Silligoose Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 I've been listening to the Devstreams and it seems DE has some tenets regarding game features/mechanics and whether or not these features/mechanics require attention: Is it (too) disruptive to other players? Does it result in gameplay that is (too) automated? or; Is it dominant? With this thread, I wish to focus on the first tenet and illuminate some Warframe abilities that are overly disruptive in missions and essentially lead to the game becoming very boring for teammates. I welcome others within the community to illuminate abilities I do not mention, as I won't be mentioning everything that comes to mind: Gloom Gloom allows players to slow enemies by up to 90% in a fairly large area. The gameplay involved in facing enemies that move at 10% normal speed throughout a mission is boring. Having this kind of power available to all frames makes it extremely prevalent and the ability is very disruptive in not only defense-orientated missions, but missions in which more movement throughout a tileset is encouraged/required as well. Resonator Due to the mechanics involved, it is quite common to encounter situations in which enemies completely ignore the player in order to go shoot an invulnerable object that reflects damage. Due to the massive potential range, I've often encountered situations in which I am not even in the same room as a Resonator user, yet see enemies run straight past me and ignore me completely. In missions where players remain grouped due to the nature of the mission (some sort of defensive objective), enemies are essentially turned off. In missions where players have more freedom in movement, such as Survival, one has to go to another area of the map to get any sort of decent action, defeating any notion of co-op. Strangledome Khora uses Strangledome and it is GG. This ability combines switching off enemies and automated play, as a simple cast ensures not only the incapacitation of many enemies, but their deaths as well, all the while keeping even more enemies above and beyond the limit of Strangledome occupied with shooting their allies. Extremely disruptive with little gameplay to be found in more defensive-orientated (including Interception) missions. Molecular Prime Same issue as Gloom. Vauban Vortex/Zephyr Tornado Massive range. CC's enemies for a prolonged period of time. Much like the disruptive nature of Strangledome, though slightly less automated on its own. Displaces all enemies to a point. Not a hell of a lot of gameplay to be had. More disruptive on defense-orientated missions and Interception. There are other abilities I can highlight (Cataclysm + Stasis, Soundquake, Discharge, Avalanche, Blazing Pillage, Chaos, even abilities such as Ensnare and Irradiating Disarm, to an extent), but it essentially boils down to certain abilities having forms of cc that are too effective for too long/often in too great an area. I wish to make it clear that I use many of these abilities and enjoy them being in the game, As such, I do not believe an adequate solution to addressing these abilities, is to render them ineffective - most are a part of a frame's identity and playstyle and rendering them moot means destroying a part of that frame's identity and playstyle, as well as the balance tied in with the frame, resulting in the game becoming more monotonous and generic - the problem isn't that these abilities result in enemies being cc'd, it isn't enemies being affected by them... the problem is how effective the forms of cc are for a prolonged period of time over a large area. That is what needs to be addressed. Overguard did not do much to alleviate the disruptiveness of these types of abilities the vast majority of the time, as it did not really address the disruptiveness adequately on the vast majority of enemies. Cc immunity on enemies has also resulted in imbalances pertaining to frames, and other aforementioned problems. Instead of giving some enemies immunity, I suggest either addressing the abilities individually (which is not very efficient and would require addressing mechanics/feaures beyond the ability itself), or implementing a good cc adaptation system as I've outlined in other threads, in which builds focusing on effectiveness, range and/or duration still have value for players, so building into those categories will still be beneficial, but addresses the overall prolonged effectiveness of these abilities. I'd be happy to branch out on what an excellent system would entail and even be willing to become a temporary part of the team to help ensure a proper system is implemented, if a suitable offer can be agreed upon. The system as found on Demolishers is rather poor and systems as found in some other games is lacking due to the difference in game mechanics. The system can be applied to enemies at higher levels of play, where the more extreme builds are usually encountered due to further progression of player power (eg SP, Archon Hunts, some Sortie missions), so that those who enjoy the feeling of power cc builds can bring need not be affected lower levels of difficulty (such as base Star Chart). Proper implementation would allow for play at higher levels to become more engaging, diverse and interactive, allow for teamwork in this co-op game to have more value if so desired by DE and allow for overall replayability of missions to be greater. In addition, it grants DE the option of removing cc immunity on many enemies, mitigating the aforementioned problems cc immunity brings with it, whilst ensuring these enemies, including bosses, remain engaging and aren't cheesed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cute_moth.npc Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 I agree that these kinds of skills make missions Extreme dull but they are a core part of those Warframes.. I really like Molecular Prime when it's set up to make enemies zoom at me, Speedva is my friend for fun! I just leave the squad if someone is making things too boring. Stuff like Strangledome and Vortex is really good at that it is true ^^; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrySpear Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 When I'm in the mood to bring a CC frame to public I have never had anyone got mad or think I'm disruptive, the people I encounter rather efficiency and speed than sitting in a mission longer than they have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunderthefirmament Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 How did Limbo not even get mentioned? Oh, right. He died. Sorry. I forgot. Edit: My bad. Stasis + Cataclysm did warrant a mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 20 minutes ago, LSG501 said: If you hate stuff that much maybe it's time to play a different game.... I don't hate it. I use some of it and like it. Doesn't make me blind to me being extremely disruptive to my teammates though. I'm also not blind to how the current unchecked power of cc has resutled in a degradation of the game. Do you like having enemies be immune to cc? Do you like that play against Eximus and some cc-immune bosses is pretty much the exact the same over and over and over regardless of the frame chosen? I don't. It is a wasted opportunity for increased diversity, engagement and replayability. I'd much rather see cc have some effectiveness against enemies that are currently immune to cc, even if that effectiveness or the time of effectiveness is diminished, whilst ensuring the removal of cc-immunity doesn't result in the fight becoming a slow-paced, unengaging encounter. 14 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said: I agree that these kinds of skills make missions Extreme dull but they are a core part of those Warframes.. I just leave the squad if someone is making things too boring ^^ Unfortunately my play with these frames has led to others leaving missions. We can't deny the disruptive nature higher level builds bring to the table, nor should we ignore the negative impact the immense power of certain cc-abilities has eventually led to. You argue these kinds of skills are a core part of those Warframes and I hope you read that I agree in my OP - I want to see them remain an integral part of play, at all levels, but due to the current power of these skills, we have a situation in which these core elements are completely invalidated against some of the stronger enemies in mission. To you pose the same questions as the player above: Do you like having enemies be immune to cc? Do you like that play against Eximus and some cc-immune bosses is pretty much the exact the same over and over and over regardless of the frame chosen? I don't. It is a wasted opportunity for increased diversity, engagement and replayability. I'd much rather see cc have some effectiveness against enemies that are currently immune to cc, even if that effectiveness or the time of effectiveness is diminished, whilst ensuring the removal of cc-immunity doesn't result in the fight becoming a slow-paced, unengaging encounter. 29 minutes ago, CrySpear said: When I'm in the mood to bring a CC frame to public I have never had anyone got mad or think I'm disruptive, the people I encounter rather efficiency and speed than sitting in a mission longer than they have to. Yeah, same arguments were made for AoE and why it shouldn't be nerfed... To you I will pose the exact same questions as I did to the other two above: Do you like having enemies be immune to cc? Do you like that play against Eximus and some cc-immune bosses is pretty much the exact the same over and over and over regardless of the frame chosen? I don't. It is a wasted opportunity for increased diversity, engagement and replayability. I'd much rather see cc have some effectiveness against enemies that are currently immune to cc, even if that effectiveness or the time of effectiveness is diminished, whilst ensuring the removal of cc-immunity doesn't result in the fight becoming a slow-paced, unengaging encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 11 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said: How did Limbo not even get mentioned? Oh, right. He died. Sorry. I forgot. 47 minutes ago, Silligoose said: There are other abilities I can highlight (Cataclysm + Stasis, Soundquake, The abilities in bold are Limbo's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunderthefirmament Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 2 minutes ago, Silligoose said: The abilities in bold are Limbo's. Ah, my bad. Thanks. I edited my post to reflect my error. I think it's insightful to call out DE's design philosophy and how unevenly it is applied. I don't agree with all of your claims, but I will say that I think Helminthed Gloom was a massive mistake, and should receive some changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 8 minutes ago, Silligoose said: snip I can't post what I think because I'd probably get moaned at by the mods.... Nothing else needs to be nerfed, just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean you can speak for everyone else. Seriously at the rate people are jumping on the 'nerf bandwagon' we're going to need a completely new game just to satisfy all the nerfs.... All I'll say is you'd hate my silent gloom banshee which has never had another player complain about it....that literally stops enemies moving AND slows them down lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AoN-CanoLathra- Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 CC was already greatly nerfed by the addition of Overguard and the new exemi that have it. It doesn't need even more of a nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cute_moth.npc Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 26 minutes ago, Silligoose said: Do you like having enemies be immune to cc? As a CC player, I don't actually really mind that there are CC immune enemies because I feel like choosing this path is choosing a game that has some intentional interaction and change of strategy depending on the enemy being faced which is sort of more fun than what it was before when everything was just CC'able and literally every enemy in a mission was just a floating / stunlocked shape and the only real enemy variety was different HP bars you had to wear down after CC. Play against enemies that were not immune to CC was also literally the same thing over and over only it was interaction free as well because the enemies could not do anything. Even with a stacking resistance, it only takes me a few seconds to get rid of one and it would not make a lot of difference between a stacking resistance and no immunity in my mind when I think about how interacting with them usually works but what kind of interaction were you thinking of? I feel like my issue less that there are CC immune enemies and more that: 1. Regular star chart is way to dull to ever want to play again But.. 2. Overguard at high levels (Steel Path) becomes extreme and CC frames with no damage boost may struggle with Eximus It's not impossible to overcome that and have fun in Steel Path, but I feel like I end up crutching on some really specific stuff like the extreme burst damage of Twin Grakatas or the massive single hits of something like Sporelacer because Overguard really is too strong for an un boosted Warframe to deal with at times when you need to do something fast like stopping an Eximus from capturing a tower unless picking the most powerful gear? I would personally like them to work on making Operator the rock-paper-scissors Eximus answer they initially said it would be by picking a much more appropriate damage boost and possibly look at reducing how aggressively Overguard scales over time.. Eventually it just pushes you to use damage boosts, ironically lowering the difficulty and doing the game design no favours anyways because it starts to choke off variety ^^; This is also kind of painful to say but I literally just find myself really weary of big adjustment proposals because I sincerely do not believe the people on top who make the adjustments like Pablo actually play enough of their own game to understand the adjustments they are doing sometimes.. Void Damage vs. Overguard is sort of just not realistically scaled, They had no clue what the value of "battery" type weapons were when they smashed them into the ground, They reworked single target guns for like.. zero reason.. I just don't have a ton of confidence in game flow reworks right now ;_; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quxier Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 57 minutes ago, Silligoose said: Gloom Gloom allows players to slow enemies by up to 90% in a fairly large area. The gameplay involved in facing enemies that move at 10% normal speed throughout a mission is boring. Having this kind of power available to all frames makes it extremely prevalent and the ability is very disruptive in not only defense-orientated missions, but missions in which more movement throughout a tileset is encouraged/required as well. Everything with huge range can be disruptive. Pick Mesa and everything dies with Peacemaker. Banshee had Earthquake. Xaku with GoL (aside range of guns, range = number of guns = more power) Take gloom with normal range. Enemies outside range still can hit you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 51 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said: Ah, my bad. Thanks. I edited my post to reflect my error. I think it's insightful to call out DE's design philosophy and how unevenly it is applied. I don't agree with all of your claims, but I will say that I think Helminthed Gloom was a massive mistake, and should receive some changes. Feel free to share what you disagree with. There may be other misconceptions we discover, or even common ground (edit: such as common ground on our views regarding the power of Gloom as a subsumed ability). 50 minutes ago, LSG501 said: I can't post what I think because I'd probably get moaned at by the mods.... All I'll say is you'd hate my silent gloom banshee which has never had another player complain about it....that literally stops enemies moving AND slows them down lol You can send me a priv message where you don't need to worry about censorship, if you are worried your wording would get you into trouble here. I don't mind. I wouldn't hate the Banshee build. It isn't even the worst offender. I'm highlighting that certain abilities are disruptive and continued into how DE can address the disruptiveness of cc without having to resort to rendering them moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 8 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said: CC was already greatly nerfed by the addition of Overguard and the new exemi that have it. It doesn't need even more of a nerf. Read my post and look to how addressing mechanics properly can result in nerfs being reverted: 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: it grants DE the option of removing cc immunity on many enemies, mitigating the aforementioned problems cc immunity brings with it, whilst ensuring these enemies, including bosses, remain engaging and aren't cheesed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 35 minutes ago, Silligoose said: Strangledome Khora uses Strangledome and it is GG. This ability combines switching off enemies and automated play, as a simple cast ensures not only the incapacitation of many enemies, but their deaths as well, all the while keeping even more enemies above and beyond the limit of Strangledome occupied with shooting their allies. Extremely disruptive with little gameplay to be found in more defensive-orientated (including Interception) missions. I keep saying that DE should add some drag to grabbed enemies so they don't keep flailing around at mach 2 every time this comes up, but nothing ever changes :( That's the part of the ability that's disruptive, the same as old Tentacle Swarm or Tornadoes, and it's annoying for me playing as the Khora too. Address that like it's been addressed on similar things before and Strangledome would be no different than any other form of area CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 8 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said: As a CC player, I don't actually really mind that there are CC immune enemies because I feel like choosing this path is choosing a game that has some intentional interaction and change of strategy depending on the enemy being faced which is sort of more fun than what it was before when everything was just CC'able and literally every enemy in a mission was just a floating / stunlocked shape and the only real enemy variety was different HP bars you had to wear down after CC. Play against enemies that were not immune to CC was also literally the same thing over and over only it was interaction free as well because the enemies could not do anything. Even with a stacking resistance, it only takes me a few seconds to get rid of one and it would not make a lot of difference between a stacking resistance and no immunity in my mind when I think about how interacting with them usually works but what kind of interaction were you thinking of? I feel like my issue less that there are CC immune enemies and more that: 1. Regular star chart is way to dull to ever want to play again But.. 2. Overguard at high levels (Steel Path) becomes extreme and CC frames with no damage boost may struggle with Eximus It's not impossible to overcome that and have fun in Steel Path, but I feel like I end up crutching on some really specific stuff like the extreme burst damage of Twin Grakatas or the massive single hits of something like Sporelacer because Overguard really is too strong for an un boosted Warframe to deal with at times when you need to do something fast like stopping an Eximus from capturing a tower unless picking the most powerful gear? ^^; I would personally like them to work on making Operator the rock-paper-scissors Eximus answer they initially said it would be by picking a much more appropriate damage boost and possibly look at reducing how aggressively Overguard scales over time.. Eventually it just pushes you to use damage boosts, ironically lowering the difficulty and doing the game design no favours anyways ^^; Implementing a proper system would result in play being diversified - it enables gameplay to move away from a point where play revolves around everything being stunlocked/cc'd for a prolonged time. It moves away from every encounter essentially being the exact same loop with different healthbars one enemies. With a good system implemented, players may even need to weigh their options in whether they actually want immense range, as it may be detrimental to performance, akin to what Banshee players face when using Gloom + Silence, since they don't actually want enemies to be affected at too great a range. Cc-frames usually give up either damage or durability within their core kits for their cc and I believe those core mechanics pertaining to the frame's balance, playstyle and identity should retain some value, even if diminished in certain situations - play against an Eximus, or even a boss, should be more diversified than it currently is. If you decide to play an Archon Hunt with Frost one week and then play with Nezha the next week, the tactics involved should and can, in my opinion, extend beyond the current "tank and shoot and that's it" loop we currently have, despite various frame choices. That's the goal - diversified gameplay as a result of frame choice. As for Overguard and Operators and that update... DE implemented some ideas that, on a fundamental level, ensured they wouldn't reach their stated goals. They gave it a shot. They missed. They can do better if they want. I don't know if they want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 35 minutes ago, quxier said: Everything with huge range can be disruptive. Pick Mesa and everything dies with Peacemaker. Banshee had Earthquake. Xaku with GoL (aside range of guns, range = number of guns = more power) Take gloom with normal range. Enemies outside range still can hit you. Though I did mention Sound Quake (I spelled it wrong though), I thank you for illuminating other abilities you may find too disruptive. Range is indeed one of the three characteristics of Gloom and cc in general, that can lead to it becoming too disruptive, along with the other two characteristics mentioned: Effectiveness and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 5, 2022 Author Share Posted October 5, 2022 24 minutes ago, PublikDomain said: I keep saying that DE should add some drag to grabbed enemies so they don't keep flailing around at mach 2 every time this comes up, but nothing ever changes :( That's the part of the ability that's disruptive, the same as old Tentacle Swarm or Tornadoes, and it's annoying for me playing as the Khora too. Address that like it's been addressed on similar things before and Strangledome would be no different than any other form of area CC. We'll have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 All of those abilities involve Crowd Control. Crowd control by it's nature is there to disrupt enemy actions. If crowd control cannot disrupt enemy actions it is not working. While those abilities do change how enemies behave they don't prevent other players from engaging the enemies if they so choose. When you bring up resonator however, you are actually combining two abilities: Mallet and Resonator. Mallet redirects damage, Resonator is the one that charms enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamingchair1121 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 you forgot wisp motes (health one is fine, its speed and shock that are really annoying) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 5, 2022 Author Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 minute ago, L3512 said: The natural state of public play doesn't gel well with this new idea of "overly disruptive", If I run an exterminate on public with the intention of being really stealthy and slow, than the first person to join is going to disrupt my playstyle, no matter what they bring. Maybe the people with a super narrow semi-autistic way of playing warframe are the problem? I've seen some absolutely disgustingly coloured frames recently, that disrupted my eyes, maybe we should ask DE to change that? This topic should be pretty funny for drawing out the double standards of the anti-AOE crowd though so well done. "Overly disruptive" refers to the impact of mechanics on a broad scale, not a narrow scale - AoE was nerfed because of the impact it had on other players' play on a broad scale encompassing various mechanics, not because it of the impact it had on sniper rifle enthusiasts. DE should absolutely give players the ability to adjust the colour/brightness as perceived by said player on their screen, so that they do not get bombarded with overly disruptive visual effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 5, 2022 Author Share Posted October 5, 2022 11 minutes ago, Drasiel said: All of those abilities involve Crowd Control. Crowd control by it's nature is there to disrupt enemy actions. If crowd control cannot disrupt enemy actions it is not working. While those abilities do change how enemies behave they don't prevent other players from engaging the enemies if they so choose. When you bring up resonator however, you are actually combining two abilities: Mallet and Resonator. Mallet redirects damage, Resonator is the one that charms enemies. As per the OP, it is not merely about cc being disruptive, but the extent to which certain abilities can be disruptive. It is the same as with AoE - the issue wasn't the mechanic that is radial AoE and that mechanic being disruptive, but the extent to which it was disruptive. You are correct with regards to Mallet and Resonator. Resonator is the main cause for being overly disruptive in my opinion, for reasons mentioned in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitMeHarder Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 I quite enjoy being a God amongst "vat rats". Not every game needs to conform to the same formula, I like the diversity Warframe brings. 2 hours ago, Silligoose said: Blazing Pillage, Chaos, even abilities such as Ensnare and Irradiating Disarm, to an extent), but it essentially boils down to certain abilities having forms of cc that are too effective for too long/often in too great an area. So now that we've confirmed this consist of every frame in the game (given that something like Blazing Pillage is the baseline (seriously?)), you can go ahead and play a different game now. There's no need to try and appropriate a game that's so obviously divergent from your personal taste. Also, your interpretation of "disruptive" is very askew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Just now, Silligoose said: As per the OP, it is not merely about cc being disruptive, but the extent to which certain abilities can be disruptive. It is the same as with AoE - the issue wasn't the mechanic that is radial AoE and that mechanic being disruptive, but the extent to which it was disruptive. You are correct with regards to Mallet and Resonator. Resonator is the main cause for being overly disruptive in my opinion, for reasons mentioned in the OP. The problem is you are comparing CC being disruptive because it disrupts enemy flow with AOE being disruptive because it was killing everything before any other player can engage with enemies. Those are by no means equivalent disruptions. The CC certainly can make things inconvenient and sure I've thought "daaaaamn this defence will take a long time because we've got a slowva" but that's very different than the thought of "Goddammit I don't even get to see enemies or fire my weapon the entire mission because of little johnny Bramma and his infinite ammo Wuclone, what's the point of playing when I don't get to actually play at all" which I thought (or had similar thoughts about explosives being used pointblank that weren't frame dependent) very often during our current point blank exposion meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 5, 2022 Author Share Posted October 5, 2022 10 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said: you forgot wisp motes (health one is fine, its speed and shock that are really annoying) I haven't played with Wisp in a while, and while I could remember her motes cc'ing quite a few enemies, I couldn't quite remember to what extent her cc applied. Thanks for the additions. There certainly are more that fall under the same type of category outside of cc as well and we may see some more members of the community mention damage abilities. Personally, I don't mind the speed so much, but I certainly understand other players finding it overly disruptive, though not in the sense of it leaving them little to do, but rather because of the impact it has on movement, or attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 5, 2022 Author Share Posted October 5, 2022 27 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said: I quite enjoy being a God amongst "vat rats". Not every game needs to conform to the same formula, I like the diversity Warframe brings. So now that we've confirmed this consist of every frame in the game (given that something like Blazing Pillage is the baseline (seriously?)), you can go ahead and play a different game now. There's no need to try and appropriate a game that's so obviously divergent from your personal taste. Also, your interpretation of "disruptive" is very askew. You would still be able to enjoy being a god amongst the vat rats. There are a number of frames I don't feel are overly disruptive. Ash and Protea are examples, as their basekits don't allow for allow for them to cc a large number of enemies at the same time for a long time to a great extent. 23 minutes ago, Drasiel said: The problem is you are comparing CC being disruptive because it disrupts enemy flow with AOE being disruptive because it was killing everything before any other player can engage with enemies. Those are by no means equivalent disruptions. The CC certainly can make things inconvenient and sure I've thought "daaaaamn this defence will take a long time because we've got a slowva" but that's very different than the thought of "Goddammit I don't even get to see enemies or fire my weapon the entire mission because of little johnny Bramma and his infinite ammo Wuclone, what's the point of playing when I don't get to actually play at all" which I thought (or had similar thoughts about explosives being used pointblank that weren't frame dependent) very often during our current point blank exposion meta. It is not about inconvenience at all. It is about the extent to which certain abilities affect gameplay for others. How much of the game are you really playing if you are doing a mobile defence mission and enemies that approach the objective get snagged by a Strangledome and those who aren't, are busy shooting their allies? How about a Zephyr that has the room on lockdown thanks to Tornado? Your game boils down to shooting a tornado. The vast majority of gameplay is bypassed because of one ability, for the duration of the mission. How much of the game are you really playing if you are playing a survival mission and enemies are running straight past you to go shoot a Resonator? Not much. People were whining about Wukong despite Wukong disrupting gameplay less than some other frames - the disruptive impact someone like a Vauban, Limbo, Zephyr, Khora, or anyone with high strength Gloom, can have on the game of teammates is far greater than the disruptive impact a Wukong player has had. Let's not pretend Wukong was able to shut down enemies or the game to the same extent other frames can, because his kit simply didn't allow for it. I get some players enjoy shooting enemies that pose no threat, or enjoy shooting enemies that are permanently incapacitated and rolled up into a neat little ball for them for the vast majority of a mission. That's fine. I've suggested that option remain on the table, but try to consider the positive impact on gameplay we could have if DE used a proper system to address cc and was able to step away from mechanics such as cc-immunity on enemies and was able to present enemies that have different forms of resistance (not immunity) to cc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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