Simple Faction TDM Suggestion

[(NSW)XaviTheWanderer]

I don't understand why this idea seems to have been skipped over, but a tried and true method of getting players is simple TDM.

Like... Why don't we have a mode where you are either a team of Grineer or Corpus fighting each other? Choose a faction at the beginning of a season or have weekly resets, whatever. Only usable guns are those made by said factions. Over the shoulder third person is fine too. Look at Fortnite. Gears of War. Mass Effect.

It may not be frame on frame combat, but it will get more players to try conclave, which leads to more players on the other modes.

[Tyreaus]

24 minutes ago, (NSW)XaviTheWanderer said:

I don't understand why this idea seems to have been skipped over

Because PvP is controversial in Warframe. Controversial means it's hard to justify allocating resources to development. That's why Conclave as-is doesn't receive much attention, even for basic maintenance. And something like faction PvP requires even more attention, thus resources, than that. Just to start: all the weapon and player balance would have to be done up again. Then abilities, perhaps classes, UIs for those selections and for weapon selections...and then the entire controversy of whether it should replace existing Conclave or add on to it, which would change how the UI gets sorted out and where it might integrate. (Conclave console, Starchart...)

It's also not like this is the only idea that's been both repeated and skipped over throughout the years. There's been multiple threads about faction PvP, Necramech PvP, K-drive races as PvP, PvEvP, and bringing back variant modes. None of those—not even the last one, the code for which I think still exists and just needs to be enabled—have flown. This concept is but one.

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

21 hours ago, LeoniePiggy said:

I honestly want them to rework conclave as a whole into Faction vs. Faction and completely take away the utterly unplayable and unbalancable gameplay that is Warframe vs. Warframe combat. IMO after the new war this just seems like the logical thing to do with the tools they very obviously have.

I honestly want them to rework PvE as a whole and completely take away the past 5 years of trash content that they've added. IMO after the new war this just seems like the logical thing to do with the tools they obviously don't have.

[Tyreaus]

On 2022-10-25 at 4:59 AM, LeoniePiggy said:

I honestly want them to rework conclave as a whole into Faction vs. Faction and completely take away the utterly unplayable and unbalancable gameplay that is Warframe vs. Warframe combat. IMO after the new war this just seems like the logical thing to do with the tools they very obviously have.

Why?

The UI has room for a 5th tile - can even be tossed to the far left to be the big, main option. Existing Conclave isn't really getting much attention, so it's not like it's a drain on resources. So what's the logical reason to bin it?

[----Legacy----]

On 2022-10-25 at 8:59 AM, LeoniePiggy said:

I honestly want them to rework conclave as a whole into Faction vs. Faction and completely take away the utterly unplayable and unbalancable gameplay that is Warframe vs. Warframe combat. IMO after the new war this just seems like the logical thing to do with the tools they very obviously have.

Seriously, any game feels like an "utterly unplayable and unbalanced" experience when you're not familiar with it and this preception only changes with a mixture of experience and practice. This holds specially true in warframe, where the skill gap between experienced conclave players and those new to the game mode can be insane, even more when we keep in mind that warframe's PvE and its modding system remove any need for the player to actually improve since everything is either a gear check, a knowledge check, or a mixture of both where skill is entirely disregarded.

[Tyreaus]

23 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

This holds specially true in warframe, where the skill gap between experienced conclave players and those new to the game mode can be insane

Skill gap and performance differences, what with shield-gate-bypassing headshots turning a small valley between high-skill and low-skill TTKs into the flipping grand canyon.

_{Going to bite my tongue on that tirade but good lord, among all the other issues Conclave has, that sort of thing does not help.}

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Skill gap and performance differences, what with shield-gate-bypassing headshots turning a small valley between high-skill and low-skill TTKs into the flipping grand canyon.

_{Going to bite my tongue on that tirade but good lord, among all the other issues Conclave has, that sort of thing does not help.}

I'm pretty sure that "the ability to bypass shield gate by landing headshots" falls within the "skill" category; just like "how to disengage, when to do it and what route to use for it" is pure knowledge, reason why i didn't see the need to specify either.

Edit: I won't deny that the skill and knowledge gap is an issue, however, it's something that can't be fixed without an influx of new players, which turns the overly repeated "NoBoDy PlAyS cOnClAvE" into a self fulfilling prophecy at this point.

[----Legacy----]

3 hours ago, LeoniePiggy said:

yea, and...?

Why do we have to argue against a more accessable gamemode?

On one hand, "faction pvp" is normally used to talk about generic gameplay. I see no issue with it, except for the part where it always -your post included- comes with the proposal of removing what we currently have which turns out to be something unique.

There's plenty of generic tactical shooters for people who want kahl gameplay pvp, but there aren't many pvp games with warframe's 3d freedom of mobility, no need to get rid of it just because bad players refuse to improve.

[Tyreaus]

10 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'm pretty sure that "the ability to bypass shield gate by landing headshots" falls within the "skill" category; just like "how to disengage, when to do it and what route to use for it" is pure knowledge, reason why i didn't see the need to specify either.

Edit: I won't deny that the skill and knowledge gap is an issue, however, it's something that can't be fixed without an influx of new players, which turns the overly repeated "NoBoDy PlAyS cOnClAvE" into a self fulfilling prophecy at this point.

Right, triggering headshots falls within the skill category. I'm more talking about the amount by which the game rewards said skill.

With or without shield gating, headshots have always provided a bonus, thus rewarded skill. That hasn't changed.

My consternation is more about how much that's rewarded. You want new players to feel they've got a chance to be more than target practice. I.e. to contribute to the game in some way. Yet shield gating increases TTK for unskilled players. So their odds decrease, not increase. The lower those odds, the less likely players are to stick around.

Likewise, I don't think it's a skill / knowledge gap, fundamentally at least. A game like COD has a pretty decent skill gap, but has a broader following than Quake. COD does have elements like "noob tubes" to help new players contribute to a game. Quake is more like Conclave in the "get the kill or get nowhere" mentality.

Similarly, if we looked to CS:GO for an example and took out healing and shield gating—literally just those, changing nothing else—we can get a good increase in the odds a player contributes. On a one-on-one, they might lose encounters one through five, but can win the sixth. Tada, they're having an impact, progressing, contributing, engaging, etc.

(Of course, that's best if they get kill assist credit or acknowledgement of some sort, to account for group deathmatches. Make them feel like they contributed rather than just getting their kill stolen.)

That angle is also, probably, how you'd break that self-fulfilling prophecy. You want players to improve, you have to make them feel like they can. If they feel like they're just a target dummy, well...I haven't been to a shooting range, but I'm pretty sure they don't clock off after a few rounds and boot up Quake. _{Maybe Animal Crossing.}

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

My consternation is more about how much that's rewarded. You want new players to feel they've got a chance to be more than target practice. I.e. to contribute to the game in some way.

I won't deny that headshots seem to offer too high of a reward, even though one could argue that most of these are just by luck for less skilled players, while those more skilled are bound to get the most out of the headshot bonus depending of how consistent they are hitting these.

Some minor headshot multiplier changes could be a step in the right direction as long as the current per class distinction is kept. The mode as a whole could use some balance tweaks after what was done with the PoE PvE rebalance anyways.

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Yet shield gating increases TTK for unskilled players. So their odds decrease, not increase. The lower those odds, the less likely players are to stick around.

I'm glad to announce that looks like we'll be able to removd shield gating from the equation soon.

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Likewise, I don't think it's a skill / knowledge gap, fundamentally at least. A game like COD has a pretty decent skill gap, but has a broader following than Quake. COD does have elements like "noob tubes" to help new players contribute to a game. Quake is more like Conclave in the "get the kill or get nowhere" mentality.

I think a big part of the issue is how nothing in warframe discourages skilled players from using "noob tubes" to ruin everyone's day.

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Of course, that's best if they get kill assist credit or acknowledgement of some sort, to account for group deathmatches. Make them feel like they contributed rather than just getting their kill stolen.

Some rep for kill assists would be neat, even if it was just half the amount obtained for the actual kill, ngl.

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

That angle is also, probably, how you'd break that self-fulfilling prophecy. You want players to improve, you have to make them feel like they can. If they feel like they're just a target dummy, well...I haven't been to a shooting range, but I'm pretty sure they don't clock off after a few rounds and boot up Quake. _{Maybe Animal Crossing.}

Imo, some balance changes (headshot damage tweaks included), probably reducing the overal ttk a tiny bit, reducing respawn timers, and some evergreen rewards (and better stuff as well) would not only be good things to encourage players to join, but also help to keep them playing. (That on top of bringing back opticor variant and re running the old conclave events)

[Tyreaus]

On 2022-10-28 at 3:45 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

I'm glad to announce that looks like we'll be able to removd shield gating from the equation soon.

Thank freaking goodness.

On 2022-10-28 at 3:45 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

I think a big part of the issue is how nothing in warframe discourages skilled players from using "noob tubes" to ruin everyone's day.

That and the "noob tube" styles—insofar as I know them, at least—tend to be pretty knowledge-restricted. Everyone and their dog can figure out "underbarrel grenade launcher = good". Meanwhile, "you can use Saryn to self-refresh Electric procs which is really good with this Lanka" is pretty obscure. _{And if you mean a different setup as a "noob tube" then, uh, quod erat demonstratum lol.} So not only are experienced players given free reign on the proverbial "noob tubes", but new players are less likely to be using them in the first place.

On 2022-10-28 at 3:45 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

Some rep for kill assists would be neat, even if it was just half the amount obtained for the actual kill, ngl.

I'd take 1/4, tbh. I'm a professional kill-gifter, don'tcha know.

On 2022-10-28 at 3:45 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

Imo, some balance changes (headshot damage tweaks included), probably reducing the overal ttk a tiny bit, reducing respawn timers, and some evergreen rewards (and better stuff as well) would not only be good things to encourage players to join, but also help to keep them playing. (That on top of bringing back opticor variant and re running the old conclave events)

I feel headshots are generally in a good spot (even if, for the game's mobility, I'd just remove them altogether), but would take a reduction of TTK and faster respawns any day. Maybe with an increase in max kill count. We have Quake movement speeds but Halo respawn timers. It feels way too long for the active pacing.

And, speaking of Halo, I'm pretty sure you still have to hit space / jump to respawn faster. But it's some weird 1-2 second delay before the input can be registered. But also, it auto-respawns you anyway, after a longer delay, for some reason? Just, like, let me stare at my dead body for a couple seconds to appreciate my fashionframe and throw me back in there.

[----Legacy----]

5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

That and the "noob tube" styles—insofar as I know them, at least—tend to be pretty knowledge-restricted. Everyone and their dog can figure out "underbarrel grenade launcher = good".

There's some dog races i really doubt could be able to figure that out 

5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Meanwhile, "you can use Saryn to self-refresh Electric procs which is really good with this Lanka" is pretty obscure. _{And if you mean a different setup as a "noob tube" then, uh, quod erat demonstratum lol.} So not only are experienced players given free reign on the proverbial "noob tubes", but new players are less likely to be using them in the first place.

I wouldn't say that self refreshing electric procs is "a knowledge check". Let's call things by their names, that's straight up abusing bugs (one that a friend found entirely by chance, tested and reported right after it was introduced -on The Old Blood update- and will be fixed along Shield Gating and the removal of other bugged weapons, gladly).

5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I'd take 1/4, tbh. I'm a professional kill-gifter, don'tcha know.

Anything would be better than the current 

If it was my choice, i wouldn't settle for any less than 1/3rd of the affinitty.

5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I feel headshots are generally in a good spot (even if, for the game's mobility, I'd just remove them altogether), but would take a reduction of TTK and faster respawns any day. Maybe with an increase in max kill count. We have Quake movement speeds but Halo respawn timers. It feels way too long for the active pacing.

Headshots are on kind of an odd spot to me, though i like the current approach. I'd probably reduce sniper damage but increase their headshot multiplier in order to keep them devastating in the hands of skilled players; while other weapons (mostly autos) could see their headshot multiplier reduced to 1.1 or even lost the multiplier completely.

5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

And, speaking of Halo, I'm pretty sure you still have to hit space / jump to respawn faster. But it's some weird 1-2 second delay before the input can be registered. But also, it auto-respawns you anyway, after a longer delay, for some reason? Just, like, let me stare at my dead body for a couple seconds to appreciate my fashionframe and throw me back in there.

DE has made some weird decisions, i hope they eventually take the time to come to the forums and improve on those ends,  just like Joebuck used to interact with conclave players through this subforum before disappearing.

[standardheadache]

On 2022-10-25 at 7:59 AM, LeoniePiggy said:

utterly unplayable and unbalancable gameplay that is Warframe vs. Warframe combat

Do you remember pre-PoE Conclave? Balance passes were made on the side by a maximum of two team members, probably 1% or less of the company of the company, part-time, and it turned out pretty well. PvE was still the main focus, but if you look at the patches for older weapons like Gorgon or Latron, you can't say that attempts weren't made to balance the mode, nor that those attempts were unsuccessful. After all, these were never controversial weapons. I'd say they weren't bugged either, but Latron's augment now doesn't work in Conclave, so there's that.

[Tachmag]

On 2022-10-25 at 5:33 AM, (NSW)XaviTheWanderer said:

I don't understand why this idea seems to have been skipped over, but a tried and true method of getting players is simple TDM.

Like... Why don't we have a mode where you are either a team of Grineer or Corpus fighting each other? Choose a faction at the beginning of a season or have weekly resets, whatever. Only usable guns are those made by said factions. Over the shoulder third person is fine too. Look at Fortnite. Gears of War. Mass Effect.

It may not be frame on frame combat, but it will get more players to try conclave, which leads to more players on the other modes.

Because the only people who want faction vs faction are non-PvP players. Why would DE cater PvP to the players who don't play it rather than the ones who do?

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

Just now, Tachmag said:

Because the only people who want faction vs faction are non-PvP players. Why would DE cater PvP to the players who don't play it rather than the ones who do?

Couldn't have said it any better myself 

[Tyreaus]

On 2022-11-06 at 12:15 PM, Tachmag said:

Because the only people who want faction vs faction are non-PvP players. Why would DE cater PvP to the players who don't play it rather than the ones who do?

Well, OP mentions other modes, so it sure seems the idea is for this to work in parallel with what exists. An addition, not a replacement.

But also, the people who already play PvP ... already play PvP. If the goal is to get more people playing, the existing players aren't the ones to target.

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

But also, the people who already play PvP ... already play PvP. If the goal is to get more people playing, the existing players aren't the ones to target.

I disagree.  You want to focus on what the ppl who actually play pvp want. Rather than appealing and serving the new player base. Pve has done that for years and its turned most the veterans away from the game.  Focusing on the core veteran playerbase is what we need more of. Because those new players are going to be experienced 1 day like us if they keep playing. 

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GameGhost123 said:

I disagree.  You want to focus on what the ppl who actually play pvp want. Rather than appealing and serving the new player base. Pve has done that for years and its turned most the veterans away from the game.  Focusing on the core veteran playerbase is what we need more of. Because those new players are going to be experienced 1 day like us if they keep playing. 

Bold for emphasis.

Yes, getting new players is half the battle; you have to keep them for those new players to matter. But you also can't keep players that don't play. It's not an "either-or" situation: you need consider both entry and retention, and addressing one at the cost of the other is a recipe for shortcomings.

I also feel a need to reiterate "if the goal is to get more people playing". PvE has a problem not catering to veterans in part because it already has a solid playerbase: getting more people playing isn't an issue, both in that it's PvE (so you don't really need a lot of people for, say, SBMM) and that it largely has enough people already. Conclave is at the opposite end in both respects.