The Inaros rework to root for

[(XBOX)RookXCastle]

personally, i think replacing all of his abilities is a stretch to be sure, designing new mechanics solely for him is too much as well.

his passive could be fixed(at least to me) by making it so that each sand shadow restores 10% health on death, rather than going into a coffin.

his one could be changed to toxin damage, with a status chance, removing the life steal, on death while under effect summoning a shadow.

his two could be turned into an aoe life-steal, dealing toxin damage.

his three i’m not sure about, it needs work but i’m unsure what to do about it.

his four could remain largely unchanged, however instead of a recast, it would be more of an auto retaliate with corrosive status, using 2% of the armor buff each hit.

as for stats, health could be reduced slightly, while boosting base armor to the 300-450 ish range

[bangarang35]

On 2023-04-22 at 1:50 AM, (PSN)bobdlly15 said:

These changes to Inaros would definitely get me to play him again, especially the changes to his passive which overall didn’t help in higher level content, and his 2 actually being able to play a support role and no longer being chained to an annoyingly long animation depending on your max health and health lost forcing you to slow down your gameplay.

 

Valid points for sure. That slow gameplay on his current kit is not how you should be expected to play warframe. Appreciate the support and glad you liked it.

 

 

[bangarang35]

On 2023-04-24 at 7:53 PM, Batmann105 said:

Honestly, looking through this stuff it's definitely unique. I do like that instead of just compensating for power creep, it's bringing in modern ability conventions; like abilities that are more about mechanics and therefore versatile than damage damage damage. Plus, there's better synergy. I think my only qualm (if it even counts as one) is that some of the proposed abilities have a lot going on, although that's based on comparisons to other decently prevalent/recent warframes.

Other than that, solid rework 👍

 

Thanks glad you like it. Like I've said to other players, I really encourage you guys to just sit and think about the sheer amount of mechanics in a Warframes kit currently. Stayanx has several mechanics in just one ability right now. Inaros has more than 8 mechanics currently in his 2. Yet, his 2 is still pathetic right now. It's not about the number of mechanics it's about the overall power being put forward by the whole package. I definitely understand why many people think this though. Again, thanks for the support. 

[Dulcamara]

Hippity hoppity, i've been spotted by Inaros's biggest supporter in region chat. 

Abilities look great, the reliance on Hp has been holding him back for most of the players. This would def help with bringing diff styles of play when there is less of a limitation on what Inaros can do. 

Dune looks fun by Force of nature is the better one, easy to use and unique enough to work with. A bit wary of the speed since so many players speedrun/vault through the level but I'm open to see how things go.

When/if this rework comes thru, I can finally dust my spinny boy off and set him free from Hijack duties lol

Keep up the good work bangarang35 👋

 

[Ragnafiro]

I started WF in Feb 2019 and backed by over 10,000 hours into Warframe. Level cap endurance runs are a thing I done solo countless amount of times, mainly to stress test dozens of meta/strong frames to their limit while retains as much of their authentic playstyle *cough, Inaros spamming Vazarin's Protective Dash, Rolling Guard, and Martyr Symbiosis for invulnerability weavings and 1 second health gating, cough*. With that bit of where I came from aside, my criticisms on your proposed Inaros' rework are as follow:

"Inaros uses health as the currency to utilize abilities. Inaros cannot go below 1 health by activating abilities."

Solid start.

On 2022-10-10 at 8:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

Feature 2) Inaros gets health gating as part of his base design without the need to call it a passive, just like all other warframes have a form of health/shield gating. Every 2500 health will become a new health bar. Inaros becomes a sand mummy making him completely invulnerable for 2 seconds each time a health bar with a max of 2500 is depleted, including the final health bar at 1 health prior to death. The sand mummy form still allows Inaros to utilize all of his capabilities. Invulnerability on his last health bar will trigger at 500 health so he can use an ability to potentially heal. Inaros is required to refill a health bar to max after it is completely depleted and wait 90 seconds in order to trigger the invulnerability effect again for that respective health bar. Health bars at a lower health value must regain their invulnerability first before a higher value health bar's invulnerability can be triggered again. Example: health bar at 5000 must regain invulnerability before 7500 health bar can use invulnerability. The invulnerability effect of each health bar shall not suffer the 90 seconds cooldown penalty if Inaros uses abilities to go below each respective health bars boundaries. The invulnerability effect removes all status effects. As a visual suggestion, it may be better to simply have vertical tick marks side-by-side above a single health bar in order to show how many health bars are active or maybe small coffins on the health bar to show each health gate milestone.

 

To put it simply...

Inaros's health are separated into "partitions". The first partition closest to 0 HP will contain 500 HP, while further partition will contain 2500 HP.
Each time a partition is completely empty from an instance of direct or DoT damage, all excessive damage don't go to different partitions and you get 2 seconds invulnerability, CC cleanse, and "Sand Mummy" buff, akin to shield gating's 1.3 secs invulnerability. Unlike shield gating that requires 4 seconds of not taking damage and full base shield to get back that 1.3 seconds, a partition need to be completely full and always be on a 90 seconds cooldown, that's...really punishing considering in endurance, any direct instance of damage will completely take out a partition with the cooldown may not be justified for decent uptime once you run out of partition's invulnerability, but that's my verdict so far. Also nice QoL that using abilities don't trigger the 90 seconds cooldown. (Assume I have like 10K health meme build, that's a total of 8 seconds invulnerability uptime and varying of 90 seconds downtime, sounds bad compare to Nidus's passive of infinite 5 seconds health gating loop by just doing Nidus things with no downtime to justify his active gameplay)

On 2022-10-10 at 8:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

Passive - Inaros' abilities can overheal his max health to create an overhealth bar(s). Every 2500 regular health Inaros has as part of his max health will allow him to make an overhealth bar of 2500. Once the overhealth bar(s) are created then Inaros increases his total armor value via scarab armor, which is now a passive mechanic instead of an ability mechanic. The armor increase of the first overhealth bar of this new scarab armor is 750 armor. After being created, each additional overhealth bar grants an additional 250 armor a piece. Overhealth bars of 2500 have the sand mummy invulnerability effect and the same requirements to activate the invulnerability as listed in key feature 2. Only enemy damage can lower overhealth bars, and there is no bonus armor decay effect. The bonus armor granted by each respective overhealth bar remains fully intact as long as an overhealth bar has not been fully depleted. Visually, overhealth bars could be tick marks of a unique color directly beside the normal health bar tick marks or they could use small coffins icons in a different color as health gate milestones for the overhealth bars.
 

So...

The maximum cap of Inaros's overhealth pool is equal to his health pool minus 500. First overhealth bar gives 750 armor, and further overhealth bar gives 250 armor instead. Inaros only lose armor bonus if his overhealth partition is completely depleted. Overhealth partition has the same effect as normal health partition, both pros and cons. Twice the invulnerability windows lol, but still very finite unfortunately. (I assume that the overhealth partition is still cucked by 90 seconds cooldown?) (Yeah, that sounds like S#&$s like Magus Repair will top off maxed overhealth easily when starting a mission lol)

 

For ability clarity's sake, I recommend that you list out the abilities stats similar to how warframe.fandom.com do, as an example:
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Magnetize?so=search
Wiki listed out Strength, Duration, Range, and Misc to see how the numbers performs and what stats it scales, then the rest be descriptive as you can normally.

On 2022-10-10 at 8:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

Ability 1- costs 2% max health- no change to normal version except finishers heal Inaros for the normal amount but will overheal him for 250 when this ability's healing exceeds max health. If used inside of ability 4, then Inaros gets double range, an extra 5 second duration, and will blind/stagger enemies behind surfaces or with their back to Inaros as well.
--------------Augment mod 1-Dessication's Curse: Blinded enemies killed by finishers have 100% chance to become a sand minion and blinded enemies Inaros kills by any other way have a 25% chance to become a sand minion. sand minions do 2x damage and always have higher aggro pull than Inaros. Allows 3 minions to be created by default without mods. Every 2500 max health allows an additional sand minion to be created. Minion life scales with duration.

 

Abilities with cone AOE coverage and/or the need to aim in a specific direction is an inferior form of AOE compare to radial AOE, so the reward output better be justified for that shortcomings. With whatever synergy with Inaros 4 has that I haven't read yet as of typing this, I propose that it becomes a radial AOE instead of two opposite cones. In real missions can get hectic and for most smooth brain Inaros players and all else, the last thing they want is to perfectly aim in front and back of them for optimal use. Radial > all else that don't work. Also healing may be a bit too low for newer Inaros players and for veterans? They don't really care for Inaros 1's healing as they're stacked with Arcane Grace and/or Magus Repair.
Augment: Make that includes Parazon too. 2x Damage unneeded cuz AI blows unless they have massive AOE of damage and/or CC. Otherwise perfect, no issues as the higher AI aggro alone already made me pick up the augment if this rework is real.

On 2022-10-10 at 8:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

Ability 2 Dune- costs 13% health- Activated where Inaros aims it. This ability scales with range, efficiency, duration, and strength mods. This is an 6.5-meter rotating whirlpool quick-sand trap that lasts for a duration of 5/7/11/15 seconds depending on the ability rank.

--------Mechanic 1: All enemies who enter the whirlpool automatically sink into quick-sand causing them to flail in panic and therefore disabling any other actions by them, similar to Devour. Enemies in the whirlpool are slowly pulled to the center of the whirlpool. Once enemies enter the whirlpool, then they cannot escape it unless the ability ends. Enemies are vulnerable to player damage while under the effects of this ability.
---------Mechanic 2: Enemies are lured into the whirlpool because of a bright light at the center.. The bright light is actually a giant glowing scarab sitting at the center of the whirlpool. If Inaros is actively using ability 3, then the glowing scarab will become surrounded by a sand tornado too that lures enemies into the whirlpool faster. The lure effects range is 20 meters without mods.
----------Mechanic 3: The glowing scarab constantly leeches life from enemies in the dune. Allies, not Inaros, will heal for 10/15/20/25 health per second while in dune's whirlpool. Allies heal scales with ability strength. Inaros will self-heal for  (ability cost x 1.5) as max health/overhealth percentage once the ability ends.
-----------Mechanic 4: if dune is used inside of an active ability 4, then dune is empowered. Empowered dune will automatically be placed at the center of ability 4's sandstorm thus luring enemies into ability 4 as well. Inaros will heal for a double ability cost as max health/overhealth percentage once the ability ends.

 

So a stationary passive slow pull-in soft CC ability until they gets to the center then it's a hard CC, similar to Vauban 4. Increase AI aggro on said deployed CC to "lure". Allies gets passively healed except for Inaros but Inaros gets an instant burst of heal once the ability ends. And synergy with 4 means it will reposition into the center of Inaros 4 and higher heal per second. Overall, being a passive CC with solid numbers alone made it nothing worth complains about, similar to Gyre 1/Protea 1/Vauban 4/etc. 

On 2022-10-10 at 8:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

Ability 3 Force of Nature- costs 10% max health- Inaros becomes enraged and surrounds himself with a sand tornado for a 3/3.5/4/5 seconds without mods when this ability is activated. The animation, range (4/5/6/7.5 meters without mods), and damage (200/300/400/500 slash without mods) from his current ability 3's tornado is fine. This ability scales with duration, efficiency, strength, range, and sprint speed mods. Since the damage is so low and doesn't even phase level 30 heavy gunners, I still consider this a level 0 damage frame according to my model.

------------Mechanic 1: This sand tornado form reduces all damage to Inaros by 10%, and blocks crowd control effects. The damage reduction cap with mods for the unempowered sand tornado is 40% which is achieved at 400% ability strength.
------------Mechanic 2: The sand tornado moves at 1.7 sprint speed without mods.
------------Mechanic 3: enemies touched by the sand tornado faint from dehydration and fall for a default 6/7/8/9 seconds based on ability rank without mods. This cc effect must last longer than the sand tornado's duration so Inaros has a chance to attack enemies when leaving the tornado
------------Mechanic 4: Inaros heals for 7% max health/overhealth when the ability ends The formula for the heal in this mechanic is: ability cost x 1.5 = heal amount.
------------Mechanic 5: If this ability is used inside of ability 4, then sand tornado's damage reduction will increase by a capped 10%, and the sand tornado heals Inaros for double the ability cost as max health/overhealth when the ability ends.
 --------------------Augment mod 2 (Exilus mod): Inaros becomes a slender sand mummy for a capped 3 seconds after being airborne or rolling causing attacks to pass through him, but the effect has a 10 second cooldown. Inaros does get this effect while using ability 3. It could be cool if he had streaks of sand trailing behind him or if there were clouds of sand around him while the effect was active.
----------------------Augment mod 3: no change to elemental sandstorm

The core issue of Inaros 3 as regarded as one of the worst ability in WF not mainly because of numbers or nuances, but a single design: restricted opportunity costs. It's why abilities like Yareli 2/Voruna 4/Styanax 4/Revenant 4/Nyx 4/Hildryn 4/Grendel 3/Atlas 4 Rumbled augment are either barely mediocre at best and horrendous at worst, with rare outliers that are Titania 4/Sevagoth 4/Mesa 4 are successful that their tradeoff do worth the reward (fastest frame in the game, one heavy attack and pop shadow's 3 to one-tap SP demos level cap despite the sluggish movement, and Mesa being a 50m LOS insta-kill turret). These abilities force you to take on different "form", limited to no form to use your weapons and/or mobility (hell, even spoiler mode prior to the touch-up of Yareli) for very questionable reward for their intended purpose compare to the alternatives. So unless being at Inaros 3 allows him to retains his mobility and weapon usage OR the nuances and numbers are skyrocketed to justified it, Inaros 3 is the ability to auto-subsume off and as for the nuances and numbers are shown:
10% base is far too low, 90% is ideal for normal content, 99% is for endurance due to how enemies' scaling are, 400% strength is an absurd amount to ask for on a frame who already want range and survivability, more useful aspects of his kit and a 40% is far too low due to how DR are valued most exponentially. Slightly faster sprint (less restrictive mobility, but still restrictive), hard CC on contact (barely any distinctive from his 1 and 2), and if it synergize with his 4, then the damage reduction becomes a base of 20% instead of 10% if I'm reading it right? Then 80% for 400% strength is absurd still without a meme build. Exilus augment a built-in Rolling Guard and actual augment still trash.

VERDICT: AUTO-SUBSUME OFF (treating it like Grendel 3, pure meme ability that I bother to type this much for it lol)

On 2022-10-10 at 8:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

Ability 4 Sand Storm: costs 25% max health- Inaros manipulates large quantities of rushing sand to protect his team and empowers his abilities. let there be a very large AoE type of dome (16 meter radius without mods) that simulates a sand storm. Inaros can move around freely in this dome. The ability stays active in the location Inaros activated the ability for a fixed 20/22/25/30 second duration, depending on ability rank, once cast. Range, efficiency, duration, and ability strength scales with mods for this ability. Its main purpose is to induce the real dangers of a sandstorm against Inaros’ enemies. The ability will activate and be centered on Inaros' location.

------------Mechanic 1: The sandstorm should impair the enemy's vision. With the impaired vision, Enemies inside and outside of the dome suffer a 10%/20%/30%/35% accuracy reduction for enemy projectiles aimed at targets in the dome. 90% accuracy reduction is the cap which is reached at 250% ability strength.
------------Mechanic 2: all enemies inside of the sandstorm are blinded/staggered for the first 3 seconds of the ability leaving them open to finishers.
------------Mechanic 3: The sandstorm heals Inaros by 1%/2%/2.5%/3% max health/overhealth per second without mods regardless of his location.
------------Mechanic 4: Inaros taunts all enemies while ability 4 is active. This does not interfere with the lure effect of Dune. So enemies will attack Inaros even while marching towards the whirlpool.
------------------------Augment mod 4: Ability 4’s taunt will also redirect fatal damage on allies to Inaros.
------------------------Augment mod 5: Negation swarm doesn't change except the drain will be 75 health/overhealth per stat proc prevented so the effect remains active.

So it's Inaros 3...but NOT being a literal sand beyblade? Already a W, similar vibe to Zephyr 4. -Accurary isn't an ideal CC that is demanded as a large radial damage from a Bombard/Napalm/Nox/etc. are still dangerous at a certain level, but I don't know how potent a 90% -Accurary is as we never have that kind of CC in a large quality, so it's questionable. Three seconds stagger/blind, is it refreshable as long they stays in his 4? +AI aggro and more health regeneration. Solid everything else.

 

OVERALL:

1. There is a question that I left out unsaid until now so because of how oversaturated Inaros in the CC department in a meta with Overguard, my question is this to decide if Inaros will be good or bad:

Which Inaros's CC abilties CAN affect Overguard?

Ever since the introduction of Overguard and DE's sheer lack of competence to see it through completely, apparently CCs that affect Overguard are valued to shut down mainly SP Eximus and Thrax, especially hard CCs. 

If none of Inaros's abilities can deal with Overguard, then either he have to take a subsume ability with anti-Overguard nuance and be a one-trick CC frame, which kills any versatility he has in a meaningful way OR be a worse CC frame compare to anyone that can use breach surge/Muzzle Flash/silence/Rhino 4/etc.

 

2. Oversaturation of healing (CC department is reasonably varying enough). with so much gears that gives +health regeneration with Magus Repair being the highest offender for the best percentage heal per second for himself and other allies in the game by far, the value of heal per second for his abilities overall is not only on the lower side across the board, but more optimized gears no longer need it that much in WF 2023 (*cough, shield gating/Revenant/Vazarin/kill everything to not die in normal content/etc.*). It's not bad to have one health regen tool for Inaros and his teammates by itself, but you have that slapped into basically all into his abilities, which creates redundancy for anything else that isn't the most potent, so focus on remove all heals that isn't the most potent from Inaros's kit and replace with something... different and more that retains the fantasy of his kit (special damage buff that is innovative and force certain modding in a certain way to maximize it, akin to how Voruna 1 works, full defense strip after doing a special gimmick of kit synergy, nuke abilities that scales well after X amount of melee kills, etc. throwing out ideas to increase versatility to compete with the quality of newer frames). 

 

3. There is nothing in his kit address the 90 seconds cooldown of his health gating. This is the most problematic for viability in endurance. If this is not fixed, then he would be in the same viability as Lavos: being forced to use invulnerability weaving via strictly Vazarin and subsume Pillage/Condemn, which #*!%s up any room for real build diversity to be remotely optimal with the rest of mediocre kit. Have melee kills reduce the cooldowns of all active 90 seconds cooldown timers by 4 seconds for each melee kills, so it would takes 22.5 kills to completely refresh a health gate that have been procced non-stop, a reasonable amount for a playstyle that need to be revitalize (*look at Revenant with a Kuva Bramma shooting at his feet and he ends up nuking everything behind 6m wall thick and ignore LOS check and stagger immune compare to melees*).

Inaros's rework verdict: 6/10

Edited May 11, 2023 by Ragnafiro

[Grave.Knight]

I'd probably make healing be based on damage done rather than based on Inaros' max health.

[bangarang35]

7 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

With that bit of where I came from aside, my criticisms on your proposed Inaros' rework are as follow:

"Inaros uses health as the currency to utilize abilities. Inaros cannot go below 1 health by activating abilities."

Solid start.

yep, this should just be a given. Come on DE lol

 

7 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

To put it simply...

Inaros's health are separated into "partitions". The first partition closest to 0 HP will contain 500 HP, while further partition will contain 2500 HP.
Each time a partition is completely empty from an instance of direct or DoT damage, all excessive damage don't go to different partitions and you get 2 seconds invulnerability, CC cleanse, and "Sand Mummy" buff, akin to shield gating's 1.3 secs invulnerability. Unlike shield gating that requires 4 seconds of not taking damage and full base shield to get back that 1.3 seconds, a partition need to be completely full and always be on a 90 seconds cooldown, that's...really punishing considering in endurance, any direct instance of damage will completely take out a partition with the cooldown may not be justified for decent uptime once you run out of partition's invulnerability, but that's my verdict so far. Also nice QoL that using abilities don't trigger the 90 seconds cooldown. (Assume I have like 10K health meme build, that's a total of 8 seconds invulnerability uptime and varying of 90 seconds downtime, sounds bad compare to Nidus's passive of infinite 5 seconds health gating loop by just doing Nidus things with no downtime to justify his active gameplay)

no, the partitions are every 2500 health, first health bar goes from 0 to 2500. You know I've wondered if the 90 seconds was a bit too much. That number may need to go lower. Perhaps 45 seconds would be sufficient for each cooldown of the health gate milestones. Will think it over. When you have multiple health gates 45 seconds doesn't seem too bad. Enough to test you but not so much to baby you. Again, will think it over. Yes, I know it's worse than Nidus passive. I actually made it that way on purpose. Inaros will have higher stats but worse gating that Nidus. but Nidus will have the stronger health gating but worse stats. Figured that'd be a fair trade off. My goal is to make Inaros competitive as a tank without making him monopolize the role.

 

 

7 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

So...

The maximum cap of Inaros's overhealth pool is equal to his health pool minus 500. First overhealth bar gives 750 armor, and further overhealth bar gives 250 armor instead. Inaros only lose armor bonus if his overhealth partition is completely depleted. Overhealth partition has the same effect as normal health partition, both pros and cons. Twice the invulnerability windows lol, but still very finite unfortunately. (I assume that the overhealth partition is still cucked by 90 seconds cooldown?) (Yeah, that sounds like S#&$s like Magus Repair will top off maxed overhealth easily when starting a mission lol)

Potential Max Overhealth = Max Health. Arcanes don't work with overhealth. Only ability healing can generate overhealth, which is why most of his kit has healing.

 

7 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

Abilities with cone AOE coverage and/or the need to aim in a specific direction is an inferior form of AOE compare to radial AOE, so the reward output better be justified for that shortcomings. With whatever synergy with Inaros 4 has that I haven't read yet as of typing this, I propose that it becomes a radial AOE instead of two opposite cones. In real missions can get hectic and for most smooth brain Inaros players and all else, the last thing they want is to perfectly aim in front and back of them for optimal use. Radial > all else that don't work. Also healing may be a bit too low for newer Inaros players and for veterans? They don't really care for Inaros 1's healing as they're stacked with Arcane Grace and/or Magus Repair.
Augment: Make that includes Parazon too. 2x Damage unneeded cuz AI blows unless they have massive AOE of damage and/or CC. Otherwise perfect, no issues as the higher AI aggro alone already made me pick up the augment if this rework is real.

So, I really didn't make any mechanical changes to his 1. I just gave it a stat buff via his synergy with the new 4. It's true that moves like radial blind are better for sure. Inaros 1 is still a solid move though. Since it is reasonably effective right now and DE made that ability, I didn't feel the need to really mess with it much. It does include Parazon kills along with any other way of killing enemies are covered in this augment.

Also, the 2x minion dmg is already in the game. I didn't add it, DE did. So, I just left it in because it certainly doesn't make the augment any worse.

 

8 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

So a stationary passive slow pull-in soft CC ability until they gets to the center then it's a hard CC, similar to Vauban 4. Increase AI aggro on said deployed CC to "lure". Allies gets passively healed except for Inaros but Inaros gets an instant burst of heal once the ability ends. And synergy with 4 means it will reposition into the center of Inaros 4 and higher heal per second. Overall, being a passive CC with solid numbers alone made it nothing worth complains about, similar to Gyre 1/Protea 1/Vauban 4/etc. 

Cool, glad to hear Dune got no complaints lol. I've been hearing more people lately say they think Dune is really good.

 

8 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

So unless being at Inaros 3 allows him to retains his mobility and weapon usage OR the nuances and numbers are skyrocketed to justified it, Inaros 3 is the ability to auto-subsume off and as for the nuances and numbers are shown:
10% base is far too low, 90% is ideal for normal content, 99% is for endurance due to how enemies' scaling are, 400% strength is an absurd amount to ask for on a frame who already want range and survivability, more useful aspects of his kit and a 40% is far too low due to how DR are valued most exponentially. Slightly faster sprint (less restrictive mobility, but still restrictive), hard CC on contact (barely any distinctive from his 1 and 2), and if it synergize with his 4, then the damage reduction becomes a base of 20% instead of 10% if I'm reading it right? Then 80% for 400% strength is absurd still without a meme build. Exilus augment a built-in Rolling Guard and actual augment still trash.

VERDICT: AUTO-SUBSUME OFF (treating it like Grendel 3, pure meme ability that I bother to type this much for it lol)

hahaha hey you're not wrong there really could be some fun meme shenanigans going on with this ability lol.

I did boost stats on it though, specifically the move speed. The move speed is now WAYYY higher. So, it can impact many more enemies and possibly be used as a travel move. The other stats are the same though. I considered making the cc effect a grouping pull but honestly that's overplayed IMO. That's such a good version of cc that it's basically the go to form of ccc now, which can take away the unique feeling that each warframe should have. I picked a simple knock down as a final cc effect, which is still effective in its own right.

The DR is low for sure. Honestly that's more of a freebie. Inaros will have lots of health gating, lots of armor, double health, very high accuracy reduction, minion aggro pulling with his 1's augment, and an augment that gives a superior version of rolling guard just for him that works with ability 3. If we gave him high DR too, then I'm not sure if that's overkill. He gets all that other stuff to compensate for the fact that he is pulling enemy aggro with his taunt on the 4 and he drains a good chunk of his health with abilities. The increased move speed on the 3 should mitigate a lot of dmg especially when combined with the accuracy reduction.  Again, the DR is just a nice added touch. You'd be shocked at the range on that 3 too. It's pretty wide.

 

8 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

So it's Inaros 3...but NOT being a literal sand beyblade? Already a W, similar vibe to Zephyr 4. -Accurary isn't an ideal CC that is demanded as a large radial damage from a Bombard/Napalm/Nox/etc. are still dangerous at a certain level, but I don't know how potent a 90% -Accurary is as we never have that kind of CC in a large quality, so it's questionable. Three seconds stagger/blind, is it refreshable as long they stays in his 4? +AI aggro and more health regeneration. Solid everything else.

Not quite, this move is more like snow globe. Instead of a dome that acts as a shield though, it will generate accuracy reduction. Accuracy reduction doesn't directly impact the body of an eximus or any enemy for that matter. However, it does manipulate the effectiveness of all enemy projectiles, including eximus. So, it's kind of like Limbo's stasis to a lower degree. Limbo can't stop the eximus enemy from moving but he can stop all projectile attacks the eximus fires. It'll be similar in concept with the accuracy reduction.

 

8 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

1. There is a question that I left out unsaid until now so because of how oversaturated Inaros in the CC department in a meta with Overguard, my question is this to decide if Inaros will be good or bad:

Which Inaros's CC abilties CAN affect Overguard?

Ever since the introduction of Overguard and DE's sheer lack of competence to see it through completely, apparently CCs that affect Overguard are valued to shut down mainly SP Eximus and Thrax, especially hard CCs. 

Ability 4 can still have an effect on eximus enemies via the accuracy reduction, without having to actually bypass the overguard. Like I said earlier, it's effectiveness would be similar to Limbo's stasis aginst eximus projectile attacks.

 

8 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

2. Oversaturation of healing (CC department is reasonably varying enough). with so much gears that gives +health regeneration with Magus Repair being the highest offender for the best percentage heal per second for himself and other allies in the game by far, the value of heal per second for his abilities overall is not only on the lower side across the board, but more optimized gears no longer need it that much in WF 2023 (*cough, shield gating/Revenant/Vazarin/kill everything to not die in normal content/etc.*). It's not bad to have one health regen tool for Inaros and his teammates by itself, but you have that slapped into basically all into his abilities, which creates redundancy for anything else that isn't the most potent, so focus on remove all heals that isn't the most potent from Inaros's kit and replace with something... different and more that retains the fantasy of his kit (special damage buff that is innovative and force certain modding in a certain way to maximize it, akin to how Voruna 1 works, full defense strip after doing a special gimmick of kit synergy, nuke abilities that scales well after X amount of melee kills, etc. throwing out ideas to increase versatility to compete with the quality of newer frames). 

Since Inaros generates overhealth only with his abilities, I want to make sure players can use all the abilites to heal in order to create that synergy. It'd be crazy boring if you had to spam one move over and over to build up overhealth. Allowing for the heal on all abilities still enables players to effectively build around whatever ability they want and still know they can successfully build his passive and also have sustain. DE actually gave him healing on 3 of his 4 abilities currently though. So, I do think this closer to the devs intended role for Inaros by keep many forms of healing.

 

I thought about armor stripping in the first version of this rework. Although it is effective, that is not thematically correct for Inaros and it's outside of his role. He doesn't have any debuffs in his kit currently. The added dmg is a no go according to Pablo, the man who created Inaros. Pablo said he is against player suggestions to increase Inaros' dmg because that is outside of his intended role.

 

8 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

3. There is nothing in his kit address the 90 seconds cooldown of his health gating. This is the most problematic for viability in endurance. If this is not fixed, then he would be in the same viability as Lavos: being forced to use invulnerability weaving via strictly Vazarin and subsume Pillage/Condemn, which #*!%s up any room for real build diversity to be remotely optimal with the rest of mediocre kit. Have melee kills reduce the cooldowns of all active 90 seconds cooldown timers by 4 seconds for each melee kills, so it would takes 22.5 kills to completely refresh a health gate that have been procced non-stop, a reasonable amount for a playstyle that need to be revitalize (*look at Revenant with a Kuva Bramma shooting at his feet and he ends up nuking everything behind 6m wall thick and ignore LOS check and stagger immune compare to melees*).

I think you're right. will think about what the new cooldown time will be. leaning towards somewhere in the ballpark of 45 seconds for each health gate milestone's cooldown. So if you just had vitality on you would have 2 health gates including overhealth. So that's in the ball park of twenty seconds per gate. I feel like that's fine. This will let players sweat for few seconds hahaha. That's where the skill will come in. My goal is to make this Inaros effective, competitive, and FUN. This guy is gonna become a shot of adrenaline ideally hahaha.

 

8 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

Inaros's rework verdict: 6/10

to each his own. still above average lol. I know a lot of people look down on cc frames now days but I don't think that's fair necessarily. They are still of use even without bypassing overguard, granted this Inaros still impacts all enemy projectiles regardless of overguard thanks to his 4. I think this rework will be pretty fun. Good feedback though. thanks. have a bean lol.

 

[Varagonax]

Health as a resource is problematic in most use case scenarios. One, it actually doesnt solve your inherent problem with building Inaros for health; Percent health doesnt solve the massive health problem like you think it does, because now health builds are even more vital. 50% of 10000 is still 5000, over 50% of 7500 being 3750. You would still max out health in your builds simply because it is more forgiving and gives you more rounds of your casting rotations.

Another issue is that you have equated synergy with direct ability interaction: this is simply not the case. Trinity's energy vampire and her blessing are synergistic because more energy is more healing is more damage reduction, not because casting blessing when an enemy is stunned with EV doubles the DR and health gained. Too many ability interactions make the mechanical workings of a frame complex, and complexity can easily equate to tedium in play. Less is more, as they say. Simple is not always a bad thing. Imagine if Lavo's wasn't built around cool downs and had energy costs to manage on top of needing to mix his potions; he would suddenly be too complex to manage and would arguably be far worse off, and he is already a complex frame where each ability intersects in some way.

Keeping names on brand with the theme of the ability. Dune: a whirlpool of quicksand that houses a scarab that is basically an antlion. Also, try not to make two abilities nearly identical in visual appeal: the next ability is a sand tornado (read: a whirlpool that got up). In actuality, I would argue that force of nature makes a better 2 than his three does: Dune is way better in basically every way.

I feel like maybe your leaning into too many possible tropes and in the end, it might come across as disjointed as Yarelli. To explain: Yarelli is a squishy caster type frame whose kit locks you into one weapon type (secondary's), arguably nerfs her overall mobility to negate her initial squish, encourages her to be up and in her enemies faces despite being a squishy caster, requires multiple presses to maximize the use of her unusually expensive cc, and requires two presses to deal damage with her 4. Yes, she is much better after her retooling, but her kit is just as messy as before. She's a surfboarding, pistol toting mage who wants to get aggressive despite having the athleticism of a half dead squirrel. In this instance, you incorporate sand, sandstorms, quicksand, scarabs, mummies, undeath ect ect and its kinda feeling like its a compilation of every mummy movie ever made... and yes, that also includes Tom Cruises The Mom... I mean Mummy.

Its a good attempt, and I am sure that if this is implemented Inaros would be STRONGER, but I don't think he would be BETTER.

[bangarang35]

OK, I'm not gonna bite your head and will take into account the fact that you have never played Inaros and don't even own him. I strongly disagree with your whole assessment though. I'm not sure you fully understood the ideas I was trying to express though.

17 hours ago, Varagonax said:

Health as a resource is problematic in most use case scenarios. One, it actually doesnt solve your inherent problem with building Inaros for health; Percent health doesnt solve the massive health problem like you think it does, because now health builds are even more vital. 50% of 10000 is still 5000, over 50% of 7500 being 3750. You would still max out health in your builds simply because it is more forgiving and gives you more rounds of your casting rotations.

I never intended for the health as a resource to fix the trap of one current viable build. That issues is remedied by creating more effective abilities which I was able to do successfully. The issues in each ability were addressed and new mechanics were added for fun new features. The overwhelming majority of players I've encountered tend to agree my proposal is definitely a great direction to go in.

 

17 hours ago, Varagonax said:

Another issue is that you have equated synergy with direct ability interaction: this is simply not the case. Trinity's energy vampire and her blessing are synergistic because more energy is more healing is more damage reduction, not because casting blessing when an enemy is stunned with EV doubles the DR and health gained. Too many ability interactions make the mechanical workings of a frame complex, and complexity can easily equate to tedium in play. Less is more, as they say. Simple is not always a bad thing. Imagine if Lavo's wasn't built around cool downs and had energy costs to manage on top of needing to mix his potions; he would suddenly be too complex to manage and would arguably be far worse off, and he is already a complex frame where each ability intersects in some way.

Synergy can be done in a few ways. I use at least two different forms of synergy in the kit. One is a stat boost when the abilities 1,2,and 3 are used inside of the 4 which is simple. Another is build the overhealth bar by healing with abilities which is also simple. That's not different than building stacks with Nidus. It's fine.

 

17 hours ago, Varagonax said:

Keeping names on brand with the theme of the ability. Dune: a whirlpool of quicksand that houses a scarab that is basically an antlion. Also, try not to make two abilities nearly identical in visual appeal: the next ability is a sand tornado (read: a whirlpool that got up). In actuality, I would argue that force of nature makes a better 2 than his three does: Dune is way better in basically every way.

I'm not sure what abilities you think look the same. None of them do. Yes, they all have sand but that's about it. 

 

17 hours ago, Varagonax said:

I feel like maybe your leaning into too many possible tropes and in the end, it might come across as disjointed as Yarelli. To explain: Yarelli is a squishy caster type frame whose kit locks you into one weapon type (secondary's), arguably nerfs her overall mobility to negate her initial squish, encourages her to be up and in her enemies faces despite being a squishy caster, requires multiple presses to maximize the use of her unusually expensive cc, and requires two presses to deal damage with her 4. Yes, she is much better after her retooling, but her kit is just as messy as before. She's a surfboarding, pistol toting mage who wants to get aggressive despite having the athleticism of a half dead squirrel. In this instance, you incorporate sand, sandstorms, quicksand, scarabs, mummies, undeath ect ect and its kinda feeling like its a compilation of every mummy movie ever made... and yes, that also includes Tom Cruises The Mom... I mean Mummy.

This was the paragraph that made me remember not to bite your head off lol. This was not my decision. DE is the one who added all those things into the game. They're all in Inaros kit right now. I just made them better with new mechanics. They are all  elements of Inaros' theme. This is the one that really helped me remember you have never  played Inaros. So no worries. But any disagreements you have on this point would actually be aimed at DE instead of me since I just kept their ideas.

 

I highly encourage you to play Inaros in SP for awhile and then you'll understand Inaros role, theme, and the benefits of the design I've suggested. Nonetheless, thanks for the feedback. Have a bean.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by bangarang35

[bangarang35]

On 2023-04-25 at 2:50 PM, PlenaKey said:

IMO, Inaros isn't in a good place. That said its like D+ ranking for sure. His kit being the hardest thing to use.

His abilities are to slow in that they dont spread fast enough or deal enough damage to be Steel path worthy.

I would LOVE the idea of Health gating for him.

Yep, sandman is in a terrible state. I just got a Yareli and compared her to an Inaros with negation swarm, +10k health, and +1k armor. Yareli was far tankier while she was on her board. If Inaros is being out tanked by even Yareli, who is not even intended to be a tank, then we have a big problem. Health gating is just the beginning of what he really needs in order to be competitive with the other tanks.

 

have a bean. 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by bangarang35

[bangarang35]

On 2023-04-30 at 3:00 AM, ReverseKinetix said:

The author coerced me into reading this in region chat (kidding... mostly), but this is actually a really good rework idea. I especially like the idea of overhealth as it solves his current largest problem of oneshot prevention while also changing his passive to not be completely useless. Giving him more effective cc and healing while also letting him support his team is also incredible and would make him more than a glorified gun holder. Would really like to see changes made to inaros as I bought his prime access back when it released and haven't touched him much since. He's due for some changes.

Hahaha well, I'm glad the coercion was a success jk. Seriously though appreciate the feedback and support. Yep, I am a huge fan of the new passive. It would make his gameplay loop so much more interesting while also making him way more effective.

 

[bangarang35]

On 2023-05-02 at 9:42 PM, (XBOX)FeyAlchemist said:

It's a solid rework definitely think he needs to be tuned down in the sheer amount of stuff in this rework. Overall a good rework idea.

 

Thanks glad you liked it overall. I tell you guys it's crazy how many people have different opinions. There is the camp saying it's bad and weak, then there's the camp who thinks it's too strong and dominant like initailly reworked Wukong. I personally think it's just right. Like I've said many times, it's not about the number of mechanics in an ability. It's about the total power of those combined mechanics. Inaros 2 has at least 8 mechanics but it's still bad. Yet, none of my proposed abilities have 8 mechanics yet they're way more effective. Again, number of mechanics does not equal strength of mechanics. Make sure you noticed the distinction between augment mods and default ability mechanics too. Definitely not the same. Nonetheless, thanks for being a good sport. Have a bean.

 

 

[(PSN)DocVonKleist]

I absolutely agree, Inaros needs love!!!

[(PSN)temp-690730]

I absolutely love this and don't see any flaws 10/10

[bangarang35]

On 2023-05-02 at 10:35 PM, Xemgoa said:

Reading the proposals and by the encouragement to have a look-see on having Inaros take in these new changes to his kit - I think I'm wholly onboard to giving Inaros a good refresher.

 

 

 

On 2023-05-02 at 10:35 PM, Xemgoa said:

With that said, @bangarang35's proposals and the feed back given thus far (as of this posting, for 4.3) seem like they'd give Inaros more of a spotlight and make it fun to play him.

I will say, the new iteration of Sandstorm looks solid, create some area denial that blinds enemies while also replenishing health for himself and allies in the 'dome'.

Also, using his own health as a resources is pretty genius - if Hildryn can do it, why not have Inaros do so instead? His health is used for a specific Sabotage(?) Grineer mission for moving a Fomorian Core to extract, why not capitalize on that for his abilities? Plus, "Health Gating" also seems like a nice step up to further compound how die-hard this frame is suppose to be.

10/10, would recommend the OP's proposals~

Thanks, much appreciated. 10/10 isn't too bad lol. No seriously, glad you liked it so much. I like it just as much. This proposal could truly turn Inaros into an amazing character. He would have some visual flair, become highly effective at his role, and become just a generally more fun warframe. I really did do my best to stay true to the sandman and the devs intended vision for him. This should still fulfill the intended playstyle of Inaros while just bringing him back from the brink of Irrelevance. I'm telling you things are bad for him when Yarleli can do his job better than he can and she's not even supposed to be a tank lol. DE throw the sandman a lifeline already. He's drowning in F tier mechanically right now lol.

Edited June 2, 2023 by bangarang35

[_Unorthodox_]

DE should understand that it's okay to take a break from creating new warframes and go back and update old warframes that don't see much use because of how the game has changed. And a proper rework not just number changes sure some of the newer warframes can get away with this because they are design in the current warframe meta/speed of the game but the older warframes show their age just by the passives they have and ability icons resolution it's honestly sad that these cool idea/concept aren't being used to their full potential.

This fan rework idea has a lot of effort put into it, with the addition to the replies and feedback, this shows that the player base cares about these issues the game has.

[TM20K]

I've got a few ideas of my own that would move more towards the pharaonic aesthetic that Inaros has, which would make him kinda "cursed" like Revenant, but something more wrath than misfortune for crossing a line, to bring him into the same bracket with current frames

Passive: Pharoah's Malice: Inaros spends a percentage of his health in place of energy (25 Energy = 10% health). As Inaros bleeds out, his spirit leaves his body behind in a Sarcophagus, giving him a 25% reduced bleedout time where he must kill 10 enemies or die, he has access to his weapons, however deals 30% less damage (calculated as a faction modifier) in this state and has reduced maximum health during it. Allies can revive Inaros through his Sarcophagus. Inaros gains 3 seconds of invulnerability when falling to 25% health, coming back when he gets above 90%

Thoughts: I wanted to make something similar to Sevagoth but a bit less restrictive and still somewhat hard to do in high level content due to Inaros' lacking damage, since he doesn't have an ability that outright kills like Exalted Shadow's 2, this should be pretty hard to achieve, which is fine as Inaros is meant to be a tank and not go down often.

1: Desiccation: I wouldn't change this too much, just add a small damage modifier that scales with strength and max blast stacks that affect even Eximus enemies to simulate disrupted vision from having sand in the eyes. This would cost 10% of Inaros' health and have massively reduced healing compared to current, to prevent Inaros from stacking his Scarab Armor too quickly.

Augment: Mostly unchanged, I actually like this one, just up the duration on it a bit so it's in line with abilities like Enthrall

 

2: NEW ABILITY: Living Tomb: Inaros curses an enemy within a 25 (Range increases this) meter range to become a living tomb for their comrades, in a 3/6/9/12 (Range increases this) meter radius around them enemies fall into a sandtrap, being pulled into the target and taking 20/30/40/50% (Strength does not increase this) of the damage dealt to the target by Inaros, if the enemy dies under this effect, Inaros heals 15/20/25/30% (Strength increases this) of his max health, giving half the effect to allies in affinity range, this would cost 30% of Inaros' health. Nullifiers free enemies from the sandtrap, however cannot cleanse the target itself of the cursed effect.

Augment: Pilfered Mausoleum: Enemies killed INSIDE of the Living Tomb have a 20/30/40/50% chance to drop twice the rewards, checked at the same time as the other Pilfering mods.

Thoughts: I feel this will add some late game crowd control and power to Inaros without putting him too high in either department, I wanted it to function like a weaker Magnetize, lacking the explosion and persistence after the target dies, forcing Inaros to recast it. Giving the players another Pilfering augment, though one with less power as Strangledome and Swarm due to the ability of having more than one area affected would be a nice way to incentivize running range builds on this frame, while needing them to still have decent strength to keep juggling the effect.

3: REWORKED ABILITY: Sandstorm: Inaros surrounds himself in a sandstorm, decreasing enemy accuracy by 15/20/25/30% (affected by strength) in a 10/15/20/25 (affected by range) meter radius around him, dealing 100/200/300/400 (affected by strength) Impact damage to them per second in half that radius. The Sandstorm persists for 15/20/25/30 seconds after casting. This would cost 25% of Inaros' health, to allow him to give support to his allies and make defending objectives easier. Nullifiers creat safe areas from the Sandstorm.

Augment: Elemental Sandstorm: Enemies within the Sandstorm suffer from any non-damaging elemental effects on Inaros' melee (Viral, Magnetic, Radiation, Cold, Blast, and Corrosive), the ability gains -60% efficiency.

Thoughts: Inaros' Sandstorm was a funny ability but with Caliban's Razor Gyre it feels redundant to keep it the same spinning move it was, I wanted to make something that gives him a supportive edge similar to Valkyr's Warcry where it's fairly useful but not strong enough to justify running the frame on its own. I wanted to make the augment a huge powerhouse to build around for those who want Condition Overload/Galvanized setups.

4: Tuned ability: Scarab Armor: Inaros sacrifices his health as a toggled cast, similarly to Harrow's Thurible, and converts it to armor at a 10% rate (unaffected by mods), capping out at 6,000, by consuming 60,000 health, extra armor, he loses a 10% of current portion every time he health gates, and gains status and knockdown immunity upon reaching 4,000 armor. No longer has the Scarabs surrounding Inaros deal damage, though the corrosive proc remains. Inaros' spirit does not benefit from this ability. Inaros loses 3% of his current stack each time it blocks a status or knockdown. Inaros will lose armor built up over time similarly to Nidus' Mutation Stacks while Nullified.

Augment: Negation Swarm: Inaros becomes immune to enemy abilities (Anything stopped by Banshee's Silence), however, loses 5% of his Scarab Armor each time one is negated by this ability (limit of once per ability instance every 6 seconds).

Augment 2: Persistent Swarm: Inaros' immunities from Scarab Armor have a 30/25/20/15 (unaffected by stats) second cooldown each, however, he no longer loses armor due to health gating or Negation Swarm.

Thoughts: Scarab Armor is Inaros' tanking claim to fame and I want him to be similarly tanky to frames like Rhino, Nezha with his halo up, and Yareli on Merulina, however having to work for such power as his base stats are far more merciful than theirs, for the augment I thought it would be great if we had another frame that could ignore Eximus abilities similarly to Banshee while still having to be aware of them due to their overall increased threat compared to normal enemies.

 

Overall thoughts: I always felt Inaros was a cool-looking do-nothing frame since all he really has in the current gamestate is being a tank in the same game as frames like Valkyr, that are literally invincible when they want to be, and Rhino, who gets a huge damage buff by pressing 3, I wanted to make him a bit more rounded and have late-game scaling similarly to Nidus or Saryn, while trading the insane damage potential they have for being extremely bulky, as a quest frame that isn't always available due to Baro's exclusivity, and requiring a mastery rank, I wanted Inaros to be something special that rewards players with a strong tank frame for having an active play style and the execution to cash in on it properly, while still having an inhibiting mechanic to his stacking like Nidus' Undying. I compare Inaros directly to Nidus as they are both gimmicky frames that don't have shields, however Nidus far outshines Inaros due to having strong abilities such as Larva in his hands, while Inaros simply has high base stats and the ability to make one of them much higher while dealing small damage with his abilities (aside from Finishers he gets from Desiccation, which take time, but ignore armor and deal massive damage). The goal of this theoretical rework is to make Inaros a more active frame and give him a classic horror theming of being a Pharoah that maliciously curses those who are near it.

This rework would also give Inaros some build options, from a highly offensive build that juggles his Living Tomb ability for spread damage, to a range and duration build that yields some nice crowd control, to retaining his classic base stats build with the reworked 4 giving him flat armor that potentially gives him the best unconditional boost of Effective Health in the game, should he be able to stack up to it, similarly to Nidus' massive effective power strength from Mutation stacks.

 

I don't think this would make Inaros anywhere near best frame in the game territory, as frames like Gauss and Volt still exist, but it would be a huge improvement, similar to what Excalibur got when he was reworked. He would also likely be a much better tank due to having a massive flat armor boost that allows him to reach huge effective HP territory.

 

I feel there's a lot of directions you could go with this frame while still keeping his theming in tact as well as his identity.

 

Edit: For the Power Budget I'd give him something like this

Survivability

00-*

This concept has Inaros retaining his base stats but spending his health to get anywhere special, which naturally decreases his survivability, however if he gets in an endless mission that lets him stack his Scarab Armor, it gets extremely strong.

Damage

0--

This concept has Inaros with three abilities that deal damage, however they all have stipulations, his 1 requires the time to go into melee finisher, his 2 has a fairly low single target to AoE conversion compared to things like Magnetize, but doesn't allow AoE double dipping, and his 3 just has very low numbers. This concept won't nuke maps any time soon. His bleedout also actively reduces the damage he deals by a large margin.

Team Healing

0--*

While his numerical healing is very high on his 2 due to having high health, he doesn't have any way of keeping his allies on high health for long, especially if he wants to stack up Armor.

Crowd Control

00-

He does have Crowd Control abilities, however they are very limited in nature, mostly lowering enemy accuracy, with anything hardstopping not having mass targetting, so I wouldn't put him even on the level of frames like Frost.

Team Buff

---

Buffs? What buffs?

Debuffs

0-*
Enemy accuracy suffers a lot but that's not exceptionally valuable, he needs to spend an augment slot and not subsume off his 3 to make anything noteworthy happen in this department

Team Utility

---

Inaros is built mostly for solo play, with extremely limited team utility that mostly takes form in him being hard to put down.

Edited June 6, 2023 by TM20K
Edits are mostly to fix phrasing and oversights

[TM20K]

With the last post I made being said, I think Inaros' 2 and 3 are the biggest problems in his kit, they do very little for their energy cost and time investment and just don't feel like they function with how the rest of the frames play, I feel removing them altogether for other, better fitting abilities for the game would be the best move

For Bangarang's concepts, I like the 2 concept a lot, it reminds me of Antlion dens, where they'd lure in their prey to a deadly trap inside the sand, the 3 however, being kept as a particularly bad ability feels adverse to how some recent frames were designed, and is still begging to be subsumed off, though bad abilities need to exist for there to be good abilities.

[kapn655321]

On 10/10/2022 at 9:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

[...] None of Inaros' abilites will cost health per second or else they will conflict with the passive.

Caveat that Helminth abilities with energy drain should disable at 1hp, unless otherwise having break-points per 'health-gate milestone'.
 

On 10/10/2022 at 9:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

[...] overhealth bar(s).

If overhealth would function anything in the code like over-guard, that being bugged would need to be fixed before they could implement this. Worth noting.
 

On 10/10/2022 at 9:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

--------------Augment mod 1-Dessication's Curse: Blinded enemies killed by finishers have 100% chance to become a sand minion and blinded enemies Inaros kills by any other way have a 25% chance to become a sand minion. sand minions do 2x damage and always have higher aggro pull than Inaros. Allows 3 minions to be created by default without mods. Every 2500 max health allows an additional sand minion to be created. Minion life scales with duration.

I like the # of sand minions scaling with health!

 

On 10/10/2022 at 9:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

Ability 2 Dune- costs 13% health- Activated where Inaros aims it. This ability scales with range, efficiency, duration, and strength mods. This is an 6.5-meter rotating whirlpool quick-sand trap that lasts for a duration of 5/7/11/15 seconds depending on the ability rank.

 

--------Mechanic 1: All enemies who enter the whirlpool automatically sink into quick-sand causing them to flail in panic and therefore disabling any other actions by them, similar to Devour. Enemies in the whirlpool are slowly pulled to the center of the whirlpool. Once enemies enter the whirlpool, then they cannot escape it unless the ability ends. Enemies are vulnerable to player damage while under the effects of this ability.
---------Mechanic 2: Enemies are lured into the whirlpool because of a bright light at the center.. The bright light is actually a giant glowing scarab sitting at the center of the whirlpool. If Inaros is actively using ability 3, then the glowing scarab will become surrounded by a sand tornado too that lures enemies into the whirlpool faster. The lure effects range is 20 meters without mods.
----------Mechanic 3: The glowing scarab constantly leeches life from enemies in the dune. Allies, not Inaros, will heal for 10/15/20/25 health per second while in dune's whirlpool. Allies heal scales with ability strength. Inaros will self-heal for  (ability cost x 1.5) as max health/overhealth percentage once the ability ends.
-----------Mechanic 4: if dune is used inside of an active ability 4, then dune is empowered. Empowered dune will automatically be placed at the center of ability 4's sandstorm thus luring enemies into ability 4 as well. Inaros will heal for a double ability cost as max health/overhealth percentage once the ability ends.

Dune feels over-tuned. For instance, it has 2 forms of CC, healing, and aggro priority, it would be a cheaper and vastly better version of Beguiling Lantern. Granted, Beguiling Lantern could use some reconsideration imo. As it stands, this would function like Zephyr's Airburst vacuum (25 energy) + Titania's Beguiling Lantern (75 energy) + Garuda's Blood Altar (50 energy), but in a "50 energy," class slot.. though, a longer/slower airburst, better lantern, and lesser blood altar, respectively.

I'd personally suggest the lure aspect be on an augment. Default, I'm thinking more like Nidus' Larva.. if it doesn't engage with a target on cast, it fizzles out, while the augment could make it persistent and lure targets.

Side note to state explicitly, I do hope to be able to cast this during his 3. One of my biggest problems with Inaros, is not being able to cast abilities as a dust devil.

 

On 10/10/2022 at 9:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

Ability 3 Force of Nature- costs 10% max health- Inaros becomes enraged and surrounds himself with a sand tornado for a 2.5/3/3.25/3.5 seconds without mods when this ability is activated. The animation, range (4/5/6/7.5 meters without mods), and damage (200/300/400/500 slash without mods) from his current ability 3's tornado is fine. This ability scales with duration, efficiency, strength, range, and sprint speed mods. Since the damage is so low and doesn't even phase level 30 heavy gunners, I still consider this a level 0 damage frame according to my model. The exit animation for the in-game version of this ability takes to long and needs to be removed.

------------Mechanic 1: This sand tornado form reduces all damage to Inaros by 10%, and blocks crowd control effects. The damage reduction cap with mods for the unempowered sand tornado is 40% which is achieved at 400% ability strength.
------------Mechanic 2: The sand tornado moves at 1.7 sprint speed without mods.
------------Mechanic 3: enemies in range of the sand tornado faint from dehydration and fall for a default 6/7/8/9 seconds based on ability rank without mods. This cc effect must last longer than the sand tornado's duration so Inaros has a chance to attack enemies when leaving the tornado
------------Mechanic 4: Inaros heals for 7% max health/overhealth when the ability ends The formula for the heal in this mechanic is: ability cost x 1.5 = heal amount.
------------Mechanic 5: If this ability is used inside of ability 4, then sand tornado's damage reduction will increase by a capped 10%, and the sand tornado heals Inaros for double the ability cost as max health/overhealth when the ability ends.
 --------------------Augment mod 2 (Exilus mod): Inaros becomes a slender sand mummy for a capped 3 seconds after being airborne or rolling causing attacks to pass through him, but the effect has a 10 second cooldown. Inaros does get this effect while using ability 3. It could be cool if he had streaks of sand trailing behind him or if there were clouds of sand around him while the effect was active.
----------------------Augment mod 3: no change to elemental sandstorm
 

I could take or leave the dehydration prone function, considering the kit already enables blind finishers. More important, if dehydration is going to be the result of thematic exposure to a sand based attack, it should be somehow consistent across his kit.

This healing return might encourage spamming it to heal back up, which doesn't quite right. Might want to consider healing %max/s per target affected, scaling with strength.

 

On 10/10/2022 at 9:27 PM, bangarang35 said:

Ability 4 Sand Storm: costs 25% max health- Inaros manipulates large quantities of rushing sand to protect his team and empowers his abilities. let there be a very large AoE type of dome (16 meter radius without mods) that simulates a sand storm. Inaros can move around freely in this dome. The ability stays active in the location Inaros activated the ability for a fixed 20/22/25/30 second duration, depending on ability rank, once cast. Range, efficiency, duration, and ability strength scales with mods for this ability. Its main purpose is to induce the real dangers of a sandstorm against Inaros’ enemies. The ability will activate and be centered on Inaros' location.

 

------------Mechanic 1: The sandstorm should impair the enemy's vision. With the impaired vision, Enemies inside and outside of the dome suffer a 10%/20%/30%/35% accuracy reduction for enemy projectiles aimed at targets in the dome. 90% accuracy reduction is the cap which is reached at 250% ability strength.
------------Mechanic 2: all enemies inside of the sandstorm are blinded/staggered for the first 3 seconds of the ability leaving them open to finishers.
------------Mechanic 3: The sandstorm heals Inaros by 1%/2%/2.5%/3% max health/overhealth per second without mods regardless of his location.
------------Mechanic 4: Inaros taunts all enemies while ability 4 is active. This does not interfere with the lure effect of Dune. So enemies will attack Inaros even while marching towards the whirlpool.
------------------------Augment mod 4: Ability 4’s taunt will also redirect fatal damage on allies to Inaros.
------------------------Augment mod 5: Negation swarm doesn't change except the drain will be 75 health/overhealth per stat proc prevented so the effect remains active.

I love the taunt! Would like to explicitly make that an Exilus augment.

Inaros' 4 wasn't bad, though as you mention later in the post, chaining it can become a problem. Personally, less that range, I felt the problem was with duration. Always wished that had something like Cataclysmic Continuum or Eternal War, where the duration could be added onto or renewed in some way. Your suggestion here is interesting, and either would be an improvement!



Final thoughts: I'd give this rework a strong 8/10. There are a few little snags and personal preference things, but overall this would be a vast improvement over his current kit. Great work to you and your friends for putting this together!

[(PSN)Angus_McSix_]

This rework would be a solid 7/10 for me. But I do like Inaros the way he is, especially with the healing arcanes. But the 7/10 would only be because it would make his abilities useful. Inaros is already very unique with just health, armor and healing arcanes. He is also very useful as is against nullifiers as his abilities don't have much use (I know fissure missions spawn too many nullifiers and it can get annoying). It's been a while since I last used Inaros plus I'm not good with feedback in general but I'd be able to give quality feedback if I actually played him a little more to see how he is personally against higher level enemies).

[bangarang35]

On 2023-05-03 at 10:09 PM, (XBOX)RookXCastle said:

personally, i think replacing all of his abilities is a stretch to be sure, designing new mechanics solely for him is too much as well.

I have to push back on this point. Warframe is a game all about unique builds and playstyles. One of the big complaints about recent frames is that they do not feel very unique. It is very important for each warframe to have its own unique features and mechanics. Otherwise, they're all the same with just slightly different visuals.

 

On 2023-05-03 at 10:09 PM, (XBOX)RookXCastle said:

his one could be changed to toxin damage, with a status chance, removing the life steal, on death while under effect summoning a shadow.

This will not fly at all with Pablo. Like I've stressed many times, Pablo is on video saying he  is against making Inaros a dmg dealer.

 

On 2023-05-03 at 10:09 PM, (XBOX)RookXCastle said:

as for stats, health could be reduced slightly, while boosting base armor to the 300-450 ish range

tis blasphemy you speak lol. lowering his health is not an option. He needs more tankiness. You shouldn't be getting rid of any of his tankiness when every other tank is far more tankier than him. Even Yareli, a nontank, is FARRR tankier than Inaros. Subtracting his tankiness when he is so far behind is just not an option.

 

 

Nonetheless, appreciate the feedback.

 

[(PSN)Oscourge]

A strong rework idea 8/10 or 9/10.

I really like the use of his greatest weakness, his health, and turning it into his engine for his kit.

The only thing I'm uncertain about is the health gating mechanic, it could be quite unbalanced with helminth abilities, maybe I'm just skeptical.

Maybe gaining lives or scarabs as a meter (for consumption to gain health, with a cooldown) for health gained past a certain threshold could be better in the worse case scenario, having it tied to a number might be as broken as hildryn with rebuild shields before it got nerfed or with energy siphon. Like I said though I'm just skeptical, all in all though it's an awesome rework and I hope he at least gets a look at at some point.

Edited June 15, 2023 by (PSN)Oscourge
Just remembered how broken hildryn is with energy siphon too.

[bangarang35]

On 2023-05-09 at 9:38 PM, Dulcamara said:

Hippity hoppity, i've been spotted by Inaros's biggest supporter in region chat. 

Abilities look great, the reliance on Hp has been holding him back for most of the players. This would def help with bringing diff styles of play when there is less of a limitation on what Inaros can do. 

Dune looks fun by Force of nature is the better one, easy to use and unique enough to work with. A bit wary of the speed since so many players speedrun/vault through the level but I'm open to see how things go.

When/if this rework comes thru, I can finally dust my spinny boy off and set him free from Hijack duties lol

Keep up the good work bangarang35 👋

 

HAHAHA spotted indeed. I was concerned about making him another volt too, and decided to limit that via the low duration of the ability. Glad you liked it overall though and we'll all be looking forward to playing this in the future. I was thinking the devs may put out word for an Inaros rework  at TennoCon since Inaros Prime has his gear currently being sold in the Bazaar around the same time. Hopefully, I'm right lol

 

 

[bangarang35]

On 2023-05-10 at 10:55 PM, Grave.Knight said:

I'd probably make healing be based on damage done rather than based on Inaros' max health.

I wouldn't recommend this path since Pablo doesn't Inaros to be a damage dealer which means his healing would be limited. Limited healing for the kit I designed would destroy the whole thing unfortunately since he uses health as a resource for abilities activation and taunts the enemy team with the new 4. Nonetheless, thanks for the feedback.

 

On 2023-05-24 at 11:20 PM, (PSN)DocVonKleist said:

I absolutely agree, Inaros needs love!!!

You know he does. Help the sandman DE!! Inaros deserves to be good. It's time for the rework.

 

[bangarang35]

@(PSN)temp-690730

 

10/10 you say. I'll take it haha. Appreciate the support. We're gonna get the sandman help. Just gotta be persistent.