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How to balance AoE weapons to force players to aim at enemies.


IfritKajiTora
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The main reason why AoE weapons are better than others, is the range of damage.
Range should be reduced, add % damage scale with the distance from where the explosive bullet/arrow hit. So you would be forced to aim as close to enemies you want to kill as possible.

The same goes with Glaive Prime and other throwing weapons. I would like to use melee weapons but they are useless when you compare them to glaive prime throw build.
You throw it, it hits the enemy causing explosion adding guaranted slash status, and then you quickly detonate glaive by pressing charge attack which also add guaranted slash status and that makes throwing weapons double powerfull. Range and also add % damage scale with the distance.

That way AoE weapons will be not an ultimate choice over other non AoE weapons since their damage will scale with distance beetwen enemies and center of explosion and also reduced range forcing players to make better aim at enemies, instead of blindly shooting and dealing high damage to all enemies in range.

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14 minutes ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Or how about Single Targets get some QoL buffs instead to make using them actually worthwhile? Because when you're up against 20 Level 200 Steel Path enemies with Overguard you usually don't have the time to take them out one by one with headshots. 

This is why you have multiple weapons. Melee some, shoot some, snipe some. Use a grouping ability etc.

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44 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

This is why you have multiple weapons. Melee some, shoot some, snipe some. Use a grouping ability etc.

In general overguard ignores that, and if not its bugged. Then again its vice versa. For groups you got aoe to deal with. Sadly enemies are low lvl for long time even in endurance missions to aoe loose its advantage.

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42 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

In general overguard ignores that, and if not its bugged. Then again its vice versa. For groups you got aoe to deal with. Sadly enemies are low lvl for long time even in endurance missions to aoe loose its advantage.

In general only overguard ignores CC. Vazarin has a vauban mine that groups enemies together, leaving the eximus alone to kill however you'd like.

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2 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said:

The main reason why AoE weapons are better than others, is the range of damage.
Range should be reduced, add % damage scale with the distance from where the explosive bullet/arrow hit. So you would be forced to aim as close to enemies you want to kill as possible.

This already happens, just the values are too high for it to matter.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Or how about Single Targets get some QoL buffs instead to make using them actually worthwhile? Because when you're up against 20 Level 200 Steel Path enemies with Overguard you usually don't have the time to take them out one by one with headshots. 

And how exactly would you buff single-target weapons without turning them into a pseudo AoE in order to compete with AoE? We already have single-target weapons capable of instantly killing enemies in Steel Path with Overguard. Phenmor and Felarx off the top of my head. What more could you possibly add to them that they don't already have?

This just seems like what you're suggesting is sweeping an obvious problem with the game (AoE meta) under the rug. Buffing everything to be as broken as AoE is powercreep that would never end, followed by constantly buffing enemies or adding new ones designed purely to tack down your absurdity. Nerfing the obvious problems is the quickest, easiest, and most cost-effective way of balancing the game.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:
2 hours ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Or how about Single Targets get some QoL buffs instead to make using them actually worthwhile? Because when you're up against 20 Level 200 Steel Path enemies with Overguard you usually don't have the time to take them out one by one with headshots. 

This is why you have multiple weapons. Melee some, shoot some, snipe some. Use a grouping ability etc.

And this again proves the point that single target weapons need more layers of effort to reach the same result easily achievable with an AoE weapon,  highlighting the unbalance between the two archetypes. Back to square one

Edited by DebrisFlow
full quote for context
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16 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

And this again proves the point that single target weapons need more layers of effort to reach the same result easily achievable with an AoE weapon,  highlighting the unbalance between the two archetypes. Back to square one

Well aoe doesnt do as near dmg to 1 enemy as single target. But over all  dealing 100 dmg 10 times with 1 shot to a group of enemies is better than do 1k to 1 enemy in 1 shot. 

And in the end game is orbiting arround radial attacks/aoe.  Only mission which focuses purely on single target is just disruption missions and lvl cap attempts to it. And of course your some boss fights. And even then recently aoe is option which deal dmg to some bug delivered via update.

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vor 27 Minuten schrieb Pizzarugi:

And how exactly would you buff single-target weapons without turning them into a pseudo AoE in order to compete with AoE? We already have single-target weapons capable of instantly killing enemies in Steel Path with Overguard. Phenmor and Felarx off the top of my head. What more could you possibly add to them that they don't already have?

This just seems like what you're suggesting is sweeping an obvious problem with the game (AoE meta) under the rug.

1. Innate Punch Through for all Single Targets

2. When doing a headshot to an Overguard enemy, a medium (7-10m radius), non-damage (!) explosion is triggered that shortly staggers all surrounding enemies (.5 sec) and strips the Overguard off of them. It would give Single Targets a niche use, setting the stage for actual AoE to dish out the damage or further CC or weakening the enemies and it would indirectly nerf what in my eyes was the worst addition to the game in my almost four years of WF. It would reward skill, weapon changing and planning. 

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

1. Innate Punch Through for all Single Targets

2. When doing a headshot to an Overguard enemy, a medium (7-10m radius), non-damage (!) explosion is triggered that shortly staggers all surrounding enemies (.5 sec) and strips the Overguard off of them. It would give Single Targets a niche use, setting the stage for actual AoE to dish out the damage or further CC or weakening the enemies and it would indirectly nerf what in my eyes was the worst addition to the game in my almost four years of WF. It would reward skill, weapon changing and planning. 

So... your suggestion is to make all single-target weapons into pseudo AoE rather than simply making AoE not meta? Instead of balancing the game, we turn the powercreep up to 11?

Edited by Pizzarugi
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vor 12 Minuten schrieb Pizzarugi:

So... your suggestion is to make all single-target weapons into pseudo AoE rather than simply making AoE not meta? Instead of balancing the game, we turn the powercreep up to 11?

Okay, first, it is AoE only against something that shouldn't have been integrated in the game in the first place. Overguard hurt EVERYTHING except for AoE spam. It's only fair that we get a method to get rid of it effectively, that doesn't require shooting Tonkor or throwing Glaive Prime five times in a row.

Second, the game at no point forces you to use the meta or even mods at all. But Single Target weapons staying borderline unusable hurts everyone. It hurts long time players because they have to bring the ever same weapons to keep up with enemy assault and it hurts new players or chill players because it makes people like you blindly scream for more nerfs to AoE instead of adressing the actual problems with the game.

If you have the feeling the game got powercrept too much, well, do me a favor:

Take Limbo and only Sybaris Prime and Pandero Prime to one of the new nodes on Steel Path. Tell me your experience. After that we can talk powercreep again...

 

 

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1 hour ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Okay, first, it is AoE only against something that shouldn't have been integrated in the game in the first place. Overguard hurt EVERYTHING except for AoE spam. It's only fair that we get a method to get rid of it effectively, that doesn't require shooting Tonkor or throwing Glaive Prime five times in a row.

Overguard only protects the eximus, for one. Additionally, Overguard was implemented as a way to stop players from CCing everything to death which hasn't been relevant since nukes have become the meta. Finally, Overguard is vulnerable to void damage. Xata's Whisper obliterates it.

1 hour ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Second, the game at no point forces you to use the meta or even mods at all. But Single Target weapons staying borderline unusable hurts everyone. It hurts long time players because they have to bring the ever same weapons to keep up with enemy assault and it hurts new players or chill players because it makes people like you blindly scream for more nerfs to AoE instead of adressing the actual problems with the game.

How does not being a pocket nuke make single-target weapons unusable? Have you actually tried using a single-target weapon lately? If you know how to play, they can destroy enemies just as effectively as an AoE.

You make it sound like there are only two missions in the game: Survival and (E)SO. The only time you need to worry about slaughtering everything as quickly as possible is in those two missions since success hinges entirely on how quick you kill. You don't need a 1shot nuke to do an Assassination, Capture, Exterminate, Mobile Defense, etc. If you think otherwise, then you've gotten so used to nuking everything that anything less is unviable in your eyes.

And that's the actual problem with the game: This obsession that nothing matters except cleaning out rooms with one button.

1 hour ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

If you have the feeling the game got powercrept too much, well, do me a favor:

Take Limbo and only Sybaris Prime and Pandero Prime to one of the new nodes on Steel Path. Tell me your experience. After that we can talk powercreep again...

Oh, you mean the mode DE literally added to combat powercreep? You do understand Steel Path was never their intention to be an endgame or even a lategame thing, right? Barring Steel Essence, there's little to no difference between it and normal star chart. You can get the same exact rewards and resources doing normal content. Steel Path is for when you want to brag that you can handle bullet sponges that are 100 levels higher than their normal counterparts.

If you're upset that Sybaris Prime and Pandero Prime are bad in content that only exists to be a challenge mode, that's entirely your problem. That still doesn't mean it's okay for AoE to obliterate normal star chart content, and the solution is to somehow make single-target as busted as it.

EDIT:
Adding this just in case it gets brought up. If you suggest I play Steel Path, you should know I literally farm Steel Path disruption missions to max level for Steel Essence for relic packs and kuva. In missions like this, single-target weapons are king.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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1. The problem with leaning on damage is that good balance gets restricted to particular areas. It might be well-balanced at Steel Path, but Starchart suffers the same.

2. I feel like the Tenet Plinx highlights a decent way to do it: change the relationship between AoE and single-target, for example by making AoE components of weapons have a cooldown, via fire rate for example, that is filled by single-target components. The current relationship is that AoE is just a weapon type or category, like semi-auto or beam weapons, rather than something woven into the rest of the system. ("Components" because you could have something like a single-target alt-fire on even the Bramma, so you use an AoE arrow on a cooldown, then swap arrows to use single-target projectiles until the explosive is back. The Plinx might do it on the level of weapons, but it doesn't have to.)

For clarity, I bring up the Tenet Plinx because I've found a really solid strategy is swapping to and from the Plinx for the explosive alt-fire, and using a primary or melee while it's on cooldown to keep damage going.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Pizzarugi:

Overguard only protects the eximus, for one. Additionally, Overguard was implemented as a way to stop players from CCing everything to death which hasn't been relevant since nukes have become the meta. Finally, Overguard is vulnerable to void damage. Xata's Whisper obliterates it.

How does not being a pocket nuke make single-target weapons unusable? Have you actually tried using a single-target weapon lately? If you know how to play, they can destroy enemies just as effectively as an AoE.

You make it sound like there are only two missions in the game: Survival and (E)SO. The only time you need to worry about slaughtering everything as quickly as possible is in those two missions since success hinges entirely on how quick you kill. You don't need a 1shot nuke to do an Assassination, Capture, Exterminate, Mobile Defense, etc. If you think otherwise, then you've gotten so used to nuking everything that anything less is unviable in your eyes.

And that's the actual problem with the game: This obsession that nothing matters except cleaning out rooms with one button.

Oh, you mean the mode DE literally added to combat powercreep? You do understand Steel Path was never their intention to be an endgame or even a lategame thing, right? Barring Steel Essence, there's little to no difference between it and normal star chart. You can get the same exact rewards and resources doing normal content. Steel Path is for when you want to brag that you can handle bullet sponges that are 100 levels higher than their normal counterparts.

If you're upset that Sybaris Prime and Pandero Prime are bad in content that only exists to be a challenge mode, that's entirely your problem. That still doesn't mean it's okay for AoE to obliterate normal star chart content, and the solution is to somehow make single-target as busted as it.

1. Ancient healers and quite a few other enemies have overguard too. And "only eximus", well, there are an awful amount running around. I see more Eximus/Overguard enemies lately than normal enemies.

2. I want more options not less. If I have to use a certain ability, something is very wrong.

3. I wouldn't be complaining so much about Single Targets being bad if I hadn't played a lot of them lately. They are just inefficient in a game where efficiency is key.

4. Perhaps it is time for an actual endgame if Steel Path isn't it. But I don't see how making everything harder for everyone will make the game better. It will only lead to many people leaving. And to the people saying "Good Riddance": That's sometimes paying customers leaving the game, and I want Warframe to be around for a while more.

5. That you feel bored because of powercreep, that's entirely your problem (to quote yourself), because nobody forces you to use your best equipment. But it's unfair that you want to slow down everyone and make the game grindier just because you are bored. Other people are bored by the fact the have to play content 100s of times until the desired object finally drops (believe me, I got 6 entire Miter sets before the  Twin Gremlins dropped and stuff like that is only the pinnacle of the grind iceberg). And AoE sometimes is the only thing to keep that grind in check.

 

I want more options for everyone, you want more challange. So how about this? Buff Single Targets and instead of nerfing stuff that shouldn't be nerfed, put in new, more mechanic heavy content. Because that would certainly make us both happy.
 

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29 minutes ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

1. Ancient healers and quite a few other enemies have overguard too. And "only eximus", well, there are an awful amount running around. I see more Eximus/Overguard enemies lately than normal enemies.

Non-eximus Overguard is incredibly weak by comparison. It's a small layer of added defense you can easily melt off. The increased eximus spawns happen because of prolonged stays in endless content and in high level missions. Seeing as you've mentioned Steel Path, which has max enemy spawns, it's no surprise you'd find more.

29 minutes ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

2. I want more options not less. If I have to use a certain ability, something is very wrong.

I want more options too. Why would anyone use AoE if they're far and above everything else, and there's nothing that could be done for single-target that won't just turn them into AoE as well?

29 minutes ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

3. I wouldn't be complaining so much about Single Targets being bad if I hadn't played a lot of them lately. They are just inefficient in a game where efficiency is key.

You need to play less Survival and (E)SO then. As I've said before, those are the only missions where quick kills are important. You don't need a Kuva Zarr or Kuva Bramma for capture, rescue, defense, etc.

29 minutes ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

4. Perhaps it is time for an actual endgame if Steel Path isn't it. But I don't see how making everything harder for everyone will make the game better. It will only lead to many people leaving. And to the people saying "Good Riddance": That's sometimes paying customers leaving the game, and I want Warframe to be around for a while more.

Has it not occurred to you that DE making the game harder for everyone is in response to powercreep that they keep pumping out? There was a time when the game didn't have Nullifiers, but when CC was at its most popular, they added them. Bog/Comba/Scrambus enemies too. They added Nox enemies as a weak attempt to curtail AoE by making it so headshots were the best way to kill them, but new ones deal so much damage that it's a moot point.

I bet if DE was able to nerf things without players throwing the hissiest of fits, they wouldn't have had to implement these speed bumps.

What do you think is going to happen if you made single-target weapons as broken as AoE? You think DE's suddenly going to stop adding more difficult content rather than accelerate it which is more likely going to be the case? How much closer do enemies have to reach Wolf of Saturn Six levels of sponge before we realize this a nightmare of our own doing?

29 minutes ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

5. That you feel bored because of powercreep, that's entirely your problem (to quote yourself), because nobody forces you to use your best equipment. But it's unfair that you want to slow down everyone and make the game grindier just because you are bored. Other people are bored by the fact the have to play content 100s of times until the desired object finally drops (believe me, I got 6 entire Miter sets before the  Twin Gremlins dropped and stuff like that is only the pinnacle of the grind iceberg). And AoE sometimes is the only thing to keep that grind in check.

It's not about slowing everyone down, it's to stop players brandishing a Kuva Zarr or Kuva Bramma from spamming bullet jumps and carpet-bombing rooms or pressing 4 with Saryn, reducing the game to a walking simulator for everyone else. Literally a lot of reasons why DE has been making nerfs to AoE lately has been in part because of things they consider to be disruptive play. Teammates turning your hoard shooter into an idle game with one button is disruptive, which is why they nerfed the AoE radius and ammo economy, and are now debating bringing back self-damage.

For once, they are actively trying to curb their powercreep.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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vor 28 Minuten schrieb Pizzarugi:

For once, they are actively trying to curb their powercreep.

Can we then at least discuss curbing grindcreep as well? Because the main reason why people dive into powercreep so much is that the drop chances are sometimes horrendous. 
Sometimes you want to spice things up, yes, but you want to do it with something that is efficient and gets you through the grind just as fast. If AoE gets nerfed too much, most missions will take twice as long, meaning it will take twice as long to get through grind. This is why I advocate buffs over nerfs so much.

If I go 20+ Void Storms in succession without seeing a single holokey, if I have to roll my Rivens over 200 times and still get terrible rolls, if I play the same Spy mission 50+ times and only then the first (!) Ivara part drops for me, if I get 6 entire Miter sets before I get my Twin Gremlins, if I have to play 40+ isolation vault bounties just to get Arum Spinosa to drop, if I have to get to Round 8 in ESO over 70 times to get Lato and Braton Vandal, if I have to play over 30 C-Rotations in Void Armageddon for the Hespar and if I have to play the same Survival mission for literal 4 months everyday just to complete my Focus Schools, then excuse me for becoming fed up and wanting to become as efficient as possible.

If the grind wasn't so horrendous it wouldn't be so infuriating if mission are a bit harder and take longer. Btw I like the Archon Hunts, they are once per week and thus I am fine with them being challenging.

Edited by (PSN)c1234567890alvi
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46 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Non-eximus Overguard is incredibly weak by comparison. It's a small layer of added defense you can easily melt off.

Not always true.  It's possible for Ancient Healers to give Overguard to allied armor units that is way beyond what their eximus equivalents would get.

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4 hours ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Okay, first, it is AoE only against something that shouldn't have been integrated in the game in the first place. Overguard hurt EVERYTHING except for AoE spam. It's only fair that we get a method to get rid of it effectively, that doesn't require shooting Tonkor or throwing Glaive Prime five times in a row.

Second, the game at no point forces you to use the meta or even mods at all. But Single Target weapons staying borderline unusable hurts everyone. It hurts long time players because they have to bring the ever same weapons to keep up with enemy assault and it hurts new players or chill players because it makes people like you blindly scream for more nerfs to AoE instead of adressing the actual problems with the game.

If you have the feeling the game got powercrept too much, well, do me a favor:

Take Limbo and only Sybaris Prime and Pandero Prime to one of the new nodes on Steel Path. Tell me your experience. After that we can talk powercreep again...

 

 

They aren't unusable, the players just lack knowledge and planning. There are plenty of videos on youtube for you to check out.

5 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

And this again proves the point that single target weapons need more layers of effort to reach the same result easily achievable with an AoE weapon,  highlighting the unbalance between the two archetypes. Back to square one

It's not effort....you're just pressing a button and moving a reticle. 

And we're talking physics that will never change. Snipers don't complain that their rifles can't do the same damage as a drone strike. Gun owners don't complain that they can't have nukes in their garage. 

Some people enjoy aiming and doing headshots. Some people enjoy aoe. You have the choice and no ones stopping you. You dont need to feel guilty if you can't aim, but you have the freedom to practice. 

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6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

And how exactly would you buff single-target weapons without turning them into a pseudo AoE in order to compete with AoE?

New Arcane that does "While you have any single-target gun equipped, enemies are 100% frozen in time, enjoying killing thousands of them one by one."

It would be garbage gameplay but it would satisfy your conditions.

Wait I thought of a better one. "Single-target weapon kills award Kuva instead of Affinity."

That would be awesome, I would play the hell out of that.

Edited by Xylena_Lazarow
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31 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's not effort....you're just pressing a button and moving a reticle. 

There is a disproportionate effectiveness against hoards of enemies between shooting styles, trying to hide it with such a faulty understatement does not help the discussion.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And we're talking physics that will never change. Snipers don't complain that their rifles can't do the same damage as a drone strike. Gun owners don't complain that they can't have nukes in their garage. 

Some people enjoy aiming and doing headshots. Some people enjoy aoe. You have the choice and no ones stopping you. You dont need to feel guilty if you can't aim, but you have the freedom to practice. 

And the general topic is about how in warframe AoE outclasses single-target in the vast majority of the game. That's a balancing problem that your previous response was dismissing, citing the fact that you can compensate single-target deficiencies with melee and abilities. That's stating a granted obvious and missing the bigger point. Back to square one.

The idea of giving AoE powers to single-target weapons was proposed by another user and i never endorsed that, i too think that's an error. But assuming someone's aiming abilities to make a point seems maliciously out of topic, in the context of the combat style choice we are facing here. Argument that is between an excessively cheesy-peesy style on one side and an active combination of tactic and ability on the other side (like you rightfully outlined). Having such a disproportionate imbalance between the two makes a choice much less relevant for player engagement, and that's a problem that a videogame should resolve simply because games live on engagement.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

There is a disproportionate effectiveness against hoards of enemies between shooting styles, trying to hide it with such a faulty understatement does not help the discussion.

And the general topic is about how in warframe AoE outclasses single-target in the vast majority of the game. That's a balancing problem that your previous response was dismissing, citing the fact that you can compensate single-target deficiencies with melee and abilities. That's stating a granted obvious and missing the bigger point. Back to square one.

The idea of giving AoE powers to single-target weapons was proposed by another user and i never endorsed that, i too think that's an error. But assuming someone's aiming abilities to make a point seems maliciously out of topic, in the context of the combat style choice we are facing here. Argument that is between an excessively cheesy-peesy style on one side and an active combination of tactic and ability on the other side (like you rightfully outlined). Having such a disproportionate imbalance between the two makes a choice much less relevant for player engagement, and that's a problem that a videogame should resolve simply because games live on engagement.

 

 

They are resolving it by possibly adding self damage soon.

And there's nothing wrong with AOE and the perceived imbalance...the issue was people spamming it like crazy and ruining the fun for others in groups. This is why AOE was adjusted, with more adjustments on the way after they've observed and collected data. 

All of this stuff has already been discussed and outlined by the devs. Have you not heard about it? It was the devstream before last.

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7 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They are resolving it by possibly adding self damage soon.

And there's nothing wrong with AOE and the perceived imbalance...the issue was people spamming it like crazy and ruining the fun for others in groups. This is why AOE was adjusted, with more adjustments on the way after they've observed and collected data. 

All of this stuff has already been discussed and outlined by the devs. Have you not heard about it? It was the devstream before last.

Heard the news. Everything still seems in a hypothesis state. Reason for keeping the discussion open and give feedback leaning toward its implementation. 

And the point is that there is something wrong in imbalance beside ruining the fun for others with AoE spam. Issue has been discussed by other important game developers in the past: give players a dull but more efficient way of progression and they will abuse it, whether or not less profitable strategies are more engaging and close to the intended gameplay. Ultimately the dull solution will erode the fun of out the game and ruin its future experience. You, as a sigle player, may be smart enough and avoid the problem by playing eclectically but the general audience is not and will fall in the trap. That's where it's a developer's duty to intervene for the general healt of its own game and of the player base

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vor 20 Stunden schrieb IfritKajiTora:

The main reason why AoE weapons are better than others, is the range of damage.
Range should be reduced, add % damage scale with the distance from where the explosive bullet/arrow hit. So you would be forced to aim as close to enemies you want to kill as possible.

The same goes with Glaive Prime and other throwing weapons. I would like to use melee weapons but they are useless when you compare them to glaive prime throw build.
You throw it, it hits the enemy causing explosion adding guaranted slash status, and then you quickly detonate glaive by pressing charge attack which also add guaranted slash status and that makes throwing weapons double powerfull. Range and also add % damage scale with the distance.

That way AoE weapons will be not an ultimate choice over other non AoE weapons since their damage will scale with distance beetwen enemies and center of explosion and also reduced range forcing players to make better aim at enemies, instead of blindly shooting and dealing high damage to all enemies in range.

there used to be a lot of news that they dodn't care about balance at all...
actually it would be better to just delete all AOE weapons. because they aren't playable and then new players won't be frustrated and won't ask themselves what the point of this nonsense is!

because every mele weapon has EXTREMELY much better performance than something like that. AND! there are mele weapons with AOE!!!!!!
so much for that!!!!!!!!

once again!!!!! mele weapon with UNLIMTED AMMO and high AOE range!!!!!!!!! and almost same damage!!!!!!!!

people............ I am speechless.

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