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Limbo Rework... I'll try to be constructive.


KovakAizek
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I will try to be laconic. Most of this comes from my massive play time as Limbo. Most pure CC frame in outdamaging meta is awkward as it is, but pure CC frame that CAN’T control every third enemy in the game is a joke. So, my very bold suggestions for you to judge:

1. Cataclysm should inflate instead of shrinking. That would prevent enemies to stuck at the edge, hopping between dimensions, making it harder to kill from both dimensions.

2. Give Limbo status immunity, while in the rift. May sound OP, but there are certain frames that have it as base kit. It’s stupid to die from sniffing Toxin/Arson Eximus from another dimension. While other caster frames can empower their damage or survivability, Limbo lies bare.

3. Give any damage potential. Limbo blew himself to blueprint-friendly pieces from just one mistake! Why it can’t be a mechanic, that we can turn against enemies? Like, banishing or Cataclysm-ing Surged enemies will give them severe damage. Or, ability to actually damage everything in the rift, including you. Encouraging to get out of safe space for murderous intentions.

4. Some ancient idea about making anything with Null/Cataclysm interaction. Like Hijack null bubble. Or make it possible to shoot Nullifier bubble from the rift, since this omnipotent Corpus technology can put stuff out of rift.

5. Make teammates “ethereal” while banished, give them Xaku amount of evasion while rifted and make ally shots through the rift count, even if it will be it’s own augment.

This whole post was born out of envy for Revenant, who got literal invulnerability to prevent Eximus from shredding his skin, while I need to use Silence just to live in current state of game balance.(Sorry for rant)

With love to Mesa, Limbo main.

Good night, gentlemen.

Edited by KovakAizek
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14 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

1. Cataclysm should inflate instead of shrinking. That would prevent enemies to stuck at the edge, hopping between dimensions, making it harder to kill from both dimensions.

I'm very much in favor of completely scrapping Limbo's kit and starting at zero, but I'll acknowledge that my hopes for him are decidedly unrealistic.  So I like what you've got here.  One of my biggest complaints about Limbo is the changing size of Cataclysm.  The rift is already annoying and disruptive without needing to deal with this will-they-won't-they back and forth at the edge of the Cataclysm.  I'd prefer that its size stay completely constant, but if it has to change then your suggestion is better than what we have now.

 

Almost anything would be, though.  God, he's a mess.

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I just wish we get devil trigger so you can freeze every 3rd enemy for moments

I also wish eximus enemies shield broke faster or the enemy would stay base level, they arent fair other wise. They'll gun down weaker frames almost instantly.

Edit: also yes, growing caty sounds better. 

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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6 минут назад, sunderthefirmament сказал:

God, he's a mess.

Imagine me loving this tophat. Frame that made me stay in game... in such state two years later pains me. All I can hope for is this forum. As i'm being told in reddit, here i have a chance to see my vision come true. Even your "full overhaul" suggestion.

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12 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

1. Cataclysm should inflate instead of shrinking. That would prevent enemies to stuck at the edge, hopping between dimensions, making it harder to kill from both dimensions.

No... this will make issues with interacting with consoles or grabbing loot even bigger as larger areas of the tileset are covered by his Cataclysm. I would be ok with it not shrinking and have enemies just run into it instead of trying to hide or shoot from the outside, also remove the inability to interact with things and gather loot which is one of the ability's down side.

16 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

2. Give Limbo status immunity, while in the rift. May sound OP, but there are certain frames that have it as base kit. It’s stupid to die from sniffing Toxin/Arson Eximus from another dimension. While other caster frames can empower their damage or survivability, Limbo lies bare.

No, he is already unaffected by whats outside the rift and can completely immobilize enemies inside it, why should he get status immunity? Also, Limbo players still need reasons to move instead of just idling inside the bubble in missions as i often see.

21 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

3. Give any damage potential. Limbo blew himself to blueprint-friendly pieces from just one mistake! Why it can’t be a mechanic, that we can turn against enemies? Like, banishing or Cataclysm-ing Surged enemies will give them severe damage. Or, ability to actually damage everything in the rift, including you. Encouraging to get out of safe space for murderous intentions.

Seeing you just recently joined the game and this being your first post, perhaps you should take a look at old (5~6 year old) Limbo gameplay footage? His Cataclysm was extremely powerful some time ago, people would just keep spamming it and nuking the map with it which ended getting him Nerfed. This playstyle is not the kind of thing i wish to see in the game again.

I wouldnt mind his 3rd (Rift Surge) being changed to something that deals damage given its nature being more of a nuisance as it Banishes enemies outside Cataclysm making them impossible to be killed by your Teammates.

31 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

I4. Some ancient idea about making anything with Null/Cataclysm interaction. Or make it possible to shoot Nullifier bubble from the rift, since this omnipotent Corpus technology can put stuff out of rift.

Nullifiers were added into the game for very good reasons and i hope they remain the way they are. Not even Limbo should be imune to their effects. Nullifiers should remain as motives for Limbo players to stay active and step out of the bubble to deal with them.

33 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

5. Make teammates “ethereal” while banished, give them Xaku amount of evasion while rifted and make ally shots through the rift count, even if it will be it’s own augment.

Absolutely not. Dont need to even explain why this would be OP.

34 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

This whole post was born out of envy for Revenant, who got literal invulnerability to prevent Eximus from shredding his skin, while I need to use Silence just to live in current state of game balance.

Envy should never be a reason to have something changed/buffed, i mained Zephyr for years wile the whole community deemed her a useless frame yet i was still having fun with her and excelling in missions, took half a decade for her rework to come and make her great, shes still not immortal, has flaws but is powerful in the right hands and with the right knowledge.

Also, even Revenant will eventually meet the Ban hammer because of this invulnerability of his and if his popularity continues going up.

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Kinda want an incentive to plane-swap often (aside from not being able to pick up loot...). Maybe a Rift Residual effect that lets Limbo and Banished/Rift portal-ed allies keep their 2 energy regen/sec for a while after rolling out.

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2 минуты назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

I would be ok with it not shrinking

Stationary is fine too, honestly.

 

3 минуты назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

No, he is already unaffected by whats outside the rift and can completely immobilize enemies inside it, why should he get status immunity?

Because being oneshotted is not fun..? I know about rolling guard, but if Arson wave hits you without Sure Footed or Hand Spring you are done without chance. Damage reduction from operator won't help too, since Limbo always has active ability. Even without it-Arson forces you to roll into normal dimension to get shredded, since every ability works only with rift. Toxin one is just silly. He just comes close and you die in other dimension. Other Eximus completely fine, though.

 

10 минут назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

Seeing you just recently joined the game and this being your first post

MR 24, two years here, Limbo then was awesome but boring. I returned to him with Angels of Zariman update, and then it was fine and fun. Miserable experience started with Archon hunt, where you have eximus, sentients, Nox all swarm around you. Also, in other gamemodes there is Aurux Moa, special mobs, Fortuna... Then I started Steel Path and experienced four nulls sniffing each other backs.

 

15 минут назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

Nullifiers were added into the game for very good reasons

And Hijack Null bubble does just fine.

 

16 минут назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

Absolutely not

Understandable, at this point i was out of ideas to make him teammate appropriate.

 

16 минут назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

Envy should never be a reason to have something changed/buffed

I understand, yes... but holy hell. Eximus screwed Mesmer skin and Limbo whole kit. What DE did? Buffed Mesmer skin so anyone can have 30 seconds of full invulnerability.

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20 минут назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

i mained Zephyr for years wile the whole community deemed her a useless frame

She is awesome, but not my cup of tea. Flying, almost immortal, engaging in so many ways... but my way is space-bending magician in tophat.Warframe0003.jpg

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On 2022-11-12 at 9:29 AM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Nullifiers were added into the game for very good reasons and i hope they remain the way they are. Not even Limbo should be imune to their effects. Nullifiers should remain as motives for Limbo players to stay active and step out of the bubble to deal with them.

They were added because AFK old Excal/Mag/Trinity were farming focus too quickly when it first came out. It's pretty disingenuous to say that because of DE freaking out over content getting gobbled too fast 8 years ago, Limbo deserves to have no powers at all in every Corpus/Corrupted mission until the end of time unless he's using a negative range build.

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Just now, holdenagincourt said:

It's pretty disingenuous to say that Limbo deserves to have no powers at all in every Corpus/Corrupted mission until the end of time unless he's using a negative range build.

Thats the way you see it, i see it as "Move that butt out of your comfort zone before that Nullie pops your bubble".

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On 2022-11-12 at 6:29 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Envy should never be a reason to have something changed/buffed

While you're right about that, I do think there's an adjacent problem being highlighted here.

 

Limbo's kit is a deal of extremes. Complete invulnerability, in exchange for nigh-on complete non-participation. Limbo becomes untouchable, but in exchange, he can't use his weapons, he can't pick up loot, and he can't interact with objectives. Back when Limbo was originally released, this was a somewhat fair deal, even if the drawbacks rendered him an extremely niche and tricky-to-play frame. But overall, it was a relatively fair balance of drawbacks and benefits.

But that was back when Frost and Rhino were the de facto tanks for the party, and it was somewhat difficult to keep your health and energy up without a Trinity in your party. 

In the years since, we've seen many new releases and changes that have shifted away from that state. Shield gating, Voidmode, new defence mods, new releases that can bolster a party's defences, now Archon Shards to boost Armour... Mesmer Skin is being highlighted as an example, but it's far from the only one. Protea is effectively unkillable so long as she pays attention to her shield grenades. Wisp makes everyone significantly harder to kill with the Vitality mote. Inaros reigned for a while as a hypertank, Wukong is tremendously durable himself with high armor, on-demand invulnerability, rapid healing, and death defiance. Even Styanax can cause repeated shieldgating for the entire party, provided there's enough enemies around for Rally to take effect. Invulnerability is even a key component to Harrow's kit. 

While envy is not a good reason to have something changed or buffed, in light of all the changes that have been made to make warframes tankier, and tankier warframes, the weight of invulnerability in terms of balance has decreased massively.

So in terms of the balance deal that was forged on Limbo's release, well... That deal is looking way less fair now. Yes, Limbo is unkillable in the rift. But how much is that worth when most frames are borderline unkillable anyway? Limbo's great benefit has just deteriorated in value over time. Eximi now being able to completely ignore the rift has put a massive dent in an already severely weakened benefit. 

Conversely, the drawback of Limbo's rift, that non-participation thing, got one alleviation in the form of Helminth, but was also made worse somewhere along the line with his rework, where he was banned from pulling people into the rift while inside it. 

 

The point is that with the changes that have been made to the game over time, while the drawback of the rift stayed the same, the benefit was both cut back, and deteriorated in value.

So Limbo went from Niche to... Well, what's the point, really?

The rift is now a disadvantage. You restrict interaction of yourself, or with the enemies within the rift, and the one benefit it was supposed to offer has been suspended by the introduction of overshield eximi. So what was already a pretty awkward deal when it was first launched, has had its drawback sharpened once, and had its benefit gradually deprecate in value, and has now had its benefit compromised. 

If Limbo were released next week, it'd easily take the 'worst release' spot from Yareli. 

 

So what can be done to fix this? Well, for one, restoring the total rift invulnerability would work, since it'd just reset Limbo to where he was before Angels of the Zariman, being a very niche frame, but powerful within that niche. But it may be better to reconsider the deal of extremes entirely and repurpose the rift in some way to pull Limbo out of his little corner and give him more sway. 

I lean more towards the latter. The Rift is an interesting concept, but I also feel like it's thematically lost. What is it supposed to be? It's very Void-adjacent, but with the void now getting more of a spotlight shone on it with the Albrecht diaries, the Zariman's return, and more, I feel like the Rift needs to be better identified. If it's Limbo's own pocket dimension, why is his control over it so extremely limited? His only power inside the rift is timestop, and it's hardly unique. Slowva can approach that kind of power pretty closely outside the rift. 

The neat thing about the rift though, is that it is an entirely new entity and somewhat uncharted territory, so thematically, it can be bent in any way the devs might want. If it IS void-adjacent, why not play with that as a sort of transitory plane? Like giving Limbo the power to push the rift slightly closer to the void, causing the rift (And everything in it) to be bombarded with void energy? Perhaps the longer the rift is exposed to the void, the higher the void damage becomes, but this tests Limbo's limits and may cause damage to the frame if he tries to maintain it for too long.

Or give him more control over it. His dimension, his rules. Give him a new, more hands-on kit while in the rift to make him feel more like a master of his own domain. Gravitic manipulation allowing him to toss enemies around, energy suffusion allowing him to buff himself and teammates while they're in the rift, lightbending to make him invisible in the rift, all kinds of tricks he can pull out of his high hat since it's HIS plane. 

 

Overall, Limbo is in a -very- dire spot at the moment, and there's a TON of potential behind his design that I think could pretty easily be exploited. It's probably not even that difficult to come up with a fancy new kit for him to breathe new life into him, and it's probably even possible to retain his current playstyle for those who like it. I'd be more than happy to try and shake out a concept for him. I do love his style and concept, but his execution leaves him bottom of the barrel right now.

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On 2022-11-12 at 11:51 AM, KovakAizek said:

 

This whole post was born out of envy for Revenant, who got literal invulnerability to prevent Eximus from shredding his skin, while I need to use Silence just to live in current state of game balance.(Sorry for rant)

 

What if you used breach surge to cc the eximus both inside and outside the rift while multiplying your damage? 

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While I understand where DE was coming from with the eximus rework, sadly it feels like they completely disregarded frames which have crowd controlling as their main role. (I wouldn't be sure if it was something they considered when designing arbitration drones either.) Which was a bad design move considering CC frames already got very few uses outside higher level content.
Knowing how people can get on the forums, no, I don't want the game to be "easy mode", but I feel like there could be a midway where frames within a specific role don't just become nearly completely obsolete. It's bad both for the players who enjoy or enjoyed playing them, and also bad when considered that DE invested resources into modelling and coding those warframes, just for people to stop using them.
Not to mention most frames which are primarily for CC were designed around the idea at the time they released that they need to have low defenses because their defense is crowd control. So like you said for example, "Limbo lies bare" indeed.

Limbo, among other CC frames (and frames which released long ago) really could use a rework from DE to match today's standards.
And with rework I mean actually improving abilities, not forcing players to waste mod slots on bandaid augment mods.

Not to be offtopic too much, but I'd like Nyx to get a rework for similar reason because I like her idea as a CC/utility frame more than the idea of her being a tank with an augment mod. CC/utility is meant to be her true theme anyway.
(I don't want Assimilate removed, keep using it if you like it, I'm just personally not a fan of the mod, and I dislike it when it's brought up as a mean of dismissing constructive criticism on rest of the frame's kit.)

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his 1 should go back how it used to work; tiny, practically single target aoe that functions in both dimensions instead of the opposite one with unlimited cast range, that way you can single out or "snipe" enemies while in the rift and not disrupt your squad's targets.

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12 hours ago, cococciolo said:

his 1 should go back how it used to work; tiny, practically single target aoe that functions in both dimensions instead of the opposite one with unlimited cast range, that way you can single out or "snipe" enemies while in the rift and not disrupt your squad's targets.

At this point, that won't fix him anymore, since he's no longer safe in the rift. And he can't time stop eximi in the rift anymore either.

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On 2022-11-12 at 6:29 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:
On 2022-11-12 at 5:51 PM, KovakAizek said:

1. Cataclysm should inflate instead of shrinking. That would prevent enemies to stuck at the edge, hopping between dimensions, making it harder to kill from both dimensions.

No... this will make issues with interacting with consoles or grabbing loot even bigger as larger areas of the tileset are covered by his Cataclysm. I would be ok with it not shrinking and have enemies just run into it instead of trying to hide or shoot from the outside, also remove the inability to interact with things and gather loot which is one of the ability's down side.

If they would add ability to interact with stuffs (e.g. consoles) & loot stuffs then increasing cataclysm wouldn't be problem for those stuffs.

As for enemies, I think Limbo (and other players) should be able to damage enemies from other plane of existence even we deal e.g. less damage (reasonable of course). This would at least make gameplay with his kit usable in all situation (not the best but not very detrimental as it's now).

On 2022-11-12 at 6:29 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:
On 2022-11-12 at 5:51 PM, KovakAizek said:

2. Give Limbo status immunity, while in the rift. May sound OP, but there are certain frames that have it as base kit. It’s stupid to die from sniffing Toxin/Arson Eximus from another dimension. While other caster frames can empower their damage or survivability, Limbo lies bare.

No, he is already unaffected by whats outside the rift and can completely immobilize enemies inside it, why should he get status immunity? Also, Limbo players still need reasons to move instead of just idling inside the bubble in missions as i often see.

> Limbo is unaffected by what's outside the rift

> quotes about enemies that can attack enemies from outside the Rift

Please, learn to read.

Limbo (in another "dimension") is affected by enemies with Overguard (Eximus, Thrax, Tonkorian), Nullies (blatantly removes the rift, more later) and few more. In old days I've used to hide in the rift and go outside to e.g. shoot or pick stuffs. I used to be safe in the rift and take "dangerous" actions when I want. Now it's not possible.

I've done few Archon hunts and... normal limbo is not great in my opinion. I get one shoot by (probably) narmer blast (I think they have fixed it but I haven't tested it). I get killed via moving enemies in the statsis cataclysm.

I've once tried Zariman bounty - mobile defense with "no damage to console/shield". One enemy jumped straight to the console, failing mission.

On 2022-11-12 at 6:29 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:
On 2022-11-12 at 5:51 PM, KovakAizek said:

I4. Some ancient idea about making anything with Null/Cataclysm interaction. Or make it possible to shoot Nullifier bubble from the rift, since this omnipotent Corpus technology can put stuff out of rift.

Nullifiers were added into the game for very good reasons and i hope they remain the way they are. Not even Limbo should be imune to their effects. Nullifiers should remain as motives for Limbo players to stay active and step out of the bubble to deal with them.

Sure, if they were not hordes of Nullies or just Nullies destroying your bubbles, especially kamikadze. Now it's not "Limbo have to step out of his bubble" but "Limbo cannot sue his abilities".

 

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On 2022-11-24 at 9:38 PM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

What if you used breach surge to cc the eximus both inside and outside the rift while multiplying your damage? 

Yeah it works. Overguards are still a terrible design, though. Worse than Nullifiers because you can just kill Nullifier bubbles with Neutralizing Justice. I get what DE was trying to do but it doesn't work if there's too much visual clutter on screen. I always thought Arbitration Drones were the best implementation of this kind of power nullifying mechanic. Another is the nullifying pulse from demolysts and scrambus.

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I'll start off by saying I agree completely with what Colyeses has said.  As for myself, I've played Warframe for about 5 years now, >2200 hours.  My main frame has also been Limbo, but I've made it a point to build, play, and master every single frame that's come out.  I enjoy all of them except Yareli, Grendel, and Garuda (and I hear Grendel's got a rework otw, so great!)  Before I weigh in I want to be clear - most of the Warframes in the game are fun and awesome in some viable way, and I think overall the game is very fun and each kit has something to it, albeit with some balance issues.

Regarding the idea to change how Cataclysm works IE: Shrinking/Growing.  What nobody mentioned is that the shrinking Cataclysm effect IS currently where most of Limbo's damage comes from.  As the "skin" of the bubble shrinks off of enemies that are stuck in it, they are released from the rift - taking damage for that, and then they walk back up into it and get stuck again - taking damage again.  The very "in again, out again" mechanism that is, admittedly, frustrating for other people on the team is the method by which Limbo can very quickly kill enemies at a safe distance and with limited risk to himself.

But, damage dealing isn't what he's meant to do - as it was stated, he's an ultimate-CC frame.  Unfortunately, newer mechanics have chosen to reduce or remove CC as an option that is intended to be a standard in the game and as has been stated, this directly negates the entire point of his kit.  Coupled with the fact that SOME mechanics (Eximus AOE powers, environmental effects, etc.) can affect Limbo even through the Rift... as was also stated, the safety/immunity aspect of his kit is also gone.  The "on-off" switch of total safety was how I learned to play the game, and even how I mentor new players to it.  I follow them around while in the Rift so I don't interfere with anything while still preventing my own death, so I can watch what they're doing and teach them from relative safety.  There are many unique advantages to his kit that had nothing to do with being better than other frames, killing stuff faster, etc...

So how to bring that back?

#1 - Limbo being in the rift should mean Limbo cannot be harmed.  Period.  No random AoE status effects, no Eximus superpowers, void damages, nothing.  The entire point of the Rift plane was that he can step into it for safety at the exchange of not being able to interact with things.  That was a fair exchange and it should stand as such.

#2 - Other players don't like Limbo because they don't understand what he's doing while they're doing their own thing.  Warframe powers work through the rift, but again as the newer mechanics call more and more upon Operator and Weapon use over Powers, this increases the divide between how Limbo is intended to work and other players.  So, make it so that the interact/not interact mechanism ONLY affects Enemies and Limbo himself.  Other players should simply not have to worry about it, at all, and there goes that issue.  That being said  - your Operator mode should be able to affect everything Rift or not, because currently that nice new Unairu power that lets you revive yourself, cannot be used with Limbo because everything is in the Rift and so you cannot kill it yourself in order to get back up.  You also can't turn it off, because your Limbo is incapacitated...

#3 - Nullifiers, Eximus, Sentients should not delete or be immune to Limbo's powers - but they can reduce them.  For example, a Nullifier bubble can act the same way as Arbitration drones - providing a protection field from the rift's effects for those enemies that are in it.  Combined with #2, this would mean that Nullifiers would simply become priority targets for teammates to help address, or as someone stated cause Limbo to need to do something crafty in order to deal with them.  Eximus units with Overguard still on, can have an [choose what you think fair] percentage reduction to total paralysis from stasis.  But keep in mind, there are many game effects that still suppress and control Overguarded Eximus - like Rhino's stomp, Baruuk's Cobra & Crane strike, Impact Procs in general, etc.  Acting as if Eximus units are supposed to be totally immune to control effects... when they very much aren't... is only punishing frames like Limbo who rely upon control as their primary function.

#4 - Do not reinvent his entire kit.  He's a very cool frame and his Rift mechanic has been a beloved addition to the game's mechanics as a whole, by myself and many others.  Keep removing aspects that allow it to disrupt other players, keep updating it to stay with the times - but don't change the essence of who he is please.  He doesn't need to be a crazy damage dealer - literally most of the other frames are for that purpose.  If his Rift mechanics are updated properly, he'll be the ultimate frame from which to use Operator mode or develop your weapons, as his control provides you the breathing room to experiment with such things and that, to me, has always been his "niche" - learning from safety, while you control the environment around you until you can get used to what exactly is going on, lol.

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