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self damage just narrows frame choice (again)


(XBOX)ONI LawIiet

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to frames that either benefit from self damage (chroma) or frames that are so tanky / immune (revenant, rhino, nehza, inaros, hyldryn, etc. that it does not matter.

but dont worry, those tricksy and problematic banshee players will take themselves out :P

try. again.

straight up removing all AOE would be preferable to a meta where a specific build path (once AGAIN) allows you to bypass or ignore ALLLL the things DE does to once again just mindlessly spam AoE. (Insert anytime DE tries to blanket change anything and within 5 minutes a youtube video shows you what 5 things ignore DE's thing. 

 

I'm getting really sick of EVERYONE on the track getting blue shelled over and over every time DE tries to target 1st place. im just sitting here bouncing in my cart over and over trying to recover and play the game. 

 

EDIT: copied from below

about the 

"its % hp!" replies and whatever.

then its wisp, or oberon, or nidus, or whatever other narrow build path meta 

thats the point, dont give me "oh it works like this" 

 

there will be a way, there WILL be a meta build path to ignore whatever page of clunk and annoyance DE slaps on AOE and spam away

it will simply mean everyone is in 3-5 frames using the same 2-3 weapons AGAIN

just remove it at this point

 

PS: I feel like I'm watching dead by daylight devs jump through hoops to balance everything and anything in the game against nurse rather than just fixing nurse all over again. 

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Yea.... I fully expect Volt and Revenant being nerfed thanks to that.

Wukong might get nerfed again if they'll decide to do a sensible thing, and at least partially revert the ammo nerfs, instead of just trying to fully murder the guns, although I've heard that his clone straight up no longer works, so it might not be an issue.

I also remember seeing a video of Hyldrin bombing her own feet with release-state Bramma back when self-damage was a thing, so RIP to her shield-gate as well in advance.

Nezha/Rhino will depend on how it interacts with their defensive capabilities.

Wouldn't Inaros just mucking die from it? Mr Sandman doesn't exactly have anything unique going for him that could interact with it, and being percentage damage he would suffer as much as everyone.

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self Damage doesn't necessarily prevent using Warframes.

if it's like the Damage to Enemies and has falloff, but significantly sharper falloff.
if i'm basically shooting at my Feet, yeah okay, i guess. if i'm pretty close to the edge, i should be barely scratching myself at all.

if it goes like that, then it wouldn't affect Players that are actually trying, and so have no real negative effect overall.

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This is a result of them treating the symptoms, and not the cause.

People use AoE because the game incentivizes AoE as a solution for most missions; which is because most missions are won by kills/sec. Nerfs to AoE weapons will just result in people swapping to the next best thing, which would be AoE warframes and AoE melee, which are equally "mindless" (since people think shooting sitting ducks is skillful for some reason).

If DE really wants to shift towards making AoE less of the always-correct solution, they need to focus on making gamemodes that do not incentivize killing a crowd of enemies as quickly as possible. Spy, Defection, and Eidolon hunts are examples of this. The funny thing is, it turns out that only a tiny fraction of people actually wants this. What's much more common is that people want to change the game to get their slice of the meta pie, because powercreep and unfortunately lackluster balancing means that not everyone gets to play the way they want with other people.

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I skipped the AoE part of the devstream 'cause I never use AoE weapons; so as I understand, self damage is going to be percentage based now? Did they say how much or is still WIP?

EDIT: Are they keeping self stagger on top of that?

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DE only said they were considering it, and they're going to implement it differently this time around if they do. The other nerfs have meant nothing to people who weren't trying to afk farm, so I imagine this'll be another non-issue to actual players if this is implemented.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

either benefit from self damage (chroma) or frames that are so tanky / immune (revenant, rhino, nehza, inaros, hyldryn, etc. that it does not matter.

You probably missed the part where Self-Damage, if reimplemented again, is HP %% based loss... Meaning that even if you have 99% damage resistance, you'll still get the full Self-Damage.

 

Now, with that piece of information, please explain to us why Self-Damage restricts warframe choice.

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about the 

"its % hp!" replies and whatever.

then its wisp, or oberon, or nidus, or whatever other narrow build path meta 

thats the point, dont give me "oh it works like this" 

 

there will be a way, there WILL be a meta build path to ignore whatever page of clunk and annoyance DE slaps on AOE and spam away

it will simply mean everyone is in 3-5 frames using the same 2-3 weapons AGAIN

just remove it at this point

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4 hours ago, taiiat said:

self Damage doesn't necessarily prevent using Warframes.

if it's like the Damage to Enemies and has falloff, but significantly sharper falloff.
if i'm basically shooting at my Feet, yeah okay, i guess. if i'm pretty close to the edge, i should be barely scratching myself at all.

if it goes like that, then it wouldn't affect Players that are actually trying, and so have no real negative effect overall.

Whenever I read the "narrows frame choice" or "forced playstyle" argument, it's often a disingenuous way of admitting that they are on the wrong side of what the changes are aimed to do.

Warframe always has and always will be an AoE game for damage. That's just how it is. DE however, have never really liked when you shut off the entire game to be a walking simulator with an extraction screen. There have yet to be any AoE changes in the history of the game to actually make them not-viable as a whole. The flavor is just ever-changing.

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Also, wait, how the hell can doing self damage as a % of Shields/HP lead to narrow frame choice? I could see it happening if it was flat damage, as frames like Rhino, Inaros, Nidus and Hildryn would be more likely to tank it, but if it's a flat % off your shields and HP (or, hell, even with just HP) then theoretically everyone's got the same number of whiffs with a given weapon - and who knows how gating will effect it?

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I agreed, this bs been going crazy before and also again they think it is dmg % doesn't effect the players but that category was wrong, it does and everyone is going for that "infinite ammo" as none stop magazine, anyone want it, start look for arcane or we just go back doing meta slashing again like last time that someone PROVE THEIR POINT AGAIN that you can "beat the 1 gameplay only melee and not moving" we had this same BS issues again and again and now you have beef with explosive again and here we go again that steve said "all players don't take self dmg no more" this feel like we are walking backwards again and back to ground zero where everything is so chaotic again.  As again that % self dmg for all I hear is MASSIVE JOKE 🤡 as reviewing again, we had "REDUCE SELF DMG MOD" before and how did that end up?  Well we still got murder by our own explosive still because right now if remember Bramma that was meta and op for I wouldn't touch 100 feet pole because explosive weapons wasn't worth it getting blown up and now you want to START AGAIN THAT PTSD.

Reb, plz leave that alone, I am already have enough PTSD, I don't need another therapy go over with this again for it feel like your asking everyone to quit and don't touch warframe ever again and no one is going touch that new wolf frame if apply the rubbish idea because the fact it is rubbish apply that self dmg joke because you DIDN'T REALIZED THE LEVEL YOU THROW AT THE PLAYER GOING SELF DMG THEMSELVES PLUS IT IS STEP INTO SP MIX WITH MASSIVE EXMIUS WITH NUKES AND BOSSES!  I do not know know why you think this is ok when I gave bunch idea and gave no flipping care for such idea for it felt like you revoke my idea and trash it into the garbage can which it WOULD OF IMPROVE THE GAME BETTER!  Then again, I guess we aren't respecting the founder's say again.💢😑

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OK.

If its 10% damage, players will laught at it. My sentinel will heal me that much by the time I've finished reloading.

If its 50%, and abilities like Rhino's Iron Skin are not bypassed, then its 5% damage, and players will laugh at it as they run Rhino or Nezha.

If its 50% then squishy frames with small HP will get so hurt that they will be unviable. An Ivara with 225 heath will have 113 left after 1 "oops" shot, that's now in the region of being one-shot by anything on the starchat past e-prime.

if its anything, Chroma and his allies with Vex Armour will buff his base damage by 275%. If the self-damage hits shields too, then allies and Chroma get big armour buffs too! And it stacks with multipel Chromas! Spawn into a mission and first thing, is shoot yourself for damage numbers that can one-shot an archon using a stug! Not quite what was intended, I'm sure.

It will not stop players who can aim at distant targets, massive AoE explosions back as one player stands back and shoots the team fighting enemies as they come. Maybe zephyr will be ideal, fly up and blast away with AoE from a safe height. Really think this fixes the problem of too much AoE?

All in all, it might not affect players so much, but you can guarantee that whatever DE does, if they implement this, it will not fix anything. In the case of Chroma, it will make things laughably worse.

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25 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Whenever I read the "narrows frame choice" or "forced playstyle" argument, it's often a disingenuous way of admitting that they are on the wrong side of what the changes are aimed to do.

Warframe always has and always will be an AoE game for damage. That's just how it is. DE however, have never really liked when you shut off the entire game to be a walking simulator with an extraction screen. There have yet to be any AoE changes in the history of the game to actually make them not-viable as a whole. The flavor is just ever-changing.

As I popcorn 60 Grineer in mid air all at once with Coil Horizon, stripping their armor off with a subsumed skill and just watching Arcsphere melt the floating swirl of helpless souls in an inescapable death zone that is encompassing a 45 meter entire area around me and pulling everything in before it can even shoot, I have only one thing going through my mind:

Thank god they killed AoE and returned us to skill based gameplay!!

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10 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

OK.

If its 10% damage, players will laught at it. My sentinel will heal me that much by the time I've finished reloading.

If its 50%, and abilities like Rhino's Iron Skin are not bypassed, then its 5% damage, and players will laugh at it as they run Rhino or Nezha.

If its 50% then squishy frames with small HP will get so hurt that they will be unviable. An Ivara with 225 heath will have 113 left after 1 "oops" shot, that's now in the region of being one-shot by anything on the starchat past e-prime.

if its anything, Chroma and his allies with Vex Armour will buff his base damage by 275%. If the self-damage hits shields too, then allies and Chroma get big armour buffs too! And it stacks with multipel Chromas! Spawn into a mission and first thing, is shoot yourself for damage numbers that can one-shot an archon using a stug! Not quite what was intended, I'm sure.

It will not stop players who can aim at distant targets, massive AoE explosions back as one player stands back and shoots the team fighting enemies as they come. Maybe zephyr will be ideal, fly up and blast away with AoE from a safe height. Really think this fixes the problem of too much AoE?

All in all, it might not affect players so much, but you can guarantee that whatever DE does, if they implement this, it will not fix anything. In the case of Chroma, it will make things laughably worse.

hmm I don't think that what exact what she saying by 50%, cuz I think she meant was by 50% dmg of ur weapon inflict ur frame because that would instance death for most the frame for the tanky frame will survive.

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When they did the operator changes, I was very shocked to see them not use operator tied in with overguard.

Like, they wanted to give people a reason to play operator and they add a new type of enemy. 1+1=2.

 

You could do a million things but if it were me, I'd tie enemies to weapon classes, and do that for everything.

The main thing that makes the game braindead, isn't AOE or wukong, it's the enemies.

You don't pay attention because you don't have to.

 

If it were me, I'd let people spam AOE all they want but then add enemies that had to be headshot, or singleshot or interrupted with melee or whatever made sense.

Same as a spy frame belongs to spy missions.

Right now all the enemies are essentially the same, just hitpoints, every weapon type is 'just a number' and everyone uses the same status types.

There is no gameplay, it's just moving numbers around in notepad.

 

No amount of deleting content people grinded out or paid for is going to change that.

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The process of nerfing is a constant struggle, but a necessary one. Just because players will find the next best thing to exploit before it also gets nerfed is not a reason to give up.

Quote

Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. What gives the most reward for the least risk? What strategy provides the highest chance – or even a guaranteed chance – of success? Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.

Source: GD Column 17: Water Finds A Crack

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5 hours ago, Sylphaeri said:

This is a result of them treating the symptoms, and not the cause.

People use AoE because the game incentivizes AoE as a solution for most missions; which is because most missions are won by kills/sec. Nerfs to AoE weapons will just result in people swapping to the next best thing, which would be AoE warframes and AoE melee, which are equally "mindless" (since people think shooting sitting ducks is skillful for some reason).

If DE really wants to shift towards making AoE less of the always-correct solution, they need to focus on making gamemodes that do not incentivize killing a crowd of enemies as quickly as possible. Spy, Defection, and Eidolon hunts are examples of this. The funny thing is, it turns out that only a tiny fraction of people actually wants this. What's much more common is that people want to change the game to get their slice of the meta pie, because powercreep and unfortunately lackluster balancing means that not everyone gets to play the way they want with other people.

Well, in any "balanced game" AoE is one very unwieldy weapon that you are either get so little ammo replenishment from ammo drop or outright unable to replenish it so you throw it away when it's empty, not to mention the fatal damage if you detonate one at your feet so a % damage is less severe than your "balanced game".

Also, do I need to mention friendly fire? You can easily kill your teammates either accidentally or on purpose that you would be marked as a troll when you hold one so is that how we should balance AoE?

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1 hour ago, CephalonCarnage said:

if its anything, Chroma and his allies with Vex Armour will buff his base damage by 275%. If the self-damage hits shields too, then allies and Chroma get big armour buffs too! And it stacks with multipel Chromas! Spawn into a mission and first thing, is shoot yourself for damage numbers that can one-shot an archon using a stug! Not quite what was intended, I'm sure.

Inb4 no more buff from self damage

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come to think about it, she did said the AoE will harm allies...so if you have exmius specter wouldn't that specter do "GREATLY MASSIVE DMG" on you and other players?  The fact I believed the dev had screw up BIG TIME.   Ok lets take this example,

by the scale of specter of area or mission level like in 100s for you had Bramma or some sort of explosive dmg like the zarr kuva and x by the explosive and dmg calculation of that she claim to be 25% of dmg or how many time it hit you, your basically dead no matter what.  Even your kuva lich will keep on killing you 24 hour if you had it summoned or just pop out no where.

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