Wanted: Shotgun version of Internal Bleeding/Hemorrhage, Amalgam Serration

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

What it says on the title - I'd like an equivalent Mod to Internal Bleeding/Hemorrhage (35% chance to proc Bleed on Impact status, 70% chance if fire rate below 2.5) but for Shotguns. Shotguns feel like they've gotten the short end of the stick in certain ways - the way status and proc damage works makes DoT procs terrible without Hunter Munitions, there's no Sprint Speed+Weapon Stat mod like Amalgam Serration... I'd like to see Shotguns get the same tools so to speak as other primaries.

Shotgun Sprint Speed probably wouldn't have damage, as a direct equivalent to Amalgam Serration - maybe magazine size or reload speed, since the idea is to close in fast and start blasting point-blank. (On the other hand, there's no reason not to have damage for that purpose, so a direct equivalent would also work.) EDIT: I'm definitely leaning towards magazine size here - the limiting factor for most shotguns when closing in and blasting is the number of shots without needing to disengage for reloading.)

[taiiat]

the majority of Shotguns would qualify for the 70% boost, that might be a longshot to expect that. likely either it would not be on the Mod or it would have a lower threshold like 1.0 or something.

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

the majority of Shotguns would qualify for the 70% boost, that might be a longshot to expect that. likely either it would not be on the Mod or it would have a lower threshold like 1.0 or something.

Consider - 1) The lower fire rate is a DPS loss that one generally mods away from, modding shotguns to fire faster and pump out more raw damage, because most shotguns excel at that specific thing. 2) There's 5 (Plasmor/Tenet, Astilla/Prime, Catchmoon) shotguns that proc impact reliably, most of the impact shotguns have either horrible status chance, made even more unreliable by shotgun multishot-status mechanics, or aren't powerful enough to be used in places where bleeding through armor is vital to have.

[CopperBezel]

3 hours ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

Shotguns feel like they've gotten the short end of the stick in certain ways - the way status and proc damage works makes DoT procs terrible without Hunter Munitions, there's no Sprint Speed+Weapon Stat mod like Amalgam Serration... I'd like to see Shotguns get the same tools so to speak as other primaries.

Hunter Munitions is the best DoT on rifles too, though. And we do have the option now of the two Incarnon melees for alternative sprint speed boosts. I have to admit that I've avoided shotguns just a little ever since Amalgam Serration was introduced, but I've really come back around to them recently. Nothing right now really compares to the Corinth Prime or Felarx for giving heavies and minibosses a face full of dead IMO, so it's started to feel like a legitimate tradeoff of speedy vs. heavy loadouts.

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

29 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Hunter Munitions is the best DoT on rifles too, though. And we do have the option now of the two Incarnon melees for alternative sprint speed boosts. I have to admit that I've avoided shotguns just a little ever since Amalgam Serration was introduced, but I've really come back around to them recently. Nothing right now really compares to the Corinth Prime or Felarx for giving heavies and minibosses a face full of dead IMO, so it's started to feel like a legitimate tradeoff of speedy vs. heavy loadouts.

Hunter Munitions is not the only option - it's 30% chance to bleed, while Internal Bleeding/Hemorrhage is 35% w/ 70% if your fire rate is low (hello, some launchers and non-crit bows. Nagantaka too, the non-Prime has mediocre crit chance. I sold it to free up slots at some point, but I did some bonkers Viral/Status Chance/Internal Bleeding build with its innate Impact Proc.)

There's plenty of heavy loadouts that aren't shotguns - the rub here is that shotguns don't have the option of a speedy loadout, while non-shotgun primaries can do both. Most Bows, Snipers, and some Launchers, plus the Phenmor, are good Heavy-killers. Nataruk, which takes Rifle Mods, is my "get beefy enemies dead fast" weapon, and I'd like to mod some of the shotguns I enjoy to fill a similar purpose. (EDIT: It's also just plain weird that the weapon class meant for point-blank blasting doesn't have a sprint speed mod for closing distance.)

[taiiat]

43 minutes ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

Consider - 1) The lower fire rate is a DPS loss that one generally mods away from, modding shotguns to fire faster and pump out more raw damage, because most shotguns excel at that specific thing. 2) There's 5 (Plasmor/Tenet, Astilla/Prime, Catchmoon) shotguns that proc impact reliably, most of the impact shotguns have either horrible status chance, made even more unreliable by shotgun multishot-status mechanics, or aren't powerful enough to be used in places where bleeding through armor is vital to have.

i don't think it's highly common to add Fire Rate to Shotuns - most of them have a Fire Rate that is either fine because it's covered by some other mechanic or the amount of death per Shot doesn't necessitate spamming as much.

Shotguns already have good Damage and Status basically across the board, it's not like they're bad and need one specific Mod to change that (nor would that really be good Modding for one Mod to be a hingepin anyways). so many of the Shotguns getting the boost for free at a 2.5 threshold is... pretty convenient. expect a lower threshold. maybe 1.5, but it'll definitely be quite a bit lower than 2.5.

[NightmareT12]

1 hour ago, LeoniePiggy said:

I know this is off topic but what the actual F is the hype around amalgam serration? O.o

Sprint speed in exchange of 5% damage compared to standard Serration IIRC.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, LeoniePiggy said:

I know this is off topic but what the actual F is the hype around amalgam serration? O.o

Sprint speed is great for running quick missions like fissures. Sprint boost and even Infested Mobility make simply running and rolling very good movement options. Even better than parkour sometimes.

[CopperBezel]

4 hours ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

Hunter Munitions is not the only option - it's 30% chance to bleed, while Internal Bleeding/Hemorrhage is 35% w/ 70% if your fire rate is low (hello, some launchers and non-crit bows. Nagantaka too, the non-Prime has mediocre crit chance. I sold it to free up slots at some point, but I did some bonkers Viral/Status Chance/Internal Bleeding build with its innate Impact Proc.)

Eh, you can't compare those percentages one to one in most cases though, you're depending on those cases of guaranteed impact status. A typical modded weapon might have 60% crit chance, so that's 18% bleed chance with HM. The chance of Impact status effects is normally on the same order as the chance of bleed status effects. Something like the Corinth I mentioned is going to only occasionally get a physical proc in between elemental ones, since the chance is identical to the damage distribution now, with about equal split of impact and slash ones. Turning a third of those impacts into a few more slashes isn't going to be noticeable. Even a weapon that deals mostly impact damage and has a high status chance is still going to be getting it on way less than 60% of hits after elemental damage mods are in play.  

Not saying it's not useful in cases like the Nagantaka, it's just a niche mod that a few guns take advantage of. 

It's also stacked against shotguns if it was available. Shotguns have a lot of pellets and a low status chance per pellet, which means a lot of little chances for status effects, but with the majority of the damage of a shot not behind them. So shotguns are good at stacking statuses like viral or corrosive fast, not so good at DoT - again with the exception of HM, since shotgun crit chance is comparable to that of rifles and the ratio of damage landing on crits is the same no matter how many pellets it's cut into. 

4 hours ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

There's plenty of heavy loadouts that aren't shotguns - the rub here is that shotguns don't have the option of a speedy loadout, while non-shotgun primaries can do both.

Yeah, that part is undeniably weird. I still think it would have been better though for Amalgam Shotgun Barrage to offer something more useful but still different from sprint speed, something you'd hate to lose when switching back to a rifle as much as you hate to lose that sprint speed switching to a shotgun. Seems more in the spirit of amalgam mods.  

And again, you can just power through it now since there are a few more options, if niche ones, for increasing sprint speed.

1 hour ago, LeoniePiggy said:

I know this is off topic but what the actual F is the hype around amalgam serration? O.o

I kinda feel like if you don't value your movement speed there's no explaining it. But for anyone who does, it's basically free and the equivalent of Priming their Rush.

[Traumtulpe]

9 hours ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

What it says on the title - I'd like an equivalent Mod to Internal Bleeding/Hemorrhage (35% chance to proc Bleed on Impact status, 70% chance if fire rate below 2.5) but for Shotguns.

Because of the way shotguns work, this mod would be useless on almost all of them (Tenet Arca Plasmor might be the only exception) - damaging procs in general are.

Basically, if damage procs from status chance are 100% effective on a rifle, they are >200% effective on a beam weapon, and maybe 20% effective on a shotgun.

[Tiltskillet]

I really want the IB equivalent, mainly to indulge my Phantasma altfire fetish.  I'd have fun with it on the Catchmoon primary too.  Here are all the shotguns I could find with forced impact:

Weapon // RoF // note

Arca Plasmor // 1.1 // forced impact only to 14m base

Tenet Plasmor // 1.0 // "" to 29m

Astilla(s) // 4.33 // only on projectile

Catchmoon // ** // usual build will have 3.0 RoF, 2.4 after Crit Decel

Corinth // 1.17 // only on altfire projectile

Corinth P // 0.67 // ""

Felarx // 1.5 // only Incarnon

Phantasmas // 2.0 // only on altfire direct hit, explosion, and cluster bomb explosions

 

 

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

Oh, I'm not denying that Shotgun Hemorrhage will be a niche mod, just as much as it's a niche mod on the rifle and pistol versions - I just want that niche available, and it's currently not. Plasmor/Tenet, Catchmoon, and Astilla/Prime are the ones that get the most benefit from it - Plasmor has guaranteed Impact procs (like Nagantaka for rifles), Catchmoon is basically an auto-Plasmor with different damage types, Astilla procs impact reliably as long as you shoot them directly with the slug.

As for Shotgun Sprint Speed, well, like I said before - non-shotguns have the option of speedy or heavy, or adding speed to a heavy loadout like Nataruk or Tonkor/Kuva, and shotguns don't have that. Open up the option.

[Tiltskillet]

19 minutes ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

. . . and Astilla/Prime are the ones that get the most benefit from it . . . Astilla procs impact reliably as long as you shoot them directly with the slug.

True, but even with Crit Decel it'll be well over 2.5 RoF, and HM propagates to the explosions.  I guess if you're using it as a headshot weapon and only care about ST, the IB mod would be better because that 3x multiplier is so sweet.  But even though I like aiming for headshots, I think I'd always use HM. The potential effect on multiple units is too valuable.  When it's not valuable, I'm probably not using Astilla.

Basically a digression that's not pertinent to the topic, but interesting.

 

[CopperBezel]

29 minutes ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

As for Shotgun Sprint Speed, well, like I said before - non-shotguns have the option of speedy or heavy, or adding speed to a heavy loadout like Nataruk or Tonkor/Kuva, and shotguns don't have that. Open up the option.

One dot of Serration is a trivial cost though. I think of Amalgam Serration as an upgrade rather than an alternative - I don't think there's any tradeoff to be made there. There's more tradeoff between Amalgam and Galvanized Barrel Diffusion, for instance, because they're both upgrades from the standard mod with a trivially lower base value and some big extra, even if most players would still rather have stacking bonus multishot than a longer dash most of the time. Or like Archon vs. Umbral Intensify, where there are niche cases where the Archon version is better, but you have to play in a way that meets its conditions to capitalize on that.

So I don't see Amalgam Serration as adding a choice within rifles, I see it as adding a bonus to rifles in considering your choice of a rifle vs. a shotgun. Shottys just don't get anything comparable in return, since Serration is already equivalent to Primed Point Blank and the revive speed bonus of Amalgam Shotgun Barrage is kinda trivial. I'd really just rather that shotguns had an Amalgam Blunderbuss that granted 15% ability range or 45% armor or something else roughly equivalent in value to a 25% sprint speed boost.

If all shotgun mods and rifle mods were going to be one-to-one the same and the differences between the two classes of primaries were to depend only on the individual guns, why have two sets of mods at all? Just make everything Primary. That'd probably be better than the system as it stands, but less fun IMO than making weird tradeoffs that cascade into other parts of the loadout.

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

19 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

True, but even with Crit Decel it'll be well over 2.5 RoF, and HM propagates to the explosions.  I guess if you're using it as a headshot weapon and only care about ST, the IB mod would be better because that 3x multiplier is so sweet.  But even though I like aiming for headshots, I think I'd always use HM. The potential effect on multiple units is too valuable.  When it's not valuable, I'm probably not using Astilla.

Basically a digression that's not pertinent to the topic, but interesting.

 

I know Astilla isn't getting the low fire rate bonus and HM is the better option for that one, but I was just talking things that proc impact well, regardless.

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

19 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

One dot of Serration is a trivial cost though. I think of Amalgam Serration as an upgrade rather than an alternative - I don't think there's any tradeoff to be made there. There's more tradeoff between Amalgam and Galvanized Barrel Diffusion, for instance, because they're both upgrades from the standard mod with a trivially lower base value and some big extra, even if most players would still rather have stacking bonus multishot than a longer dash most of the time. Or like Archon vs. Umbral Intensify, where there are niche cases where the Archon version is better, but you have to play in a way that meets its conditions to capitalize on that.

So I don't see Amalgam Serration as adding a choice within rifles, I see it as adding a bonus to rifles in considering your choice of a rifle vs. a shotgun. Shottys just don't get anything comparable in return, since Serration is already equivalent to Primed Point Blank and the revive speed bonus of Amalgam Shotgun Barrage is kinda trivial. I'd really just rather that shotguns had an Amalgam Blunderbuss that granted 15% ability range or 45% armor or something else roughly equivalent in value to a 25% sprint speed boost.

If all shotgun mods and rifle mods were going to be one-to-one the same and the differences between the two classes of primaries were to depend only on the individual guns, why have two sets of mods at all? Just make everything Primary. That'd probably be better than the system as it stands, but less fun IMO than making weird tradeoffs that cascade into other parts of the loadout.

Argh, read my original post! I said I'm not really sold on Shotgun Sprint Speed as Speed+Damage (even though you *could* do that). This why I'm thinking Speed+Mag Size. Different mod, different weapon stat, but gives the Sprint Speed. Plus it has a distinct purpose, a role - you can close in fast and have at least 1 shot per enemy in the group, making the most of shotguns being very powerful at close range.

[CopperBezel]

23 minutes ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

Argh, read my original post!

Geez, man, this is the rare case of a civil discussion on the Warframe forums, don't kill the vibe. 

I don't imagine you're looking for notes on said original post, but the difference between Primed Point Blank and Shell Compression that I'd want to emphasize is that Primed Point Blank, just like Serration, isn't really a choice, and Shell Compression is. I can see now that distinction is sort of in there if I squint, but it wasn't obvious the first time. 

"Different mod, different weapon stat, but gives the Sprint Speed" would be a difference of superficial flavor if the mod in question was any mandatory mod like Serration is. It was in my example when I used Blunderbuss, that's why I chose it as a direct opposite to Serration. Here, look at this bit again:

10 hours ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

There's plenty of heavy loadouts that aren't shotguns - the rub here is that shotguns don't have the option of a speedy loadout, while non-shotgun primaries can do both. 

I don't see non-shotties as making any real tradeoff or choice here; non-shotty builds that don't include Serration are rare as hens' teeth. So I honestly thought you meant shotguns should have the opportunity to make the trivial choice of just also having sprint speed like non-shotties do.

More meaningful choices for shotguns sound like fun! More meaningful choices for non-shotties equally so. If that's part of the suggestion you're making, make that explicit. I still wouldn't call that an equivalent to or version of Amalgam Serration, much more an alternative.

But look, the part I'd really be more interested in your response to is the other 90% of what I said, because I understand the urge to have more open-ended modding choices, but personally I'm much more interested in having more interesting choices that actually involve making decisions. Choosing between shotties and not-shotties is a choice, non-shotties get a sprint speed bonus, I think it would be more interesting if shotties got a different but equally appealing bonus. Or ideally make Amalgam versions of everything, only allow one per piece of equipment, and have five different and possibly overlapping bonuses to choose from for each weapon category there.  

10 hours ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

(EDIT: It's also just plain weird that the weapon class meant for point-blank blasting doesn't have a sprint speed mod for closing distance.)

 The first thing you need to get up close and personal isn't speed, it's durability. It would be much weirder if rifles were giving you an armor bonus and shotguns weren't.

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

non-shotty builds that don't include Serration are rare as hens' teeth.

Are hen's teeth more common than you think? :P

(Anyway, G. Aptitude and weapon arcanes often make Serration primaries non-optimal nowadays, much to the consternation of Am. Serration sprint speed fans.)

[CopperBezel]

Some mad bit of manipulation cooked up in a lab that's kinda cool to read about but I want nothing to do with in practice? Yeah, I think that was exactly the right metaphor, actually. 😓

(We've just got to this thing where the melee combo system has been nerfed so hard that it's nearly reasonable not to use a combo build, and instead have a weapon that actually does damage even on the first three guys I attack and isn't giving me anxiety about losing my stack. No way in hell am I going to start using them in rifles.)

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

Geez, man, this is the rare case of a civil discussion on the Warframe forums, don't kill the vibe. 

Yeah, I got kinda grumpy (I get frustrated very quickly when it feels like someone's not understanding what I'm saying)

And you make a fair point about my idea for Shotgun Sprint Speed being more like an alternative to AS than a direct equivalent, since it's meant for a different stat than straight Damage.

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

The first thing you need to get up close and personal isn't speed, it's durability. It would be much weirder if rifles were giving you an armor bonus and shotguns weren't.

Have to admit, I was thinking of this mod largely for tanky frames that aren't naturally very fast/need an ability buff to go fast, and modding your frame for toughness means less space for speed (with the exception of Armored Agility doing both, a real good mod), even more so if you want to have your preferred set of ability improvements and utility/QoL mods also installed.

[RazeLandale]

I think they should address the primary problem that enemy armor is too good and forces everyone to viral/slash to bypasses it entirely and the secondary problem that a lot of status effects suck(And in the case of impact, can be actively detrimental since the stagger makes it harder to land headshots). Hemo's a bandaid fix.

There'd be nothing wrong with amalgam (primed)point blank though. It'd be a good thing for shotguns to be less gated by Baro anyway.

[snoozecruise]

My suggestion is that Amalgam Serration simply be changed to apply to all primaries. I can kinda understand the theme of slower movement for higher powered guns, but Amalgam Serration can be fit on all launcher-type weapons anyways so that theme is already kinda out the window.

As for an impact bleed mod, eh... shotguns already hit so hard, and most with high multishot anyways, so even with a modest amount of crit and "plain" Hunter Munitions, you're already getting immensely deadly slash ticks. I often run corrosive + HM to maintain that high-damage punchy shotgun feel, and even on things that survive the initial hit, the slash ticks are still quite deadly even without viral.

I would LOVE to start running more shotguns but that extra speed is great, especially for people who don't like to reinforce repetitive strain injuries with constant bullet jumping. Maybe adding more ways to encourage healthy play would be a good incentive to add this?