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Coming Soon: Devstream #166


[DE]Megan
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Are their any other Warframes planned for a rework?

What happened to the 3rd Orb Mother boss fight?

While I enjoyed getting Revenant Prime, his Thralls die too quickly in pubs and do great in solo. Will there be any changes to that so my Thralls can do something without dying instantly?

Will we ever see that Chart Pablo has that shows all the Warframes from least to most used, with all the names listed?

Hunter Munitions. It seems to be a huge Crutch mod for killing enemies faster, and if weapons don't use it with Viral procs, enemies can take awhile to kill in high lvls. Rather than nerfing it, would it be better to go through all the damage types and make them more viable?

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On 2022-11-24 at 6:54 PM, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

nut shell: they failed to make its entire body topology correct(just made it look close ish style wise)  they cut the back of the head off and shrunk it to fit on valkyrs rig, used valky base body  and built off that and glued wolves to.

the reuse of a rig is fine in sculpt base. if they did so to properly make the design, they did not, this is simply cutting creative corners to get it "done" quickly . plenty gave input and example fixes, (would have taken 5 minutes in zbrush), and were flat ignored  , because they have to release "something" in dec,  i understand this ,but its gonna be half baked/hearted its not gonna go well, it never does.  

 I was so looking forward to the frame as im a joe mad fan for a long time and was very excited id have a frame designed by him.. till they showed the rush job render, as it was a "month away" of release there was no way they would do this properly realistically.   just disappointing to me , thus i can only hope her kit is useful, else she will just become another fodder frame , to level and forget 

I don't think you know what you are talking about, mind you I'm no expert either but:

  1. That is not how you use the word topology; difference from 2d to 3d were to be expected, in 2d you only have 1 point of view and you can make things works that wouldn't otherwise work in 3d (I dare you to find a concept art ported 1:1 to 3d from any games not just Warframe)
  2. All frames use the same rig there is no "valkyrs rig" and for the body you usually start from a base "humanoid" model (reinventing the wheel every time is kinda dumb) , block out the base shapes and then add the details so maybe they did use valkyr as a base but it's unlikely, the model seem different enough so they would have had to go back and simplify it before starting to block it out
  3. Most "example fixes" I've seen float around are for the head and chest and honestly unless they completely change the identity of the frame from the concept I can understand some changes, for example the changes to the head are most likely due to visibility issue, the concept art has a massive "horned/winged" (don't know really how to call it) shape. For the chest the only thing I can say is
    Spoiler

    qfqGwb8.png

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1 hour ago, oemedivad said:

 

I don't think you know what you are talking about, mind you I'm no expert either but:

  1. That is not how you use the word topology; difference from 2d to 3d were to be expected, in 2d you only have 1 point of view and you can make things works that wouldn't otherwise work in 3d (I dare you to find a concept art ported 1:1 to 3d from any games not just Warframe)
  2. All frames use the same rig there is no "valkyrs rig" and for the body you usually start from a base "humanoid" model (reinventing the wheel every time is kinda dumb) , block out the base shapes and then add the details so maybe they did use valkyr as a base but it's unlikely, the model seem different enough so they would have had to go back and simplify it before starting to block it out
  3. Most "example fixes" I've seen float around are for the head and chest and honestly unless they completely change the identity of the frame from the concept I can understand some changes, for example the changes to the head are most likely due to visibility issue, the concept art has a massive "horned/winged" (don't know really how to call it) shape. For the chest the only thing I can say is
      Reveal hidden contents

    qfqGwb8.png

 you are entitled to your own opinion , take it however you want tenno

personally,  I do 3d  stuff for fun, 3d sculpting, tennogen  , i also have lots of knowledge on the game for various reasons :satisfied:, if i come off as "angry or" confrontational , its not my intent, im just uncaring at this stage but can point out the criticism for the issue at hand, nothing will change or fix this at this point so it isnt really up to debate anymore 

 I have  explained this prior via that joe mad thread I linked( thus why i didnt go into details?) , so I gave a short simplistic answer to keep it to point and understandable, and also to not sidetrack the point of the thread, which is the luas prey update itself 

 simply stated the points and my own issues/ opinion, of a problem,  people can choose to agree or disagree (it dosnt matter to me?) and at this point wont help or change anything

  overall im disappointed in the end result and lost a bit more respect for this whole silly issue. plenty have stated its off, some still like it and are ok, some are not so thrilled, im one of them sadly.

(example) 

 (to explain further , not really a discussion ,nor will i reply to discussions pertaining it, as  i hate repeating myself) 

Spoiler

  due to the incoherence in bullet points topics , I will attempt to answer and explain  in points to each

1: topology in 3d 

See the source image

Spoiler

Why Do We Need Topology in 3D Modeling

because this a basic skill set and an example of the issue(s) with the model, and will extend to uv baking  and then rendering ,and ingame performance issues.

normally you use repto techniques and simplification of the mesh to clean this up and make it look more coherent/clean and flow better, aka a nice sculpt

on reviewing the model shown , there are problems and simplistic topology flaws that are not really to be expected other than in a rush job , given this was already prior shown   dev164 (check my overview?) and was in a grayscale using a high-poly sculpt, vorunas model is also not matching to the design point they themselves showed for the finale de created "colored" art draft which is odd, as usually that is our finalized what its to look like. this shows a lot of oddly morphology topology on the mesh thats very different to form throughout the design

Image6HlOI3SHvqQYb5VKkczcd1fELDP3ZySFBmwkj_ZhWDFLVtQy4mlaos7K-YVPMUWE6TaJ0CvX-CmU6MHOck6RdvqiQGJa4tCMP9A3AOxOz3aDuP-0YwrI6NqJYb_DWN-Sf9DYh3ZyN69D3XK67nLPPGgjEjOkqrXUYUzl9l3ZfRKgJw-8w2u9mPUgIgImage

Warframe-luas-prey-Voruna.jpg

Lycath the 51st Warframeusually 3d artists will change and try to play with shaping in the sculpt to better match with what time is available and do a cleanup /fine detailing

but seeing the finalized draft it deviated more so without explanation , unlike the wolf heads , its a bit impromptu and overall has some issues with the baked textures and even the wolf heads looking a bit too raw of a sculpt and not so refined and seems odd overall

some examples (there are plenty) of art shown that did render well to the finalized 3d end product 

See the source image

  sevagoth as we prior saw, but we were given an "updated design " they showed at tennocon much as the same way they showed vorunas updated colors style ,

this had minor and major changes, but this was done with updates and lettings us know in advance and was done well to match ingame and is a more complex mesh, though xaku is probably the most complex overall, that is a difficult one to work on, and i give lost epoch a lot of credit (is doing a full skin/helm bundle)

 Main imageImage

2: 2d -> 3d 

going from 2d usually you keep the OG art refence in the workspace and use it to build off the 3d model to be as close to as you can, some do this in blender by tracing using the pen and create a wire frame trace that they then build off in a 3d method. in zbrush some just simple eyeball it and or use it as a base similar to blender but use basic shaping to it and match that way

its fairly easy to match for the most part and just takes time and effort given the scale and or details involved. unless your in a time crunch or there is problematic points in the sculpt, usually causing artifacts or other issues such as with the application , (like 3d coats various bugs) 

given de can do this with plenty of frames, deluxe and designs, ect, it makes it more odd that this frames 3d would be harder or problematic to follow the og art closer , this appears to be a conscious decision given the team and capability of the artists they have on staff have done more complex and detailed models  

overall , matching isnt normally an issue from what ive experianced,  rendering usually shows details better and in more depth then on a 2d counterpart, so in reality it should get better unless done fast or incorrectly. given de explained the wolf heads, were changed for the powers setups,  nobody i know had an issue with it and were accepting of those changes and detail alterations as it was explained and infact added to the model overall . 

57IQRGie-waxyKr0tpN5sIYTuJT32apmg8TwXbpqSJDV2Sw9KfLQBaL_1tjMKK-L0r3RjEQrcGHCy6xYqH-ILrwBIyzCNp2QheoinB0t_uT9m5_bGuZ2Nj3gY9D0-y-wLY6UDLN7x_CKShGDT7YYiLrf4Ko_d5nXA0UYzKL5HCi-VoiSDjcciqYX0Q

there will be minor changes to certain forms in 3d transitioning and or overall design alterations made to accommodate the engine or ingame limitations. normally  realism is derived from a 3d mesh , when transitioning to the 3d style, and there are differences in depth or form but its not done without attempting to match it closer  (simple examples)  

See the source imageSee the source image

some examples of how this 2d->3d is done via a vid on more detailed designs 

Spoiler

 

3: ingame rendering & details 

using the innate functions of the engine , you can make certain flaws clean up better given lighting, shading, bloom, ect various factors involved

given the latest lighting overhaul did some goofy stuff its possible this is also in line with some of the issues, but dosnt seem so given the various angles shown from luas prey page. 

honestly speaking the axe looks the most clean and detailed , the sniper has some topology issues as well

1ksjXr6VqVV5QAQk-ShIla8TxDN-vLJsEQBCx0rjFcu_kHHsyb_SXPa3wJdZTZXuUBppGDf3bryuBmGe4vJGQKgNuDjhs0e0JrqvIvym8lKYtsh2VpTbynCM9sGqBKmHhyZ0ORS7jd8he4xKBHD7FWc-pwV-gVPcZCy_RHt2A4AnQq96Hao_4Q2G3A

QX8ZXgIpq6gvNIGiLKaN7Jc-e0GDUB96AttXarJwpOq-OYbQu6F-kcvDC1iQ_yCTKj0VA1qRR2dnCV0Sd_ULvre8sFf15xJ8q9eiNNQ4AwwWFItCdnCbOFycrFwqybLtWjY2HhFyBzwQ_Nu8_qdT6RqluputN-Ie9V_TFr-9nGz_shdDoQ_pGQxIgw

(if you know how to use ENB, is a great tool to play with in games , also reshade ) 

from what we were shown  it still matches that early graybox wip sculpt, of dev 164 which  de lowers the poly down significantly and bakes the highpoly textures to , to give it the illusion of the highpoly with better ingame performance (this is common game  dev practice) 

-some examples 

2019-05-25-image-13.png

See the source image

 

4: warframes rigging

to simplify the explanation, The animation system in Unreal Engine  is comprised of several Animation Tools and Editors which mixes skeletal-based deformation of meshes with morph-based vertex deformation to allow for complex animations in the engine.

This system can be used to make a models movement appear much more realistic by playing and blending between canned Animation Sequences, create customized special moves such as scaling ledges and walls, apply damage effects or facial expressions through Morph Targets, directly control the transformations of bones using Skeletal Controls, or create logic based State Machines that determine which animation a character should use in a given situation. 

de has shown this on some streams that evolution still follows this setup from unreal, there is also a Live editing of animation blueprints as well 

Graph PanelAnimGraph

 

the game uses default Excaliburs skeleton as the basis for roughly everything in some shape or form in evolution engine (aka de's unreal derived engine)  , both skeleton and animations are rigged via this.  but derivations were created later on, and exist  for various frames that came later for ease of animating and testing , the "rigging"  specific to Valkyrs mesh, is what de used to derive vorunas to get it done simpler and quickly. (nothing wrong with this) its a common practice to reuse and apply 

but, given the difference in size, scale and shape usually you create new child derivations that inherit from the parent but have differences more so to match the newer model, it would make sense to make a voruna derivation from Valkyr to work on and customize as needed, but technically it would be quicker to just use as is and simplify the model to match as thats faster to then add newer aniamtions to without having to re-invent the wheel on voruna, though this is why there are various body topology similarities still 

in coding, this is often called a parent and child setup to derive a pre-existing function  with differences /additions /changes that wont directly alter or affect the parent 

See the source image

skeletal example 

Spoiler

Image

See the source imageSee the source imageImageImage

5:  3d mesh development 

usually most will start with a simple shape (sphere, block ect) or a premade sculpt to progress and build off (above video's show this) , (humanoid or other) in this case the mesh for the frame  was made using valkyr's body (minus the head) as a base template (you can pull this from tennogen resource files) via the .rtf iirc  to work off  and then built up from there. usually tennogen artists will apply a simple object on the heads location to do custom sculpts , though matching ingame textures is sometimes harder then making your own 

Examples  a wip tennogen im collaborating with cobalt on, called the gyre plasma helm ;] ) 

Spoiler

ImageImage

ImageImage

this is a common thing in sculpting to using an existing model to work on as its already within needed parameter's and works inagme  and can be readily adapted to function faster then say starting from  scratch on a new setup for inagme application , aka the rigging and ect

this easy to see from the hands and torso,  they did minor changes here to match the "look" visually and style of voruna art to form, but topology & shaping is still very akin to valkyr in many  points and what makes it look a bit "off" for me anyway

the major changes was noted as hips, arms, thighs , calfs, and feet alterations , they did use a new custom head , but it came out almost like a chroma ish feel

though a alt helm is discussed but not shown , the tail is also removed and is a ephemera iirc not part of the character itself 

an exmaple done in like 5 secs on valkyr using pinch and draw and smooth of this , not very complex or detailed but shows what im explaining

Spoiler

Image

 

3:  fixes

yes they exist , in many a variation, head could be made a bit longer in back, more angular/sharp, but warframe has a weird organic/soft to hard sculpt setup which is weird in most as its a hard organic flow. 

overall the added parts to the mesh seem a bit weird proportionally , groins point and the arms and legs seem off but agian thats a personal issue 

though I honestly dont understand why de has a fascination with giving frames and skins exaggerated butt myself, but iirc sexualized content sells and i guess it works given its done repeatedly 

4: bust

See the source image

given warframe has frames that are more sexualized in design style , ect . ingame we already has boobs, over proportioned butts on females & males , and males with large or exaggerated cod pieces on model, i dont much see the issue myself, given its a mature game and im not to much caring about it.  adding large or small chests, given we have kuva guards who are much bigger in many (proportioned)  aspects , im unsure what the actual issue is, mameries dont much affect or hurt me personally?   its a decorative 3d fixed object thats an orb and is cosmetic, shouldn't be an issue in a mature game 

personally im a stickler for matching details and de usually is fine other than several cases were they deviated for time or some other internal, issue, bias, ect (review ignes deluxe art issues, minor changes on ligers designs , khora powers changes , ect ) 

the shaping on this variation of the 3d is off in terms of shaping imo, not so much size (minor) and an issue though its reduced by a bit truthfully in mass

imo its more angular , when the 2d design is orblike on the upper part , but that is mostly due to a metallic breastplate cup attachment on them that gives that look/style , and this 3d mesh seems to be missing that for some reason on the top half/sides. it gives that  illusion of "bigger" but its akin to say armor plate cups vs not, its not actually that big of a bust more illusionary given angle and style

personally my issues stem from de doing minor to major changes on stuff that wasnt really needed and or seemed very knee jerk, when at other times they dont or stay true to point (oberon and trintiy deluxe feet "dilemma" from the past comes to mind ) were they didnt change and kept to the design  (mostly) in form with minor details added 

its a bit hot/cold and back /forth i cant ever tell what they will not mess with vs not 

be that as it will this isnt really up for discussion anymore given then updates SOON tm , and this is the finalized results , im simply explaining this for clarification 

 

 

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On 2022-11-24 at 12:54 PM, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

  not gonna re post a giant long thread of the issue , see the joe mads wolf thread if your curious, for me if they had not shown the concept art of what it "was" to look like i wouldn't have an issue, and done so repeatedly with colors and example color render 

dfa4e9ab8bbe8eb101bde4a5973c1a88.png

  Reveal hidden contents

ImageImageImage

nut shell: they failed to make its entire body topology correct(just made it look close ish style wise)  they cut the back of the head off and shrunk it to fit on valkyrs rig, used valky base body  and built off that and glued wolves to.

the reuse of a rig is fine in sculpt base. if they did so to properly make the design, they did not, this is simply cutting creative corners to get it "done" quickly . plenty gave input and example fixes, (would have taken 5 minutes in zbrush), and were flat ignored  , because they have to release "something" in dec,  i understand this ,but its gonna be half baked/hearted its not gonna go well, it never does.  

 I was so looking forward to the frame as im a joe mad fan for a long time and was very excited id have a frame designed by him.. till they showed the rush job render, as it was a "month away" of release there was no way they would do this properly realistically.   just disappointing to me , thus i can only hope her kit is useful, else she will just become another fodder frame , to level and forget 

You failed at understanding the word 'concept'

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I'll post again the summary of things still juggling in the air...which had not received an answer in the last 9 months 

 

-Lifting the whole (content islands are still very disconnected)

-A proper story mode containing the old events

-Wall running still not a thing (although mentioned in devstream)

-UI still unfinished

-Command wheel for pets

-Leverian not seeing any entry for a while

-Many new frames still don't have noggles

-Drop chances revision

-Rage melee mode

-Modulary archwing

-Archwing melee revisit

-Old frames next revision pass (some need at least tweaked numbers...Frost, Hydroid and Grendel more than everything else)

-Railjack integration with open worlds

-Squad link

-Sorties 2.0

-3rd Orb fight

-Sergeant/Phorid boos fights revisions

-Raids

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On 2022-11-23 at 5:39 PM, tel__arin said:

Please start launching the operator armors for the drifter. 

+1, i'd like to finally use the Drifter, but without the same skins as my Operator, it's a no... and i'd like to use the Amp on the Drifter too, because i likes the Amp much more (reminds me Earth: Final Conflict TV Serie :heart:)

EDIT : for Voruna, i like much more the final design than the previously ones, and i think it's more in a Warframe style now ; for me, the original concept have is design much more in the Darksiders' serie. Just curious to see the abilities cause, i like the design, but if i don't like the abilities, i'll played her only for XPs...

Edited by (PSN)Crazy_Mr_J
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On 2022-11-24 at 2:39 AM, Dexaldem said:
On 2022-11-23 at 5:12 PM, Kirikken said:

@Dexaldemwhat's up with everyone and the sun?

We must unlock the sun. I have dreamt of it for 8 years. Nothing else matters to me. Unlock the Sun for exploration, DE. Do it.

That honestly would be INTERESTING. Probably not literal Sun (or other star as hot as Sun) but some "hot" planet. That would be nice experience.

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5 hours ago, quxier said:

  

That honestly would be INTERESTING. Probably not literal Sun (or other star as hot as Sun) but some "hot" planet. That would be nice experience.

Closest we've gotten are places like the Mars tilesets but it'd be neat to see a more *diverse* "hot planet" tileset. Mars' outdoor tilesets are... Pretty same-y.

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I would also like to see a "diverse hot planet". Mars doesn't count. I think Mercury or some asteroid orbiting the planet, the key I think is a fast rotation of the planet or a high shadow/not-shadow environmental effect.

In Mass Effect you had to stay in the shadows or the sunlight would burn you.

Spoiler

Tali_slice16.png?width=1280

In the movie Deep Impact, sunlight would make steam geysers erupt.

Spoiler

 

However, ideally I would like for actual FIRE tileset!

Spoiler

4v3VqTA.png

MaNZ8kD.gif

 

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