Move the only punch through mods.

[ADDgamer45]

Can we just move Metal Auger and Seeker to be exilus slot capable?

Single target weapons will consistently need help and I see no reason these two mods cant be exilus capable.

[Tyreaus]

21 minutes ago, ADDgamer45 said:

I see no reason these two mods cant be exilus capable.

They do boost DPS, via multi-target hits, and the weapon exilus slot is supposed to be for non-DPS adjustments.

That said, given their higher cost and non-global use-case (not so great with AoE, for example), one could make an argument for this particular exception. It's not like exilus "rules" haven't been broken before: Warframe exilus mods aren't supposed to alter combat stats like health or ability strength, but the drift mods are a thing. And you could argue that PT mods like Seeker don't actually increase DPS, because the damage a single target receives is the same with or without punch-through.

EDIT: To be clear, I'd be for this.

[ADDgamer45]

43 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

given their higher cost

Seeker should not be 15 points but start small right?

[Tiltskillet]

Fine with me.  (Include Seeking Force though.)

I'd prefer a form of innate PT, especially seeing as nearly all weapon AoE gets it for free.

And I don't know about anybody else, but PT would become my most used exilus by far.  Which isn't ideal.

But this is fine.

[ADDgamer45]

3 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Fine with me.  (Include Seeking Force though.)

I'd prefer a form of innate PT, especially seeing as nearly all weapon AoE gets it for free.

And I don't know about anybody else, but PT would become my most used exilus by far.  Which isn't ideal.

But this is fine.

I have a couple of people I know that dislike punch through for some reason so just leave it as an option to fight with some other exilus mods.

[Nira]

For single target guns adding punch through is a pretty hefty damage boost, which exilus is apparently not supposed to be for (even though -recoil allows me to land many more hits, sooo...).

That being said I'd support it. Punch through needs to be more accessible I think. I had the idea of adding it as the second bonus on max-rank Merciless arcanes. Doesn't look like the ammo bonus is coming back anytime soon!

[Famecans]

off topic thoughts:

for me punch trough is a useless mechanic for most weapons, warframe, strategies, missions, etc... but the following improvements can make the punch through mechanic useful or even devastating broke:

• ll weapons and projectile types should work with punchtrough even on AoE weapons but to compensate, AoE weapons cannot explode when passing through and cannot pass through walls. We have the Xaku Xata Buble skill but the functionality is complicated as it doesn't work on all weapons in the game.

 

• punched/thrust targets should receive twice the damage through newly modded mechanics, this would be a similar mechanic to headshot and this would make the punchthrough mechanic completely focused on passing through targets as headshots will rarely go through multiple targets. maybe some interaction with piercing damage, idk.

 

• fast reloading with high magazine capacity should be accessible through new mods on punchtrough focused builds. the punchthrough focused player knows that the best strategy is to camp in one spot and spray the hordes in a line, this is a stationary strategy similar to protea artillery so while camped the reload time cannot disturb the effectiveness of the weapon and the magazine It can't be scarce either.

 

• rework/improvement of gas damage and effectiveness of cold status. gas damage works similar to electrical damage which is AoE linking enemies. the advantage of gas damage is that the gas status remains in the area for a short period of time until enemies accumulate in the damage cloud, the disadvantage of gas is that it is not multiplicative even piercing through multiple enemies to generate clouds, cold is functional for the traverse mechanic but gaseous damage doesn't work in the same build as clouds and gaseous damage is inefficient.

 

• separate the punchthrough passives in new mods, punchthrough walls is different from enemies and all these mechanics make punchthrough even more complicated to understand / teach, I think this should be accessible and controllable through new mods.

 

• and finally the visual and auditory distinction of the punchtrough action. new audio and visual effect when passing through walls and enemies audio and visual effects totally different from the current audio and ricochet effect of the game.

[0_The_F00l]

Exilus mod slot is in my eyes an acceptance that DE has failed in or accepted their inability in balancing their mods ,

So any request of "i wish x mod was exilus" is just asking for more imbalance.

I feel the game is in need of a stat squish and reduction of the many multipliers that exist.

 

[Frendh]

On 2022-12-05 at 9:02 PM, ADDgamer45 said:

Can we just move Metal Auger and Seeker to be exilus slot capable?

No.

7 hours ago, Famecans said:

but the following improvements can make the punch through mechanic useful or even devastating broke:

And very much no.

[Famecans]

12 minutes ago, Frendh said:

No.
And very much no.

Thank you very much for letting us know, I'll write it down in my notebook and let the developers know😂

[Frendh]

2 minutes ago, Famecans said:

and let the developers know😂

That is what I just did by posting here.

[Pakaku]

Punchthrough is definitely a DPS boost, so it can't be an exilus mod. And yes, it does make a difference since it's an AoE, even if in this case it's linear AoE.

The main problem I see with punchthrough is the Naramon polarity... I think Punchthrough is comparable to multishot, you're dealing more damage more efficiently over fewer shots, and Metal Augur has the same cost as Split Chamber.

But out of the two, Split Chamber's Madurai is always more valuable than Metal Auger's Naramon. You already have limited mod slots, so the polarity difference makes it harder to be versatile. If they were both Madurai, you could switch between more single-target damage or more crowd damage. Having both usually means polarizing one slot for Naramon, which then limits what else you can fit in. Punchthrough is underrated IMO, but since I already have my weapons built for multishot, I can't always just temporarily slot Metal Augur in.

What makes it worse is Shred is a Madurai mod... but it gives you less punch-through. So if you want more, you have to deal with Metal Augur having a different polarity, or pass up on it if you can't fit it in.

It's also difficult to really understand what punchthrough distances mean. How do you know for sure if 1m or 2m of punchthrough can pierce through an enemy body and hit the next one? It would probably help if the card and stat numbers could describe how many enemy bodies your total punchthrough can actually penetrate through.

[Famecans]

8 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

How do you know for sure if 1m or 2m...

it's a mechanic focused on reality but very confusing to understand in the interface, that's why I mentioned that punchthough needs to be simplified and fully encouraged in other ways. new mods, increased damage, synergies with status, etc... all this to make punchthroug minimally attractive to be tested/used.

[Nira]

17 hours ago, Pakaku said:

Punchthrough is definitely a DPS boost, so it can't be an exilus mod. And yes, it does make a difference since it's an AoE, even if in this case it's linear AoE.

The main problem I see with punchthrough is the Naramon polarity... I think Punchthrough is comparable to multishot, you're dealing more damage more efficiently over fewer shots, and Metal Augur has the same cost as Split Chamber.

But out of the two, Split Chamber's Madurai is always more valuable than Metal Auger's Naramon. You already have limited mod slots, so the polarity difference makes it harder to be versatile. If they were both Madurai, you could switch between more single-target damage or more crowd damage. Having both usually means polarizing one slot for Naramon, which then limits what else you can fit in. Punchthrough is underrated IMO, but since I already have my weapons built for multishot, I can't always just temporarily slot Metal Augur in.

What makes it worse is Shred is a Madurai mod... but it gives you less punch-through. So if you want more, you have to deal with Metal Augur having a different polarity, or pass up on it if you can't fit it in.

It's also difficult to really understand what punchthrough distances mean. How do you know for sure if 1m or 2m of punchthrough can pierce through an enemy body and hit the next one? It would probably help if the card and stat numbers could describe how many enemy bodies your total punchthrough can actually penetrate through.

As is often the case with Warframe it's an over-complicated mess, 2m might mean three Infested bodies, two Corpus and 1.3333 Grineer.

Primed Shred is an exception, being just an all-round superior option to vanilla Shred and Metal Auger, but it's locked behind a substantial time gate.

Like I said I'd totally be for adding PT via an arcane, it adds a considerable DPS boost to single target guns. I couldn't live without it on Knell Prime now. Only way I could slot it in is via a riven.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

I'd Rather See

new mods that combine Punchthru with some other modifier.

spending a mod slot on Just Punchthru is kinda rough

Shred on rifles is a fine example, combing it with fire rate makes it worth using while Metal Auger I completely ignore.

as Pistols don't have a combined version, I tend to just not bother with it over more important mods.

 

there's also the consideration that you don't want punchthru to become an Mandatory Mod. I can see making it Exilus resulting in it being the only exilus ever used....

Seeking Fury on shotguns feel like it's in a good place, Punchthru+Reload gives enough benefit to be worth a mod slot, but also not so overpowered that I use it every time.

 

Maybe to mix things up, DE could combine some underutilized stats, so instead of creating New Mandatory Punchthru Mods they offer some unusual builds?

for example PunchThru + Electric might be interesting. since in the current meta electric is avoided...

[Redpaws]

I'm all for the above: Give us some actually good punch through mods.

Rifles got both got the room for a flex slot in your typical crit/status hybrid build, and Primed Shred, so rifles are already good. I'd let shotguns also use Primed Shred though. This should be perfectly fine, as shotguns already got Shotgun Barrage, which gives +90% fire rate, so I think it'd be a fair tradeoff to decide if you want to drop some fire rate in exchange for punch through.

And for pistols, yeah, I'd love a mod with electric or toxin and punch through. Or making an Amalgam Torrent mod as a 10 point mod (capacity cost going from 11 to 16, or 6 to 8 in polarized slot) with 4-5% fire rate/multi shot per rank (44-55% maxed) with an added 0.1m punch through (1.1m maxed). Right now I have to get a riven and reroll it potentially hundreds of times to get punch through + toxin or electric, just to fit punch through in a build. I shouldn't have to use a riven for that. I just wanna have corrosive/heat with some punch through on my pistols, dangit.

[Sylonus]

On 2022-12-05 at 2:14 PM, Tyreaus said:

weapon exilus slot is supposed to be for non-DPS adjustments.

On 2022-12-09 at 2:48 PM, Pakaku said:

Punchthrough is definitely a DPS boost, so it can't be an exilus mod.

I understand that this is how DE has framed the distinction, but it's always been a rather ridiculous way of saying it, nearly every exilus mod in some manner theoretically increases DPS, the real question is only how direct and impactful that DPS increase is. Whether it be more ammo, less recoil, silent shots, zoom changes, projectile speed, beam length, tactical reload, increased accuracy/reduced spread, cautious shot, even in a very roundabout way, mending shot or energizing shot, they all represent less time lost doing something else, which means more time for DPS, mostly by, but not limited to target acquisition.

The real question we should be asking is, how used is this mod now, how used would it be if we made this change? Is it more fair for this mod only to compete with the other exilus mods, or should it be asked to compete with all mods?

I think it's safe to say Shred/Primed Shred probably shouldn't be allowed in the exilus slot, and that Metal Auger and Seeker would probably be pretty safe to move to the exilus slot, and I'm honestly unsure about Vigilante Offense, Seeking Fury.

[Pakaku]

42 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

I understand that this is how DE has framed the distinction, but it's always been a rather ridiculous way of saying it, nearly every exilus mod in some manner theoretically increases DPS, the real question is only how direct and impactful that DPS increase is. Whether it be more ammo, less recoil, silent shots, zoom changes, projectile speed, beam length, tactical reload, increased accuracy/reduced spread, cautious shot, even in a very roundabout way, mending shot or energizing shot, they all represent less time lost doing something else, which means more time for DPS, mostly by, but not limited to target acquisition.

The real question we should be asking is, how used is this mod now, how used would it be if we made this change? Is it more fair for this mod only to compete with the other exilus mods, or should it be asked to compete with all mods?

I think it's safe to say Shred/Primed Shred probably shouldn't be allowed in the exilus slot, and that Metal Auger and Seeker would probably be pretty safe to move to the exilus slot, and I'm honestly unsure about Vigilante Offense, Seeking Fury.

I still think punchthrough is too strong for the exilus slot, because it increases the number of your potential hits per trigger pull. It's comparable to fire rate since you can fire at the same rate and still deal more instances of damage per second. Same with standard AoE and mods that increase blast radius. All increase your theoretical max number of hits per second, so they shouldn't be allowed to be exilus.

The biggest problem is punchthrough doesn't exactly match multishot in potential damage, since it's more of a group-killing feature that will be less effective against stronger single targets. The naramon polarity also doesn't do those mods any favours... I'd say reduce the cost to 9 or 11, and change them to madurai, and they'd be much easier to work with. Shred already costs 11, but has reduced punchthrough, so it's fine as is. Even fulmination only costs 9, although it doesn't give non-AoE weapons any blast radius...

 

42 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

more ammo, less recoil, silent shots, zoom changes, projectile speed, beam length, tactical reload, increased accuracy/reduced spread, cautious shot

Mods that offer things like this don't directly increase DPS or number of hits per second, though. Adding them won't make your shots any more or less stronger, they just enhance the method of delivering damage or add convenience. The most powerful out of those IMO would be the reduced spread, but even in that case you can make up for it by getting closer.

[Sylonus]

22 hours ago, Pakaku said:

I still think punchthrough is too strong for the exilus slot, because it increases the number of your potential hits per trigger pull.

-snip-

Mods that offer things like this don't directly increase DPS or number of hits per second, though.

Several exilus slot mods absolutely increase potential hits per second in a lot of situations, even before we get into situations where "that shot would've missed, but it hit instead" there are situations such as projectile weapons where a portion of the hit would've missed without more projectile speed, or for more damage, really with lots of weapons but more notably on specific types of weapons such as projectile weapons with natural multishot (Exergis, Drakgoon or Kuva Drakgoon), or weapons with body punch (Catchmoon or Arca Plasmor) allowing the projectile to go further and with a lesser damage fall off, hitting more enemies for more damage, projectile speed reducing falloff  from shotguns, especially those with innate punch Through (Kuva Kohm) allowing you to hit more enemies with less damage falloff, or certain beam weapons such as Ignis Wraith or Kuva Nukor, beam length often allows you to get more hits per trigger pull, so this is definitively not drawing any comparisons that make it seem different.

Even weapons that offer things like aim, zoom, silence, auto-reload, etc as mentioned offering reduction of target acquisition definitively increase DPS, again the question is how situational is this DPS increase, and how much does it need to compete with other similar mods.

You say that punch through is "too strong" for the exilus slot, I doubt that very much in the case of these two specific mods, while I could be wrong here, the real question that determines that is how much would it increase or decrease mod diversity if it was allowed. Right now, the exilus slot is dominated primarily by ammo mods, (most notably, vigilante supplies due to being packaged with a crit increase which obviously increases damage directly and far less situationally than most other options, and especially helps to combat some of the recent ammo nerfs), would allowing Metal Auger or Seeker to be used there replace other options? I don't think it would, while I do think their usage would rise I don't think they'd be dominant mods in the exilus slot, even weapons that would arguably get the most out of punch through (chaining beam weapons) don't really get a benefit as they're already prioritizing beam length in the exilus slot, so them being available there doesn't free up a mod slot. In reality I think it would simply be a usable but situational choice on some weapons that actively need the help, mostly hitscan sniper rifles, shotguns, assault rifles and secondaries that are relatively ammo efficient that have no innate punch through, they'll be sacrificing single target DPS (The crit bonus of Vigilante, or Projectile Speed for Range on Shotguns) for multitarget DPS, and that's pretty niche and sounds like it would increase build diversity rather than reduce it.

[BR31]

I'd be for it.

It's a dps increase, but vigilante mutations is also a direct dps increase. Esp with multiple stacks.

For a single target it's the same damage.
 

[No_Quarter]

Honestly, I think most precision firearms should have punch trough by default. Not sure how that messes with resources, but that's their only chance vs aoe meta. And by a long shot, no other way of tuning them comes close.

There's no room for a single stat mod for that.