have on it than it is on other beam weapons.

 

Prime clearly has much lower ammo reserves, it's a nerf/downgrade by definition and one that you might need to counteract with a mod, slot for which you also most likely already use. Shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp.

[ToKeSia]

@[DE]Megan@[DE]Rebecca  Can you please answer why Phantasma Prime has only 77 ammo maximum while its original has 275 ammo? It looks like it was heavily nerfed.

[shut]

4 hours ago, Rantear said:

Well, your entire point is entirely an assumption made after trying it out in a single game mode.

Are you suggesting that enemies drop ammo at different rates in different game modes?

Mind you, Phantasma was one of my most-used weapons a while back, and I brought it into nearly every mission regardless of game mode. I never needed to equip ammo mutation on it, and Veilbreaker has only made its ammo management even easier.

I think I need to repeat and reemphasize this, because you seem to be ignoring this in favour of your theoretical gameplay situations, but the weapon literally never dipped below 260/275 ammo when aimlessly W+M1'ing with it using a suboptimal build. This isn't some edge case where the phantasma just barely kept up with its ammo consumption-- the thing produced so many ammo drops that there was literally not a single instance where the reserve ammo didn't refill instantly upon reload.

 

4 hours ago, Rantear said:

Assuming you don't use the Exilus mod already, Sinister reach always feels mandatory for beam weapons, as none have adequate range.

That is correct, yes. Thankfully you don't need to worry about that, because the phantasma does not need ammo mutation as long as your build is not doodoo. And you can argue against this by coming up with as many contrived theoretical situations as you want, it doesn't change the fact that:

19 hours ago, Rantear said:

I've personally never used the gun

and thus have no concept of what it's like to use the thing in actual gameplay.

 

Seriously. What brings you to argue so many times, with such confidence and such certainty, about the performance of a weapon that you self-admittedly have never used? It's somehow starting to seem like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Maybe leave the discussion to people who have actually used the weapon, yeah?

[Rantear]

34 минуты назад, shut сказал:

Are you suggesting that enemies drop ammo at different rates in different game modes?

Ammo drops from enemies -> enemies have different spawn rates in different game modes, you also move differently in different game modes which affects accesibility of ammo pick-ups, should be common knowledge.

Co-op also straight-up halves the ammo drops (or even less, don't remember the exact numbers, it's somewhere in the patch notes).

34 минуты назад, shut сказал:

Mind you, Phantasma was one of my most-used weapons a while back, and I brought it into nearly every mission regardless of game mode.

Your most used weapon is a version that has 4 times more ammo.

34 минуты назад, shut сказал:

Veilbreaker has only made its ammo management even easier.

Not exactly sure how cutting ammo drops makes it easier.

34 минуты назад, shut сказал:

I think I need to repeat and reemphasize this, because you seem to be ignoring this in favour of your theoretical gameplay situations, but the weapon literally never dipped below 260/275 ammo when aimlessly W+M1'ing with it using a suboptimal build.

Because your "practical" example is bad, I've already said so, twice:

(and saying it's a suboptimal build is meaningless without the build itself, I've seen other person on a forum say they use a non-min-maxed weapon, yet when they've shown their build it had 8 forma, prime and galvanized mods and an arcane, it is actually a very prominent problem on a forum, people even think maxed Eidolon arcanes are a given here.)

19 часов назад, Rantear сказал:

It might work in survival, but I doubt it'll be viable in other game modes where you can't just stand in one place and accumulate ammo pickups nearby.

5 часов назад, Rantear сказал:

a single game mode.

Might as well try it out in a Simulacrum at that point.

 

47 минут назад, shut сказал:

This isn't some edge case

You didn't specify, have you "tested" it in a solo SP survival? If yes, then you hogged all the increased enemy spawns in one place and had extra ammo drops, great example that surely represents majority of gameplay, lol.

34 минуты назад, shut сказал:

and thus have no concept of what it's like to use the thing in actual gameplay.

55 минут назад, shut сказал:

Phantasma was one of my most-used weapons a while back

Well, you have no concept of what it's like to use a Prime version of it, and also sounds like outside of this test you haven't used the regular version in a while, yet you argue as well.  

 

56 минут назад, shut сказал:

Seriously. What brings you to argue so many times, with such confidence and such certainty, about the performance of a weapon that you self-admittedly have never used?

Back to you, buckaroo.

Now let's see, where have I shown confidence:

5 часов назад, Rantear сказал:

It's a 72% decrease in total ammunition, or only 7 clips vs 25 clips, you'll start hurting for ammo with it way before you will with the regular one

higher ammo reserves allow you to, well, reserve more ammo

Prime clearly has much lower ammo reserves, it's a nerf/downgrade by definition and one that you might need to counteract with a mod, slot for which you also most likely already use.

Gonna try and argue that those are not factual even though they're purely related to stats?

You don't even need to use a weapon to see it.

1 час назад, shut сказал:

It's somehow starting to seem like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Maybe leave the discussion to people who have actually used the weapon, yeah?

Projecting much?

Get off your high horse, it's a public space, and not even a feedback sub-forum.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I keep seeing this argument, that this mods negates the nerf.  That mod negates the mods I'm already using in those slots.  That means i have to lose utility or damage to put this ammo mod on, which...  is a nerf, and not a negated one.

If you chose to spam a weapon for 20 minutes without using anything else you pay that price. 

[shut]

44 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Ammo drops from enemies -> enemies have different spawn rates in different game modes, you also move differently in different game modes which affects accesibility of ammo pick-ups, should be common knowledge.

And? Fewer enemies means fewer ammo needed to kill them. Should be common knowledge.

 

44 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Not exactly sure how cutting ammo drops makes it easier.

Sweetie, the phantasma recovers literally 3.4x more ammo than it did pre-Veilbreaker. Or 6.8x if you run solo.

Here are the ammo drop+recovery rates pre-Veilbreaker, and here are the ammo drop+recovery rates "post-nerf". If I did either of these calculations incorrectly, please feel free to correct me.

 

44 minutes ago, Rantear said:

You didn't specify, have you "tested" it in a solo SP survival? If yes, then you hogged all the increased enemy spawns in one place and had extra ammo drops, great example that surely represents majority of gameplay, lol.

I.... what? "Hogged"? Seriously?

You do realize that playing in a squad means that you're playing with, well... a squad, right? Yes, you only get 0.5x the ammo pickup drop rate (only 3.4x more ammo than pre-veilbreaker, the horror), but you also have 4x the number of players killing enemies and producing ammo pickups. Playing solo is literally the less efficient scenario unless your phantasma alone is outkilling the rest of your squad combined.

^{Also, I roam. Playing survival in one place is my idea of torture.}

 

44 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Well, you have no concept of what it's like to use a Prime version of it, and also sounds like outside of this test you haven't used the regular version in a while, yet you argue as well. 

"you haven't used this weapon recently if you ignore the time that you used it recently"
🤔

The prime version is the same damn thing but stronger. It's literally a more efficient version of a weapon that has zero issues with ammo efficiency.

 

44 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Back to you, buckaroo.

Gonna try and argue that those are not factual even though they're purely related to stats?

You don't even need to use a weapon to see it.

Projecting much?

Get off your high horse, it's a public space

[Rantear]

15 минут назад, shut сказал:

-snip-

Eh, you started somewhat reasonable, albeit still factually wrong in certain places, probably due to misunderstanding of core game mechanics, but ended very toxic, which is typical for a forum warrior. Either way, I'm not gonna waste more of my time with you, and the fact that you've ignored this tells more than words ever could.

51 минуту назад, Rantear сказал:

Gonna try and argue that those are not factual even though they're purely related to stats?

 

On a closing note, about this:

18 минут назад, shut сказал:

has zero issues with ammo efficiency.

There's still far more people saying that the gun already has ammo issues, and you still have failed to provide anything besides something very similar to an anecdotal "I've tested it in a Simulacrum".

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

9 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Eh, you started somewhat reasonable, albeit still factually wrong in certain places, probably due to misunderstanding of core game mechanics, but ended very toxic, which is typical for a forum warrior. Either way, I'm not gonna waste more of my time with you, and the fact that you've ignored this tells more than words ever could.

 

On a closing note, about this:

There's still far more people saying that the gun already has ammo issues, and you still have failed to provide anything besides something very similar to an anecdotal "I've tested it in a Simulacrum".

Still literally trying to waste all my ammo on purpose and I can't. This isn't the simulacrum.....any response? 

What specific situation are you running out of ammo? Because I haven't even gone below 200...

 

[Silligoose]

On 2022-10-01 at 1:14 AM, Kaiga said:

In terms of usability, this weapon is dead on arrival. The stat bonuses are: +8% crit and +0.4 crit multiplier on it's primary fire, and 72% less max ammo (77 vs. 275)

... On a status gun that is never built for crits, that burns through ammo like crazy. Were the designers high on Daughter's special mushrooms or something? Stats are below.

A lot of people know the Phantasma is an absolute monster (except when there are caps on status effects) with excessive damage. After the ammo changes, I played around a little with the Phanstasma and to be honest, if one incorporates replenishment for ammo within one's loadout, there isn't much of an issue, to the point where I don't actually recall dropping below 200 ammo.

The max ammo does seem low at first glance. I've not tested it extensively and have not tested it at various levels of power and I can certainly see players encountering circumstances where they do run out of ammo even with an ammo mutation mod when not using the weapon all that well, or due to lack of ammo replenishment, but I don't think it is as big an issue as one may initially think just based on stats.

The real question I suppose is, is the trade-off of lower max ammo worth the extra damage? There aren't really any instances in which the extra damage is needed. Due to aforementioned enemies with status resistances/immunities, it is far more likely for situations to pop up where the max ammo sacrificed will be felt, however, those situations will involve enemies against which one is better off using another weapon one brings to the mission anyway, so the answer will boil down to how much players end up valuing extra damage that serves little purpose, or max extra ammo that serves little purpose and what they have available in their arsenal to mitigate the low ammo max. 

Overall, I'd say the primed version seems as though it has the potential to be a better performer in missions despite the far lower max ammo, even if many in the community may not see the potential extra performance as having much value in comparison to building it correctly or to playing to its strengths and may very well end up being happier with the lower performing, but more forgiving, base form of the Phantasma.

[Tiltskillet]

56 minutes ago, Rantear said:

There's still far more people saying that the gun already has ammo issues, and you still have failed to provide anything besides something very similar to an anecdotal "I've tested it in a Simulacrum".

I've tested some in solo SPAdaro, mostly with pretty conventional Viral Electric or Viral Heat builds, except I avoided RoF.  (I've got Phantasma rivens, but I left them off.)  Banshee, so Sonar is a big help, but no direct ammo hacks like Dispensary or ammo efficiency.  I completely avoided using other weapons, which isn't how I normally play.

I think there's some validity to people saying there will be a problem.  I had to have a mutation mod and more fire control than normal in order to maintain something like ammo equilibrium.   I think my aim and patience is better than the average warframe player's but there are lots of people who could do better.  OTOH, Adaro is still a very short run, so results could  be a lot worse in endless as levels go up.  PU amount is more important than reserve in the end, but the latter is protection against streaks of bad luck with ammo drops.

For what feelings are worth before we actually have the weapon to test, I think ammo will be an issue for many players.  Especially ones who are reluctant to make build or playstyle adjustments, or are somewhat under-equipped.   Personally I expect to stick with Gal. Accleration instead of Mutation, and rely on using other weapons occasionally to regenerate ammo, which is a playstyle I enjoy anyway.  Range on the primary mode isn't necessary but it is useful  And it makes the altfire--probably my favorite feature of the weapon--way, way better.

Main fire on Phantasma is a beast though.  I think there's a case to be made that it could have been more ammo limited all along and still been a very good weapon.

[Kaiga]

On 2022-10-01 at 5:58 AM, Ethorin said:

hmmmm, having watched it again, you're right, it does seem to be a beam still, just used the alt fire a lot in very weird places.

it think it's a beam, they just use the alt fire more than virtually everyone does with this weapon.