Idea: a solution for non-AoE weapons

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

Warframe has a strong AoE meta. Despite recent ammo nerfs, AoE remains the most effective approach in every mission.

Single target, non-AoE weapons are mostly (with some specific boss interactions aside) useless.

Full auto weapons are particularly hurt by damage attenuation - they rely on lots of hits, but caps on the number or procs (for enemies like Acolytes, Liches and Sisters) make these guns useless.

Semi weapons can still hit those tougher enemies, but then SP missions and the like have loads of enemies, your AoE toting teammates are going to wipe out tilesets while you pick off heads one at a time.

So, a proposed fix: combo counters for guns

- AoE weapons don't get it

- Auto weapons get a small buff, semi a larger buff (scaling inverse with fire rate), and charged/bow weapons the biggest buff (depending on mode, so the Tenora's charge shot would scale much faster than it's bullet hose)

- This works like Naramon melee, not snipers... missing a shot doesn't end it, it times out instead.

- Also unlike snipers the timeout should be fairly long - more than reload, long enough for another group of enemies to spawn.

- from 2x on up all guns get innate punch through, scaling with counter.

- combo counter scales headshot damage ÷4 (so 3x additional applied at 12x combo after all other buffs).

- new mods that extend combo timeout, stack crit, stack status, stack ammo efficiency (at 12x the Gorgon never runs out), stack reload, etc.

- primaries get a bigger buff than secondaries, as they need more help here.

This would create a secondary activity to keep track of while mashing enemies, improving gameplay, while also giving non-AoE weapons a significant boost. Want to kill the room in one shot? AoE. Want to build up damage to crazy numbers? Combo counter.

 

 

[AntifreezeUnder0]

And even with all theese changes aoe be better.

Because normal starchart is a desert where enemy spawn is scarce enough to more weapons be usable for casual play.

Steelpath with more enemies and even then often its too less is better, but aoe will take upper hand any given day.

Unless you use macro/aimbot to 1 shot 20 enemies in 1 second aoe who does that 1 to few shots will be better.

Punch through would be nice, but then again unless enemies are in straight line while you bother to kill 1 rest of 99 attack you. AoE just puts dmg in general direction and in certain area the smaller radial attacks outshines any single target wep in terms of kill speed.

I do like to have some AoE tweeked more, but then again only reasonable way to tweek aoe is reduce its radial attack range. Pretty much with all mods packed explosion radius dont exceed 6m or make it like stug`s. And even then AoE would be best at killing hordes , just require enemies grouped. Since AoE= best option to kill groups. While single target weps are great to kill 1 by 1. 

Or simply make nodes where natural enemy spawn lvl is high enough that aoe arent as effective killing enemies but then you are left in situation where there are 40 enemies who can 1 shot you, and you just can kill them 1 by one, making overall missions slower, loot drops are less and viable loadout options be it frames or weapons limited to select few, which opens gates of nerf since those would be the ones only capable of dealing situation and other options wouldnt come near.

 

 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

In a lot of ways, we already have the Combo Counter mechanic

galvanized mods and arcanes that stack up with kills

 

I suppose it'd be nice if there was a Primary version of Cascadia Flare (buffs on heat procs) Its the closest thing to the Melee Combo counter, in that it doesn't require kills, but instead ramps up the more you hit.

[Tyreaus]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Want to kill the room in one shot? AoE. Want to build up damage to crazy numbers? Combo counter.

This is the problem with this idea: it doesn't change where we use things. More power means we have an easier time in, say, Disruption, but we're still using AoE in Survival, Defense, Exterminate...pretty much everywhere we currently use AoE. Consider that we have snipers, especially snipers like Vectis that—with the sniper reload arcane, Primed Chamber, and shot counter—can get a pretty good DPS. Yet, even with that damage, they suffer just like every other precision weapon.

If we want to make a difference, we'd sooner be looking at, for examples, buffing Gas for single-target weapons / for headshots, or giving enemies things like explosive backpacks triggered by direct damage that can distribute that damage in an AoE. Tie an AoE feature to a precision requirement of some sort.

Or we bite the bullet and nerf the damage on AoE weapons, ideally something like a hard, EHP-based cap against heavy targets only. Something so it takes a few shots against heavy targets: doable, but just takes a little more time to trade off the ease of use. _{And probably give them reasonable ammo back, since the drawback is then DPS against particular targets.} They're meant to clear weaker enemies, and heavy units aren't those.

EDIT: If you want to make the above nerf more interesting, make it so that AoE weapons "gate" against the Parazon threshold. That means hitting an enemy with an AoE, even at low levels, can open said enemy up to a Parazon finisher in one blow, and—chances are—finish them in the second. Gives AoE a niche in triggering Parazon finishers, eh?

[AntifreezeUnder0]

43 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

This is the problem with this idea: it doesn't change where we use things. More power means we have an easier time in, say, Disruption, but we're still using AoE in Survival, Defense, Exterminate...pretty much everywhere we currently use AoE. Consider that we have snipers, especially snipers like Vectis that—with the sniper reload arcane, Primed Chamber, and shot counter—can get a pretty good DPS. Yet, even with that damage, they suffer just like every other precision weapon.

If we want to make a difference, we'd sooner be looking at, for examples, buffing Gas for single-target weapons / for headshots, or giving enemies things like explosive backpacks triggered by direct damage that can distribute that damage in an AoE. Tie an AoE feature to a precision requirement of some sort.

Or we bite the bullet and nerf the damage on AoE weapons, ideally something like a hard, EHP-based cap against heavy targets only. Something so it takes a few shots against heavy targets: doable, but just takes a little more time to trade off the ease of use. _{And probably give them reasonable ammo back, since the drawback is then DPS against particular targets.} They're meant to clear weaker enemies, and heavy units aren't those.

EDIT: If you want to make the above nerf more interesting, make it so that AoE weapons "gate" against the Parazon threshold. That means hitting an enemy with an AoE, even at low levels, can open said enemy up to a Parazon finisher in one blow, and—chances are—finish them in the second. Gives AoE a niche in triggering Parazon finishers, eh?

Well only way to fix single target is to add aoe / radial attacks, which would result in nerf of those  single target wep dmg  and facing same headshot multiplier loss what aoe has now. 

Sad part is that game is at point that even sp enemies are not that hard. Even eximuses simply often means 1 extra shot needed to them.

I would say its too late to change something that would lead to good outcome. 

In the end player wants mostly 3 things- his loadout to feel op, get loot and many kills leading to that loot. Or just play solo... in co-op game , since thats is best way to enjoy loadout. 

Or introduce more missions where using specific weapons is beneficial. Rather than missions be do goals asap and just extract. Be it rescue, capture, boss fight.

 

[Xaero]

And what does it solve? Damage was never a problem in both cases. The real problem is WHAT we fight. Hordes of weak enemies most of the time.

9 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Well only way to fix single target is to add aoe / radial attacks

How about rebalancing enemies instead? Making them fewer in numbers yet tougher. Close to what we have in Orb Vallis. Maybe leave out infested since horde aspect suit them well.

[gamingchair1121]

13 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Well only way to fix single target is to add aoe / radial attacks

actually no, I have a half baked idea where if you get headshot kills the mission progresses faster and you get more rewards, like counting for multiple kills and even more based on overkill damage in exterminate or boosted life support drop chance in survival. after the objective is completed, any further headshot kills boost the rewards of the mission.

could even lead to a sniper meta lol

[Tyreaus]

Just now, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Well only way to fix single target is to add aoe / radial attacks, which would result in nerf of those  single target wep dmg  and facing same headshot multiplier loss what aoe has now. 

It depends a bit. A factor in balance is ease of use / skill. There's a difference between nuking the floor and blowing up a room of enemies and hitting a precision headshot to do the same. Plus AoE components are separate, so there's not a lot of reason for precision weapons to have lower direct damage when the AoE part can just be set at a good level. Traditional AoE weapons already cover that "low direct damage, high AoE damage" approach. Nevermind that "balance" in Warframe is more of a suggestion than a hard rule: as long as things are approximately balanced, it's close enough.

14 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

I would say its too late to change something that would lead to good outcome. 

I don't think so. I don't agree with the AoE changes, but the fact DE implemented those changes and the game hasn't imploded overnight gives hope that it's possible to make and survive effective alterations. It makes a bit of a storm to weather, but it can be weathered.

4 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Or introduce more missions where using specific weapons is beneficial. Rather than missions be do goals asap and just extract. Be it rescue, capture, boss fight.

There have been a number of threads by people with physical disabilities talking about how AoE nerfs impacted their ability to play. Emphasize specific weapons too much—like about how much it'd take to make a difference—and it really gives them the short end of the stick. Can't say I'm a huge fan of that idea.

Besides, it's not easy to make an impact with missions. At minimum, you need some sort of evergreen reward to keep people from just abandoning it. Otherwise, all it does is give a little extra weight toward that kind of mission for Fissure selection. (Except there's more than enough fissures for players to just skip it over, anyway.)

[CosoMalvadoNG]

I only use normal weapons and I don't have any problem...

[Vahenir]

How to solve the AoE meta:

Step 1: Reduce enemy spawns by a ludicrous amount so you never really face more than 2 or 3 at a time.
Step 2: Buff enemies a lot

You have now solved the AoE meta. Single target weapons will be a lot better in missions like that. Is it worth it however? It'd turn the game incredibly boring in my opinion.

As long as the game requires us to kill hordes of enemies AoE will always be better as long as it can actually kill enemies.

[Tyreaus]

21 hours ago, Vahenir said:

It'd turn the game incredibly boring in my opinion.

Not all the eggs have to go in the one basket. We can lower numbers of Grineer—who are already tanky—keep Corpus the same, and boost numbers for Infested. Or do it by planets, mission types, modifiers (nightmare mode, Steel Path), etc. The game has multiple Warframe metas for mission types, why not weapon metas, too?

[Frendh]

On 2022-12-25 at 2:37 AM, Vahenir said:

How to solve the AoE meta:

Step 1: Reduce enemy spawns by a ludicrous amount so you never really face more than 2 or 3 at a time.

 

Horrible idea. Warframe is and has always been a horde shooter since it went public.

On 2022-12-24 at 5:56 AM, Tyreaus said:

If we want to make a difference, we'd sooner be looking at, for examples, buffing Gas for single-target weapons / for headshots, or giving enemies things like explosive backpacks triggered by direct damage that can distribute that damage in an AoE. Tie an AoE feature to a precision requirement of some sort.

No. Single target weapons should remain single target weapons. There is a weapon variation and don't go something utterly boring as streamlining all weapons to be the "same" thing. Other than punch through there should not be any common AoE effect for dealing with larger groups of enemies with single target weapons.

Adding a backpack gimmick is fine. As long as it is a rare occurrence and not something you rely on to deal with groups of enemies.

 

Single target weapons should shine at dealing single target damage. Nothing else. Which is often not true at the moment.  I think I would like the damage order to be Snipers at the top then semi auto, full auto.  But having semi auto or maybe full auto to be the most ammo efficient weapon type of the three and Snipers the least efficient.

[Vahenir]

11 hours ago, Frendh said:

Horrible idea. Warframe is and has always been a horde shooter since it went public.

Oh i know and i just used it as an example. As long as the game requires us to kill hordes of enemies AoE will always be meta unless its nerfed so hard it becomes so weak its nearly pointless. If the game changes from killing hordes to much smaller spawns it just wouldn't be the same and that kind of cost to "fix" the AoE meta is way too high.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2022-12-24 at 2:17 AM, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Because normal starchart is a desert where enemy spawn is scarce enough to more weapons be usable for casual play

Honestly I think this is a big part of the problem - Grineer are supposed to be tanks, Infested should always have had 100x the spawns (the clue is in the name), and so on.

It's too late to revert towards that design now, but I think that's the idea with the Eximus overguard shields - create a few enemies that take more to damage.

On 2022-12-24 at 2:17 AM, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Punch through would be nice, but then again unless enemies are in straight line while you bother to kill 1 rest of 99 attack you

There are weapons where their AoE isn't terribly large, but their soft-body punch through has the same effect (Ignis, Arca Plasmor, Catchmoon, etc), letting you clear corridors (and we have a lot of those).

Full auto should be just as effective here, just look at the Phenmor's Incarnon mode with the 2000% damage evolution (the only one that anyone ever picks), it can clear corridors just fine.

But then old bullet hoses (Gorgon, Tenora, Supra, etc) are pretty useless for anything except proc stacking, even with Galvanised mods they just can't do enough damage to clear areas, they just burn down one enemy instead. They should mow down a room, and more punch through helps with that.

I think semi weapons need a much bigger damage boost, as even infinite punch through doesn't save weapons like the Velocitus, they need to be the max damage instead.

On 2022-12-24 at 3:01 AM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

In a lot of ways, we already have the Combo Counter mechanic

galvanized mods and arcanes that stack up with kills

Only as AoE weapons can use them already they boost the meta Bramma just as much as anything else.

On 2022-12-26 at 12:41 PM, Frendh said:

On 2022-12-25 at 1:37 AM, Vahenir said:

How to solve the AoE meta:

Step 1: Reduce enemy spawns by a ludicrous amount so you never really face more than 2 or 3 at a time.

 

Horrible idea. Warframe is and has always been a horde shooter since it went public

I agree. We need more spawns, not fewer. This is a hoard shooter, the enemies are far too dumb for it to become Metal Gear Solid.

On 2022-12-24 at 6:30 AM, CosoMalvadoNG said:

I only use normal weapons and I don't have any problem

Then you're much slower than me at whatever content. Nowt wrong with that, you do you, the game needs some folks who ignore the meta.

For the rest of us the fixed meta is getting tedious and needs a shake up.

On 2022-12-24 at 5:48 AM, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Or introduce more missions where using specific weapons is beneficial

Arbitrations have done this for years. It doesn't work - the buff just isn't enough to make it worth digging out some (probably un-forma'd) semi gun over whatever AoE is meta.

On 2022-12-27 at 12:31 AM, Vahenir said:

If the game changes from killing hordes to much smaller spawns ...

I think this is where Eximus come in - they haven't worked right, but could. They need to be more vulnerable to CC (bring back CC frames) but maybe immune to AoE (or just take much less damaged from it while overshielded). Semi weapons become your punch out Eximus tool.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Arbitrations have done this for years. It doesn't work - the buff just isn't enough to make it worth digging out some (probably un-forma'd) semi gun over whatever AoE is meta.

Well i was more inclined it be like Conditional where weapon type is needed to use. Like primary, secondary or bow or rifle and so on.

But even that is an issue since AoE is great overall.

And now we beeing able to armor strip left and right its even more better.

And for 300% dmg bonus they should realise that 300% flat dmg is nothing. 

It add 300% dmg, flat crit chance, crit dmg, status or some elemental dmg or be it 100% of all before mentioned stats. Now that could open room for something. But even then it be locked behind specific mission...

[Kaichi16]

IMO it's too late to "fix" it.

either, DE create a new game mode where single target weapons are relevant, or just keep releasing AoE and call it a day. 

On 2022-12-24 at 10:37 PM, Vahenir said:

Step 1: Reduce enemy spawns by a ludicrous amount so you never really face more than 2 or 3 at a time.
Step 2: Buff enemies a lot

IMO this would only make fights take longer, it wouldnt be fun and would slow the whole progress of any mission. maybe buff enemy AI instead? so that we actually have to aim, like nullifier bubble have their weak spot.

On 2022-12-25 at 7:54 PM, Tyreaus said:

Not all the eggs have to go in the one basket. We can lower numbers of Grineer—who are already tanky—keep Corpus the same, and boost numbers for Infested.

this is how it should be, right... not sure if DE can program something like that, as warframe has this spaghetti code, any fix will break other ten stuff.

 

we have to think about the strengths of each weapon type.

AoE is good to deal with hordes

Single target is good at precision kills and dealing with stronger single enemies

warframe current content is 99% deal with hordes so OBVIOUSLY AoE is the best option. Single target isnt unusable, but AoE is superior in most content.

we have eidolon hunts where single target can still be superior, i guess (even tho most people just use voidrig's arquebex to deal with it)

why AI improvement would be good: 

1. imagine, grineer would notice you're using AoE weapons and use some tankier melee unit, so you'd have to use a single target to deal with it and continue to kill other hordes. 

2. corpus is a great example, even if the AI is the same braindead, thanks to nullifiers. they can protect allies and their shield has a weak spot which can be easier hit if you use single target weapons. or if you risk yourself entering the bubble and melee it to death.

3. weirdly, infested are the best designed enemies. melee infested spit at you if you're out of their range, ancients buff their allies and are major targets to be disposed. in deimos, we have infested that enter the ground, that can slow you, that throw other infested enemies at you... sadly, the best infested units are stuck in deimos... while ancient disruptors (which are good units but their mechanic is terrible implemented [at some level, ANY hit from any enemy buffed by disruptors will fully drain your energy. it makes most frames that need energy to work be mostly unusable in such missions]) are everywhere. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

On 2022-12-28 at 12:36 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Then you're much slower than me at whatever content. Nowt wrong with that, you do you, the game needs some folks who ignore the meta.

I do all the content, easy and without any problem, I also usually kill much more than players with their AOE, although personally I don't care much about numbers as long as I have fun. I have always thought that the healthiest META is one of the Warframes to be the focus just like right now but I think it's missing a bit.

PS: I THINK THEY SHOULD NERF THE AOE WEAPONS MORE.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

8 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Then you're much slower than me at whatever content. Nowt wrong with that, you do you, the game needs some folks who ignore the meta.

... personally I don't care much about numbers as long as I have fun

Exactly. Personally I like playing with lots of weapons and changing it up to see what I can make work. I have all the meta weapons maxed out, but I also have every other weapon and rivens for loads of them, I really want to make them all work.

But they don't. I have 7-9 forma in some of these guns. I have god rolled 5pt dispo rivens for some of them. It doesn't matter, I can take them into Steel Path and survive, but the player that brought the AoE is going to have 3x-5x my gun kills.

For me, personally, it feels like: play with these few weapons, or play the same content slower, and either leads to burnout.

Maybe I've just been playing this game too long.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

4 hours ago, Kaichi16 said:

AoE is good to deal with hordes

Single target is good at precision kills and dealing with stronger single enemies

I think the core problem relates to this. Unless you're vastly under leveled a headshot should always be a one-shot kill. It isn't. I can empty a Tenora (7 forma, riven, etc) clip into an Eximus head and it still do nothing. I can snap off a Sepulcrum (also loads of forma) big punchy head shot and an Eximus shrug it off.

Or, I can shoot 3 Eximus with a Bramma and they're all broken overshields and the next shot will kill them.

If a careless Bramma shot can hit 12x enemies, then a single target body shot should do 12x damage and a headshot 24x-48x the damage.

The current 3x headshot is basically worthless.

 

[(NSW)warfare3376]

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

If a careless Bramma shot can hit 12x enemies, then a single target body shot should do 12x damage and a headshot 24x-48x the damage.

Damage per second doesnt matter in warframe, what matters is kills per second. If all that matters was having very high damage numbers stuff like kuva hek and rubico would be meta however thats simply not the case, if you deal 1 billion damage to a single enemy then youre still only killing one single enemy at a time. The way the game is now AoE and single target can never be balanced with buffs or nerfs, its the gameplay that has led to AoE becoming so dominate so unless the gameplay changes in some way AoE will remain meta.

[Tiltskillet]

51 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Unless you're vastly under leveled a headshot should always be a one-shot kill. It isn't. I can empty a Tenora (7 forma, riven, etc) clip into an Eximus head and it still do nothing.

There's not much point to vulkar or grinlok if tenora can 1hk most things with a headshot.

(Also.. what level is that eximus you just emptied a clip full of riven'd tenora headshots and did nothing?)

 

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

23 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Unless you're vastly under leveled a headshot should always be a one-shot kill. It isn't. I can empty a Tenora (7 forma, riven, etc) clip into an Eximus head and it still do nothing.

There's not much point to vulkar or grinlok if tenora can 1hk most things with a headshot

I agree, that's why semi would get much more damage mult and any scaling would be inverse with fire rate.

A Grinlock can hit one enemy, it should be headshot = death.

The Tenora can hit loads of enemies, yet can't match an AoE because it does such weak damage. You can get 1-3 tiny Slash procs against a room full of enemies, but such low damage you might as well as throw bees at them. It needs to do loads more.

28 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

(Also.. what level is that eximus you just emptied a clip full of riven'd tenora headshots and did nothing?)

OK, maybe a slight exaggeration (Tenora has a large clip) but multiple seconds trained on one enemy's head. It does 24 damage base, even with a red crit guarantee riven it's only doing triple digit damage to enemies with many thousands of EHP.

Any of the bullet hose weapons sprayed down a corridor should have a similar effect to an Ignis being fired for 1s or so or Arca Plasmor being fired once.

[Vahenir]

13 hours ago, Kaichi16 said:

IMO this would only make fights take longer, it wouldnt be fun and would slow the whole progress of any mission. maybe buff enemy AI instead? so that we actually have to aim, like nullifier bubble have their weak spot.

You don't have to aim much with nullifiers, just bring literally anything with high rate of fire and the bubbles will go away. In either case AI buffs will be irrelevant as long as we can vaporize them so fast they can't move. Another major problem is that the range between mission levels is ridiculously huge. 

Like at normal starchart levels you can basically sneeze in the general direction of the enemies and they will fall over while steel path makes them durable to a point where viral/slash becomes way more important. Even with careful balancing of the weapons it will leave any weapon that isn't absolute trash at steel path to be able to cut through anything below that like a plasma cutter through butter.

Can this even be solved? Should it be? Sure you can add nullifier-esque enemies with bubble shields to all factions but people already avoid fighting corpus because of nullifiers being annoying. But it would reduce the effectiveness of most big AoE weapons by a lot in favor of high fire rate stuff or melee. 

Stick damage attenuation on everything? Please don't, its a terrible mechanic in its current state.

Rebalance everything? Sure, but its likely that one end of the difficulty scale will get the short stick. People that like the game to be hard will be disappointed if the balance point is set so that everyone can do everything. And those that want it to be easy will be left out if the game becomes too hard.

Maybe introduce difficulty settings? Then people could set things to how hard or easy they prefer. But on the flipside it'd be a nightmare for matchmaking and people would, of course, demand better/exclusive rewards at harder settings. 

[Kaichi16]

7 hours ago, Vahenir said:

You don't have to aim much with nullifiers, just bring literally anything with high rate of fire and the bubbles will go away. In either case AI buffs will be irrelevant as long as we can vaporize them so fast they can't move. Another major problem is that the range between mission levels is ridiculously huge. 

okay, still, the weakspot exists and it's a nice mechanic. you dont have to aim, but there is the option to aim and it's faster even if nobody cares.

7 hours ago, Vahenir said:

Maybe introduce difficulty settings? Then people could set things to how hard or easy they prefer. But on the flipside it'd be a nightmare for matchmaking and people would, of course, demand better/exclusive rewards at harder settings. 

how? all "difficulty" DE know is "makes numbers go big". as far as i understand, difficulty should be something that tests your skills... in warframe, you literally do the same thing everywhere. 

"oh but people can do level cap missions" yes, abusing shieldgating, which's the only survivability tool that works past some lvl. wow, such skills.

7 hours ago, Vahenir said:

Can this even be solved? Should it be? Sure you can add nullifier-esque enemies with bubble shields to all factions but people already avoid fighting corpus because of nullifiers being annoying. But it would reduce the effectiveness of most big AoE weapons by a lot in favor of high fire rate stuff or melee. 

not every faction needs nullifiers. i just used it as an example of an interesting enemy which can protect their allies (or would, if AI wasnt dumb as a door). other factions could have their own priority targets. 

yes, it should be solved. otherwise we'll continue to have nerfs and nerfs to things that didn't really need and the same kind of content being released that encourages the use of such nerfed tools.

[Tyreaus]

On 2022-12-26 at 4:41 AM, Frendh said:

Single target weapons should shine at dealing single target damage. Nothing else. Which is often not true at the moment.

The issue is that the damage numbers are, surprisingly often, not necessary. Of course, I agree with single-target weapons dealing more damage. Balance 101. It's just that, in the current environment, we already have a few extra zeroes on our damage numbers, so tacking on a few more won't make a practical difference. If we want to make a practical difference, we'd have to look at alternate angles. Maybe not Gas, but even things like explosive backpacks on enemies, or varying spawn rates and EHP expectations, or giving low ROF single-target weapons (like snipers) a larger hitbox ala the Nataruk. Maybe with fall-off to continue emphasizing precision damage, especially at higher levels.

On 2022-12-28 at 9:42 AM, Kaichi16 said:

this is how it should be, right... not sure if DE can program something like that, as warframe has this spaghetti code, any fix will break other ten stuff.

I think this gives DE too little credit. They've done more massive overhauls than spawn rates in the past. Heck, consider Steel Path is an entire thing: it's clear they're able to vary spawn rates, and fix whatever ended up breaking from it. They'd just need to draw lines between factions. _{Which I get the feeling they already do: it does seem Infested have slightly higher spawn rates than Grineer or Corpus...}