Pablo's proposed self damage change is a good alternative to limited ammo.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

Someone will always complain, so just do what you think is right, even if I or anyone else doesn't like it.  

 

Why? - Because I'd much rather be at the mercy of my own skill than outright limited by ammo maximum, which I'm beginning to think shouldn't even be a feature. 

The Damage - The presence of shield gating makes self damage much less threatening. but I'd still reccomend an extreme fall off for self damage, which would require you to aim at your feet to two-shot yourself. Bear in mind that the damage of a fully modded out explosive or and launcher of any kind deals fat damage, so the drop off needs to be something like 99.999%, and that's probably at the least if I had to guess without crunching the numbers. 

The Builds - Chroma. There's no reason to scoff at self harm set-ups. It's a interesting type of build and should be allowed. 

The rollback - Straight up revert those ammo changes. I like the bramma because an explosive bow is cool af and it's also very good. Taking away items from players just because they like them is an easy fix, but fundamentally poor game design. I would suggest increasing the MR required to use some of these super weapons in the future and making the existing ones rarer or and harder to get.

A thought - Add some extremely rare enemy units that can show up with these weapons in high level missions. Like steel path and not early game. 

 

 

[(PSN)Silver1593]

Just buff inaros and ammo and merciless and i dont care about selfdamage

[AegidiusF]

If self damage is the price we'll have to pay to get our ammo back, I'm ready for it. Anything would be better than the Ammo (and Merciless Arcanes) nerf.

[Drasiel]

so a couple things to point out. Changing the mastery to be higher on Kuva and Tenet weapons won't actually do anything because how they are acquired ignores mastery locks. The foundry only seems to check if you are allowed to build a weapon and does not perform the check again to collect it. When you kill your lich/sister the weapon appears in your foundry ready to collect and regardless of your mastery rank and the required mastery rank on the weapon you can collect and use it.

While I think percentage of health self damage is a good thing, it will never be fair until explosive projectiles do not have clipping enabled on allies (both human and ai). One of the main reasons I shelved explosives was not because I was killing myself but because my kubrows and teammates were killing me. You can spend all the time and care in the world to check sight lines, get up high, make sure you are firing far enough away and then have your pet or teammate move in front of your firing line killing you.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

so a couple things to point out. Changing the mastery to be higher on Kuva and Tenet weapons won't actually do anything because how they are acquired ignores mastery locks. The foundry only seems to check if you are allowed to build a weapon and does not perform the check again to collect it. When you kill your lich/sister the weapon appears in your foundry ready to collect and regardless of your mastery rank and the required mastery rank on the weapon you can collect and use it.

I never realized that. 

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

While I think percentage of health self damage is a good thing, it will never be fair until explosive projectiles do not have clipping enabled on allies (both human and ai). One of the main reasons I shelved explosives was not because I was killing myself but because my kubrows and teammates were killing me. You can spend all the time and care in the world to check sight lines, get up high, make sure you are firing far enough away and then have your pet or teammate move in front of your firing line killing you.

To which I say: Get gud.

 

[SprinKah]

True, I mean tbh, we've had self-damage (in an even more BRUTAL way) for like...god, since pretty much the beginning of Warframe until a kinda while back...

We never complained, we never had any major problems with it, we saw them simply as...a different kind of playstyle that has its give-and-take's

Ok...we DID complain a bit, until the whole -self dmg exilus mod came out ( don't remember the name), it was good. 

Now, it's pretty much gonna be a built-in thing. I'm happy with that.

Plus, I hope thye bring back the whole "arming-distance" for Tonkor and Ayanga and what not as well. Idk why but I kinda liked them back then. 

[MJ12]

So you want AoE weapons to be better at being spammed but worse at any sort of active gameplay?

Because that's what self damage results in - encouraging pseudo-AFK gameplay. A player who is actively moving around and jumping across the map gets punished by being forced to deal with a suicidal weapon, a player who stands on a crate and shoots AoE blasts into a doorway forever - the "AoE spam" people claim to dislike and want changed - suffers no penalties whatsoever.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

a good alternative to ammo nerfs perhaps

but something tells me we're going to get Both

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

30 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

So you want AoE weapons to be better at being spammed but worse at any sort of active gameplay?

Because that's what self damage results in - encouraging pseudo-AFK gameplay. A player who is actively moving around and jumping across the map gets punished by being forced to deal with a suicidal weapon, a player who stands on a crate and shoots AoE blasts into a doorway forever - the "AoE spam" people claim to dislike and want changed - suffers no penalties whatsoever.

Isn't that exactly how explosives are Supposed to be used?

Look at any Normal FPS game where we aren't invincible beyblades

you use explosives defensively, find a good tactical position, chokepoints where enemies must pass. You're not supposed to use them casually while running around leeroy jenkins, you have to be smart about it or you just blow yourself up.

[MJ12]

22 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Isn't that exactly how explosives are Supposed to be used?

Look at any Normal FPS game where we aren't invincible beyblades

you use explosives defensively, find a good tactical position, chokepoints where enemies must pass. You're not supposed to use them casually while running around leeroy jenkins, you have to be smart about it or you just blow yourself up.

The point of the AoE nerfs is supposed to be twofold:

1. To stop "mindless" gameplay.

2. To stop players from removing other players' fun by, e.g., killing everyone before another player has a chance to contribute.

Self-damage fails to achieve either and in fact makes both systems worse. It encourages "mindless" gameplay because it punishes people using explosives aggressively, as you yourself admit when you say "you're not supposed to use them casually" - but using explosives aggressively is not only not the problem, but it's the gameplay that Warframe is supposed to encourage. Moreover, self-damage in lieu of, e.g., reductions in explosive blast radius or area damage, don't stop players from removing other players' fun, because many missions have significant sections where you have to defend an objective or fight waves of spawns, which are the time and place explosive weapons are actually eliminating fun - but standing on a crate and shooting ends up doing the exact same thing - players end up wiping spawns before other players can engage them, thus removing fun from other players.

And sure, I can look at "any normal FPS game where we aren't invincible beyblades." The problem is that Warframe is not "any normal FPS game" and thus "normal FPS game" balancing fits very poorly in Warframe. Just look at how most of the time sniper rifles are considered overpowered weapons in "any normal FPS game" and in Warframe they're niche tools for a small handful of fights. Warframe's enemies and players are far more mobile, enemies are actually much more aggressive in Warframe (yes, they're pretty basic horde shooter mooks, but they are quite aggressive), its engagement ranges are far more constrained (most fights will take place within 10-15m, whereas in most other games firefights take place at notably longer ranges), melee combat is more heavily emphasized, and there are far more enemies adding pressure so you have less time to line up precise shots. As an aside, one of the problems with non-AoE weapons likely comes from the fact that despite being extremely fast-paced, Warframe has near-nonexistent aim assist and few homing weapons. If non-AoE weapons had generous aim assist, without a single AoE nerf, I suspect that AoE usage rates would go down significantly because right now, the game's emphasis on mobility means that you can't line up good shots easily but single-target weapons are not designed so that average players can easily get good midair shots - Destiny has far more aggressive autoaim (it's why its gunfeel is so good) despite players and enemies moving slower and in more predictable ways.

So in a "normal FPS game" it is less likely for you to end up close and personal with enemies, you have significantly more time to think about whether you want to shoot or not, enemies generally have much more predictable spawn patterns which mean that you won't get surprised by sudden enemies right next to you, and the levels are generally much less cluttered and significantly more open, meaning that you have clean shots when you do it. The result is that self-damage might as well not exist in said games - I can count the number of times I've self-damaged myself in Halo:Infinite and Destiny 2 on one hand, total. This isn't me saying I'm some kind of ultra-elite player, either - I expect that people not ever damaging themselves with explosives because fights are slower-paced and take place over greater distances against less aggressive enemies is the norm, not the exception.

In other words, in a "normal FPS game" self-damage might as well not exist for game balance purposes.

[Drasiel]

On 2022-09-30 at 10:54 PM, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

I never realized that. 

To which I say: Get gud.

 

I can't really get gud about behaviours outside of my ability to control. Sure I can just never use anything but a sentinel (and I already am because of the multitude of issues with beast/robot AI) but I can't improve the awareness or behaviours of randoms in a mission lol.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

To be honest THe limited self damage would of been the perfect solution rather than the ammo changes.  I mean there are multiple self healing options now way more than when self damage was removed.  also the fear of blowing our own face off before made using aoe weapons more interesting back then I have since gotten away from them because was just a im too lazy to play button the way things are now

[BR31]

If they will implement it- > they should take the ammo changes back. But i suppose they want to keep both- which will be awful . 

[AegidiusF]

Le 01/10/2022 à 05:25, (XBOX)Architect Prime a dit :

The Builds - Chroma. There's no reason to scoff at self harm set-ups. It's a interesting type of build and should be allowed. 

This is would be one of the good things if self-damage comes back (I don't really like self-damage and I hope it won't come back, but for Chrome, I confess, it would be nice).

There is already a way to make a self-damage build that can work with Chroma even while shield gating : Combat Discipline Aura Mod (paired with something to regen HP - I use often the Magistar Sancti). Self damage would make this work even better (and it's a good thing), even though I wold prefer a Vex Armor rework to change its damage based mechanics.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 54 minutes, BR31 a dit :

If they will implement it- > they should take the ammo changes back. But i suppose they want to keep both- which will be awful . 

To be honest, if it's what we'll have to pay to get our ammo back, so please hurt me bad, hurt me hard : I'm ready to pay the price.

[Raarsi]

On 2022-10-01 at 1:54 AM, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

To which I say: Get gud.

And that's exactly why we won't get that: it promotes toxic behavior.  Someone could bring in an explosive weapon to shoot at allies the entire mission, resulting in gameplay being disrupted further than intended.

It also defies one of the main rules of programming 101: always expect the absolute worst of user behavior.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

9 hours ago, Raarsi said:

And that's exactly why we won't get that: it promotes toxic behavior.

That sentence is the most toxic thing about it. 

[Fenr3r]

Only as long as enemies also suffer the same change. Have bombards and the like suffer from their own haphazard bombardment.

[Leqesai]

On 2022-10-01 at 8:27 PM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

a good alternative to ammo nerfs perhaps

but something tells me we're going to get Both

Honestly I would not be opposed to this

[Leqesai]

On 2022-10-03 at 2:35 PM, Raarsi said:

It also defies one of the main rules of programming 101: always expect the absolute worst of user behavior.

This.

"Meta" is very commonly the most broken combination of game mechanics available.

 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

54 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Honestly I would not be opposed to this

I think they're piling on too many complications

rather than do Ammo nerfs, then this proposed 75% self damage thing

 

they should have simply Reverted Self Stagger back to straight up uncapped Self Damage

[Leqesai]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I think they're piling on too many complications

rather than do Ammo nerfs, then this proposed 75% self damage thing

 

they should have simply Reverted Self Stagger back to straight up uncapped Self Damage

As long as the self damage we are getting triggers on-damage stuff like it used to I think it is a net positive. Specifically equinox and chroma would benefit from it I think.

Also it removes the need to use primed sure footed if they get rid of the stagger. This is also a net positive imo.

There are absolutely negatives but personally I feel the ammo changes were good and the proposed self damage changes have the potential to be good as well.

 

[xcrimsonlegendx]

They'll probably just keep both nerfs.

[Kainosh]

On 2022-10-01 at 6:25 AM, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

at the mercy of my own skill

It really doesn't take much skill to stand on high ground, showering entire area with explosives.  

Limited ammo is a must to prevent this kind of sht.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

On 2022-10-07 at 3:14 AM, Kainosh said:

It really doesn't take much skill to stand on high ground, showering entire area with explosives.  

Limited ammo is a must to prevent this kind of sht.

Scroll up and you'll find one or two people who find that task impossible haha